Not everything is a conspiracy. Not everything is the genius of KKKarl

[Stinky The Clown]

The world is a nuanced place. There is little that's black and little that's white. Something can 'seem' to be one thing and turn out to be a whole other thing.

Specualtion is okay when its kept within reason.

Skepticism is more than healthy.

Some things are exactly what they seem to be. Some things are not.

I'll start with a rhetorical broad question. Is it possible that a government would risk, or even end, the lives of a relative few of its own citizens for some nefarious gain? The answer is an unhedged 'yes'.

But what's possible is often very different from what's real.

Look back on the events of late week.

Scotland Yard busted a ring of suspected airline bombers.

The world's air travelers were put on lockdown and Heather couldn't take her suntan lotion on vacation.

Cause and effect? An unqualified 'yes'.

But I will tell you that I absolutely cringe when I hear people say - as if it were fact - that this was all a political sham to turn the 06 midterms to the Republicans.

There is no evidence of that. In fact, it simply defies logic, based on what we know so far.

What about the events might actually be true?

How about this?

The bust was real and was the result of good police work on the part of Scotland Yard. As an aside, there is strong evidence (but so far no confirmation) that the US was actually cut out of the investigation until just a few days or weeks ago.

Once it hit, the Busholinis, as they always do, considered it through the filter of how to use it for political gain.

Because it was used for political gain in no way makes the underlying case a matter of conspiracy.

Again ... is itr possible it was all a conspiracy? Yes. Is it likely? I'd say no. Should you think about the possibility that it was a conspiracy? Yes. Shoujld you postulate that it was as if that postulation were fact? No. And if you do, until you have irrefutable fact (not some circumstantial peripheral evidence) you do our side a grave disservice.

Do I know I'm right on this? Well, no I don't. But in the absence of any hard evidence to the contrary, I'll assume I am.

That assumption in no way is in support of the Busholinis. I think they were craven, disrespectful, and criminal in their reaction. I just don't think they caused or steered the underlying case.

I also see this latest spate of conspiracy theories as one more object lesson. We like to say we're part of the reality based world. If we want to continue to say that, we need to act like we mean it.

Should we investigate? Of course. And if we had the power to do so, we would.

So let's work toward that. By getting real.

No, I'm not saying **any** conspiracy theory is wrong. You see, until there's hard evidence, things remain theories and if the theory involves two or more persons colluding, we have conspiracy to go with the theory. What *is* wrong is presenting them as fact and then proceeding as if it were fact.

[JohnnyLib]

1. hurray for nuance

Thanks! We seem to need this reminder in the age of constant "spin".

[NYCGirl]

2. Recommended! NT

[katmondoo]

3. I wait two weeks before deciding

It seems to take two weeks for some of the truth to come out,I remain skeptical until then.

[acmavm]

4. That's true. But what is also true is the manipulation of this bust by the

republicans to make it look like they are responsible for it, that they are the only party that can competently handle situations like this, and that blivet deserves the credit for it.

There's another thread here on how the GOA, FBI, DHS, etc., have been warning this administration about exactly the same scenario that played out for day and they have been ignored and nothing was ever said or done UNTIL NOW.

And that's where KKKarl probably steps into the picture. He's probably the head of a committee designed to play this legit bust out for all its worth, and to try to turn it around on dems and say 'hey, with dems in charge 40 airplanes would have dropped out of the sky and into the ocean'.

And to top it ALL off, the Brits were the ones who busted these people. In fact, although I do need an update, it looks like once again that loose lips of this administration prevented the arrest of all the culprits.

Oh yeah, what's the scoop about the one that was supposedly released from custody.

I just got home. Had to take my mom down to the Old Market for the Farmer's Market that's down there on Saturday. My Mom can barely walk, uses a cane, and is hard of hearing. Put her in a crowded area with some of the absolutely rudest people I've ever seen and you've got the perfect recipe for a nervous breakdown. I am totally amazed at how thoughtlessly and callously some people treat the elderly and the handicapped. (Sorry I hijacked your thread there for a minute. Just had to explain my possible incoherence.)

[BeatleBoot]

5. I would agree.

I'm so glad they busted those bungholes in England. I hope they get the maximum punishment.

