We must be honest - there ARE Democrats trying to take people's guns away

[derby378]

I'm speaking as a progressive Democrat, an anti-war activist, and a grassroots advocate for responsible, law-abiding American citizens who own guns.

Most Democrats don't want to take away anyone's guns - they just want gun laws that are rooted in something akin to common sense. And who can blame them? There are far too many deaths in America as a result of gun-related violence.

So here's how you combat gun crime in America. Divert our tax dollars away from the quagmire in Iraq and back into our overburdened public school system. Give our children textbooks that are up-to-date, factual, and easy to use. Mandate that no child will be leave the fifth grade unless she is able to pass a basic algebra test. Shore up our liberal arts programs so that your little girl's mental sky will be populated with influences like Shakespeare, Thelonious Monk, Prokofiev, Mark Twain, and Martin Luther King, Jr. At least one working planetarium for every school district. No more "teaching to the test;" give kids the critical thinking skills they need to master any exam.

This recurrent bullshit about trying to take guns away from law-abiding citizens is a farce that I no longer find amusing. Especially with the November 2006 elections looming. There is simply way too much at stake.

[rurallib]

1. And another bit of truth - there are Republicans stealing the

treasury blind and giving it to their friends and leaving the bill for our grandchildren.

[liberal N proud]

2. Lets face it, There are republicans that are taking our civil liberties

away.

Owning guns is just one, Freedom of speech is another as well as the right to privacy.

[derby378]

3. Something else that's being stolen - the dignity of New Orleans citizens

I'm watching Spike Lee's documentary on HBO, and it broke my heart all over again.

We had all the money and infrastructure needed to rebuild New Orleans and possibly even shore up the levees so that they didn't give in the first place. And what did the Bush administration do with all this money and manpower? Dump it in the black hole known as Iraq, along with the bodies of our finest soldiers.

[snowbear]

4. H. Dean endorsed by NRA 8 times... K. Mehlman endorsed by NRA -0- times...

Not that it's anything to brag about ... But it's a FACT.

Eight endorsements ----->

Zero endorsements ------>

Quit worrying!

[derby378]

6. Ah, but that's easy - Ken Mehlman is a certified idiot

Howard, on the other hand, is my main man. He's the main reason I became a Democratic activist.

[DavidDvorkin]

5. They have my support

[rooboy]

7. In Saddam's Iraq, everybody had guns...

but they still had a dictatorship. The idea that firearms guarantee freedom is fallacious.

[derby378]

8. True, firearms ALONE won't guarantee freedom...

I rather liked how the Bill of Rights tried to cover all the bases. Without a free press, protection from wiretaps, the right to a jury trial, and the freedom to speak your mind, a pistol by itself won't get you very far.

[Irreverend IX]

13. Are you sure about that?

Most of the available evidence indicates that during most of his rule, Saddam only gave guns to Ba'ath party members and loyal tribal leaders. It was only when Bush began to dispatch large numbers of troops to the Persian Gulf in 2002-03 when Saddam saw the writing on the wall and began the widespread distribution of AK-47s. My source is here:

http://www.journalscape.com/derekjames/2003-04-09-10:40

It's a compilation of Internet sources on Iraqi gun ownership, which are unfortunately rather sparse. But honestly, considering the animosity borne by the majority Shias toward the Sunni ruling class, do you think Iraq would have held together if the Shias could have outgunned Saddam's party?

[Redneck Socialist]

9. Very few. A tiny minority within the party

the pubs use them as poster children to keep gun owners scared and voting republican, but the actual number of Democratic officials proposing ridiculous gun legislation is minuscule.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

16. As, sadly, is the number of people proposing gun legislation of any kind.

From anywhere on the American political spectrum.

Speaking as a Brit, America's gun laws, or rather it's absence thereof, is one of the things that would most deter me from ever emigrating there.

I don't think the Democrats should be supporting decent gun control at present, sadly, because there's simply no electoral support for it, but I do think that if it were introduced it would be an excellent thing.

The sad fact seems to be that Americans would rather find it easier to shoot other people than be less at risk of being shot themselves. This is a point of view I find it hard to understand, to put it mildly.

