My support for Wes Clark is growing

[MissWaverly]

I must admit that the man is constantly DOING things that deal with our problems. He goes
beyond rhetoric to show practical strategies for DEALING with what is going on. His pac
just sent me an e-mail with a link to send an e-mail to Lieberman to ask him to drop
out of the race. I must admit that I am impressed.

[longship]

1. Clark is a man with a conscience and an intellect

I don't know if he'd make a good president, but I'd like to think he would. Unfortunately, I am not sure that the man could get nominated. However, he could easily fit on just about any Dem ticket as Veep.

My problem with that is that I think it's way past time for a woman or a minority to be on the ticket. I really don't think that it's going to happen this time. Clark would be my top choice, then.

[MissWaverly]

2. agree but think it will be the next generation to elect them

we have been going backwards in this country for some time, what you say is true if this was
really 2006 but Bush has succeeded into turning this country morally and socially back to
the "Gilded Age." If they are in much longer women and minorities will no longer have the
right to vote. In fact, they are doing this to minorities in many places right now, with
their purging lists and machines that do not record votes. Read Greg Palast's Armed
Madhouse about vote suppression of the Indians and Latinos in New Mexico and vote suppression
of the blacks in Ohio and Florida.

[Clark2008]

4. See, I think that would be a waste of his talents.

He should either be president or Secretary of State (can't be Def. Sec. because federal law prohibits anyone from serving as Def. Sec. until he/she has been out of active duty military for 10 years. By 2008, Clark will have only been out eight years). What could he do with his talents as VP?

It saddens me the way the media constant leaves him out of any discussion about the Democratic nominee, though. He SHOULD be the nominee because he's, well, perfect. We're at war: he's got that experience covered and diplomacy creds to boot. He's got a masters in economics - we definitely need his ideas on that issue. He's former military and Southern - he'd appeal to red state swing voters and would have a better chance than any of the others to swing some red states (Warner and Edwards simply aren't the cut that Southern and mid-Western voters crave, I'm afraid - they're not perceived as "macho" enough).

And, quite simply, he's not afraid to take the fight TO the Republicans. Heck, he braves the lions den weekly to appear on Faux News and try to talk some sense into their insipid viewers!

But, I do agree with you that his getting the nomination would be a long, hard road. :(

[MissWaverly]

7. I consider myself a traditional democrat

but I do like his hands on approach

[Clark2008]

36. I'm sorry, I've missed your point.

Honestly - I'm not trying to sound snide.

Do you mean that traditional Democrats would or wouldn't support Wes? Or are you saying that AS a traditional Democrat, you like his hands-on approach?

I also like his hands-on approach. My post above was simply to mean that, because our media is controlled by corporations who would sooner break apart than allow coverage of a populist in a meaningful manner, it's going to be difficult to see Wes get the nomination.

We saw what the corporate media did to both the populist candidates of the 2004 Democratic primaries, Clark and Howard Dean (who, btw, were the only two candidates to call for the return of the Fairness Doctrine): they put Dean under such a microscope that a loud voice over the whelps of supporters turned into a maniacal scream and they completely ignored Clark, not even giving him credit for winning the Oklahoma primary, opting to cover his driver's speeding ticket, instead.

As a former journalist, I'm sickened by what passes as the news media now.

[MissWaverly]

43. Let me try to explain what I mean

I admire people like FDR. They had a hands on approach to government. I think that your
government has to be driven by policy. I think that since the Media campaign that created
a victory for Nixon, that the race has dwindled into photo ops and sound bites. I want
an idea what this person is going to do, I don't want beautiful, polished phrases. I want
to know more than Help is on the Way. It seem like the old politicians used to campaign
like that and that is what I want. And I think that is what the old time Democrats want
and that is what I am. My statement that I was a traditional democrat, but I like a hands on
approach refers to my feeling I am going to make up my own mind in 2008; and I am not going
to pick who is being pushed on us. It now seems to be Sen. Clinton. I will have to have
real reasons for supporting the candidate for Prez in 2008.

[brer cat]

46. I agree with both of you. Clark would be a wasted asset as VP

He is very hands-on, and imo he has very capable hands. I think that the media will be very difficult with a Clark for Pres., but I sure don't think that should leave him out of the running. He is a strong candidate period, and in these trying times in the ME, a NEEDED person. We need every person we can get in 2008 to help turn this mess around, hence my reply below about Jimmy Carter. Who ever can help, get them on board. I would like to see Clark for Pres. but I can be convinced SecState if a stronger candidate is chosen for Pres.

[MissWaverly]

47. yes, secretary of state yes

we will need someone who will not be a lightweight

[Clark2008]

49. OK - I gotcha now.

:thumbsup:

[MissWaverly]

51. thanks, I must admit that although I had favorites

I more have less have followed my party and it's platform, but I am going to have to be more
involved and more aware that just reading the blurbs and following the media coverage.

[truedelphi]

71. Yow-ee You must be my astral twin (politically speaking)

Could not have said it better myself

[MissWaverly]

89. Thank you

I feel that one thing the blogs will save us from is the Liebermanizing of America, no longer
is the DLC or the Beltway going to be able to pick a candidate with no input of the American
people. I might be a democrat, a loyal democrat and a traditional democrat, but I am not a
zombie. And, I don't care who Donna Brazile, Fox News, or the Washington Post likes. I want
someone who can lead the American people and not a sheep.

[capi888]

3. This man is a gift. Listen to his ClarkCasts

If you have the opportunity to go to one of his appearences and meet him. You will have no doubt that he cares about the people,our Country and the World. He is easily accessable, and looks you right in your eyes. Listens to every word, and will tell you the truth. He is gaining lots of support, but its not being told by the media. He has a strategy, going directly to the people, speaking for Dem candidates. You might want to read his article in the WSJ, its fabulous. Also listen to his webcasts, he discusses ALL the issues, directly to the american people. Agree or not, he is talking to the people, to give his views. From enviorment to war...take the time to listen to this wise man.
www.securingamerica.com

[MissWaverly]

6. thank you for the informative post, I will bookmark

I must admit that I like Al Gore but I do remember his slap down of Ross Perrot, and like it
or not, the giant sucking sound has happened as jobs have been outsourced and the American
Middle class has been hurt by this.

