Lame DU thread posts ....

[Stinky The Clown]

There's a certain sameness in many threads on DU. Not the OP so much as certain replies to the OP. Frequency and repetition render them increasingly lame, and reduce them to little more than noise. And I could also say, reduce their seriousness to a worn out cliche and cop out. But I won't. I don't think ..... anyway ....

The biggie of them all: 'Not if we don't get rid of Diebold first.' I think we got cheated in every election since the big bomb of 2000. I further think all e-voting machines were a part of that, not just Diebold (their de facto poster child). But lets face it. The machines in and of themselves were not the real issue. Sure, they can be hacked and quite likely were. But it is equally likely that good old fashioned cheating was a greater cause. Disenfranchisement was a big one. So were the various and sundry mischievous deeds like not enough voting machines in known Dem areas and sending out fliers in predominantly black areas telling the voters their vote date had been changed. In 2000, the one **really** big issue was the Supremes. Turns out that if they had allowed the count to continue instead of awarding it to Favored Son on a bogus argument tailored **just** for him - flawed though the counting may have been - it would have rendered us a President Gore, even in the face of any electronic vote count manipulation and mischief. To come into a thread and piss on it with the throwaway line of 'Not if we don't get rid of Diebold first' is disingenuous and largely unhelpful. But most of all, it is downright insulting. Do those who use this drive-by line **really** think they're saying something new and enlightening and something that other thread participants will find useful? Gimme a break. Yes, the voting machines have been a large part of cheating to win elections. That's true, but give it a rest in threads that otherwise have **nothng** to do with vote count cheating.

Next is the ever popular 'Worry about 2006 first' and all its variants. Does anyone who posts this **honestly** think whoever they're saying that to has somehow forgotten the midterms and their critical importance? Stop it. You're just being insulting. If you don't think you're being insulting, point me to the 'fuck the 06 midterm' threads. I musta missed 'em.

'My guy' posts of all manner and type when the thread has virtually nothing to do with your 'my guy'. These posts, it seems to me, serve no purpose but to harden feelings *against* your guy and often lead to flame wars - all of which doesn't add one damned thng to the issue being discussed in the thread at hand. If anything, these posts are (presumably) unintentional thread hijackings.

I know .... who the hell am I to stand on a soapbox and say this? Well, I have no more or less right to do so than anyone else. I'm a cranky old clown who's just feeling particularly curmudgeonly on a Sunday night.

Oh ..... and lest anyone misinterpret ..... I absolutely believe that the electronic voting systems in place in various parts of the country are bad news and need to be removed. I absolutley think that 06 may be the most critical election cycle in my lifetime, and that our very form of democracy may be at stake. I appreciate and admire the dedication and loyalty of supporters of this 'my guy' or that and encourage their continued hard charging on behalf of the person they see as the best one to .... whatever it is you think your guy will do for us. I'm not oppopsed to any of this. My whole point is inane posts .... and am willing to ackowldge that some may see *this* post as being equally inane. So be it.

We now return to your regularly scheduled squabbling, obviously already in progress.

[ruggerson]

1. Yay, a SANE POST!!

Don't forget "Rove did it."

When the teaming masses in GD started blaming Karl Rove for orchestrating this latest Jon Benet saga, I realized that some of us are our own worst enemies.

Well, actually I realized that a long time ago, but this was a nice, fresh slap in the face.

[WCGreen]

2. I think the Voter Fraud controversy is just an excuse

for some to throw their hands in the air and say we can't win...

Also, it allows those vanquished to blame something else rather than a bad candidate or strategy....

I have given up trying to even answer those who think the world revolves around crooked elections....

[Clark2008]

16. Psst... it's not voter fraud - it's election fraud.

Voter fraud means the voter participated in the fraud, which is clearly not the case with the electronic voting equipment.

But, I do agree that we can't blame that aspect solely.

