The big hole in the "I would have done the war different' argument

[Stinky The Clown]

I'm going to start with a rational stance. Not left or right, moderate or liberal. Just rational.

In the run-up to the war, it could be argued - even in the face of the contrary evidence many us knew then and now to be true - that voting for the IWR (no one ever really voted 'for the war') based on what was then known was an honest call.

Fast forward a bit. That stupid statue was yanked down by military heavy equipment operators. The missing WMD was still playing an active game of 'Hide and Seek' and public sentiment was with Il Dunce more than against him. Some claimed along the same lines as John Kerry that they voted for it before they voted against it, or some other such twisted argument. Okay. However inartful and perhaps triangulated, we knew what they meant. But there were some who simply said, still, it was the right thing to do.

The facts on the ground continued to change. More and more the whole damned thing was turning until a shitstorm. 'I would have done it differently' was coming up as a popular refrain of those who fear the wrath of the right wing talkers. Okay, fine. But some were still saying that it was the right thing to do.

The shitstorm would now be seem as a welcome respite from the current civil war that has devolved in Iraq. More and more sane people who formerly, in some way or another, supported the war were saying, in one way or another, 'I was wrong'. Or 'I was misled'.

Today there can be NO mistake. The whole damned thing, from the very start was just dead-assed wrong. Anyone who holds to their earlier views and continues to rty to defend them has nothing left.

It is just too late for these people to repent and repudiate their earlier statements and earlier stances.

For someone now to either continue to support the war shows how out of touch with fact and reality they are.

And for someone to wait until now to say they were wrong is stupid. How can they possibly think anyone will see that as anything more than pandering for votes?

In the beginning, they could have been forgiven.

In the middle, they might still ahve been forgiven.

Now? Sorry people, that train left the station long ago.

[hobbit709]

1. "I would have done the war different'

An illegal war run any other way is STILL an illegal war. That's the real point.

[Guaranteed]

7. Illegal/immoral is important- the war was WRONG. HOWEVER-

the biggest issue to me is that invading Iraq was simply STUPID, through and through. It was a bad idea, no matter the execution. They...didn't...threaten...us. It just didn't make any sense to waste financial resources, political capital, our reputation and our soldier's lives on a war that didn't need to happen.

And, yes, it was morally repugnant.

[leveymg]

2. Take Hil, for instance.

Her performance the other day against Rummy was magnificent. Way too late to be anything but grandstanding. But, magnificent.

She didn't earn a whole lot of cred with that one.

[Stinky The Clown]

9. Exactly! And one of the central points of this post

And note: This post is not about any one politico. It is about a whole shitload of politicos.

[The_Casual_Observer]

3. The best that jr can do now is to deny that there is a civil war

going on. It's a far cry from the neocon goal of US supremacy in the ME isn't it?

[mike_c]

4. "I would have done it differently" was just another manifestation...

...of the incredible belief that disagreeing with the right wing about the fundamental illogic behind the war would somehow reverberate with negative consequences. That is the same belief that led apologists for IWR supporters to insist that it would have been "political suicide" to vote against the authorization, in the face of precisely the opposite reality. It's the same belief that underpins the argument that the war itself was ultimately good because it removed Saddam, never mind that the patient had to be killed in order to cure the fever. It's the same illogic that props up the Pottery Barn rule, as if continued smashing ever fixed anything.

[izzie]

5. for lack of a vision thing we have military power. Bush think.

or have I read to much Mills in my college days? Oh dear was that Weber? Military power will not fix every thing.

[welshTerrier2]

6. on leaving trains ...

i hated them for the IWR vote ... i forgave them all ... an incredibly bad vote they made ... they failed to understand the evil of the neocons ... seemed pretty clear to me ... i moved on ...

i tried to get Kerry and the Dems to strongly oppose bush on the war in 2004 ... i thought of leaving the party ... i worked hard for Democrats and chipped in some serious money ... i was ABB ... i understood the evil of the neocons ... i couldn't just walk away ... my views on the war were invisible ... i was not represented by my own party ... whether fairly or not, we lost ...

and i said after that election, no more ... if Democrats want my vote, and i hope they do, they are going to have to earn it ... it makes no sense "just going along" if you are not represented ... and it even doesn't make sense against neocons ... no, the parties are not the same ... that's nonsense ... but job one is to make sure that you have a voice in your own party ... i have no voice at the highest levels ... and still, i will happily vote for and support those i agree with; i will never support those i don't ...