[capi888]

8. Miss Waverly, Your very welcome!

We must all have open minds, listen, make our decisions on who can best serve our Country and World. Our Country and the world is at stake here. We have tough decisions to make, to become united, and follow our hearts with knowledge about the possible candidates. This next election for President, is possibly the most important in American history. This will determine if we remain a Democracy or a Corporate controlled gov't. (Fascism)We need someone who is well respected internationally, has experience in solving the problems that create war. I believe WKC is that man, however, everyone has their decisions to make, intelligently by being informed.
I give you kudos for being so open and intelligent for seeking what is best for our survival as a nation and the American people. Thank You!

[MissWaverly]

9. Thanks, believe me I know what a duty we have

What happened to me, when I was young and very naive, I went to a college thinking that it would
be the place of my dreams but it was not. It wasn't at all like the catalog, a slick PR effort,
I have never forgotten that. After, I graduated from college; I spent years paying off loans
and I never forgot that lesson. Just because the man acts the part and looks the part; does not
make him presidential. Look at the actors, look at Nicolas Cage, in one movie he's a tough
street saavy guy and in the next he's a professor. What we need is someone, who is capable and
has the necessary teamwork skills and knowledge gathering skills to effectively carry out the
duties of the oval office.

Here's a quote from Teddy Roosevelt

Our duty to the whole, including the unborn generations, bids us restrain an unprincipled present-day minority from wasting the heritage of these unborn generations.

[capi888]

11. Well learned lesson

We are given those lessons to bring us forward with new experiences. What you see is not always what it is. To see through it, takes humility, knowledge and searching. Sometimes we want results, that are not in our best interest, as so many have, in the past 5 years. They only listen to the sounds, and don't question with wisdom, what creates the noise and why.

[MissWaverly]

12. and the minute someone says, big win no sacrifice

we run like lemmings to support that person and that is just foolish, even as a kid I
knew that I had to pay for the ice cream cone, but we keep hearing tax cuts like the
promise of free ice cream and we applaud w/o thinking.

[democrank]

5. Wes Clark should be right out in front

speaking for Democrats. This man is the best we`ve got.

[FrenchieCat]

84. The bottomline is that Wes Clark has got Presidential Instincts

as opposed to a Politician's Instinct. His natural reflexes are those of a leader, not a follower.

Wes seems to understand the seriousness of a matter BEFORE THE FACT, rather than to wait till a poll is taken to determine his position. And in reference to our Foreign policy in particular, that means a great deal, like saved blood and treasure before they are spent!

[ChipsAhoy]

10. Greatest Page Vote!

Outstanding thread. Short and sweet and to the point.

PS - I've always been impressed by Wes!

[MissWaverly]

13. Thanks

and I must admit sometimes I like just a signpost and not a 300 page treatise!

:-)

[capi888]

14. Yes a wonderful thread...

We must be looking at the 2008 election, regardless of our favorites, argueing with each other who is the right choice, when we really do not examine who they are, what their background is, and who is the best choice, regarding their experiences, in policies and solutions to what our Nation and the World is facing today. We are in serious problems worldwide, and it is going to take someone who is worldly, internationally known, and a problem solver. Our Democracy is at stake here, along with the loss of respect for America.

[MissWaverly]

15. we are going to have to deal with scaling back our defense

I have thought about this a great deal. The neocons and the defense industry with their
lobbyists are not going to disappear if the GOP is voted out of office. We are going
to have to change our spending in this country. The cold war is over, we have seen
over and over again and are seeing in the Israeli/Lebanon conflict, huge sophisticated
weapons are only marginally effective against today's terrorists. We need adaptable defense
which is mobile and geared to fight in Urban areas. We are going to have to stop building
weapons for the Cold War and start figuring out how to fight the Osamas of this world.
That is going to have to take someone with military experience either as VP or President.

[capi888]

16. I agree...

Just remember that the VP position is to Govern over the Senate. also, in the event of the dimise of the President he takes over, the functions of VP are limited to the Presidents discretion. The need for someone with military and foriegn policy expertise, is of utmost importance in the Presidentcy in 2008. We should have finished the Osama situation, instead we attacked Iraq. Now we are in a big mess and Osama is still a big threat.

[MissWaverly]

17. think what it would have been

If instead of the lone cowboy approach, we had given monies to the Middle East for
terrorist surveillance, say to the police forces there. Think what a far reaching
effect this would have had. Agree with your take on foreign policy and military, there
will be much mopping up to do.

[capi888]

20. OH YEAH...

Cowboy approach...no good....PNAC approach...not good. Power control, and the control of the ME, is the goal. Cheney is the mastermind..and as you said, weapons of the cold war to defeat our enemies at the end of a gun, does not work. Need diplomacy and and political intelligence AND need to know the the culture of the ME. We shot a bullet into the hornets nest and now they are swarming all over.This plan started when Bush Sr. refused to go into Iraq after the Kiwait war. Son was very upset, at his father, and could see the $$$ from oil...that is my opinion.
Now we need to put a President in that has the respect of the World. Who is a leader, with expertise in handling this situation. I have my preference, but everyone has to make a decision based on facts and listening to what each candidate policies are. We are not going to agree, perhaps on ALL their ideals, but have to weigh out the positives and the negatives. This situation we are in now, is life or death to our nation and many others.

[MissWaverly]

22. Totally agree

Also think the son thought he would have a brief war like Pop, which he did but then we
didn't leave, if we had left the Iraqi army and government intact and just had regime
change (which even that I disagree with) then we would have had much different results.
But, I think the United States is going to need someone who is a teamplayer; a man
capable of keeping his cool, the walk back from disgrace is not going to be easy.

