Jim Webb campaign at a Gun Show...Dean's strategy in action...

[SaveElmer]

Another manifestation of Dean's 50-state strategy of leaving no stone unturned in disseminating the Democratic message...




http://www.raisingkaine.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=4030

[Beelzebud]

1. Notice that the DC Cocktail Party Circuit has grown quiet about Dean.

They really shut their mouths when Dean's strategy started to show signs of actually working.

Imagine that... If you show middle America you care about them, they'll vote for you! Whodathunkit?

[sandnsea]

2. As a sheriff's deputy lies dead in Virginia

and the gun show loophole has not been closed in the state. I don't think this is what Howard Dean had in mind and I wouldn't support it if he did. Responsible gun owners don't have a problem with reasonable gun regulation and I've seen it from DU gun owners time and again. Most people in this country, and even the south, do not even own a gun; and the majority of those that do, support closing the gun show loophole. Webb shouldn't be there unless he's advocating that position.

[boolean]

6. HA HA

You should go to the Gun forum. Prepare for many responsible gun owners who have a problem with reasonable gun regulation. Bring it up and prepare to be flamed.

[sandnsea]

8. I have

Most DUers, most gun owners in the country, support reasonable gun regulation. Those who interpret the 2nd Amendment to be a gun free for all are very very few in number. It's stupid to pander to them and I've got no respect for any Democrat who does it.

[fuzzyball]

84. I am with you on guns, Sandnsea....because any responsible

gun owner does not mind registration & regulation such
as proper training in the use of guns. Criminals found in
possession of unregistered guns can then be separated from
the law abiding folks and thrown in jail for 10 years or so.

[Redneck Socialist]

90. Registration doesn't strike many as "reasonable." n/t

[unpossibles]

11. eh, I am a responsible owner who has no problem with

reasonable gun regulation at all.

[sendero]

13. It all comes down to..

.. what is defined as "reasonable", doesn't it?

[sandnsea]

16. And that should be the debate

If Webb is furthering that debate, great. If he's perpetuating Democrats as "gun grabbers", then he's doing more harm than good.

[sendero]

18. I checked out ..

.... his official web site, and I can't find anything about the issue at all.

That is a mistake, he should come out with his position.

[Stinky The Clown]

21. Why?

[sendero]

22. There's not much point ..

... in campaiging at a gun show if you don't believe in gun rights. And if you don't state your position, those at the gun show are likely to assume the worst.

[SaveElmer]

7. These people's minds will never be changed...

Unless they are engaged. I don't know where Webb stands on this issue to tell you the truth, but that a Democrat even bothered to campaign at a Gun Show is a step in the right direction...

[sandnsea]

9. Their minds don't need to be changed

Their minds are fine, it's just that nobody is standing up and telling the truth about what Americans really think about gun regulation. If Webb is talking reasonably to them about the reality for the need for gun regulation, especially in Virginia, then fine. If he's not, then it isn't a step in the right direction at all. What's so ballsy about pandering to wackos??? Is HE going to speak at some Bob Jones type religious institute next??

[SaveElmer]

15. There are other issues...

Iraq comes to mind!

[napi21]

19. I'm pretty sure I've heard Dean talk about gun restrictions shoould

be area specific and NOT Federal! What makes sense for Newark, or NYC, doesn't make sense in rural parts of Mt, WY, and Idaho. I really agree with that. We have quite a few guns in our house, and we live in a small town in Ga. There are almost NO restrictions here, BUT just about10 miles away is a larger town where someone's always shooting another person because of a fight over something stupid! It THAT town, I think there should be some resstrictions.

The biggest reason most gunaffectionados fear the Dems is that they're afraid the restrictions will not stop at one or two, and that's been the fear for over 50 years that I'm aware of. I'd never been around guns until I met my husband IN 1959! His whole family were avid hunters. EVERYBODY in the relationship were hunters, including mother, both sisters, and all the Aunts, Uncles, and Cousins. EVERYONE of them supported the Pubs...yes, back in 1959, because "Them damn Dems want to take your guns away!" I didn't believe it then, and I still don't! I've managed over the years to convert my husband to a Dem. and the rest of the family is either too old, or have other interests now.

It really IS important to socialize with the gun lovers. Somehow they need to find out WE are not the enemy!!!!

[sandnsea]

20. Dean supports closing the gun show loophole

And that loophole is not closed in Virginia. So I don't think Howard Dean would show up at a gun show without telling the truth about what he believes. I don't know that Webb did that, so I'm not going to praise the guy if all he did was perpetuate the myth that Democrats are going to take your guns away. That's the whole point. The NRA created this whole bullshit mythology about gun grabbers when the truth is, most people support reasonable gun regulation. That's what Democrats need to be fighting.

And you can't have gun shows selling any gun in your town without knowing they will get to that town 10 miles away. If a state closes the gun show loophole, they close it for the whole state. Framing things correctly is a good portion of the battle too.

They wouldn't think we were the enemy if some of our own didn't perpetuate the myth.

[TheFarseer]

85. I seriously doubt

he went to the gun show to tell everyone there it should be shut down. What the hell kind of sense would that make?

