Can we discuss profiling?

[Stinky The Clown]

I am not advocating for or against profiling, but I'd sure like to discuss it.

As background, I am adamantly opposed to racial profiling - kinda like what was being done by some police agencies in the bankrupt 'War on Drugs'.

But here we are again, facing the issue.

On the one hand, we have the absolute insanity of the way we do passenger checks on airlines. The carry-on bans that are just plain silly. Either too harsh or too lax. In actual fact, there's no effective way to eliminate, by simple fiat, all carry-on items that might pose a danger. If it isn't knitting needles its Bic lighters (while at the same time allowing matches). The fact is, the whole current system is just silly ...... and probably not only ineffective, but harmful. Harmful, you ask. Yes, harmful. A false sense of security that lulls us into complacency.

On the other hand, the notion of screening passengers for any risk they might pose is probably needed in these times.

I'm hearing increasingly that a program of targeted profiling might be a viable alternative. And I'm open to the idea. Not carte blanche. Not knee jerk. But I'm willing to listen to suggestions on how it might work on one hand and not be needlessly discriminatory on the other.

And therein lies the rub.

Discrimination.

The very word has all sorts of negative connotations. But it is really a neutral word. We all discriminate. My wife discriminated when she chose me to court her instead of that other guy. We discriminate when we go out to eat and make a menu choice. While the diner serves breakfast 24/7, I chose a gyro on my last visit.

Is it possible to do some intelligent (I'll call it) 'behavioral discrimination' in airline screening? Can we develop fair guidelines to keep us on track with such a program? Are there certain behaviors more likely to be engaged in by bad guys than the rest of us?

I'd like to see this discussion more on the moral and practical aspects of the notion of doing this instead of specific details of such a program.

I'm thinking that calling for such a program - if it is possible and reasonable to do it and do it fairly - might be a good place for our side to start. Everything that gets debated these days comes from the other side, with our side simply seeing a 'better wat' to do the same damn thing. Maybe a proper profiling program coming from our side can cut through some of the clutter and get us to a better place.

What are your thoughts?

[dipsydoodle]

1. If they profiled me by appearance

they'd think I was a skinhead - I'm not. :)

[Stinky The Clown]

2. I have the same problem

But that's not really what I'm talking about. To be effective, profiling MUST be multidimensional. A guy with a dark skin tone and shaved head but who is a frequent flier to second tier US cities and is an employee of a large company's sales department is probably not worth getting alarmed over.

[dipsydoodle]

5. We had a situation here years ago

which the police never managed to overcome completely. Most of the football/soccer fans looking for for trouble travelled to away matches on "football special" trains. However the real pro hooligans travelled first class on Inter City trains - all travelling individually and all looking smart with suits etc. They were known as the ICF which is abb of Inter City Firm. They generally avoided police detection and simply met up and got changed near the away ground.

The point I'm making is that screening methods are easy to evade and hence maybe a bit pointless at times.

[primative1]

3. Profiling Is WRONG

It only ENCOURAGES the activity it seeks to curtail.
Target us all or target no one.
Once we subject one group to endure scrutiny not given to another, we are no longer America. We will have lost the war on terror IMO by becoming exactly the type of nation that terrorists say we are.

[Lerkfish]

4. If they profile, then a blonde, blue-eyed scandavian woman in pigtails

will blow up the plane instead.

:shrug: the assumption is that the concept of terrorism is exclusive to a certain type of person, which is false, and highlights the problem with declaring a war on terror.

Terror is an idea. ANYONE of any race or nationality can adopt the idea and act on it.

[Stinky The Clown]

9. I, too, would be against profiling by appearance

What was in my mind when I started this thread was a comprehensive, multidimensional set of criteria. In that abstract, and discounting for a moment the pure evil that runs this country now, I should think that appearance would not be the top predictor.

[calico1]

6. I don't know if there is such a thing as

"behavioral" profiling. I suppose it would be more fair than what is being done now. It has been proven that profiling people who look to be of ME decsent is useless (as well as wrong) since there are White people that become terrorists. It was also proven wrong to just concentrate on men, as women now have started blowing themselves up. I know that people like John Douglas and others have been sucessful at identifying certain behavioral characteristics of serial killers, terrorits, etc. and they have been quite good at it. So if a very careful behavioral type profiling could be developed it would certainly be better. The thing that concerns me is that as long as these crooks are in charge anything can be abused. And I would worry that they could use the excuse of behavioral profiling to get people that don't really fall into a certain behavioral category. So I don't know....I do think it's ridiculous to make these middle aged women toss thier lipsticks and diabetics toss their special food. It does not make me feel safer.