[brer cat]

21. I'm in agreement with you...just one nitpick...

can we debate rather than argue? A civil debate weighing the pros and cons (because ALL candidates have both) would go a long way to helping us find the WINNING combination in 2008.

This is a great thread, and I would think Clark would be near the top of most duers list regardless of who they would pick 1st.

[MissWaverly]

24. Yes, must be civil and not a name calling brawl

everyone's opinion must be respected.

[capi888]

26. Not a nitpick...good question

That is reasonable, wish we could. Great idea, but do you think that some would just let it be civil? It is time to be civil, as the World is in deep trouble. I fear for our Democracy that so many have died for the freedom we cherish. Time to put personal wants aside, look at the big picture and decide individually, who you think would accomplish the ultimate goal of PEACE. Brer Cat, we are in big trouble and I am fearful of what this administration is going to do to get their way. Scary!!!

[MissWaverly]

29. yes, I agree, it will be dirty and ugly

But we will have to just keep marching on, I told my Republican friends last night at dinner,
stop that talk, we had a worse time in this country during WWII, there was more danger to
America at that time and we didn't have warrantless wiretapping of everybody, and secret
renditions and people held w/o trial.

[brer cat]

32. I am equally fearful of this administration.

Which is why I believe dems MUST pull together. Debate, not argue, among ourselves, and come up with winning strategies to best the bull elephant in the room. I am in deep red country here in No GA. I know many r's who call * arrogant, a lier, etc but STILL they vote r because they think dems don't have a plan, don't have winning candidates.

Clark is a great candidate. I for one think his military background is essential because of the total mess * admin has made of the middle east, but I'm open to opinions regarding all other candidates.

The more we beat ourselves up, the less respect we have from independents and the r's who possibly could be turned to our side. Not all r's and not all conservatives are neo-cons. We need to reach out without rancor and try to kill this damn beast once and for all.

End of rant.

[MissWaverly]

34. Thanks for your input Brer Cat

I agree, and I think that we have to have statements that are likely to grab people, make them want to get out of their chairs and vote. And I think we should ask Jimmy Carter for his advice on how to handle this campaign, I respect the man, I think that he's respected and
I think he knows the Middle East.

[brer cat]

38. I'm totally with you. JC is a great American, he talks the talk and

walks the walk, and he DOES know the ME. I was born near JC's Plains; now live near Zell. Oh God! I would love for a dem candidate to flat out say JC would be a part of their team as an adviser (too old imo to hold any office). We need his voice of reason in the ME which NO one has today.

[MissWaverly]

40. Yes, He would make a great adviser

and ask Bill Clinton if he would be our ambassador to the UN.

[Auntie Bush]

18. I'm impressed with you for being impressed with WES!

In other words- Good for you!

[MissWaverly]

19. Thank you

I really hope there is a debate forum where the candidates debate others on the blog
so that we can have a chance to really review these candidates. I was not impressed
with how the elections on either side have been handled for the last 2 cycles. And
I think the whole convention thing should be rethought, I really want less dance party
and more of a profile of the candidate. Less rhetoric more info.

[capi888]

23. There will always be Conventions..some changes necessary tho

The elections and the lead up to the selection of the candidates, is really up to the voters. The problems is not enough of us speak out. Thanks goodness for DU, however, we need to be doing it in our communities. We cannot just expect things to change unless we do it. That is why I think the blogs are so important...we do get to view the other side. The media is part of the Corporate control and we don't get the truth. They do feel threatened by the blogs now, and that is why they are trying to control the internet. We must let our voices be heard, and VOTE...!! Plus, if the people are appearing near you go to townhouse meetings...i did last cycle and it was very rewarding...helped alot!!

[MissWaverly]

25. well, it's hard I to try to participate locally

but I feel that it's getting away from me, people I have supported for years as local dems
who have been reelected have solidly backed the continued use of Diebold in Maryland which totally pisses me off, but I will try to remain active here in Baltimore.

[capi888]

27. That is why November election is so important

We must turn out in droves....to change at least the House. That is a great possiblity...and that is why WKC is working so hard to get Dems elected. He is everywhere. I see others out also...we need to speak out, we need to not be afraid. Most people really feel the same way we do..2008 won't matter unless we get the Congress house or senate or both...Doomsville...more people voting can correct the corruptions of the machines, then we can get rid or improve them..this in itself is a war of the people ....CT did it, and we should follow their example.

[MissWaverly]

28. Oh, I am VOTING, there is no doubt about that

And I have my democracy bond, and I have sent money to at least 6 people campaigning outside
my state in the last 3 months including Webb and Lamont and Tasini and the woman running
for SOS in Ohio, Bruner, and Strickland for gov in Ohio.

[capi888]

30. I know you are voting, its the ones who don't

I have asked people in stores, in my community , are you registered, after they tell me how discusted they are! (mostly the workers in the store) they say no. I tell them that is the only way things will change...as it is the only hammer we have. I own my own business, and politics don't do well, esp in R town. But, I don't care, my country means more to me. You would be surprized how many open up, and feel the same way, but are afraid to say anything...so I just keep going. :)

[MissWaverly]

33. well, registration is easy

Most places you can just make a phone call; they send you the paperwork and then you're
registered, now that it's getting so late, they would probably have to go to the MVA
and register. I don't trust those registration drives, since I heard that in some states
they find excuses to discard the forms.

[BlueIris]

31. Still a Kerry supporter, but I did have that dream in which Clark

was our nominee, MissWaverly. He looked really nervous and was in a bad mood at the convention, but there he was.

[MissWaverly]

35. well, it could be, even the bad mood

It's going to be tough very tough in 2008. I am really hoping that we make it this time around,
I know we all tried so hard for Kerry but in the end it might be better. I don't see how
Kerry would have made with this extremist, Republican run Congress around his neck, now these
things seem to be falling from their own weight. I read that the big Texas fundraiser for the
RNC backed by Bush only raised 38% of what it did last year.