Did the Bushies try to spin it to their political gain?

You bet your sweet bippy they did.

Did it work?

I don't think so. Polls are saying Bush is back down to 33%.

They are beating that 9-11 pony until it doesn't give anymore.

That's all they have left.

As Jonathan alter said this past week, "All they have to use is - fear itself".

Conspiracy? Highly doubtful.

[mmonk]

6. In the meantime, it will be used to smear

good people seeking political office to hold the current government accountable. That is the part that is not nuanced. That is the part that is a threat to our democracy.

[napi21]

7. I like your thinking. I agree, until more facts are known, it's wrong

for us to jump to the conclusion that the whole thing was a farce. I do believe we also should not take the current reports as total fact!

I remember how I hated the Pubs for constantly saying BC was doing everything to steer attention away from Monica, and that when he bombed a building thought to be manufacturing weapons but turned out to be an aspring factory, they called it wag the dog! I DON'T want to be LIKE THEM!

[JuniperLea]

8. They've lied so much

I think it folly to assume they ever tell the truth.

[Odin2005]

9. You should be open-minded, but not so much you let your brain fall out.

A quote from either Carl Sagan or Richard Dawkins (can't remember which one).

[Stinky The Clown]

11. Exactly

[pooja]

10. I think it was sensationalized by kkkarl... but that the events

may have been transpiring. It seems that there was infiltration into this group. That the cell was monitored and that when the airline tickets were bought or what not, the british authorities swept in. I don't think dumping all liquids was necesary. I think that they caught it all in time and that there was no reason to heighten security the way that they did.

[sgxnk]

12. exactly.

massive clapping

this is a great victory. but nobody here dare even CONSIDER that, because that is seen as giving fuel to the other side

which is classic ideology over facts. which is wrong when the religious right does it (see: intelligent design) but apparently ok, here.

double standards. it's what's for breakfast

[mmonk]

13. Facts are understood to be facts

after verification. The government has told us lies before and the media has reported those lies as fact. Therefore trust only through verification.

[sgxnk]

23. except

the basic argument here is this

EITHER it's all a lie

or they weren't REALLY a threat

etc.

and every possible negative iteration ***EXCEPT***

wow, we thwarted a terrible terrorist attack. bully for us

any speculation is fine, EXCEPT the most obvious, and most supported by evidence - that the UK leo community, with help from the US stopped a bunch of terrorists

see: cognitive dissonance

nobody here likes the blair or the bush govt. HENCE they cannot be given credit for anything

it's pure politics over facts. it is pure bald double standard partisanship

bush (and) blair have done some lame-a** stuff. but apparently, one can NEVER congratulate blair - now that he's bush's "lapdog" or whatnot

you could 16 millions points of data,and people here would still try to explain away a great victory.

it is the opposite of defending the indefensible but equally as absurd

[notadmblnd]

14. what works, I guess.

All any of us are capable of doing here on this board is question and speculation. We are unable to proceed in doing anything let alone presenting theories as fact. In my mind there is no evidence that this was a credable threat other than what our government has told us to believe. We know we've been lied to before by this administration and it has lost all credability with many of us. Why should I believe them now? Does anyone think for one moment that the only way that the "terrorist" want to or could hurt us with is planes? The possiblilties for acts of terrorism in this country is limitless and any number of them could be carried out using much less resources (money, materials, logistics, planning,and people sacrificed) than it takes to plan a airline highjacking and bombing. These people may be willing to die, but do the really want to? Everything in our beings is geared toward survival. So I find myself asking, why aren't these evil people wreaking more havoc in less fatal (for them) ways? I don't see any of it happening, and after witnessing the actions of our Gov't after hurricane Katrina, I don't for one minute believe that our government has gotten so good at preventing attacks that it make it impossible for the terrorists to act. The point I think is.. is that we are now very familiar with the BFEE's M.O., there is evidence, in fact, there have been investigations concerning the staging of media events in the past. This incident stinks to high heaven of the BFEE's SOP's. At this point, I really can't understand how after five years of their half truths and outright lying, people still believe unquestioningly anything that comes from our government via the media.

