Class warfare card, we must quit playing it, to win.

[warbustdotcom]

If us Democrats want to win, we must quit playing the class warfare card. We must quit demonizing and vilifying people just because they are rich and have high advantages in life.

I cringe every time I hear a Democrat talking about raising taxes, and justifying it because, "The rich need to pay their fair share." Or because, of some other reason that portrays the rich and advantaged as somehow evil and worthy of our contempt and scorn.

The rich and advantaged are people too, and they are Americans. Demonizing and scorning them only drives them further from checking the D box on their ballots.

If we are going to speak in favor of higher taxes and more social programs, we must speak in favor of them on a different level of reasoning. We can't speak in favor of them because those rich "have to pay their fair share" or because "those rich have enough as it is".

Instead we should speak of fiscal resonsability, and the positives that can come about if we give a hand up through the means of government. Or simply about the positive outcomes that occurs if even those in the lower class have a piece of the pie!

There is a more humane way to speak in favor of higher taxes and social programs. If we don't find this humane way of discussing our fiscal and social ideals, we'll continue to lose elections, alienate the advantaged, and most of all, we'll lose our freedoms to a ever growing neo-conservative movement that will rob us of our freedoms, by acting like they are protecting them.

An update. Please I don't think you hear what I'm saying!! Please again, hear what I am saying! I'm not saying rich should pay low taxes as the backs of the poor and middle class are broken by debt and deficit.

I am saying, we must change our tone! That's all!

Here are four hateful replies about the rich, that I got in reply to this post alone!

The quotes........

"while the benefits to the BushCo family and friends would have kicked in the moment the bill was passed"
And how much estate tax was liable to be uncollected between now and January, pray tell?


"People need the facts and the facts show GOP agenda to float all BIG YACHTS and leave the rest of us to drown."-----why is having a big yacht wrong? this is exactly the 'tone' I'm talking about!


"I am getting to the point that I am with Lemmy: Eat the Rich. Run a spit up their asses, out their mouths and roast them over a slow and smoky hardwood fire. Mop sauce optional."


"They aren't voting democrat either.The people we need to get to the polls hate the rich too.Don't you think the rich should be giving something back to the country that allowed them to get their billions?How much money do they need?I speak out about things that aren't fair,and giving the rich tax cuts when they already have a zillion ways to avoid paying taxes is unfair.
"


If you guys want to keep on with this tone as you try to win the debate in America! Go for it! it will just alienate our cause more! If you want to wage class warfare, at least do it in a civil, logical tone, and not in this hate filled tone, like the above quotes show. My main idea here, is that we must change our tone. Not that we should let policy break the backs of the poor and middle class.

[napi21]

1. It's SHRUB who's playing the Cllass Warfare Card!

The Dems weren't fighting against tax cuts as much as they were fighting against SLANTED TO ONE SEGMENT tax cuts!

Comeon! Look at the real world a little closer!

[warbustdotcom]

7. true

It is happening on both sides. But we play right into the neo-cons hands everytime we scorn the rich! When we do that, we give them the right to say, we are only doing this or that, because we hate the rich.

But, if we argued for our fiscal policies in a civil, reasonable way, neo-cons couldn't play that card anymore.

[gizmo1979]

34. I do hate the rich.

They aren't voting democrat either.The people we need to get to the polls hate the rich too.Don't you think the rich should be giving something back to the country that allowed them to get their billions?How much money do they need?I speak out about things that aren't fair,and giving the rich tax cuts when they already have a zillion ways to avoid paying taxes is unfair.

[FreeStateDemocrat]

126. 70 bil a year in tax revenue avoided by off-shore accounts, I hate'm too.

[unpossibles]

152. me too

I don't care if someone has money - but I can't understand the greed which drives one to never be satisfied and/or to trample on others so they can have yet another yeacht/mansion, etc.

there are people who are rich and still are very good people, just don't seem to be too many. And it's always bothered me that it seems that the rich get lots of things for free, in some sort of twisted irony.