[primative1]

7. Do we live in the real world?

You know as well as I do that, regardless of what kind of a nice sounding report they put together, it would as you said, just be used as an excuse to justify the PROFILING they now prefer.

[calico1]

10. I agree. My point was that if

done well, it could be a useful tool BUT I KNOW they won't and will abuse it. They will use it to get anyone they want and just say they were displaying certain characteristics. The whole thing with behavioral type studies is that it isn't a definite, obvious thing like hair or eye color. Its all behavior.

[Fleshdancer]

8. People don't profile their own race

and this is one of the many reasons why profiling is, in my opinion, ridiculously short sighted. In order for one to believe that only Arab men are inclined to commit acts of terrorism, s/he would have to completely ignore all acts of terror committed by people of any other race, including their own. It's a false sense of security.

[Jim__]

11. ... certain behaviors more likely to be engaged in by bad guys ...

It's certainly a great idea. But ...

My recollection is that when the police developed profiles for drug traffickers, their profiles included people driving below the speed limit, at the speed limit, and above the speed limit. In other words, everyone fit some suspicious profile.

Could the "bad guys" find out the profile characteristics and use it to their advantage? I don't think it could be very difficult. After all, it seems like the front line people would have to know the profiles; and there are too many of them to insure that the profiles remain secret.

It's a good idea; but, I doubt it can be worked out practically.

[Stinky The Clown]

12. "It's a good idea; but, I doubt it can be worked out practically."

I sorta disagree with that thought. I *do* think good people, working with good intent, and dealing honestly and appropriately with the issue *can* work it out.

That said, I also think that there are NO good people in charge of things right now, let alone good intent or the ability to deal honestly.

I further know that such programs could easily be put to less than honest use and can, in fact, be hijacked for nefarious purposes. Any program would need to have proper and vigorous oversight.

[Hard_Work]

13. "behavioral profiling"?

Hmm, so besides flying patterns, what else would you use? I have been on planes exactly three times in my life, during my honeymoon three years ago. So, if my wife and I fly to NY for a weekend, we are subject to suspicion? What other criteria would come into play? Oh, maybe I should mention that I am a light skinned Black man who could be mistaken for middle eastern, and is often mistaken for a Latino. Damn, guess I go directly to jail, do not pass go, huh?

Profiling doesn't work. In order for it TO work, people would have to get over their natural inclination to distrust people who don't look like them.

[Stinky The Clown]

14. Couple of things .......

..... just as a reminder of what i said in the OP ..... I am NOT advocating for this ..... I just wanted to kick it around.

I made up the term 'behavioral profiling' in this thread as a way to imply it would include a lot more than race or skin color or ethnicity. Not that it would specifically exclude those factors, but that those factors would be one among many.

As to what behaviors would be predictors, I honestly don't know. That's not an area I have any expertise in at all. But I could imagine it might include thngs like when a ticket was bought. Like somthing silly but maybe telling ... shifty eyes or sweaty palms or some such. I don't know.

By the way, I fully understand where you're coming from (I'm a light skinned black man often mistaken for a latino.) I'm a swrathy complected white man with a shaved head and often mistaken for middle eastern or latin or Jewish. I fly more than a lot of people and have been singled out for special handling more than I care to count.

[Hard_Work]

15. Not snapping or anything.

I know you weren't advocating profiling. It's just a sore spot because I have been singled out on more than one occasion because of my skin color.

I just don't think human beings are capable of adhering to a strict set of guidelines without subconsciously considering other factors. Interesting topic, though.

[Stinky The Clown]

16. I think we're on the same page .......

..... and yeah, I thought it was an interesting topic, too. Particularly in light of more than a few people (some on our side) mentioning it of late.

I heard on teevee (not totally sure who or where, but I'm pretty sure it was on Hairballz) a guy advocating for our side saying we ought to think about it. (Bob Shrum up against Pat Buchanan?? Not sure ..... ) I've also heard some from the other side saying the same thing.

It struck me at first as just plain nuts ..... but as I thought about it, it seemed a bit more reasonable ..... if it could be done right. And therein lies the rub.

Being unsure of the ability of my own knowledge on the topic to bring me to any reasoned conclusion, I decided to throw it out here.

Thanks for your thoughtful comments.