[Totally Committed]

15. I agree... about 95%. The rest is skepticism, pure and simple.

I just can't make any part of my brain trust these people.

And, I do think it was timed and used to further their politics:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2775206

The people that really need to "get real", though, are the ones who are still ready to vote for the Bushies, and/or fall for these cynical scare-tactics time after time.

TC

[inthebrain]

16. Nobody has shouted conspiracy!!!!!

That's ridiculous and it hasn't happened as far as I've seen. But there are certain facts here that cannot be ignored.

1) As Bush goes down in flames, so does Toni Blair. I don't think anyone denys that.

2) They were watching these guys not for weeks, MONTHS!!!!

There are some things going here that just reek of psychogicla warfare. If you follow what folks like Chertoff and Mehlman are saying to the press it's very easy to catch.

Also, keeping in mind the fact that they knew about these guys for months, the timing is suspicious. Especiall when you take into account that this group had nothing planned the day they ran the bust. There was no reason what-so-ever to raise the alert level.

We've seen this before. The admission of Tom Ridge is fucking damning!!!

The Republicans are going to save their furor by keeping the public scared. Conservatives rule through spreading fear and that's also how they pull off elections.

[Stinky The Clown]

17. Thanks for the insight

:eyes:

By the way .... its 'Tony'. 'Toni' would have more curves.

Now back to your post. Did you even bother to read the OP?

[inthebrain]

19. I responded to this

<<<<<But I will tell you that I absolutely cringe when I hear people say - as if it were fact - that this was all a political sham to turn the 06 midterms to the Republicans.

There is no evidence of that. In fact, it simply defies logic, based on what we know so far.>>>>>

And offered you facts. I have not seen anyone offer up and Area 51, Roswell, Grassyknoll or Controlled Demolitions type conspiracy theory. Those of us that followed Lamont's defeat of Lieberman all followed the talking points coming from the right.

Many of us (Not on this board) saw this coming!!!! We knew the alert level were going up based on what Tom Ridge stated following the 04 elections. We also knew (and it panned out) that there were some suspects waiting in the wings to be arrested or some plot to be uncovered.

It's consistent with everything they've done. Even Keith Olbermann has called their bluff on this.

[inthebrain]

25. ""What about the events might actually be true?""

I can consider whether the events might be true.

But there is also the concept of "innocense before guilt". In retrospect, it is not up to me to prove or consider that these "suspects" are guilty. It is up to the government/prosesecuters to do that beyond a reasonable doubt. With this fear campaign "better that 10 guilty men go free than 1 innocent man be sent to prison" has severely gotten lost.

Giult has to be proven first and all I've seen from the media/government officials is conflicting testimony as to what is going on.

That is common sense and reality based. Reality based people, who have an undertanding of history and tyranical governments, understand how "terrorism" has often been used to jail innocent people.

[Stinky The Clown]

28. You're talking about guilt or innocence ... did I miss the trial?

All *I* said is true is that Scotland Yard busted an alleged terrorist ring.

Busting is one thing.

Guilt is a matter for courts.

[Rhiannon12866]

18. K&R. Well thought out.

Thanks for putting all this in some kind of perspective. I agree, though I'm skeptical of everything that I hear, these days...:-)

[Stinky The Clown]

20. I bet I'm *at least* as skeptical as you

And that's very healthy.

Thanks for the K&R!

[Rhiannon12866]

21. I feel frustrated because I know we can never know the truth about

anything, these days. We've been lied to way too many times. So I remain skeptical. But sometimes things are just as they seem. It's bound to happen, once or twice...:eyes:

And you're more than welcome. Thanks for the thoughtful and sensible post in these days of rampant speculation...:crazy:

Rhiannon:hi:

[bobthedrummer]

22. With strategic influence, perception management, PSYOPS etc.

reality and truth are denied/ignored, even "healthy skepicism" is manipulated.

Here are some DU discussions on this fact.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1450222#top

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x71919#top

[Stinky The Clown]

24. All possibilities .....

.... maybe even strong possibilities ....... but not proven facts as they relate to today.

[Tin Man]

26. K & R n/t

[crispini]

27. K&R nt