[Warren Stupidity]

2. Hook line and sinker.

We have to stop swallowing all three of them. I'm sorry, truly sorry that you feel this way. I only wish that my Democratic Party would play the class warfare card, at least then regular working people would know which party stood for them.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrBenchley]

3. I worry about the recent vote to knock down the minimum wage increase

especially when I heard people on here saying "Oh, we can wait until we're in power in January to increase it--right now it's more important to block the estate tax cut."

The poor are suffering RIGHT NOW--meanwhile, how much estate tax is going to get paid between now and January. It makes more sense to me to get the miniumum wage up now and then reinstate the estate tax in January.

I doubt voters are going to say "Well, kids, you're going to have to go without Christmas presents again this year, but at least some rich guy somewhere has to pay estate taxes."

[w13rd0]

10. Problem with their bill is that...

...the minimum wage hike WASN'T implemented as an instant change, it was a "graduated increase", while the benefits to the BushCo family and friends would have kicked in the moment the bill was passed. Sorry, a sham is a sham is a sham.

[MrBenchley]

15. So fucking what?

Do you think the poor would actually have been outraged because their pay was increased a little?

"while the benefits to the BushCo family and friends would have kicked in the moment the bill was passed"
And how much estate tax was liable to be uncollected between now and January, pray tell?

It's going to be spun as "The Democrats would rather screw millions than let one rich person benefit even a little"...and you know what? It's going to be difficult to counter that claim.

[Cobalt Violet]

107. Plenty of tip earners would have been very pissed with their pay CUT.

If the bill were passed.

[MrBenchley]

110. And plenty more workers have to go without a raise

And I think that's going to a problem as we go along....

[Cobalt Violet]

117. I don't think low wage earners are so stupid they can't understand...

the idea of a poison pill.

[MrBenchley]

162. I don't know about that....

Look how many boboes in this thread are utterly unable to understand what the OP said....

[Donald Ian Rankin]

143. I wish they would spin it like that.

Once the right has admitted that not raising the minimum wage "screws millions" then we'd have them over a barrel.

I think it was probably the right decision, both politically and ethically - I suspect America cannot afford tax cuts right now.

[MrBenchley]

166. I agree....and had it passed

the Democrats could have pointed to those seven states as proof the GOP is incompetent or corrupt while still taking credit for mimnimum wage gains in 43 states.

I agree that America cannot afford anotehr tax cut...but I wonder how much estate tax will actually get collected between now and the new Congress taking over.

[Breeze54]

155. Wha????

Do you think the poor would actually have been outraged because their pay was increased a little?

[MrBenchley]

167. Spoken like someone who's never struggled to get shoes for their kids

[Breeze54]

179. You missed the point!

We may be having a misunderstanding here because I was going to say the same thing about you!
You talk like someone who thinks giving out crumbs will fill all the bellies and it won't!
:grr:
What? never been there, Benchley?

Yes!
I think the 'working poor' are tired of being thrown crumbs and want REAL CHANGE!
A REAL RAISE... for everyone that makes hourly pay $$$ !
And I don't think they want it; IF it means cutting someone else's pay in the process! :grr:
They want it for everyone --- across the board!
And I'll bet they're willing to wait till they get a REAL RAISE, after November!

I've raised three sons, with ZERO child support, even though it was court ordered!
Don't even try to "assume" anything about me! You know nothing. :mad:


Some free advice: Assuming anything about anybody can get you in trouble!

[ProudDad]

185. It's a hell of a waste of time

to try to reason with benchley the irrational...

Don't bother, just set your twit filter to tune him out...

[MrBenchley]

189. I didn't miss a fucking thing....

You're willing to do anything to help the poor, except give up your holier than thou posturing.

"What? never been there, Benchley?....Some free advice: Assuming anything about anybody can get you in trouble!"
Abd within two paragraphs of each other....I think that's a new record for this fboard. (snicker)

[Davis_X_Machina]

27. States...

...who require the regular minimum wage even for tipped employees would have lost that option as well. This is tantamount to a wage cut for tens of thousands of workers in seven states.

Remind me which party is all about Federalism, and local control, again?