:hi:

[WCGreen]

21. I stand corrected.....

[mtnsnake]

18. I share your same exact sentiments. nt

[mucho macho]

29. I totally agree.

Run another like Big Dawg and watch the LANDSLIDE

[valerief]

3. If voters aren't massively disenfranchised and aren't forced to

wait hours to vote and actually do get provisional ballots that aren't thrown away, there's still the vote switching.

[NMDemDist2]

4. so Rummy tells Bushit that overnight 3 Brazilian soldiers were killed

.....

huh?

what?

what were we talking about?

:yoiks:

[bahrbearian]

5. Not if we don't get rid of dieblock..no thats not it,,hmm wait a minute..

[NMDemDist2]

6. ...

;)

[ncrainbowgrrl]

10. OH--you did NOT just go there! No- I'm series! :-)

I shall never look at brazil the same way on a map after this joke. :evilgrin:

[NMDemDist2]

13. hehe

:hi:

[LincolnMcGrath]

7. How about; "I'm really not campaigning for Joe here, but what if..."

insert strawman


rinse



lather



repeat

[The Magistrate]

8. As The Poet Just Intoned In My Ear, Sir

"Let's sing another song, boys. This one has grown old and bitter...."

[ninkasi]

9. Proud to give this the 5th

recommendation, good post.

[skids]

11. Instead of posting threads about threads...

...you should be worrying about 2006. :evilgrin:

[Land Shark]

12. E-voting is a huge fraud-multiplier; always lots of pressure on elections

I suppose that's why people keep stressing it, since we'd have to reduce the fraudsters down to zero since it only takes one person with one results disk to throw an election. That's why e-fraud is qualitatively and quantitatively different than the proverbial paper ballot fraud that creates evidence and witnesses (whether or not they talk), while e-fraud likely doesn't create evidence.

But that being said, sure, multiple causation is the rule rather than the exception. There are other important aspects of the situation too. You mention many of them.

How about today's #1 DU thread, my Zogby poll showing 92% national support for election transparency. Is that a drive by comment? : )
<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x446445>

OK, I know, you get it, you get it!!

[mrreowwr_kittty]

14. Let's work toward making them not even close enough to steal

Bush should have been polling single digits by Nov. 2004. That he wasn't speaks to strategic failures on many levels. And no, it's not just the media though they do suck. While we're on the subject of election fraud, though, I think more attention should be focused on efforts to discourage and disenfranchise voters, which are currently underway. In my state, GOP operatives are paying people $10 per Republican registrant and nothing for Democrats. And what do you really think they are doing with the Democratic forms? This is where we lose far more voters than in machine chicanery, IMO. Tabulations can't be too far off from exit polls lest suspicion be raised, or you have to change the exit polls. But it's impossible to calculate how many voters are prevented from making it to the ballot box.

[springhill]

23. I really have to chuckle at these posts..........

You make it sound as though the people (like me) who think that this administration will do everything, including massive election fraud to remain in power are somehow paranoid. You really believe that their consolidation of power that they have attained through illegal means is something they are willing to give up? They have grand plans, and it doesn't include democrats being in power.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

32. Not at all

I agree with you completely about the ruthlessness of the administration and the willingness of its followers. We had serious and substantiated election integrity issues in my own district on a local race. But I come from a Red state where * did get a majority of the votes legitimately. He still has a 45% approval rating here, which is mystifying to me and our worst boot-licking Repuke Reps and Senator are still polling ahead of their Dem challengers, according to internal Democratic polls!.

[Kolesar]

15. DUers should be working with campaigns to find voters &get them registered

...and educated on all the details that are discrete bits of getting votes:
registration, absentee ballots, location of the polling places, recommended ballots, provisional balloting. Not sitting around sidetracking threads and bitching about Diebold

[mtnsnake]

17. Thank you!

The Diebold one takes the cake for me. While its an important issue, it's so often misused here as the all-purpose excuse to hijack threads that are trying their best to offer positive solutions to our problems. It happens so often, that I wonder if half the time it's done by people who DON'T want us discussing how we better our party's chances of winning.

recommended

[AtomicKitten]

19. It's more than election fraud.

The machinations of Blackwell in Ohio were creative to say the least. And he is using every trick in the book, legal or not, to manipulate to his advantage his race against Strickland. Shortchanging Democratic precincts with insufficient numbers of voting paraphernalia, creating circuitous and bizarre restrictions and rules, and the piece de resistance, purging the voting roles which is going on in earnest today. Republicans travel in hit squads to swing stages jamming phone lines and creating all kinds of chaos. And this is on top of the unreliability not to mention the now ingrained suspicion of fraud vis a vis electronic voting machines.

