Did Clinton use warrantless wiretaps?

[cry baby]

Maybe to catch the spy Ames?

In my forever arguement with freeps here in Tn, they have said that the Big Dog used warrantless wiretaps, but hasn't given links to proof or anything. Is it true?

[rzemanfl]

1. Only when it was LEGAL to do that. The law was then changed

and Clinton obeyed it, no bullshit no signing statements. This has been beaten to death, a stake driven through its heart and yet all the silver bullets in the World can't make it dead.

ON EDIT: Should have read the question better, it was warrantless PHYSICAL SEARCHES that were legal, as I recall. I am sick of the whole issue.

[silverweb]

2. It's the Freeps' assertion.

Let Freeps submit the evidence.

[htuttle]

3. He used wiretaps, but got warrants

His administration also seemed to catch and convict a lot more real criminals.

[cry baby]

8. I hope that's true.

[sandnsea]

9. Educate yourself

Stop posting this right wing shit - especially since I know it's been answered repeatedly. And when a DEMOCRAT tells you the truth, why do you CHOOSE to believe the lying sack of shit right wingers instead???

[cry baby]

11. I am trying to educate myself by asking the smartest people I know.

I don't believe these idiots...I just need to be able to prove what I say, unlike they do.

I'm asking for info here...is that ok with you?

[sandnsea]

19. It's been asked repeatedly

No, it really is NOT okay for Democrats to repeat bullshit that has been floating around the internet since a particular story broke.

Here, knock yourself out - how friggin' hard is it???

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=clinton+ames+debunk&btnG=Search

[cry baby]

20. wasn't repeating...just asking.

Thank you for the link. I didn't think of adding the word "debunk".

[Vyan]

36. Media Matters covered this

From Last December:

Media Matters has has details on this point regarding comments made by Hannity & colmes guest host Rich Lowry...

As a guest host on the December 20 edition of Fox News' Hannity & Colmes, National Review editor Rich Lowry claimed that the Clinton administration had asserted "exactly the same authority" that President Bush has cited in defense of his controversial decision to allow the National Security Agency (NSA) to conduct http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/16/politics/16program.html?ex=1292389200&en=e32072d786623ac1&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss">warrantless domestic surveillance. Lowry was referring to then-Deputy Attorney General Jamie Gorelick's July 14, 1994, http://thinkprogress.org/gorelick-testimony/">testimony before the Senate Intelligence Committee, in which she stated that the executive branch has "inherent authority to conduct warrantless physical searches."

But "physical searches" are not the same as electronic surveillance and, as Gorelick's testimony made clear, were not restricted at that time by the Foreign Intelligence Authorization Act (FISA), which has since been amended to include them. The foreign intelligence activity that the Bush administration has argued it can conduct without warrants -- domestic wiretapping -- has for 27 years been governed by FISA, which specifically requires court orders. On the other hand, the foreign intelligence activity to which Gorelick was referring -- "physical searches" -- was not covered by FISA when she said that Clinton had the "inherent authority to conduct" them. Further, Gorelick testified that she supported legislation requiring FISA warrants for physical searches. Following the http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2001/10/06/MN183971.DTL">passage of such legislation in 1995, the Clinton administration no longer asserted that it had the authority to conduct warrantless physical searches. By contrast, the Bush administration has claimed that it is not bound by the corresponding FISA provision requiring warrants for domestic eavesdropping.

Vyan

[cry baby]

37. This is exactlly what I wrote to my "friend" the freep.

Great points made in this summary! He, of course, replied that MediaMatters.com is a left-wing bush hating website. I pointed out that the links given to prove the point were from unbiased sources and that he should take the time to read them.

He'll never give up but there are other people watching my conversaton with this freep. If I can sway even one of them with these facts, then this frustrating arguement with the freep will be worth it.

Thank you for replying and helping me with my courage to go on with the arguement!

[Debs]

30. Its true

There are actually two seperate issues here.Clinton conducted a PHYSICAL search (not a wiretap) without a warrant under the assertion Ames was an enemy agent. At the time physical searches were NOT covered under FISA. They changed the law with Clintons support to cover physical searches AFTER that. Tenet testified to Congress that Clinton ALWAYS got warrants for all applicable wiretaps. It is clear he NEVER did what Bush is doing.

[cry baby]

35. Thank you so much Debs!

I feel better knowing the facts. I knew I could count on DUers to help.

[rock]

4. And the RepbliCONs remained silent about this, eh?

Tell them to pull the other one.

[cry baby]

6. They would have impeached him if he had broken the law, wouldn't they?

My freeps are idiots!

[Sal316]

5. Ames dealt with physical searches...

....which weren't covered under FISA at the time, but was amended to cover it within a year.