[MrBenchley]

36. Again so fucking what?

It would have benefitted millions of workers in 43 states. Was that utterly unimportant?

And the last time I heard anybody even mention "Federalism," it was the Jim Crow crowd desperately trying to prop up the rotten "Sates rights" defense of racism.

[Davis_X_Machina]

38. Local control...

...is a GOP shibboleth until it means an immediate, 65% reduction in the mininum wage for tens of thousands of workers

As amended, the minimum wage increase eventually bill was a minimum wage decrease today bill.

[MrBenchley]

42. And it's worth screwing workers in 43 states

just to make that tedious point?

I don't think that's going to make for much of a campaign commercial.

[Davis_X_Machina]

48. It's a national version...

...of an old worker-splitting, anti-union negotiation trick, the two-track wage scale agreement, only this has the effect of screwing the existing hires instead of the new hires.

It's a give-back. and I wouldn't vote for a union leadership that accepted one any more than I'd vote for a legislator who did.

[MrBenchley]

50. (Sigh) No shit, sherlock

So how does not giving workers in 43 states immediate raises negate that trick?

By the way, when Democrats take over in January, are you going to oppose a minimum wage hike because it's Federalism?

[Davis_X_Machina]

54. Look, you're a Utilitarian...

...and you're just going to go with X$ improvement times Y people equals z increase in general happiness, and justice be damned.

If you could take the bill into conference committee, and get the GOP to eliminate the tipped workers' involved higher minimum wage floor altogether, and were able therby to increase the future general miminum wage a dime a hour as a result, would you do it? Another qaurter an hour? How high?

It's a defensible position, and you've got a lot of heavy hitters, starting with John Stuart Mill on your side.

But it would be unjust.

[MrBenchley]

94. Forty three is always going to be larger than seven

And I doubt the poor are going to jump up and down celebrating that it was "just that they got screwed out of a raise.

[Breeze54]

156. Awe poor Mr...Hey?

We're going to take over the House and Senate in November and then?
Onto the WH and then??
We're going after all the greedy mutha fucka's that have been
screwing over the poor and the middle class, in this country, for years!!!

Are you ready???

[TheFarseer]

64. Actually the problem with the bill was

that the national deficit would rocket past 1 trillion /year and only help a few hundred families per year. The business of hurting the country at large for the benefit of a few thousand people has got to stop. We're paying $400 billion a year on interest. Do you know how much good we could do with that money?

[sandnsea]

127. It cut tipped workers' wages too

It would have been horrible for many single moms in our state who depend on tips and a decent wage to stay off welfare. That bill sucked all the way around. Stop doing the right's work for them. Democrats decided to vote it down, so now it's your job to get on board or shut up. What's good for the far left is good for you too.

[HeeBGBz]

190. How so? I haven't read the bill and I'm a tipped worker

You mean they were gonna cut my $3 an hour? How about the ones with starting pay of $2.15? Oh, I get it. We are making soooo much money they need to use the excess to fund the war or something. Silly me.

[sandnsea]

193. Ours get $7.50, minimum wage

That is true for workers in 7 states, there is no separate tipped worker minimum wage. This law was going to supercede our state laws. And I don't understand why tipped workers put up with this, that's what the tipped worker minimum wage was THIRTY YEARS AGO. Where the hell is the restaurant workers union on this??? It's the most important minimum wage issue that I can see.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jamastiene]

137. Well said.

What the OP would rather have us do is just lay down and agree with the Republicans or start bashing the poor, literally.

[w13rd0]

5. straw man...

...the "we mustn't speak this way" examples you give are examples of the way Republicans try to frame Democrats as speaking. But I never hear Democrats actually speaking that way. o.O

[havocmom]

6. "..us Democrats..."

Welcome to DU. I see you have just joined DU. Thanks for the advice. But I will continue my efforts to educate folks on the fact that THERE IS CLASS WARFARE going on and the ultra rich are killing us.

People need the facts and the facts show GOP agenda to float all BIG YACHTS and leave the rest of us to drown.