[benEzra]

26. The gun-control lobby shot itself in the foot

by adopting nonsensical positions that have nothing to do with violent crime (exhibit A, fighting to ban modern-looking rifles and shotguns).

One does not need to be a "wacko" to see that legislating 19th-century-fogey stock styling and Civil-War-era capacity limits for civilian rifles is nonsensical.

Background checks for private sales - I am not a priori opposed, as long as it's done right. NC conducts background checks for private handgun sales, without much fuss. Perhaps such a system would be law in Virginia were the Bradyites not so much more concerned about the shape of civilian rifle stocks...

[sandnsea]

28. If you support closing the loophole

then advocate for it instead of blathering the right wing NRA talking points.

[benEzra]

35. OK, let's talk about it...

let's talk about ways to do so.

In NC, you get a background check run by your local CLEO and get a certificate that says you've passed; you then take that wherever you want and buy the gun. Costs $5. If you have a current, valid NC carry permit, that automatically shows you are clean, and no additional check is required.

I can think of some other simple ways to do it in Virginia, from an endorsement on your driver's license if you have a clean record, to a system like NC's, to a system where you can enter a driver's license number (without name, so identity thieves can't browse the system to match names and driver's license numbers) online or via a quick toll-free phone call and get a confirmation number that the DL# is clean. With safeguards to prevent the system from being abused (backdoor registration and accidentally-on-purpose system outages would be my biggest worry).

The problem as I see it is that the issue is simply not important enough to the Bradyites for them to shift focus from their ban-more-guns agenda to something like background checks. For nearly two decades, most of their political capital has been invested in the silly "assault weapon" bait-and-switch and similar hysterical spinoffs, which is aimed squarely at the law-abiding gun enthusiast (criminals don't generally use rifles). It should be no suprise that two decades of treating gun enthusiasts are The Enemy, with criminal gun misuse treated as merely a peripheral issue, makes gun owners rather skeptical of the gun-control proposal du jour.

As I said, I'm not a priori opposed to private-sale background checks. I *am* opposed to further restrictions on the right of the law-abiding to own non-automatic firearms under .51 caliber that meet the detailed requirements of the NFA, and to keep/carry guns for lawful self-defense, and that is NOT negotiable. Opposing the banning of half the guns in our gun safe, when my wife and I have never had so much as a speeding ticket between us, is hardly a "wacko right wing" position.

Dems and the Gun Issue - Now What?

[sandnsea]

40. Closing the gun show loophole has been a HUGE issue

So you're just doing exactly what I said, advocating the NRA right wing wacko myth because you're in the minority who wants a gun free for all. I don't want any Democrat pandering to you.

[benEzra]

51. If it was such a "HUGE" issue, then why

did the Bradyites devote their political capital to banning protruding rifle handgrips, instead of background checks? Their actions say that they considered background checks on private sales to be a minor issue, and protruding rifle handgrips a MAJOR issue.

From where I'm standing, it seems to me that YOU don't consider the background check issue nearly as important as the rifle handgrip ban, either, since you won't even talk about the private-sale background check issue that I addressed. Instead, you're calling me a "right wing wacko" for taking the position that protruding handgrips on civilian rifles shouldn't be outlawed.

How closely have you been following the gun issue at the national level since 1990 or so? After the Brady Bill was passed (mandatory waiting period, optional background check for handguns only), they essentially dropped the background check issue and devoted their effort to banning modern-looking civilian rifles.

So you're just doing exactly what I said, advocating the NRA right wing wacko myth because you're in the minority who wants a gun free for all.

A "gun free for all" would be a situation in which people were allowed to own whatever the hell kind of gun they want, with no restrictions or oversight. Automatic weapons, 12-gauge pistols, sawed-off shotguns, 14.5mm sniper rifles, M203's, silenced firearms, selective-fire AK-47's, Uzi submachineguns, flamethrowers, armor-piercing ammunition for handguns and rifles up to .308, guns easily converted to full auto, whatever. That is a straw-man position that is completely irrelevant to the gun issue as it stands in 2006, because everything I just mentioned is already tightly restricted under the Title 2/Class III provisions of the National Firearms Act of 1934 (which even the NRA supports), and the cop-killer bullet ban of 1986 (which the NRA helped write).

What *I* oppose, if you have bothered reading, is

--banning non-automatic, small-caliber civilian rifles with handgrips that stick out

--restricting civilian rifles and pistols to pre-Civil-War capacities

--blocking competent adults with squeaky-clean records from obtaining carry licenses, and instead restricting licenses to the wealthy and/or politically connected.

THAT is not a "gun free for all" by any stretch of the imagination.

[sandnsea]

53. You're trying to switch the debate to gun bans

and I'm not biting.

[benEzra]

57. Regarding background checks...

Most DUers, most gun owners in the country, support reasonable gun regulation. Those who interpret the 2nd Amendment to be a gun free for all are very very few in number. It's stupid to pander to them and I've got no respect for any Democrat who does it.

The bit about a "gun free for all" led me to believe that you were speaking of further restrictions on what guns the law-abiding are allowed to own, rather than background checks for purchase.

Let's bring it back to the background check issue. Here's what I said upthread:

Let's talk about ways to do so.