[BlueIris]

42. Oh, I'm quite satisfied by the outcome of the election last time, as far

as Kerry's status is concerned. Yeah, it breaks my heart that the fraud and media lies keep people from knowing that he is yet another in a long line of Democratic presidents-elect, but...I love John Kerry. So much so that I want to continue to see him well, live. And I didn't want this planet embroiled in a global nuclear war or its aftermath and if Kerry had been recognized as president last time around, I'm quite certain he would no longer be with us and the world would be largely destroyed by this point. However, I'm still pulling for him next time around, as most here know.

But since this is a Clark thread: he would also be a fine president. Uh, yeah, that's all I wanted to post.

[MissWaverly]

44. well, it's early days yet, but you can do a Kerry thread

we should look at them all, all the prospects, after all we all have live with the choice for
4 years.

[brer cat]

50. I agree with you re Kerry. The time is now to discuss the candidates

and try to come up with a winning combination. Kerry was a great choice and I for sure have no regrets supporting him. Thanks for your support for this thread discussing Clark. May the best Dem win in 2008!!

[MissWaverly]

52. I must admit I like talking to other Dems

It always pays to listen to other people's opinions, I learn a lot in these type of threads

[PatrioticOhioLiberal]

37. Wes isn't the nervous type

But an interesting dream to be sure.

[MissWaverly]

39. I saw him on Fox one night

and they did their best to shove their mantra about Iraq and he shoved it right back and said
that the strategy in Iraq had serious problems, there was no rose petals from him on Iraq that
night. And they did their best to steam roll him and he answered right back point for point.
He didn't shout or lose it, he just met them head on and won.

[Donna Zen]

57. Ha ha...

The he said that before he goes on the air the producers try to talk him into giving answers that support bush. He just laughs...although he said that the discussions sometimes get heated.

[MissWaverly]

60. Bully for him

The more I hear the more I like!

:-)

[BlueIris]

41. Relax, I wasn't insinuating that Clark is a "nervous" man generally,

nor am I going to be crying myself to sleep at night if he DOES get nominated. It was just a dream. Some dreams I've had have come true. And in fact, if I can't have Kerry, I want the good general more than I want fucking Feingold, (asshole) Edwards (not ready) or Hillary (doesn't want it yet).

[MissWaverly]

45. Hey, Blue Iris anyone can be nervous

I read that after the 2000 election, they had people surround Gore's house and shout threats
at night. These are evil days and we are all going to have to work to get our country back.
A soldier knows the risks but he goes to battle anyway. My dear neighbor left for Iraq last
Thursday, a week ago.

[PatrioticOhioLiberal]

54. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply

that I thought you were saying he was that type.

Was just making an observation...and pointing out that I thought it was an interesting dream that you had.

Don't mind saying, I hope this is one of your dreams that come true...even nervous Wes Clark would make one hell of a good president.

[Auntie Bush]

78. I'm just curious

Why did you say fucking Feingold, (asshole) ? I hadn't heard anyone feel like that before...so I'm just courious...Why don't you like Feingold? What'd he do/say? :shrug:

[BlueIris]

79. All I can post is...take a closer look at the man.

'Specially that Roberts vote. Someone who is willing to get down with the far right wing of the remaining neo-con sympathizers on that level...ew. And in my opinion, he did it merely to cultivate a more moderate image, in a way the anti-choice conservatives don't even interpret as sincere. That vote was pointless and callous in my eyes. No anti-choicers I know will look to Feingold's cop-out there as a valid endorsement of their "values." There are other things, of course, but if you're looking for one thing I think tells you everything you really need to know about Feingold...there you go. He's a hack.

[Auntie Bush]

83. Thanks for your reply.

I failed to notice that or forgot! I don't follow him and his views as I'm firmly in Clark's camp. I do remember he wanted to impeach bush and was glad of that but, disappointed in the results. That's why I was curious about your comment. Thanks for filling me in as to why.

[FrenchieCat]

85. Auntie Bush, Fiengold was not in the Impeach Bush Camp, but called for

censure....which I have always regarded as "not enough" EVEN if the concept ever had a chance to occur...which it didn't at the time that it was called for.

In fact, I was in the camp that; a call for impeachment or censure could only makes sense If we had close to the actual votes required to get it done, IMO.

Sure in principle, they both sound great (impeachment is something that I would be more than overjoyed to see happen)....and calling for Bush's impeachment, if nothing else, got it into American dialogue for debate...which can't be too bad.

However, I have consistently felt differently about Censure, because in a way it allows folks to think that what Bush has done wasn't that bad if a slap on the hand would suffice as punishment...so in the end Censure wasn't even a principled stance because it didn't address the deeds with a fitting antidote.

That said.....I think that Russ Feingold is a "more than fine" Senator, Just like John Kerry and many others. Feingold is someone that does what he wants, and he is, after-all a practicing politician....and at the end of the day, since politics is a part of the game for those who play.... calculating which positions might earn them popularity with those who would support them is certainly done by all.

However, what took me aback about Feingold was his appearance on TV this Sunday when he earnestly stated that McCain would defeat him in a General Natinal Election! Although many Feingold supporters want to make that statement something that really wasn't what it sounded like....it really did sound like what it sounded like. Admitting defeat prior to any race is ridiculous, and really is a frightening proposition to ever put up a candidate who ever said such a thing.

[MissWaverly]

90. Auntie Bush, not impressed by Feingold on ABC This Week

He said that more people would vote for McCain than him, I don't want a Democratic leader
paying compliment after compliment to the GOP leaders right now. Their bill is overdue,
they have let us down big time since 2000. And I am tired of our Democratic leaders saying
how great they are. They are not great, there is so much corruption it isn't even funny.
Close to 1/2 a millon dollars in food bill, was run up by border security ordering food
off the internet instead of having an operational canteen. Or how about Homeland Security
buying 22,000 designer dog booties, or boats bought by FEMA that sailed away for private
use.