Don't have to demonize anybody. Just point out the facts: the programs and legislation of the past years, completely set by GOP being in charge of all branches of government, have left working class and middle class Americans with shrinking resources. The ultra rich, however, are doing better every day. Ask Warren Buffet if you don't believe me. He has been out speaking about the situation and wondering when most Americans are gonna do something to make it stop.

The Paris Hilton class does not need billions in tax cuts. The working poor DO NEED a living wage.

It IS class warfare. The rich are exploiting the rest of us.

[Warpy]

8. Class warfare is a FACT and our class has been losing

for too damned long. It's high time the Democrats STOP being afraid to wage it. It's high time the Democrats dump the conservative agenda of corporate appeasement, low wages, and being content to stay out of power as long as they pay a few bucks less in income tax.

It's high time the Democrats mend fences with their working class base, in other words, and start fighting the fights that will get them elected.

When the right screams "Class Warfare!" the Dems have to counter with "You bet your ass it is, and it's long overdue!"

Conservatism just plain does not work.

[dmosh42]

101. You hit it on the head, Warpy!

The Repubs managed to manipulate the working class, by charging that "they" were using class as a weapon against the corporate bosses and billionaires. Well we should have kept doing it, but instead we 'let the foxes into the henhouse", by voting in these blood sucking crooks in the White House and congress. Come November, hopefully we get back on top.

[Wiley50]

178. Yeah. And let's collect that estate tax all at once

"Up Against The Wall, You Greedy Fuckers!"
"Let's See if you can get through the needle's eye
and collect your fabled mansion in the hereafter"

I own a gun.
I'm just waiting.

[Davis_X_Machina]

11. Complaints of "Class warfare" are code talk...

...as Digby points out:

Of course, one of the unspoken truths about "tax and spend" is what they leave unsaid --- tax and spend on the wrong kind of people. There are an awful lot of Americans who are not nearly as offended by a bunch of fat cats stealing hundreds of millions in defense contracts as they are at the idea of those "something for nothing" folks in New Orleans signing up for a free FEMA trailer. That's the American lizard brain the Republicans know and exploit so well.

Remember that there are forty to fifty million voters in this country who will volunteer to live in a cardboard box under a bridge and live on sparrows toasted on an old curtain rod -- provided you can guarantee that the black-gay-Mexican-guy in the next box over doesn't even have the curtain rod.

[xchrom]

19. i wanna kick your reply.

[kentuck]

12. I can't believe this ...

bullshit....

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[warbustdotcom]

14. All i'm saying is...

All I'm saying is this. Argue in favor of strong democratic ideals, without using the language of hate and scorn for those who have done well!

That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying we should just let them get away with bad policy. What I'm saying is we must argue our side in such a way, that we don't make the rich sound evil just because they are rich!

[havocmom]

17. "... language of hate and scorn..."?

Turn the radio OFF and back away from Rush.

[Doctor_J]

18. Are you a moron, or a Repub, or both?

"Argue in favor of strong democratic ideals, without using the language of hate and scorn for those who have done well!"

Please find me some quote where a Dem uses hate and scorn toward someone successful.

Man, Republicans are stoopid.

[Sparkly]

20. "hate and scorn for those who have done well!" LOL!!!

Where have you seen such "language," exactly?

Why do you presume none of us have "done well?"

Can you quote some Democrat who's "made the rich sound evil just because they are rich?"

[warbustdotcom]

23. Just look at some of the replies to this post

what my subject line says

[MrBenchley]

29. What can you do but shake your head and laugh

when people prove your point for you?

[Sparkly]

30. Please quote one so I know what you're referring to. nt

[warbustdotcom]

33. go look at

I posted a reply below that shows a few hateful quotes......and please..

Please again, hear what I am saying! I'm not saying rich should pay low taxes as the backs of the poor and middle class are broken by debt and deficit.

I am saying, we must change our tone! That's all!

[OhioBlue]

180. you also took some of the quotes

out of context. Look - you may have a point that we won't win with angry positions......