In NC, you get a background check run by your local CLEO and get a certificate that says you've passed; you then take that wherever you want and buy the gun. Costs $5. If you have a current, valid NC carry permit, that automatically shows you are clean, and no additional check is required.

I can think of some other simple ways to do it in Virginia, from an endorsement on your driver's license if you have a clean record, to a system like NC's, to a system where you can enter a driver's license number (without name, so identity thieves can't browse the system to match names and driver's license numbers) online or via a quick toll-free phone call and get a confirmation number that the DL# is clean. With safeguards to prevent the system from being abused (backdoor registration and accidentally-on-purpose system outages would be my biggest worry).

Thoughts?

[sandnsea]

62. Guess what, I don't care how

My point is only that every gun owner I've ever known is open to reasonable gun regulations. We don't have reasonable gun regulations because of NRA wackos and the gun grabber mythology. If Webb is helping to perpetuate that myth, he's only hurting the Dem Party in the long run and not likely doing anything to win over any gun extremists in the short run. If you'd vote for Webb, you're likely not a gun extremist, so stop repeating their talking points.

[benEzra]

81. The "gun grabber mythology" isn't perpetuated by those

My point is only that every gun owner I've ever known is open to reasonable gun regulations.

As am I.

If Webb is helping to perpetuate that myth, he's only hurting the Dem Party in the long run and not likely doing anything to win over any gun extremists in the short run. If you'd vote for Webb, you're likely not a gun extremist, so stop repeating their talking points.

Webb is one of those who is trying to dismantle that stereotype. In the current political climate, politicians who don't talk about guns, or who avoid gun-owning nonhunters like the plague, are likely to be perceived as merely concealing their true views until after the election.

Webb, on the other hand, is saying "If you're a law-abiding American, and you own a handgun or a black rifle, I respect you, I respect your right to choose, and you can vote for me without fear."

It's not people like Webb, and Paul Hackett, and Russ Feingold, who reach out to gun owners to assure us that they respect our rights, that perpetuate the gun-grabber stereotype. THAT is perpetuated by a gun-hating fringe who keeps dragging the ban-more-guns agenda front-and-center every time they get in front of a camera.

Every time Dianne Feinstein opens her mouth on the gun issue and claims to speak for Democrats and progressives, she perpetuates the gun-grabber meme. As much as I dislike the pejorative term "gun grabber," Senator Feinstein is one, by any definition. Charles Schumer is a great guy, but he is clueless on the gun issue and perpetuates the stereotype by his support of every ban du jour.

Senator Kerry's attempts to reach out to gun owners didn't go over well in 2004, NOT because he tried to reach out and thereby perpetuated the stereotype, but because he got sucked into cosponsoring a bill (S.1431, 2004 session) to ban protruding handgrips on civilian rifles and shotguns, and was therefore seen as pandering to hunters while demonizing the nonhunting majority.

We don't have reasonable gun regulations because of NRA wackos and the gun grabber mythology.

Actually, most of what I would consider reasonable regulations (the National Firearms Act, GCA '68, carry licensing, etc.) are already law. Anything that's lacking (e.g., background checks for private sales) is lacking because of the gun-control lobby's "Gun Owners Are The Enemy" philosophy, IMO.

Honestly, everything I can think of that we gun owners have EVER given up--including the NCIS background check, which nearly all of us support--has been immediately turned into a tool to use against us, to try to pry away the next batch of our rights. NCIS passed, and immediately the gun-ban lobby wanted it used as a registry. An obscure provision of GCA '68 gets turned into William J. Bennett's assault-weapons ban, by Bush the Elder's executive fiat (and helped cost Tree the election, too, but that's another story).

If you'd vote for Webb, you're likely not a gun extremist, so stop repeating their talking points.

I'm not repeating anybody's talking points. What is important to me personally is that I have the right as a nonhunter to own small-caliber nonhunting rifles with modern styling and normal magazine capacities; that I have the right to lawfully and responsibly use them for recreational target shooting, or defense of my family, if I so choose; that I have the right to pass them along to my children when they are of age; and that my wife and I, as FBI-Certified Good Guys, can be licensed to carry a firearm for self-defense if we choose, as long as we do so responsibly. Those are nobody's talking points but mine.

I have written at length on this elsewhere, and all opinions expressed therein are entirely my own. You might also check out this post by DU's own virginiamountainman, for how the issue plays to other gun owners.

There IS common ground on the issue, and most gun owners DO support reasonable restrictions. But reasonable restrictions are NOT what the Brady Campaign says they are...

[SaveElmer]

36. The cold reality of Virginia Politics...

A moderate Democrat can count on about 40% of the vote...

In order to get the rest appeals have to be made to moderate to Conservative independents, Reagan Democrats and even Republicans...

These people love two things...guns and their Confederate Flags (over generalizing a bit of course, but not by much)

A statewide Democratic candidate in Virginia cannot campaign on gun issues...period. They will lose.

Limiting his campaign to those places where there a gun control advocates and where no confederate flags are present limits Webb to about 10 outside Washington DC...