[meldroc]

21. Funny you say that

since the crime rate in the U.S. has been declining for years, while crime in the U.K. has been skyrocketing.

[derby378]

23. True, but we still have a lot of room for improvement

[Donald Ian Rankin]

24. There are several obvious flaws in that as an argument.

The first is that, while I don't know about US crime rates, the crime rate here in the UK is actually not skyrocketing, it's falling, by most measures.

The second is that the least-meaningless comparison is between crime rates, not rates of change of crime rates, and that rates of most crimes are far lower here than in the US.

The third is that it when talking about gun control, the more relevant statistic is gun-related crimes, not all crimes, and the rate of those in Britain is even lowerer for those than the American than is the case for other sorts of crimes, suggesting that the reason we have fewer gun crimes is not just that we have fewer crimes in general, but also partly that we have fewer guns.

So I'm afraid your comparison fails on just about every front imaginable.

[derby378]

26. Hasn't there been a jump in murder rates in the UK?

I'm not talking about anything terrorism-related, but more traditional forms of murder.

[Redneck Socialist]

33. I wouldn't worry too much about guns if you seriously consider coming here

You can quite easily go your entire life without seeing one, other than on the telly. :P

You are far more likely to get run over than shot. It's not exactly downtown Baghdad or the wild west over here.

[beyurslf]

10. And there are Repub's and Dems who molest children.....Not sure it means

we all do.

[snowbear]

11. Wayyyyy more Rethugs in that category!

Way more!!

[beyurslf]

12. Maybe. I just wanted to point out that just because there are some who say

that....

[skids]

14. Define "trying."

I haven't seen much noise made by anyone about this subject in a year or so. Why bring it up? Let sleeping dogs lie until after November.

[auburngrad82]

15. And there ARE Republicans trying to take away the rest of your rights

Liberal bumper stickers

[liberalitch]

17. I tell every Republican I meet who makes that statement....

... that I just want THEIR gun taken away.
I too am a gun owner.

[LWolf]

18. As a public school teacher,

I certainly agree with your solution. That's a big part of the solution to most of our ills.

I don't really see the problem, though. I've honestly never of any movement to take guns away from law-abiding citizens. Where is this happening? I don't mind being upfront and saying I don't understand why people even want them to begin with, but as long as there are no bullets flying where they shouldn't be, I'm ok with them.

[leesa]

19. Why not turn the tables and expose the NRA as loving the 2nd amendment

because that's how they make $$$$$ selling guns. It has nothing to do with protecting rights. It's about making money selling guns and other armaments. It is the more right wing branch of a government, who are interested in tight control of a population, that are always more likely to take away your guns.

Why do Democrats let them control the message?

[derby378]

25. If you're talking about the ethics of selling guns...

...I know there are unscrupulous arms dealers who will gladly hand over their stockpiles to the highest bidder. This is part of the reason why Sierra Leone, Liberia, Cote d'Ivorie, Rwanda, Burundi, and Democratic Congo are in such a mess. I'd rather not do business with an arms dealer like the one portrayed in Lord of War.

In those nations I mention, often the only law is the law of the gun. But here in America, we have an actual Constitution that many of us are still trying to make sure our elected representatives obey.

[OzarkDem]

20. If only you cared as much about the uninsured in this country

The gun issue is a diversion. There are more serious issues facing this country.

Anyone who keeps this discussion going in this forum is being put on my list as a GOP disruptor.

[derby378]

22. You know what they say about assumptions...

If you assume that I don't care about the uninsured, that's your own lookout.

I actually do. There's a lot of children down here in Texas that have been stripped of their state health insurance in the name of budget cuts. A few years ago, our state was $10 billion in debt and desperately looking for ways to balance our books, and our children's health insurance was put on the chopping block. Now that the debt is easing, those kids deserve to have their coverage restored. I guarantee you, however, that Republicans won't restore it.

But Democrats will.

See? You and I are actually on the same side. I'm just doing my part to make sure Democrats get elected. You call the gun issue a diversion? I call it getting our asses in gear for November.

Now please take me off your list and let's work together to get something meaningful done about this government of ours.