But I really don't see the democratic positions as all that angry - I see then as realistic. The Right tries to frame it as angry rhetoric, but it is really just the Right's talking points that make people think that the Left's positions is angry.... It is actually pointing out realistic situations... CEOs pay compared to the average worker are at levels above the Robber Barren days....

It is just time to point out the inequalities in economic classes that is becoming unsustainable and ridiculous. There is a class war that is being waged and it isn't the Left that is waging it.

[havocmom]

51. LOL not the rich we are scorning

It's the system they have built to become even richer at cost to the working and middle classes.

Oh, and we scorn their apologists too.

How much straw do you think it takes to prop up your position? :rofl: All that straw is very combustible. Might wanna re-consider the foundation you chose for your argument.

[Breeze54]

159. "It's not the rich we are scorning," Say it, havocmom! ---- lol !

"It's the system they have built to become even richer at cost to the working and middle classes."

I agree! Thanks for saying it! :)

BTW?
"Working" is a code word for POOR?? :shrug: Who'd have thunk it?!

Just wondering if all the people who have been laid off and found "other"
lower paying jobs, are also considered dumb or stupid too?

Not that you said that, havocmom but it was 'implied', 'inferred' up thread! :shrug:

It's that attitude that needs to go! :grr:
Outsourcing, lay offs, job elimination and forced early retirements
have put many (college +) educated people in lower paying jobs!
Now they're "working" for the $$ !! :sarcasm:

[havocmom]

183. WTF? Working class is not poor in my book, nor stupid

Working class is no shame or problem. And it is not poor either. Hope you don't have a problem with my words. Lately, around here others seem to be reading something into them I never put.

I am a salt of the earth person, poor and not stupid. No problem with others in similar situations. I value the work done by most. Only work I have a problem with is that which exploits and abuses. Sadly, that seems to pay better. Many people like to work at things that don't pay well, but are important and satisfying. I am such a person.

I hope by 'inferred up-thread', you didn't mean me. If you did, I am confused. Hell, it's late, I'm tired and there's a full moon comin... confusion is an art at times like this

The tide that lifts all boats is good, but there is too much of raising yachts and letting all but those who can afford them drown. That is not a good way to run a society. In the end, too much at the top will leave a mass of people with nothing to lose and make them dangerous.

We all do better when we all do better.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

28. They are not all evil.

That said, too many, perhaps the majority are. From both their sins of ommission and comission.

Although I am not rich, I have known many of them, because of my former career. I can honestly say that only a handful of them were people I was better off for the knowing. Far too many were hardly what you would call "nice people". Jerkoffs, twats, assholes and morons abounded.

That said, I reiterate: Class warfare is here. It is being waged against you and me. There are people that benefit from it, with full knowledge of why they benefit from it. Thus they are involved and culpable. Thus they should be held accountable.

This shit has to end before people take to the streets violently. History is clear: no resolution of this and they will.

[Cobalt Violet]

108. What language of hate and scorn.

You must live a really sheltered life if you think that language is hate and scorn.

[annabanana]

140. they are not evil because they are rich

maybe they are rich because they are evil...

[ProudDad]

186. They aren't evil because they are rich

they are evil because of the damage most of them have DONE to get rich.

[FredScuttle]

16. Like Chris Rock said...

"If you're losing, who's winning?!!!"

It certainly ain't the poor and working class.

Good luck with your GOP astroturf and enjoy your stay.

[El Fuego]

53. Like William Buffett said:

"If class warfare is being waged in America, my class is clearly winning."

[Captain Hilts]

111. Warren. And Bill Gates' dad. nt

[El Fuego]

116. D'oh! I meant Warren. At least I didn't say Jimmy.

[Captain Hilts]

124. Then I'll say it...'Jimmy Buffett'!!! nt

[warbustdotcom]

21. This is all I mean folks....

Reading the replies to this post, I am given evidence of just what I mean.

You all sound mad because there are rich people in existence! You sound jealous and full of scorn because they are rich and you aren't! That tone from our side must change!

We must stand for labor, and fair tax laws and fiscal responsability, but we cannot keep doing it in this tone, that makes the rich sound evil, just because they're rich.