[sandnsea]

39. And they support gun regulation

I have Republican voting gun owning family members in the south. I lived in Montana for nearly 20 years. I live in rural Oregon now. I have NEVER met any gun owner who didn't support reasonable gun laws, NEVER. The NRA created the gun grabber myth just like Reagan created the welfare queen myth. In fact, I've heard WAAAAY more people bitch about Democrats and welfare than guns.

[SaveElmer]

41. But that is not the perception of the Democratic Party...

Unfortunately...

A Democrat opens his mouth on gun control...no matter how reasonable and it is immedieteley assumed they are trying to take away all guns. A Democrat in Virginia (home btw of the biggest NRA office), cannot get away with even a hint of gun control in their campaign. In fact, many Democrats (Warner) actively go after and sometimes get the NRA endorsement.


It's the reality Webb and the Virginia Democratic Party have to deal with. And it will not change in the next two months I can guarantee you

[sandnsea]

42. We have to change that, not surrender values

That's what I'm saying.

It's like this. Webb goes around to gun shows and gives the impression he'll never vote against any sort of gun regulation law. If he wins and votes for any gun law at all, he proves all the doubters right and damages the party. If he goes around to gun shows and says he's "not that kind of Democrat", he perpetuates the gun grabber myth... and damages the party. That's why what he's saying at these shows concerns me.

If he's talking straight talk about reasonable gun regulation, a few might listen but never vote for him so he's more likely wasting valuable time because he isn't going to win enough votes to matter. He's fishing in the wrong damned pond. With only 2 months to go, it's a waste of time unless the booth was manned by a volunteer who only volunteered to do gun shows.

[SaveElmer]

44. It wasn't specifically about gun control that he went there.

I know you know there are issues other than gun control. Webb did not go to a gun show to talk about guns specifically, he went there to campaign amongst a constituency that usually is not targeted by Democrats. The gun show was a convenient place to do that.

Though I don't know, my suspician is that Jim Webb is not in favor of gun control. So be it. While I am for closing the gunshow loophole, there are more important issues on which Jim Webb can be relied, and will not affect my intention to vote for him.

[sandnsea]

45. Right, the topic never came up

:eyes: He can't reach a voter at that show without getting over the gun grabber hurdle first. It's good enough for a volunteer to hand out material and answer questions, hopefully break down some barriers, but a waste of time for Webb to be there. Anybody who walked into that gun show and was willing to vote for him wouldn't base their vote on guns anyway, and could be reached through other means.

[SaveElmer]

46. Are you from Virginia?

Getting that vote is a huge barrier, and a gun show is an effective means of getting across it...I applaud him for making the effort! If he got a few people thinking and reconsidering it will be well worth it.

[sandnsea]

47. What you do when you show up MATTERS

Kucinich could show up at a gun show, do you think that would help??? What Webb says when he's there matters. And his view of gun regulation matters too, it should matter to all of us who are appalled at thousands killed by guns in this country every single year. I'm not ready to call this a good idea when I don't even know what he said when he was there.

[SaveElmer]

48. In Virginia...

It is one of the best ways to reach those voters that rarely get targeted with a different message. And the publicity from the attempt is also disseminated because of its relative novelty. As I said, there is more than gun control on their minds. And frankly, if Webb is against gun control it probably helped him get the message out on other issues...reading the description sounds like folks had gas prices on their minds!

Again, the cold hard reality of Virginia Politics...gun control is a killer issue for Democrats! Any statewide Democratic candidate is going to be against any significant gun control. For the forseeable future that is the reality. It is unreasonable to expect Jim Webb to somehow change that mentality in two months.

[sandnsea]

52. Democrats aren't for gun control

And the majority of Americans ARE for reasonable gun regulation. So if Webb is running around being against gun control in order to pander to a minority of voters who will NEVER vote for a Democrat because of 20 years of NRA MYTHOLOGY - he's an idiot. Is that clear enough?

[benEzra]

58. It all comes down to one's definition of "reasonable"...

e.g.,

Background checks for all purchases - probably reasonable.

Restrictions on rifle stock shape - not reasonable.

*I* support reasonable gun control, including the National Firearms Act, the Gun Control Act of 1968, the 1986 armor-piercing bullet ban, and such. But you call me a "wacko" because my definition of "reasonable" differs from yours...

[sandnsea]

61. You support background checks, a gun regulation

Just like I said, most gun owners support reasonable gun regulations.

Yet you have consistently painted Democrats as gun grabbers in the past, use "Bradyites" in this thread, and try to turn my attempt at reasonable gun debate into a gun banning frenzy. That's the wacko part and you chose to engage in it.

[benEzra]

76. There is indeed common ground to be found...

the reason the phrase "reasonable regulation" rubs me the wrong way is that the Brady Campaign loudly portrays legislating rifle stock shape and 1860's-era magazine capacities as "reasonable regulation."

I do support reasonable regulation, but I do not believe that most of the Brady Campaign's proposals meet that criterion.

It has been said that a fanatic is "one who redoubles his efforts after having lost sight of his goals." The Brady Campaign has been sidetracked for 15-20 years now on issues that have nothing to do with gun crime (rifle stock shape, high-end target rifles, opposing CCW licensure), and they advocate on those issues with religious fervor.