[Donna Zen]

48. He's got the goods

Dr. Marian Frances Berry (Head of the US Commission on Civil Rights) used those words when she endorsed General Clark. She said that she had checked with everyone she knew about every issue.

Yes, Wes Clark is a doer.

Whatever he decides to do with his future is fine with me. I'm very greatful that such a leader has come forward during some of our darkest days. In 2001 when I yearned for a leader...Clinton...anyone...someone to use the mic and lead the charge, no one appeared. Someone told me that we would find our own leaders. Well, never would I have believed that a Four Star would stand up for us. Amazing.

[MissWaverly]

53. well, I read a scathing review of Bush in a military magazine

At first, I could not understand, but then I realized that the military have been at the heart of our failed policies for the last 6 years; they know better than us what is at stake
and what is at risk and I think Clark knows this as well.

From the article: Lame Duck of Destruction

Perhaps this is why the administration is working so hard to legally preserve frozen embryos and the comatose. They have no memory, no intellect, and no ability to judge the grandiose hypocrisy of George W. Bush. They stand alone, the only ones on the planet who do not recognize the outrageous contempt this administration has for the lives and safety of Americans, and just about everyone else.

http://www.militaryweek.com/columns/withoutreservation.php?id=45

[Texas_Kat]

55. "...a kind of growling, low-grade rage..."

You are exactly right.

From a reporter at the Washington Post during the 04 campaign....

Wes Clark does not like what George Bush has done with Wes Clark's Army. Make no mistake: It's his Army.

He can hardly go a sentence without mentioning the military -- and how, in his mind, Bush has abused it. He sent it to war precipitously and then used its men and women as "props," he says. Clark's sincerity on this point is patent.

In a conversation on his campaign plane, he suddenly turned intense, a kind of growling, low-grade rage that lifted my nose from my note-taking.

His Army has been abused.

[Donna Zen]

56. His eyes get dark...

Yep. After Wes Clark's first "turn around" of a base, he was tasked with rewriting all of the training manuals. He even wrote (iirc) an annual review for officers that would be done by those serving under them. No one thought it would fly...it did.

The General has never seemed like a person who carries regrets. But ya gotta wonder after all of those birthdays, and kids' ball games he missed, how he feels watching his work be torn to shreds. Reading his book, a question that kept running through my mind was: does he sleep and is he ever home. I know now that the answer to both of those questions was "not much."

The Army: misused and abused.

[MissWaverly]

61. well, some carry a heavy load

my boss sometimes looks after the critically ill, and I swear that no one moves as fast as her.
Some people really have a life's vocation and it seems to lift them up and make them stronger.
They say that you save the universe if you only save 1 person.

[MissWaverly]

59. I was angry myself, after the 04 inaugural

remember the fancy dinner where they had invited the veterans, well they came from all over
the country and went, they were used as props, they were there for hours with no food
or drink while the rich elite partied on.

[JAbuchan08]

58. NED LAMONT FOR PRESIDENT

just kidding

[MissWaverly]

62. Well, maybe, in the future, he does have impressive qualities

but not much real political experience, we'll see.

[PBass]

63. Wes Clark is great when he appears on FOX news...

I've seen him take Sean Hannity to school, and make Hannity look utterly foolish.

I have to disagree that Clark would be "wasted" as Vice President... lets face it, we are going to need top-notch people in every position. Personally, I would be pleased to see a Dem ticket with Clark for president, and Hillary for VP. But that's going off-topic.

The VP role has been expanded under Bush/Cheney and also Clinton/Gore. The VP office is more relevant now than ever. Wes Clark could do a heck of a lot of good things, as our VP.

[MissWaverly]

64. Wes Clark has the skills and a proven service record

[capi888]

65. Great job MissWaverly..

Just checked this thread from yesterday....This is how political discussions should be like. Kudos to all who participated. I am off for awhile but will check back. Thanks for the great discussion.

[MissWaverly]

66. You are welcome

I would like to see more threads like this, it went well

[FrenchieCat]

67. Dear MissWaverly,

I agree that with everything else equal, one should be impressed with Wes Clark, if for no other reason, the fact that rather than "read the writing on the wall" in order to articulates a position, Wes Clark writes the writing on the wall that others end up readin'!

To make a long story short (which I never do! LOL!), Wes Clark is a leader who seems to understands "what is" long before it is conventional wisdom, and in my book, that's the kind of leader America truly needs to guide us through these very difficult times. Someone who knows how to analyze and understand the ramification of possible events long before they happen, as opposed to after-the-fact.

We desperately need a leader who Acts rather than Reacts!

Examples as to what I mean--

On August 2, 2002, Clark said, regarding a possible invasion of Iraq, "We seem to have skipped some steps in the logic of the debate. And, as the American people are brought into this, they're asking these questions." CNN, 8/2/02

On August 29, 2002, Clark said regarding a proposed invasion of Iraq, "Well, taking it to the United Nations doesn't put America's foreign policy into the hands of the French. What you have to do as the United States is you have to get other nations to commit and come in with you, and so you've got to provide the evidence, and the convincing of the French and the French public, and the leadership elite. Look, there's a war fever out there right now in some quarters of some of the leadership elements in this country, apparently, because I keep hearing this sense of urgency and so forth. Where is that coming from? The vice president said that today he doesn't know when they're going to get nuclear weapons. They've been trying to get nuclear weapons for -- for 20 years.So if there's some smoking gun, if there's some really key piece of information that hasn't been shared publicly, maybe they can share it with the French." CNN, 8/29/02

On August 29, 2002, Clark said, regarding a possible invasion of Iraq and its aftermath, "I think -- but I think that underneath, what you're going to have is you're going to have more boiling in the street. You're going to have deeper anger and you're going to feed the recruitment efforts of Al Qaeda. And this is the key point, I think, that we're at here. The question is what's the greater threat? Three thousand dead in the World Trade Center and the Pentagon underscore the fact that the threat we're facing primarily is Al Qaeda. We have to work the Iraq problem around dealing with Al Qaeda. And the key thing about dealing with Al Qaeda is, we can't win that war alone." CNN, 8/29/02