If our tone doesn't change, we'll just be interpreted as a bunch of jealous goons, who can't handle someone being richer than us!

On the other hand, if our tone changes, we'll be interpreted as people concerned about America, and the direction we're going.

[Stinky The Clown]

25. What's this 'we' shit?

[Sparkly]

26. "they are rich and you aren't!"

Define "rich."

And, explain what it is that sounds "jealous and full of scorn." Provide a quote.

[warbustdotcom]

35. go look

go look at my reply to this post that shows just a few hateful replies about the rich...

Please again, hear what I am saying! I'm not saying rich should pay low taxes as the backs of the poor and middle class are broken by debt and deficit.

I am saying, we must change our tone! That's all!

[havocmom]

57. Stop saying go look and provide an actual quote

Oh, you can't because there isn't one here.

If we fail to agree with apologists for the rich who exploit the general population, that's not the same as being hateful to the rich. A distinction even you must notice, as you keep the same mantra without offering quotes to back it up.

Call for backup. Somebody might post the hateful remark you so desperately need to make your point. Team sports work so much better than solitary pursuits.

::sniff sniff:: pepperoni? anybody smell pepperoni?

[warbustdotcom]

58. ummm go look at my bold updates in my post

Yeah i quoted four of them in the bold updates to my initial post. that's why I put them in bold, so you can see them.

[havocmom]

61. Noticed that. And you quoted me, by the way.

It wasn't hateful, it was the truth. Paraphrasing Warrne Buffet in fact.

Just because you don't like something does not make it hateful. The truth may be painful. But you don't own the language or get to make the rules about what truths get said.

:rofl:

[FredScuttle]

102. Uh, last time I checked...

posts to DU did not equal "setting the tone" for the FUCKING NATIONAL PARTY.

You've been asked to provide a quote from a PROMINENT DEMOCRAT saying "tax the rich" etc. You can't.

[union_maid]

99. Most of us aren't angry because there are rich people

But we are furious about increasing income disparity. Not all of the very wealthy think it's a good thing either, but way too many are just fine with it.

[Raksha]

131. That is a crock of shit and a total straw man argument.

We're mad, all right, but we are NOT mad simply because "there are rich people in existence." We're mad because the rich people in America (most of them) aren't satisfied with simply being filthy rich, they want to be even richer and they want to grind the rest of us even further down than we've been ground down already.

As several posters here have mentioned already, THEY are waging class warfare on the poor and middle class, and they've been doing it for at least 30 years--AND WINNING! It's damn well about time we started fighting back.

[Guaranteed]

134. That's exactly it. They use their wealth as leverage. nt

[Dora]

148. You're full of crap. Just because you say, doesn't make it so.

Jealousy and scorn - what?

[xchrom]

22. the only people who say that democrats talk that way are republicans.

[Dogmudgeon]

24. I'm unemployed, chronically ill, can't get a job OR health insurance

And I know of several other DUers who have it far worse than I do. Some of them have died.

But I have gotten several lectures from Righties about the "Work Ethic". What delight!

If you think I'm being a little too harsh on the rich bastards who have taken hammer-and-tong to keep America firmly fixed in the 19th century, you need to get some perspective.

There IS a Class War going on. The Right is waging it. And it's getting worse. So bad, in fact, that there's even a number of rich people now on our side (notably Warren Buffet, Donald Trump, and, internationally, Mark Shuttleworth).

I think you've seriously blundered into a GOP Talking Points trap. They're good at this propaganda stuff, aren't they? So extract your foot from your mouth and your head from your fanny, learn from your mistake, and fight on.

--p!

[Sparkly]

32. And George Soros. nt

[warbustdotcom]

31. Hateful quotes from people who replied to this post!

You want evidence that we act scornful of the rich. Here are some quotes from the replies I got.

I just ask that you hear what I'm saying. I have a feeling you're hearing what you think I'm saying, and not what I'm actually saying.

The quotes........

"while the benefits to the BushCo family and friends would have kicked in the moment the bill was passed"
And how much estate tax was liable to be uncollected between now and January, pray tell?