will i compromise? sure ... i don't see the party making me an offers though... i don't even see a forum for real dialog and negotiation ... an yet, i am not fond of leaving trains ... my door is always open ... at least it has been ...

but now, perhaps, i am rethinking this ... now, perhaps, there must be some finite point in time ... the issue about withdrawing from Iraq should have been put before the voters this November ... the Democrats have played politics with the issue ... one recent Gallup poll showed that a majority of Democrats support immediate withdrawal ... other polls show that a majority of Democrats don't believe Democrats even have an Iraq strategy at all ... as a party, we have no clearly defined position ... i believe that the best chance to end the war was to have the Democrats take a much more aggressive stand than they have and to put it before the voters this November ... this would have forced the republicans to put up or shut up ... now, this election has been squandered ... no final decision yet but i'm thinking, at least right now, that there will be no party-wide forgiveness after November if things don't change ...

and the CT primary ... it's epitaph is yet to be written ... if the preliminary info is right, turn out was way, way, way beyond normal ... if that's the case, i think it shows the incredible hunger of voters for very real change ... the party has been denying these voters a voice and today voters found a way to scream their message at their hard of hearing party leaders ... the message was: stop all this civility and take the bastards on full force ... the message was: stop equivocating and tap-dancing around the war issue ... stop the damned war ... the message was: how dare you arrogantly proclaim that any Senator "owns" or is "entitled" to a Senate seat ... you should ensure there is competition so the voters always are given a choice ...

so has the train left the station? not yet ... it's ETD is election day unless things change ...

[Stinky The Clown]

11. Yeah, I can forgive, too .......

.... but I'll have a much harder time forgetting.

In many ways, voting for the IWR was okay with me. I **knew** what Il Dunce had in mind. Not specifically, the PNAC documents notwithstanding, but *at the time* the IWR vote was pretty much standard practice. It wasn't a vote for war, but rather a show, for international consumption, of unanimity with the boss. Support the boss. To be sure, I would not have voted for it, but I can understand the positions of those who did.

By the 04 primaries, there was little reason to continue to support it. Those who equivocated might better be characterized as 'cautious' in the face of the Great Wurlitzer than just plain wrong. Its easy enough to be dogmatic and say 'they were wrong', but life just isn't black and white. Therefore, even for these politcos, I can find forgiveness. Again, as in the OP, I'll cite Kerry's 'voted for it before voting against it' statement. I can understand that and I honestly think he was right. Inartful to a fault, but right. From that same time, my clearest memories of the positions of the others in the primaries are limited to just a few of them. Kucinich was never unclear and always consistent - against the war then and against the war now. Ditto Sharpton. Clark was initially muddled; some early gaffes and too much honesty from a man who is the epitome of nuance. I give Clark extra points for total honesty and political neophtytery. He made the mistake of trying to argue a 'better way', but it appears his actual black and white stance was against the war. All but one of the rest came across to me as equivocaters who were just unable to articulate one clear stance. Except Lieberman. He was and still is pro war. And that I cannot forgive. I could have back then. But no more. It is him, and people like him, for whom the train has left the station.

[madmunchie]

8. This is so true

Saying that their vote was correct and would have been a good vote IF GWB knew how to fight a war is insane. Sheeple that accept that should just say that they agree with the reason for going to war PERIOD. Don't elaborate on stupidity.

We were led into war on false pretenses. We were fed nothing but lies. We were courted to accept the "reasons" for going to war. Many accepted the song and dance, I did not. It was crazy from day one. No matter whether GWB conducted the war brilliantly isn't even the issue. The brilliant destruction of somebody's country and the needless loss of life is inexcusable. I would still like to know why anybody voted for this "authorization" to go to war. There is still a great deal of explaining to do. I John Q citizen knew that it was all bullshit, all of the Senators that voted for this war knew that this was bullshit. If they didn't know that this was bullshit, then they are incompetent. Lieberman is not only supporting the war, but he is fucking proud of it.

Tucker Carlson was asking a guest why it is OK for people to have changed their mind on the war.

Well Fucker,- I mean Tucker, people that supported the war at its start, have by great numbers, changed their minds - DUH.... To you it seems like - once you make up your mind you are never supposed to change it...sounds like a W disease to me.

[Zhade]

10. K/R

NT!