On August 29, 2002, Clark said, regarding a possible invasion of Iraq, "My perspective would be I'd like to see us slow down the rush to go after Saddam Hussein unless there's some clear convincing evidence that we haven't had shared with the public that he's right on the verge of getting nuclear weapons. CNN, 8/29/02

On August 30, 2002, Clark said, regarding a possible invasion of Iraq, "Going after Iraq right now is at best a diversion, and at worst it risks the possibility of strengthening Al Qaeda and undercutting our coalition at a critical time. So at the strategic level, I think we have to keep our eye on the ball and focus on the number one strategic priority. There are a lot of other concerns as well, but that's the main one." CNN, 8/30/02

On August 30, 2002, Clark said, regarding a possible invasion of Iraq, "It seems that way to me. It seems that this would supercharge the opinion, not necessarily of the elites in the Arab world, who may bow to the inevitability of the United States and its power, but the radical groups in the Middle East, who are looking for reasons and gaining more recruits every time the United States makes a unilateral move by force. They will gain strength from something like this. We can well end up in Iraq with thousands of military forces tied down, and a worse problem in coping with a war on terror here in the United States or Europe, or elsewhere around the world." CNN, 8/30/02

September 16, 2002:
Clark said Congress shouldn't give a "blank check," to Use Force Against Iraq.

On September 16, 2002, Clark said, regarding Iraq and possible Congressional authorization to use force, "Don't give a blank check. Don't just say, you are authorized to use force. Say what the objectives are. Say what the limitations are, say what the constraints and restraints are. What is it that we, the United States of America, hope to accomplish in this operation?" CNN 9/16/02

WOODRUFF: How much difference does it make, the wording of these resolution or resolutions that Congress would pass in terms of what the president is able to do after?

CLARK: I think it does make a difference because I think that Congress, the American people's representatives, can specify what it is they hope that the country will stand for and what it will do.

So I think the -- what people say is, don't give a blank check. Don't just say, you are authorized to use force. Say what the objectives are. Say what the limitations are, say what the constraints and restraints are. What is it that we, the United States of America, hope to accomplish in this operation.

And I think that the support will be stronger and it will be more reliable and more consistent if we are able to put the specifics into the resolution.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0209/16/ip.00.html

On September 23, 2002, Clark said, regarding Iraq and possible Congressional authorization for the use of force, "When you're talking about American men and women going and facing the risk we've been talking about this afternoon... you want to be sure that you're using force and expending American blood and lives in treasure as the ultimate last resort. Not because of a sense of impatience with the arcane ways of international institutions." Senate Committee on Armed Forces 9/23/02
http://armedservices.house.gov/openingstatementsandpressreleases/107thcongress/02-09-26clark.html

On October 5, 2002, Clark said, regarding debate on Congressional authorization for war against Iraq, "The way the debate has emerged, it's appeared as though to the American people, at least to many that talk to me, as though the administration jumped to the conclusion that it wanted war first and then the diplomacy has followed." CNN 10/5/02

On January 23, 2003, Clark said, regarding the case the United States had made for war against Iraq to the United Nations, "There are problems with the case that the U.S. is making, because the U.S. hasn't presented publicly the clear, overwhelming sense of urgency to galvanize the world community to immediate military action now."CNN 1/23/03
http://www.clark04.com/faq/iraq.html

-----------
There were some of our prominent leaders who chose to listen to the wise words of Wes Clark, and reacted the better for it!

Here's is Ted Kennedy on Larry King pretty recently....

KING: Why did you vote against?

KENNEDY: Well, I'm on the Armed Services Committee and I was inclined to support the administration when we started the hearings in the Armed Services Committee. And, it was enormously interesting to me that those that had been -- that were in the armed forces that had served in combat were universally opposed to going.

I mean we had Wes Clark testify in opposition to going to war at that time. You had General Zinni. You had General (INAUDIBLE). You had General Nash. You had the series of different military officials, a number of whom had been involved in the Gulf I War, others involved in Kosovo and had distinguished records in Vietnam, battle-hardened combat military figures. And, virtually all of them said no, this is not going to work and they virtually identified...

KING: And that's what moved you?

KENNEDY: And that really was -- influenced me to the greatest degree. And the second point that influenced me was in the time that we were having the briefings and these were classified. They've been declassified now. Secretary Rumsfeld came up and said "There are weapons of mass destruction north, south, east and west of Baghdad." This was his testimony in the Armed Services Committee.

And at that time Senator Levin, who is an enormously gifted, talented member of the Armed Services Committee said, "Well, we're now providing this information to the inspectors aren't we?" This is just before the war. "Oh, yes, we're providing that." "But are they finding anything?" "No."
snip
There were probably eight Senators on the Friday before the Thursday we voted on it. It got up to 23. I think if that had gone on another -- we had waited another ten days, I think you may have had a different story.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/20/lkl.01.html

and Sen. Levin, who showed up with Clark at a WesPAC fundraiser a few months ago....here's what he said on the floor of the Senate BEFORE THE IWR VOTE when he submitted his own resolution THAT WASN'T A BLANK CHECK...:

"General Clark, the former NATO Supreme Allied Commander, who testified at the same hearing, echoed the views of General Shalikashvili and added "we need to be certain we really are working through the United Nations in an effort to strengthen the institution in this process and not simply checking a block."
http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/10.05B.levin.dont.p.htm

and the late great Sen. Paul Wellstone–
“As General Wes Clark, former Supreme Commander of Allied Forces in Europe has recently noted, a premature go-it-alone invasion of Iraq "would super-charge recruiting for Al Qaida."
http://www.wellstone.org/news/news_detail.aspx?itemID=2778&catID=298

[MissWaverly]

70. thank you, this has been very insightful

and I am going to go on his website to further read up on his policies, I do like the fact
that he doesn't think that Congress should provide a "blank check" but stated goals and
objectives to the president; this sounds like someone who will not be make signing statements
to govern but will realize the oversight function of Congress.