[Paladin]

83. Gotta Love It. A Gun Militant Lecturing Us About Fanaticism

Coming up soon: George W. Bush on effective public speaking, followed by Madonna's talk on the joys of virginity.

Out here in the Real World, the Brady Campaign is viewed as a model of propriety when compared to, say, the NRA. Here's a revised definition of fanaticism for you, Ben: An organization so radicalized and out of touch that it prominently places Ted Nugent on its board of directors. Why don't you tell us all what the Bradys have done that even comes close to that in terms of sheer, unadulterated looniness? No time limit on your response; pour yourself a nice big glass of Wayne LaPierre's kool-aid and enlighten us, OK?

[benEzra]

88. Fanaticism:

as I said, redoubling one's efforts after losing sight of one's goals.

Gotta Love It. A Gun Militant Lecturing Us About Fanaticism....pour yourself a nice big glass of Wayne LaPierre's kool-aid and enlighten us, OK?

I've stated why I think the Brady Campaign has lost sight of its goals, insofar as it now spends most of its political and financial capital generating ad hoc rationalizations of nonsensical positions. To me, the most illustrative example thereof is their obsession with banning rifle handgrips that stick out (even making it their top legislative priority for more than a decade), when all rifles combined account for less than 3% of homicides, and many states report zero rifle homicides in any given year.

Your vitriol toward owners of handguns and nonhunting-style long guns is one way the "Dems'll take yer guns" attitude gets propagated, IMHO. I get the feeling that if you had your way, half the guns in our gun safe would indeed be outlawed.

Drink your own kool-aid, or MrB's, if you prefer. I'll stick to orange pekoe.

[immoderate]

94. Ben I understand you quite well.

And I am mystified why others don't get what you're saying. But you are doing a good job here, and being very patient.

A agree with just about everything you said. I am a gun owner and I think there should be reasonable regulation. Background checks are good. Registry defeats the purpose of the Second Amendment. "Assault" rifle bans are pabulum for the clueless.

In truth, if you commit assault with a rifle, that's an assault rifle.

(BTW, I have a 30 round (pre-ban) magazine for my Browning P-35 Hi-Power. And It's mainly a conversation piece because it throws off the handling and balance of the gun so much, that I hate using it. The regular mags hold 13, but under the ban had to be modified so they could only take 10. What's the point in that? :shrug:)

--IMM

[benEzra]

100. Thanks. (n/t)

[SaveElmer]

59. Here is what is clear...

A Democratic gun control advocate CANNOT WIN a statewide race in Virginia...plain and simple!!!

[sandnsea]

60. Therefore, what Webb says - matters

Which was my point from the beginning. And if he's running around Virginia perpetuating the myth that the Democratic Party is FULL of gun grabbers in order to pander to people who are highly unlikely to vote for him anyway - then he's doing more harm than good. He ought to be challenging the perception the NRA has painted of the party, while advocating whatever HIS view on guns is.

[SaveElmer]

63. Webb is speaking for himself...

The fact that gun control is not mentioned on his website is indicative of its importance in this race. It is unreasonable to expect him to spend his precious time and money trying to roll the gun control rock up the Virginia hill...it will not work! If he is perpetuating the myth and that gets him elected here...unfortunate but better than the alternative. He is running for Senate from Virginia not from the United States.

Democrats can win statewide when the Democrat running is not perceived as hostile to gun ownership. So some of these people may vote for Webb. I am not willing to consign the Party here to permanent minority status over gun control and how it is presented.

[sandnsea]

67. Then that isn't Howard Dean's plan

That's the plan Democrats have been using for the last 20 years. Run away from the national party and platform, run local. That's fine, but don't ever expect to win the presidency that way.

[SaveElmer]

69. Yes it is Deans plan...

Engage voters in every part of society...he doesn't expect they will fall in lock step with every Democratic proposal that comes down the pike. Right now it is good they get a hearing. Perhaps down the road gun control will no longer be framed the way the NRA has managed to until now...btw for a good perspective on shifting this debate check out the dreaded PPI...some good articles there on this topic...but for now it will not happen.

In any case, that change is not gonna happen before November. It is easy to say from the outside what Webb should do, but for those of us with Felix as our Senator, gun control is the last thing we want to talk about.

[sandnsea]

74. That's what they've done for 20 years now

If you mean to tell me we're spending buckets full of money so Democrats can keep running on splintered policies and issues across the country, then no wonder Rahm et al are pissed off. I happen to think you're wrong and just willing to say anything to justify your OP at this point. I think Dean's plan is to get in those states and start correcting myths about the party and get people across the country at least in the same chapter if not on the same page. It's like what he says about abortion. Lots of folks think they're pro-life because they would never have an abortion for themselves, but also would never tell someone else what to do. Well we call that pro-choice and Democrats need to start saying so. That's the 50 state strategy.

And if Webb doesn't want to talk about his view on gun policy, he ought not go to gun shows.

[SaveElmer]

80. You are absolutely right...

That is Deans strategy...but he does not assume everyone will agree, or that he will be able to convince everyone, or that everyone will agree even after the myth has been corrected.