"People need the facts and the facts show GOP agenda to float all BIG YACHTS and leave the rest of us to drown."-----why is having a big yacht wrong? this is exactly the 'tone' I'm talking about!


"I am getting to the point that I am with Lemmy: Eat the Rich. Run a spit up their asses, out their mouths and roast them over a slow and smoky hardwood fire. Mop sauce optional."

I think you get the point.

Please again, hear what I am saying! I'm not saying rich should pay low taxes as the backs of the poor and middle class are broken by debt and deficit.

I am saying, we must change our tone! That's all!

[Davis_X_Machina]

37. I seem to remember...

a man writing a letter forty-odd years age from a Birmingham jail to a lot of his fellow preachers who thought his words and actions were 'unwise and untimely'.

Justice has no 'tone'. Justice has no calendar.

[warbustdotcom]

40. and that preachers tone was

Yeah and if you remember, that preachers tone was not one of hate and jealousy! It was one of hope, love and logic!

You are wrong that justice doesn't have a tone! It does have a tone. If King had called for racial justice by labeling people as the white devil, or by scorning them, his cause may have failed!

[Sparkly]

43. Let me ask you this...

Do you think the "class warfare card" is "played" by the GOP? The very notion that Democrats all "hate the rich" is part of that. It also includes things like:

"Why should I have to work so some lazy welfare queen can sit on her ass and keep having kids?"

"I never got a job from a poor person! The rich are the ones who create employment!"

"The rich pay most of the taxes in this country! So if they aren't doing well, none of us can do well!"

"Poor people are just jealous. They should get off their butts and work instead of resenting successful, hardworking rich people."

[warbustdotcom]

45. Of course the GOP plays it

Of course the GOP plays it. But we need to find a better way to play it! A more civil and thought out way to play it.

We gotta change our tone, or else we're just fulfilling GOP prophecy everytime we say things like, "well them rich just gotta pay more cuz they're rich." Or the like.

We gotta drop the "get evenism" tone about our arguments.

[ldf]

125. so what you are saying is we gotta be "nice"...

sorry, being nice is what got us into this predicament.

if we had fought fire with fire, we would not be having this ridiculous discussion.

we are now at a point where there is absolutely nothing but anger, no, outrage, at how our own party leaders have sat on their asses while the constitution has been used to wipe george "w" bush's ass.

all because we (our party leaders) have been keeping our powder dry for the BIG fight. when really they were just keeping the powder dry so they could powder "w"'s ass. wouldn't want him to get all chapped or anything, would we?

take the high road. right.

right into minority status, so we can bootlick and grovel to all those rich, you know, the one's who really DO have LOTS of money (and are never hurt in any economic downturn, but instead just get richer), because THEY are the ones who provide the financing to get ANYONE elected. and they expect repayment. which little lord pissypants is doing. repaying those who got him elected. and doing as much as he can WHILE he is elected, because they know it's the only chance they have.

and as one other poster stated, if things aren't addressed, then there WILL eventually be a point when it is taken to the streets. then the gated communities, with all their security guards, won't protect them.

:grr:

and I WAS going to break into song:

mr.b and warby sitting in a tree, K-I-S-S-I-N-G..... you know, but that would be downright petty, wouldn't it.

we poor folk are SOOOOO tacky...

:shrug:

[Sparkly]

39. I don't see the first two as "hateful."

"while the benefits to the BushCo family and friends would have kicked in the moment the bill was passed"
And how much estate tax was liable to be uncollected between now and January, pray tell?

How's that "hateful?"

"People need the facts and the facts show GOP agenda to float all BIG YACHTS and leave the rest of us to drown."-----why is having a big yacht wrong? this is exactly the 'tone' I'm talking about!

The problem is in "floating" (supporting, enlarging) "big yachts" (the wealthiest top 2%) while leaving the working people who make and keep the wealthy people wealthy (through labor and purchasing), "drowning" (struggling to pay for healthcare, education, housing, etc.). That's not an attack on "big yachts," but an attack on GOP policy.