BTW.. Ames was identified an 'agent of a foreign power', which kicked in certain provisions of FISA making it easier to perform searches.


Freeps are idiots who would argue with you about the color of the sky.

[cry baby]

10. My freeps are particularly mean. I'll give you an example:

My freep that I deal with every day!! ACK!

"you are such a dunderhead....The policies carried out by this administration are only a continuation of the clinton administrations policy, you freakin' liberal hypocrites.....

Your hero claimed that he could bypass the warrant clause for national security purposes. In 1994 Gorelick, no less, told the committee on intelligence that the Prez has inherant authority to conduct warrantless searches for foreign intelligence purposes....Now, I understand you libs want to make this only domestic, but that is a lie.... matter of fact, Gorelick said the prez or the attorney general only needed to satisfy themselves that an American is working in conjunction with a foreign power before a search can take place.

And that is exactly what clinton did..... remember Mr Ames, an agent who aided the soviets???? used warrantless intel, ordered by janet reno, to nab this traitor, even though you guys whine it is illegal. Where was your side then???? Then clinton supported changes to FISA with a new intelligence act in order to protect future administrations from stupid, idiotic challanges to our espionage procedures..... apparantly Mr clinton failed in his quest....


Under direct testimony, Gorelick admitted using the NSA illegally in conjunction with the FBI in domestic affairs. When asked directly if the FBI had the authority to call the NSA for assistance, Gorelick said, and I quote, " We have the authority right now to ask for assistance when WE THINK THAT THERE MIGHT be a threat to national security." A threat, what we have now.... But now it is all different, you bunch of hypocrites.

But your side wants to claim that this is an unprecendented act.....What a whopper of a lie.....your side did it...... My god, CLINTON AND JANET RENO DID IT!!!! It is hard to imagine that if libs get back in charge we were safer under CLINTON than we would be under the current bunch of liberal weak spined, lilly livered, butt kissin, UN lovin', frenchie pointy head liberal appeasers....

You side is using this as a political tool...... Your side will NEVER, EVER have the ability to keep us as safe as CLINTON did, much less President Bush.


In addition, I certainly hope you believe I am calling you names, I am.... You deserve it and so does your party.... you guys are gonna get innocent Americans killed because you cannot stomach the same programs carried out by your own party."

[Sparkly]

23. See Media Matters

http://mediamatters.org/items/200601060010
and
http://mediamatters.org/items/200512240002

[cry baby]

26. One of my favorite sites, I just didn't think to look there. Thankyou!

[Sparkly]

43. The second link -- the 12 myths -- is an excellent synopsis

with plenty of links for documentation.

[cry baby]

44. I gave that link

and pointed out #8, #9, and #10 especially. This freep just can't handle the truth!

BTW, I had never seen that list before...very excellent reading! I bookmarked it for future use.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sparkly]

41. I'm glad the mods left this post up.

It's a perfect example of what you're talking about.

First, we have the lies about Clinton, Gorelick, and "the wall" -- all propagated by the rightwing, and factually refuted many times over.

Second, we have the "peace-nick" (sic) meme, blamed for 9/11, in complete disregard of factual history. Interesting how the Clinton administration went from being "obsessed with Bin Laden" and "inventing terrorist bogeymen" and "wagging the dog" to being "peace-nick" after 9/11, isn't it??

Third, we have the strawman that other nations don't "FEAR" us unless we're engaged in reckless invasions a la BushCo. Our military, economic, and political clout (at least, as it used to be) carries inherent "fear." We are (or at least, were) able to threaten, even implicitly, and no one was ever unaware of that. The "big stick" we carried gave us plenty of leverage, influence, and sheer power -- including for resolutions, negotiations, diplomacy, forming alliances, issuing sanctions, etc. The lie is that unless we're beating people up with the stick, there's no awareness that we have it. That's just plain stupid.

Fourth, we have another strawman: that unless we're blundering a la BushCo, Iran might get a nuke. Completely absent from this argument is the fact that it's BushCo's policies that have enabled Iran to do what it's doing, and in fact, have strengthened Iran enormously. Iraq has been a victory for Iran -- there is no question about it. The poster might ask himself what BushCo is doing about Iran, and how well it's working.

Fifth, we have the crowning idiocy on the topic of surveillance: the lie that WE are claiming tapping phone calls of Hezbollah (or Al Qaeda or whoever) is "violating civil rights." That's the strawman argument of this entire debate.

In other words, the poster is clueless. With all the fear evident in the post, you might think such people would ask themselves whether BushCo's blunders have made us safer. It's as if "Stupid" = "Strong."

Equal parts frustrating and sad.