That is a long term process, and is gonna take alot of incremental steps to make it happen. To expect Jim Webb to fall in line with that now 2 months before the election, to somehow change this perception among voters in that amount of time, probably sacrificing his chances of victory is ridiculous.

[sandnsea]

82. I only expect him not to perpetuate the myth

Actually, I just got a call from my doctor and I'm not in the best of moods at this second so I'm going to bail on this for now.

[Redneck Socialist]

93. Hunh? How does a Democrat appealing to gun owners...

"...perpetuating the myth that the Democratic Party is FULL of gun grabbers..."

It would seem to me that he is doing exactly the opposite. Reaching out to gun owners and in effect saying "no, Democrats don't want to grab your guns."

[snowbear]

103. Dean can clarify the issue if he really wants to..

He was endorsed by the NRA for 8 straight years..

Evidently, he must not feel that it's a serious enough issue to battle? :shrug:

[Redneck Socialist]

91. "...pandering to wackos???"

"Is HE going to speak at some Bob Jones type religious institute next??"

That's kind of a stretch isn't it? Going from campaigning at a gun show to going to Bob Jones U?

From what little I've been able to find Webb claims to "support the second amendment" (interpret that as you will) so campaigning at a gun show seem like a pretty good plan to me.

[Redneck Socialist]

89. Pray tell, what is this "gun show loophole"? n/t

[Maine1991]

92. re: As a sheriff's deputy lies dead in Virginia

What does your title “As a sheriff's deputy lies dead in Virginia” has to do with the gun debate. You are trying to make it sound like the “gun show loophole” had something to do with his death.

If you read the news, you would know the sheriff's deputy was killed by his own gun.

[gully]

96. The virginia man stole a gun. "Loopholes" are totally irrelevant in this

case.

[sofa king]

104. Thank you for your sanity!

The fact is that the guy got his gun from a cop, whom he overpowered and then shot. And the other cop who was later shot with the same gun had been shot before--by a guy who overpowered a cop and stole his gun.

Nobody in this entire story and backstory was injured or killed with anything but a police-issued handgun!

[ContraBass Black]

101. Gun control might save lives, but it wouldn't have helped that deputy

Or the hospital security guard. They were shot with a pistol stolen from the hip of another officer.

[Stinky The Clown]

3. I like that a lot

Population-specific campaigning .... bringing the campaign, in big bold letters and signs, to where each subconstituency hangs out.

[gratuitous]

4. For the price of three tables and a banner

I'll bet Webb picks up 25 or more votes from this gathering. And gets people at the gun show talking to their fellow aficionados who couldn't make it to the show. I count four people standing around those tables, talking and listening.

[SaveElmer]

5. Also smart taking it to Allen's turf...

If you read the article you will see Allen had no presence until they heard Webb was there...then they hurredly attempted to illegally put up Webb signs which they were forced to take down...

Force Allen to defend what he thought was safe ground...I like it!

[immoderate]

95. Did you mean Allen signs?

That would make more sense.

--IMM

[zbdent]

10. That takes balls I haven't got

When I see the words "gun show at the ..." I keep thinking of somewhere miles away from some of these people ...

And why do these (generally voting Repuke) people insist on the "Confederate Flag" if the Republicans are the Party of Lincoln??? That always gets me ... I mean, would it be civil to fly the Nazi flag a lot in Germany these days, "for historical purposes" and the Germans being "proud of our heritage"?

[SaveElmer]

17. Well...

For many it is a form of rebellion against what they view as the elite snobbery of urban intellectuals....

For others it is just a big case of group think, accompanied by a rose colored view of what the Confederacy was about. They will repeat the mantra that slavery had nothing to do with the Civil War. They also have bought into all the "lost cause" cavalier view of Southern life under the confederacy.

[DinahMoeHum]

12. You can thank Jarding and Saunders for this move by Webb.

They're the authors of "Foxes in the Henhouse", which focuses on winning back the South for the Democrats. They're the ones who managed Mark Warner's successful campaign for VA Governor. Now they're doing the same for Webb.

www.foxesinthehenhouse.com
http://www.foxesinthehenhouse.com/content.htm

(snip)
Like a newly discovered treasure map offering a path to buried riches, Foxes in the Henhouse is a hard-hitting political blueprint for how the Democrats can win again in the South and rural America. The authors document the Republicans' rise in the South and Midwest, expose the hypocrisy that marked their ascent, and offer a take-no-prisoners plan to kick them out.
In addition to exposing the lies behind the gradual Republican invasion of the hinterland that began in the 1960s, they offer some surprisingly simple strategies for Democrats to capture each of these issues. Among other things, Jarding and Saunders urge Democrats to:

1) Quit turning their noses up at the culture of rural America and talk to people where they live
2) Learn how to count when going after votes
3) Show some passion and retaliate when Republicans assassinate their characters
(snip)

:kick:

[sendero]

14. I don't know anything about Webb...

.. but I'm liking him already. It's time to neuter the second "G" that has been dogging us and losing us millions of votes, and making nobody's life better.