[FrenchieCat]

68. ....and further more! (of course....LOL!)

In reference to "thinking out of the box", read this posting which discusses an article that Wes Clark wrote back in September of 2001 (3 days after 9/11), and tell me whether this might have been a better approach in dealing with the 9/11 attacks from jump street!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=122187

Sure, many agreed with what we ended up doing, going to Afghanistan, and Wes certainly felt that approach "could" work .....BUT, my point was that he was not timid in coming up with approaches on what to do while so many were still singing Kumbaya on the steps of Capital Hill!

[MissWaverly]

69. Believe it or not that's what I thought at the time

Go after the money, follow the money to it's source and deal with it, hold an investigation,
and validate who backed these idiots and go after them. Deal with the support network
and collaborators but do so with real evidence and rely on cooperation of the nations of
origin for the terrorists.

[zcflint09]

72. Wes is a true leader and the biggest asset the Democratic Party has.

I don't know why this guy isn't our target 08 canidate right now. No legistlative record, has a proven track record as a supporter of all Democrats great and small, and his tact and intellect in regards to foreign policy, diplomacy and military matters makes him really appealing to me and I think his leadership is perfectly suited to the world we're in right now.

[trillian]

73. We'll have the best shot at the WH with Wes

I hope the Democratic electorate recognise this.

Wes has the BEST chance of beating any Rethug.....even McCain.

Polls show that Americans want someone experienced in National Security....someone who makes them feel safe.

[bobbie]

74. I think General Clark is among the best people we have for public service

And I have it on good authority (Charlie Rangel) that he's in it for the long haul.

At this point it seems like a remote dream though that people of Clark's caliber (Gore, Kucinich, Conyers) will ever be allowed in positions of real power. He's not under anyone's thumb, he's sincere,
and he's incredibly smart and appealing, therefore he's dangerous to the insiders.

[ima_sinnic]

75. I love Wes Clark and would support him 100% for whatever office

--President, or Secretary of State, he'd be terrific, well-spoken, insightful, compassionate, diplomatic, highly intelligent, wise, courageous. The People are the losers if this wonderful man is not allowed to be in some capacity of leadership.

[nealmhughes]

76. President, VP who actually presides over the Democratic Caucus,

Sec. of State, Roving Ambassador at Large, UN Ambassador, Sec. of Anything... Head of Columbia University after retirement or U. Chicago or if he wants to go west, Stanford...you name it. This man is too young to be put to pasture. A talent which ought to be shared with more than readers.

[MissWaverly]

77. Note to everybody

I have saved this thread under my journal, Miss Waverly, now if you want to find it, go to
journals look under Miss Waverly and you'll see it, I'll keep it up for a while, so you can
refer to it if you need it. Also you might want to read some of my other posts while you are
there.

Thanks
Miss Waverly

:-)

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FrenchieCat]

81. Could you also renovate my bathroom?

Lord knows, it needs it! LOL!

[robcon]

82. Moore sounds like a real beaut!

I wouldn't vote for him for dogcatcher, but he's got ideas!

[MissWaverly]

88. just remember Karl Marx and his well meaning ideas

From each according to his ability and to each according to his need.

Which turned into maintaining the fatcats at the top with starvation wages and benefits for
those at the bottom.

[MissWaverly]

87. I dunno, it sounds like socialism to me

I think that instead of trying to come up with a whole new deal which is very difficult;
we should study other places for programs like health care and try to propose a system
that is working somewhere else. Bush is great on taking theory and making it policy and look
where it's got us. I must admit I never heard of Frank Moore and anybody that I want in government has to have a proven track record of public service.

[kwolf68]

86. Also a big fan of Clark

Not my #1 guy, but we sure could do worse. He's a brilliant man with a record of impeccable accomplishment. It's a sad state of affairs when we have people like bush and FUDick leading the nation while Clark is merely left to commentate on the affairs he should be helping shape.

[MissWaverly]

91. I want someone with the RIGHT STUFF

Individuals like John Glenn, (meaning fully functioning adults), went to the moon, they knew the risks, they made the sacrifices and they got the job done. That's what I want as president. I don't want someone who says they smoked but didn't inhale
or define is. I want someone who carries the load, I do not want another liar-in-chief or
vacationer-in-chief. I want the individual in the White House who serves as president
to ALWAYS show respect for the office and show respect for all the people of this nation
whatever their race, color or creed or party affiliation.

[David Zephyr]

92. He's the Democrat That Can Win a General Election.

Wes will carry all of the states Gore took (remember Kerry lost Gore states in 2004).

Plus, Wes will carry Arkansas, Louisiana and West Virgina easily. These make winning Florida irrelevant.

Wes will also probably take Missouri and a lot of other red states including Oklahoma where he won the Democratic Primary against Kerry, by the way.

[MissWaverly]

93. I think that he would speak to the voters

Kerry has many good qualities but he tends to explain things down to the last millisecond
which is beyond most voters. I think that voters will relate to Clark and see him as someone
who can represent their views.

[David Zephyr]

97. I agree.

:thumbsup:

[Donna Zen]

94. The military vote

Retired and active military with their families comprise about 56 million voters. Because of the basing, many of these voters reside in western and southern states. Kerry might have carried more of this vote except for the Swiftboating. We don't need all of it, we just need an additional 5%.

Clark's problem has never been winning the GE, it has always been about the nomination.

[MissWaverly]

95. Hey, we need all the votes we can

I want it to be beyond stealing of the vote rigged machines, did you see where documents
related to the cover-up of the investment loss by the Ohio Bureau of Workmen's Count, also discuss plans on stopping the recount in Ohio, this was in October before the election. How did they know there was going to be a recount and as state officials what authority did they have to stop it. I am tired of this rigging of democracy.