[cry baby]

45. I deal with people that think like this every day.

Not only on my local message board, but every day on the streets. The funny thing is that some of them will argue till I've knocked everything they've said into oblivion...then they'll say "Well, the world is supposed to be bad right now...cause of the rapture and all"!!!!!!! That is when I start laughing out loud at them.

[cry baby]

46. Here is another example of what I argue with every day.

I will not retreat from this kind of person, so I keep going.

Mr. Freep:
Quit tossing aorund liberal mantra about brave women dying and protecting. Liberals only use that when they try to save face. Liberals are a disgrace to our military. Whether is Vietnam coming home booing then, whether writign articles saying they can't support our troops, or doing everything in their power to make them look like bad guys in Iraq to try to get us out. You are worthless.


This is a different freep than the one in the op.

Sometimes I get tired and I'm not a good researcher. I come here for relief, comfort, and information.

On a personal note, as long as I've been reading DU, Sparkly, you have been an inspriation to me. I always read your posts with great interest.

[cry baby]

7. Still need to know if Clinton did this, I can't find anything on google.

Anyone have info and newpaper articles or links?

[rzemanfl]

12. This freeper asshole will never be convinced. Don't waste your

time.

[cry baby]

13. I cannot quit...it will be seen as a retreat.

Others read this forum. I'm not arguing to convince this idiot, I am also arguing to inform others that are reading.

[leveymg]

14. Not like Shrub, in a systematic, across-the-board way against US Citizens.

However, the NSA has always gathered huge amounts of information from US persons as part of its widespread surveillance of electronic networks. That information was supposed to be destroyed after a period of time, consistent with NSA directives, if there was no probable cause to seek a FISA warrant. That rule was generally followed.

However, there were serious breaches of security within both the CIA and FBI, the Ames and Hansen espionage cases being the most publicly known. Neither agency trusted the other, and the FISA Court was distrusted by both, so there were highly compartmentalized operations involving domestic electronic surveillance for which there were no warrants sought.

CIA surveillance over certain al-Qaeda cells within the US from January 2000 until 9/11 -- a period that spanned both Administrations -- was conducted without warrants. See, http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0310/S00257.htm

[cry baby]

16. I'll read about it...thank you so much!

[niyad]

15. simplify things--just say, "if it was wrong for clinton to do it, why is

it okay for shrub?"

[cry baby]

17. I could do that...but they will just say 9/11

as if we were never threatened by terrorists before.

If I have to concede this point about Clinton, I will use your argument...thank you!

[zulchzulu]

18. Four letters: FISA (Clinton legally used FISA court)

Freeper "point" shot the fuck down...

[aein]

21. No, but Lincoln did. And that means they can do it too!

[Sparkly]

22. See wiki, too

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Act#Electronic_surveillance

[cry baby]

27. perfect!

:hug:

[librechik]

24. freeps ignore it cuz it looks like Clinton did something about terror

and they do everything they can to suggest he did nothing.

He spied. He used warrants. His cases were convictions, not tossed-out-of-court things like the BushCo fiasco.

[Sparkly]

25. Yes, more effectively -- AND legally!!!! nt

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cry baby]

34. Get off my thread!

infiltrator!

[koopie57]

40. How does that song go????

George Bush lied about weapons of mass destruction ....

"all together now DUers" .... and Clinton got a blow job.

3,000 Americans killed in Iraq cuz of George Bush ...

"all together now DUers" ... and Clinton got a blow job.

You tell me, what business is it of yours if Clinton got a blow job? And why do you care so much? Let me see, dead people versus a blow job. Well, sure I can see now how they fit together. You can't blow up sperm. I wonder if all the republican men went to Iraq and ... humm... don't want to be banned, don't want to be banned, don't want to be banned ....

[cry baby]

42. ...

:rofl:

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProSense]

32. Bush and the GOP must be getting nervous! Is that you Tony Fox? n/t

[annabanana]

33. "the world NEEDS more 'lerts"

(justsayin)

[koopie57]

38. yikes!

Why are American liberals convinced that there’s no connections between Saddam and Al Qaeda?

Well, one tip off is that they are fundamentally opposed to one another.

And quoting fox news ... oh jesus ... lmao

[cry baby]

39. luckily, this poster has been tombstoned

[koopie57]

47. *breathing a sigh of relief*

I haven't been able to sleep for a couple days and started drinking in hopes of at least shutting my brain off and my judgement is starting to go.

Hold down the fort for me just in case I manage to fall asleep or pass out or something.

[cry baby]

48. We got your back...take a nap!

:grouphug:

[koopie57]

49. k

no one ever "got my back" before. I think it is cuz I never allowed it ... but it is kinda nice. I trust you. Night folks.