[mucho macho]

23. DISGRACEFUL

NO PROGRESSIVE SHOULD EVER APPEAR OR BE CONNECTED WITH AN EVENT THAT FLIES THE RACIST CONFEDERATE FLAG. (SEE PICTURE)

[unpossibles]

31. well, it's not as simple as that

first of all, let me state I can't stand the "stars and bars" and think it's unpatriotic, not to mention racist.

But that said, it falls under freedom of expression, just like the Neo Nazis, the Klan, and the RNC, and is most likely flown not by the people holding the convention so much as one of the presenters. Sadly, they are quite commonly seen at fairs, gun shows, and flea markets (at least near where I live they are, and that's not even in the south!) by people who sometimes also have WWII Nazi paraphernalia, etc.

While we should not pander to that, we do need to engage the people before we can even think of convincing them not to fly something like that. Sadly, I doubt you'd be able to convince the flag owner why he should take it down, but I'd bet that there are a lot of folks at that gun show who do not support the Confederacy, and who would be interested in what the Dems have to say to them.

[meldroc]

24. I'm happy to see the Democratic Party engaging gun owners.

Quite frankly, one of the primary reasons why the Democrats have been getting their clocks cleaned in the past few elections is because of their endorsement of ridiculous and restrictive gun control legislation. It's one thing to try to make sure people who buy guns aren't criminals, it's another thing to impose stupid laws like magazine capacity restrictions or bans on scary looking guns that have the same real-life functionality as deer rifles. I thank my stars that those provisions of the Brady Act were allowed to sunset.

I'm glad to see the Democrats actually working with gun owners instead of treating them as "The Enemy." The Democratic Party needs to start defending the Second Amendment for a change.

Watch this thread get locked in the Gungeon in 3...2...1...

[NYCGirl]

25. That's great. It's what we should be doing. NT

[onenote]

27. growing concern about Webb

I was speaking to a number of active fellow Democrats in Northern Virginia over the weekend and there is growing concern about Webb's campaign. No one is jumping ship or anything, but there is a general sense of unease about his ability and tactics as a campaigner.

Maybe its just a sense that he's taking Northern Virginia for granted. But one thing that is telling is the following:

I didn't realize until the primary election day that Webb lives in my subdivision. I didn't realize until this weekend that sometime in the past year he moved and now lives on my street. And its not a very big street. This is a small, fairly close-knit subdivision with a lot of community organizations and a lot of community wide events (parades on Memorial Day, July 4, Labor Day, etc). I've never seen Webb at any of these events or known him to participate in any of the community gatherings. Our repub Congressman shows up at almost everything and he doesn't live in the subdivision (although he did for a short while). Its a fairly affluent community and it strikes me as odd that Webb doesn't do more to cultivate his own neighbors as sources of contributions, votes, and support. All politics, even statewide politics, is local.

[demdiva]

30. that's funny, because just last week Allen

said that Webb was taking southern VA for granted....
He seems to have a lot of events/debates scheduled lately/soon.

Maybe you should be proactive and arrage a house party for him in the neighborhood???

[SaveElmer]

32. I did attend a house party last weekend...

In Clifton...one of two in the area...

If you know Clifton you know it is affluent and generally Republican...I took this as a good sign.

He is an in experienced politician, so some growing pains are to be expected. I think Felix's recent gaffes have given Webb some breathing room as well...

[onenote]

34. that's good to hear

I'm already scheduled to host a fundraiser for our congressional candidate. I'll check into whether there is a way to combine it with something for Webb or whether anyone else in the neighborhood is planning something.

[Totally Committed]

29. Jeezuss... as much as I want to see Democrats elected,

that picture makes me want to cry. Never thought I'd see the day.

TC

[SaveElmer]

33. Well we are talking about Virginia...

If you were going to only campaign where no Confederate flags were around, you would be pretty limited...take my word for it!

[Totally Committed]

37. I understand,

but still..... :cry:

TC

[SaveElmer]

38. Well if it is any consolation...

I do have a bumper sticker on the back of my car that has a Confederate Flag with a line through it...and the slogan "You Lost, Get Over It"

I actually get alot of positive reaction to it up here in Northern Virginia

[Totally Committed]

43. Bless your heart...

That actually IS a consolation. But, a gun show.... Ugh.

Thanks for the post. Mighty classy of you!

TC

[benEzra]

56. Why?

But, a gun show.... Ugh.

Why?

Fully half of gun owners are not repubs. Around a third are Dems, with the rest being mostly indies, plus a few Libertarians thrown into the mix.

Around here, a gun show is a good place to get ammunition in antique calibers that most stores don't stock (try finding 7.62x54R in a big-box store!), collectible firearms (my wife bought her pristine 1952 Tula SKS at a gun show), and archery stuff. Sure, there are some neocons there, and a few of them hawk tasteless bumper stickers. There are also plenty of Dems, indies, and fence-sitters.

[SaveElmer]

64. Where are you from Ben?

Just curious

[benEzra]

65. North Carolina...

North Carolina, though I did spend a decade or so in Florida. My wife is originally from Boston (Cambridge, actually) and grew up in Maine.

FWIW, our Democratic governor here (Mike Easley) is A-rated and endorsed by the NRA, and so is most of our Dem executive branch. Easley won this state 55/45 in '04, even as Kerry/Edwards lost it 45/55.