The entire system needs to be reformed. Then and only then will citizens feel confident they have unfettered access to casting their vote and that their vote is being counted.

[JNelson6563]

20. Quite something isn't it?

But you must remember, some are here cause they literally have nothing to do. They are not active in RW politics but they are full of instruction for us all on how it should be done. Additionally, the "my guy" stuff you address, again remember that there are people here who are only here for one reason, to promote their guy. It's kinda like talking to an Amway person, somehow they always turn the topic back to Amway. It's almost scary.



Julie

[IronLionZion]

22. Right on brother!

And I really hate the preachy posts telling us what we can or can not post! :silly: just kidding man,

Yeah election fraud has existed long before electronic voting machines. The machines are only a small part of the much larger problem.

Short term and long term planning is crucial to success. And I think we as a party are good for both. We're heading in the right direction with Dean's 50-state strategy and taking advantage of dissatisfaction with the GOP.

There are lots of threadjackings. My candidate, as well as my issue, or my defeatist self-loathing are common and redundant.

And I definitely hate the inane soapbox posts. :patriot:

[springhill]

24. A small part of the problem?

Sheesh. Our whole country, little by little, is being turned over to these machines, with absolutely no way to know how our votes are being counted.

Mark Crispin Miller: The Democrats are largely stricken with paralysis, due mainly to denial. (I think there's also some corruption in the ranks, and at the top.) All those who ought to be devoted full-time to this issue are peculiarly inert, because they won't or can't allow themselves to face the awful truth. Bernie Sanders, for example, won't deal with the issue, claiming that to do so might inhibit many Democrats from coming out to vote. The logic is absurd: "Don't say anything about election fraud, or else the people will sit out Election Day!" So let the people go and vote, so that their votes can erased by the Republicans?

<snip>

That's denial, and it's widespread in the party; and there's quite a lot of cowardice, as far too many Democrats are scared to death that someone will accuse them of "conspiracy theory," "sour grapes," "paranoia." Meanwhile, at the grassroots level, people really understand the need for something to be done — and not just Democrats, but sane Republicans. In many states the fight to drive or keep out DR machines is a bipartisan endeavor. It's only the political establishment — both national parties, and the press, including the left/liberal press — that's standing in the way of radical electoral reform. It's time for everybody to snap out of it.

http://www.bobforohio.com/online_opinion/2006/feb/op2006-02-15.php

[IronLionZion]

26. The problem was there before the machines were invented

you seem to have missed my point and still managed to do what the OP was trying to stop.

They can steal elections without the damn machines. Election fraud is the problem. The machines are just a convenient tool.

Good old fashioned ballot stuffing, voter suppression, intimidation, bribery, and even free whiskey have been used throughout history...especially in our party. I bet that has nothing to do with the overwhelming Democratic dominance of much of our country's history. It just blows that to fix the problem we have to rely on leaders who were elected with this system or we have to find new leaders who are willing to tackle the issue but still we have to somehow elect them through this corrupt system. It's not going to take 1 person, or 10 people, or even 1000 people. It will take a wave of popular demand to bring about any real change. 92% of America already supports the public's right to know how votes are counted. And congresspeople are starting to take notice on just how innaccurate their election results really are.

It's great that you are concerned about the voting machines. What are you doing about it?

2 good threads today:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1948363
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x446480

Cheers,
ILZ

[Kurovski]

25. Mark Crispin Miller's excellent book "Fooled Again"

makes clear the amount of old-fashioned election fraud and vote suppression that went on in 2004.