[meldroc]

28. Why do you think I'm voting Democratic this fall?

As passionate as I may be about RKBA issues, I agree with you that other issues are more important at this time. Three years of unemployment has made me a flaming socialist when it comes to health care issues (thankfully, I have a good job and insurance now, but lots of people don't.) And don't even get me started on * or the war in Iraq...

[semillama]

27. I ask out of pure curiousity

Exactly who are these Democrats wanting to take the right to own guns away from the people? I assume by using the capital "D" Democrats, you are referring to elected officials. If so, I'd like to know who these well-intentioned but misguided folks are. Without knowing who you are taking about, it sounds too much like a "straw man" argument, which I'm sure wasn't your intent.

Unless you are actually referring to small "d" democrats, such as populate this board; in which case, it would probably be a waste of your time typing out usernames...

[derby378]

29. I can name a few

Sen. Dianne Feinstein on 60 Minutes, 12/5/95:

If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban <on various semi-automatic firearms>, picking up every one of them, "Mr. and Mrs. America, turn them all in," I would have done it. I could not do it. The votes weren't there.

Congressman Pete Stark (D-CA) tried to pass similar legislation in 1989, calling for the confiscation of semi-automatics from every American unless they paid $200 for every gun to the Treasury Department and submitted to an extensive security check - which is what you have to do in America if you wish to own a full-automatic firearm.

On the other hand, however, there are many fine Democratic candidates who have stated that they will not interfere with our Second Amendment rights, including Carl Sheeler of Rhode Island and Jack Carter of Nevada. The position espoused by Stark and Feinstein isn't exactly monolithic within the Democratic Party.

[meldroc]

31. True, there are lots of pro-gun Democrats, and anti-gun Republicans

Off the top of my head, Howard Dean, Russ Feingold, and my local district's Democratic candidate Angie Paccione have publically come out in favor of gun rights.

There are some gun-grabbing Republicans. They don't get much traction because the Republicans are pretty much in bed with the NRA, but Bush himself stated he would have signed an assault-weapons ban if it came across his desk.

I'm trying to think of other Republicans who've been pushing for gun control.

[davepc]

32. William Bennett, Sarah Brady, Ronald Regan....

the guy whos currently head of the Brady Campaign, Paul Helmke, is a Republican.

[meldroc]

38. Sarah Brady? Wow...

Even though I remember that Jim Brady was Reagan's press secretary before Hinckley shot him, it didn't really occur to me that the Wicked Witch of Gun Control herself was a dyed-in-the-wool Republican...

[Redneck Socialist]

34. Guiliani and Bloomberg to name a couple more. n/t

[semillama]

35. cool, thanks. Figures one of 'em was Feinstein. eom

[Stinky The Clown]

30. I'm in the 'take away all guns' camp

I see no use for them at all. I would have every gun in America rounded up and melted down for scrap. Every damned one of them.

That's said with my heart. My head is in a whole other place. Guns likely will never be banned in my lifetime. I accept that and can, in fact live with it without saying a word. Consider my view about gun control the same as what we *all* want religion to be - a private matter that I choose not to inflict on anyone.

My reasoned view is that I would like to see the issue of gun control be made as local an issue as might be allowed by the Constitution. Gun laws in a large city should reightly be quite different than in a suburban area than in rural area. Further, if the citizens of one state *choose* to institute some specific gun law, there's no need to impose it on every other state.

I usually don't engage in the DU gun threads, but wanted to weigh in on this one to say that 'yes, there are Dems who want take away guns'. But that's not to say all of us will actually try to do it. I for one, will not. In this day and time, we have much more imporatnt issues before us and we have almost no widespread support for gun bans. Just for sensible gun laws.

[JRob]

36. I fear that the Republicans, with solidified control would move to collect

guns before Dem's. After all who is the "fuck your rights" crowd? I tell all Repub's who push this subject this belief.

The Dem's need to re-frame national perception on this issue and it will deliver.

[derby378]

37. I heartily agree

That's one reason I don't use the term "assault weapon" any more than I have to - it's Josh Sugarmann's personal framing tool, and it still doesn't have a clear definition as far as I've been able to figure out.