[David Zephyr]

96. Well said.

"Clark's problem has never been winning the GE, it has always been about the nomination."

So how do we get the Democratic Party to back a winner?

How do we get the ambitious Clintons to check their egos?

It won't be easy.

[MissWaverly]

98. Well, I know that but I am hoping we can do that here

I remember my nephew crying for an ice cream cone as he was eating one. I said no, you have
to learn to appreciate what you have. They had eight years in the White House; that's
enough. We need to make our leaders realize that's it's not about their needs but that's
it's about what's best for America and if they haven't figured that out by now; they
don't deserve to be in the White House. I think these blogs are a blessing in that they are giving the everyday American a voice when it's sorely needed.

[FrenchieCat]

99. One of the things that I appreciate about Wes is that he does

Blog both at his own website, as well as others....and actually stays on line to answer questions from us! He understands and respects the power of blogging...heck, he remembers that it was the internet that was key to his last run.....from the onset!
(just a couple of examples here)

http://securingamerica.com/ccn/node/7469

http://www.crooksandliars.com/posts/2006/06/16/wesley-clark-at-yearly-kos/

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/6/12/135417/204

http://www.awesclarkdemocrat.com/2006/07/wes_clark_live_blogging_today.htm

[MissWaverly]

100. no pie in the sky for him

and he dukes it out on Fox, which is not for the squeamish, I listen to Alan Colmes alone
on Siriius radio; that's about as close as I can get to them.

[blm]

101. Kerry won over 10m MORE votes in 2004 - and the machines stole another 5m

so I wouldn't bother with your spin since the ONLY Dem who CAN win is the one who works with or FORCES the DNC to secure the machines BEFORE the election.

Because any of the Dems CAN win - it's a matter of whether the machines will tell us the truth about the vote AFTERWARDS.

[FrenchieCat]

102. I think we all understand what John Kerry won more votes......

and I am very thankful to John Kerry for proposing a bill in congress to deal with centralizing voting systems that are verifiable and secure and for speaking on this non-stop since election 2004! :patriot:


Here's is Wes' take on what we can do until we are in the majority (at which time we will be able call to make voting systems identical and verifiable/secure in each state)--

PodCast: August 8, 2006
ClarkCast 020 - Election Integrity
http://securingamerica.com/clarkcasts

He also requests participation on this subject on his blog for input!

[MissWaverly]

105. I don't think Wes Clark would concede in a rigged election

This has to be concerted effort like Obrador is doing in Mexico, you cannot win against ruthless people when you are "nice" and expect them to hand it to you. We have to
have someone who opposes the GOP who's a fighter and will not cave into to Rove, Fox News
and the neocons.

[blm]

108. Are you trying to make the point that Wes would NOT have conceded in 2004

because he knew the vote was rigged?

Can you please clarify? I hadn't heard that he made a statement about the 2004 election being stolen.

[MissWaverly]

110. see post from Daily Kos on election tampering

Wes Clark: we need to save American democracy!
by Reality Bites Back
Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 12:42:54 PM PDT

If ever the Democratic Party found itself closer to the precipice of nonexistence, there is one sherpa with the instinct to reach deep into the haze of the darkening blizzard and pull us through to a sunlit summit: Wes Clark. Am I biased? Hell yeah! Because he's got the best resume EVER? No. Because he's got Clintonian charisma? No. Because I was fortunate to stand face to face with the General and hear what echoes in the depths of his brilliant mind for 3 solid hours, and let me tell you, with every fiber of my being - this man could be the Cincinnatus of the modern world.

Later in the evening, he also personally expressed to me his concern about the integrity of the voting machines, the discrepancies of the optical tabulators, Republican led voter suppression, and complete awareness of county level irregularities. It's on his mind. Believe me. He knows what's at stake and he's not afraid to say it.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/2/5/154255/4964

[blm]

111. But he didn't know it THEN, the night of the election.

And he wouldn't have had a Dem party that believed in it at ALL, would he?

[GUYMAN]

103. Wes Clark

Guy from NJ here. I'm a big Clark supporter, had the pleasure
of meeting him at an event here recently. He has both the
character and the knowledge to lead this country. In terms of
regaining our standing in the world he is particularly well
qualified. Even when I occasionally disagree with him on an
issue you can tell he thinks things out and is open to
changing his mind based on the facts or changes that come up,
etc.

[JohMunich99]

104. Clark/Obama 2008

Talk about a dream team! I wasn't that big on Clark at first, but he's just amazing.

[MissWaverly]

106. I don't know about Obama, what's he really done????

He's an eloquent speaker, he's still in his first term as Senator, what has he done which is
really impressive. When has he really fought against TeamBush since he was elected.
Inquiring minds want to know.

[JohMunich99]

107. LOL what did Edwards ever do

You said it yourself though, he's a freshman Senator so he can't try to be the voice of the party too much. Obama has a great vote record though and while many people say that the VP candidate can't help out that much, Obama being the first African-American Vice-President would increase voter registration and volunteer activity.

[MissWaverly]

109. look I understand what you are saying BUT I have a problem

with that, I didn't say that I was nominating John Edwards, either. We already had someone in
the oval office who is inexperienced, we have had this since 2000. I could post a million examples, like the "Pee Pass" at the UN that point to inexperience. I believe Obama may be
qualified to run after 3 terms as Senator BUT I feel that the time for amateur hour in the
White House is over and after our experience since 2000 with both the president and the VP,
I say we choose someone who has been tested, someone that we know can stand up under pressure
with Putin or in another terror attack. I seem to remember reading in Clarke's book Against
All Enemies that Cheney was in charge in the White House on 9-11. If it happens again, I want
to know that both of these individuals are experienced with proven credentials in public service.

[lisainmilo]

112. Gore/Clark ( or as secretary of state)

Thats my wish, my prayer, my hope and my dream! VP choice? O bama? Dean? Clinton?

[invictus]

113. The more I read about Clark, the more I like him. n/t