I was stunned at the level of fraud, and I thought I had been all "shocked-out".

Edit: You make an excellent point. There are other things to discuss regarding elections than fraud. we should all take care not to dismiss other aspects because of "Diebold". To do so is a form of giving up and negligence.

All aspects need to be considered.

[Kurovski]

30. Edit: "...other things to discuss ALONG WITH fraud."

Just wanted to make clear the importance of the issue.

[leftofthedial]

27. well, grouch . . .

;-)

no election will be legitimate until we get rid of Diebold, ES&S, et al. Things have gotten MUCH WORSE since 2000. They don't need a criminal Supreme Court anymore, but that too has gottem MUCH WORSE since 2000 if it comes to that again.

[ClassWarrior]

28. This message brought to you by...

...the king of lame DU threads.

NGU.

[LittleClarkie]

31. Or the automatic posts you get when you mention someone's name

Like the one's I see whenever Kerry is mentioned, such as "He caved in 2004" and such.

Hey, it's not like I'm asking people not to feel that way. But if the thread's not about Election 2004, it would be nice if folks could stick to topic. And it's not as if we don't all know how certain people feel about certain things without it being repeated over and over. We're not Drew Barrymore and this isn't "50 First Dates."

It gets tedious as much as anything.

[nicknameless]

33. Well, you cranky clown...

;)

Seems to me that the Diebold (etc. voting system) alarm keeps going off is because:
1) they make election rigging so freaking easy and quick
2) they can disappear, flip, subtract and add tens of thousands (or more) votes instantly and without detection
3) a citizen’s vote is their primary power in their governance. And Diebold et al effectively take that away.

Yes, right now in countless states, rethugs are busy tossing hundreds of thousands of qualified voters off of the rolls. What is the average citizen/DUer going to do to stop them?

What is the average citizen/DUer going to do about phone jamming? Lack of machines? Long lines? Rethug harassment? Being barred from witnessing the vote counting? Machines not working when they go to vote? Etc. ad nauseam...

Many citizens’ passion about their vote is visceral. Whether it’s pulling a lever, punching a chad, inking a circle or checking a box.
It is the one thing, short of litigation, that they feel they can do to determine their country’s direction. It’s all about self determination -- ie: democracy.

Sorry that you’re weary of those posts. But telling people that their posts are "lame" is essentially telling them to shut up.
IMO, the last thing we need right now is for people to shut up.

[Stinky The Clown]

36. You're dead wrong

I'm not telling anyone to 'shut up'. I'm suggesting in my own quiet way that it might be more helpful to stick to a thread's topic. Nowhere in my OP did I say any vote count cheating threads were wrong. I said in the OP and will repeat here for your benefit that I absolutely believe we got cheated in 00, 02, and 04. Of that there ios no doubt, and no dispute from me.

What I *am* suggesting we try to avoid is meaningless - almost jingositic by its mindless repitition - throwaway sloganeering posts that don't even go anywhere NEAR the point of so many OPs of late.

But you chose to see things as you want them to be. That's fine. Spout off as you wish. But don't rewrite the OP.

Okay?

[nicknameless]

37. You referred to those posts as "lame".

Making people hesitant to post their concerns for fear that they'll be viewed as "lame" is in effect shutting them up.

You're saying that posting those concerns in unrelated threads is the problem. I guess that would be subjective.

I know that you're concerned about election fraud and recognize that numerous elections have been stolen.
I never suggested that wasn't the case.

I didn't "rewrite" your OP.
I stated *why* I believe that issue is at the forefront of many people's minds and why that alarm keeps going off.

[Guaranteed]

34. Very good post.

Was this post worth my time? :P

[Jed Dilligan]

35. The worst effect of the "noise"

is when complex issues become the domain of two warring camps, and it is impossible to discuss them from any other perspective--for instance, supporting neither Hezbollah nor the Israeli invasion.