[SaveElmer]

66. Just wondering...

I'm not a gun afficianado myself...and am probably more of a control advocate than you, but have been to a gun show or two in conjunction with relic shows I do attend. My experience has been they are overwhelmingly Republican affairs here in Virginia...Virginia is the home of the NRA, so things may be different here...not sure.

I am glad Webb went there however...gun control is a loser issue for Democrats in Virginia.

[sandnsea]

68. Excuse me

What Virginia Democrat ever ran on confiscating guns or creating a registery of gun owners?

[SaveElmer]

70. None are that stupid...

It would mean immediate political death! Those that have even been accused of it falsely go down in flames.

A statewide Democrat cannot actually come out for gun control, or even be perceived by their silence to advocate it. I suspect Webb, given his military background, and the fact that he has been a Republican most of his life, that it is asssumed he is not for gun control.

[sandnsea]

71. Then quit saying they are for chrissakes n/t

[SaveElmer]

72. Read the entire thing...

I hit submit prematurely

[SaveElmer]

73. Then quit trying to get them too...

Pushing a gun control agenda on Virginia will not work...at any rate not for a very long time!

[sandnsea]

75. You just said they don't

So how the hell did anybody in Virginia get the idea that there are Democrats pushing "gun control"???

From the fucking NRA and idiots who repeat their talking points, that's how.

[SaveElmer]

79. Christ...

Did you read the post....

Even the slightest hint that a statewide candidate is for any form of gun control will kill them. It has happened...and yes by demogoguing of the NRA and Republcan Party...which is still in full force in this very Red State. The mere perception in several statewide races has seriously hurt the Democratic candidates in those races. But somehow Jim Webb is supposed to change all this in 2 months...and if he can't well he is just supposed to forgo campaigning in places where they might be selling guns.

Jim Webb went to the gun show to interact with rural, conservative Virginians, to attempt to get them to look at some of the issues he is campaigning on in a different way..gun control is NOT anywhere near the top of that list. Some of the issues he is campaigning on will resonate with those people. It is completely irrelevent that it happened at a gun show!!! And frankly, if he was asked his views on it, I don't care what he said at this point if it gets him elected.

[snowbear]

98. Go Webb!

What a guy! ~~~ :patriot:

[brentspeak]

49. People here shouldn't worry about James Webb attending a gun show

He's not about to become a Dixiecrat any time soon.

[underpants]

50. Good great idea

:thumbsup:

[GrantDem]

54. I agree...

In order to win Democrats have to appeal to all.

[underpants]

55. Sales

You don't sell to people who don't see your product.

We are the big tent party right?

Come on in, yeah you were getting used by the other guys but here you do have a voice.

[Guaranteed]

77. Absolutely. nt

[AtomicKitten]

78. whatever it takes

Some DU'ers are not willing to even try to understand the brilliance of Dean's 50-state strategy if it doesn't fall within more liberal guidelines employed in the bluest of states. Red states require different strategies. I hope Webb kicks the every lovin' shit out of macaca-boy. He so has it coming.

On edit: K&R

[snowbear]

86. LOL... "Macaca Boy"

"Macaca Flap evaporates Allen's lead"

http://www.wdbj7.com/Global/story.asp?S=5306986&nav=S6aK

What a friggin' idiot George Allen is!

[AtomicKitten]

87. I feel like smoking a cigarette after reading your link

... and I don't smoke.

A truly satisfying outcome.

hahahahahahahahahhahahahaha, macaca-boy!!!!

[w4rma]

97. Great. Jim Webb is going to make a top notch U.S. Senator.

He is listening and talking to regular people here in Virginia. I think he has his finger on the pulse of Virginia.

[usregimechange]

99. Damn strait!

[snowbear]

102. Y' know.. everytime someone bounces that "Gun laws will be the..

..death of Democrats" thread (or whatever it's called) .. this thread should also be bounced.

This one, and the one that reminds people that Howard Dean was endorsed by the NRA for eight straight years.

When it comes to the gun issue, I don't think it's going to be a huge problem like that other thread suggests.

[benEzra]

105. The gun issue isn't a problem for Dems who respect the rights

of law-abiding gun owners. Our Dem governor (Mike Easley) is pro-gun, and was not only given an A-rating by the NRA, but was NRA endorsed in 2004 over a pro-gun repub. I suspect Webb falls into that mold; I've never heard him endorse the Feinstein ban, for example.

The gun issue can be a BIG problem for politicians who take a ban-more-guns stance, though. Erskine Bowles (nationally known 2004 Senate candidate in NC) found that out here in a big way in 2004, when he ran in NC on a strong ban-more-guns platform and got spanked by a no-name repub that nobody had ever heard of. Kerry/Edwards also managed to lose this state 45%/55%, even though the SAME voters pulled the lever for our Dem governor 55%/45%, and this is Edwards' own home state.

Outside of a few extremely anti-gun states, the ban-more-guns position is a loser.

[Blue_Tires]

106. hope it works out

as a Virginian i know this is necessary to win votes, but seeing the confederate flag in the background makes me vomit in my mouth a little