"I am getting to the point that I am with Lemmy: Eat the Rich. Run a spit up their asses, out their mouths and roast them over a slow and smoky hardwood fire. Mop sauce optional."

Okay, I'll give you that one.

[Warren Stupidity]

75. Objecting to massive greed and corruption by the elites

appears to be hateful speech to our dubious OP. The OP, in my opinion, is pimping his blog by starting a flamefest here. Please do not vote this crap up.

The problem is that the exquisite propaganda of the republican media has convinced working people in large numbers that their instinctive hatred of the rich elites who run this country for their own benefit should be directed at brie eating chardonay sipping volvo driving urban democrats instead of at the texas oil mafia that is robbing us blind. See "The Trouble With Kansas".

Until Democrats find their working class populist voice again we will continue to lose the non urban working class vote. The OP's analysis is dead wrong and his prescription is 180 degrees the wrong direction.

[warbustdotcom]

79. no conspiracies here

Yeah no mass conspiracies here folks. Why is it wrong to just suggest we need to have a calm logical tone about how we present our views? Seriouly no conspiracy on my part. Karl Rove hasn't called me. Pat Robertson isn't teaching me how to do leg lifts. Dick Cheney isn't ratting out cia ops on me.

I'm just a new blogger here.

[Finder]

41. Welcome to DU and I agree with you...

but would like to state that most who seem to be against the rich are thinking Paris Hilton and other "spoiled rich" for the most part. Even Dems/progressives are sometimes susceptible to the "us vs them" mentality, unfortunately.

Hope you have a thick skin.

[warbustdotcom]

44. Is this joe lieberman?

Is this Joe Lieberman replying to my post? hahaha just kidding.

Thanks for the moral support.

[Stinky The Clown]

46. You, I just figured you out .......

Your issue is in the definition of 'rich'. Your handlers make it appear that anyone with a job requiring a tie is rich. They make it sound like Dems hate everyone who owns a house. Anyone who has a house that has (falsely) appreciated to some obscene level and now has a personal net worth in excess of $1M (80% of which is the value of the shelter he lives in) is 'rich'.

Those people aren't rich. A few of them who own a boat or an RV or some stocks and bonds or whatever are not rich.

Rich is the megamultimillionaires. you know. The ones who have been lobbying since the end of ther last century to allow their estates to pass, untaxed, to their heirs. Names like Walton and DeVoss fit in here.

[Book Lover]

47. First, I think you really need to calm down

Your large heavy type and multiple exclamation points are making you seem out of control. I suggest you rein it in.

Second, you might make greater headway here if you were to delineate the difference between the lucky bastards whose families are bringing in six figures or more and the sons-of-bitches who are in the super-wealthy category. Some of us on DU may be in or in striking range of that six-figure income, whereas nobody here is getting into the super-wealthy club without winning the sperm lottery, accepting the right marriage proposal, or doing so at the expense of others. How else can you possibly expect to gather millions of dollars under your personal control?

Finally, I would like to point out that your original post illustrates nearly perfectly the trouble with "we." You lump every democrat together with that word, which is simply incorrect. I would refine that assertion with a few examples from somewhere outside of this one Sunday morning GDP thread.

[warbustdotcom]

52. you just proved my point

Dude, you just proved my point.

Why are they bastards or sons of bitches, just because they were born into it? By saying things like, they won the sperm lottery, you make it sound like you're jealous and want vengence for your lack of genetic luck.

[Book Lover]

62. You have not replied to a single point of mine

I do have to wonder why.

[ReadTomPaine]

73. Because it's one of the basic tenants of inequality in the USA.

Once a person rises above a certain income level in this country, the rules change. The vast majority of people who have true wealth in this economy have done nothing to deserve it. They haven't worked hard, they haven't contributed to any general well being, they haven't advanced science or done anything profound and many do all they can to remain inside this bubble of privilege no matter what the consequences to others are. The estate tax issue couldn't make this any more clear, even to you.

And yet despite this self-centered greed and narcissism, there are still those who defend this serf/caste system that sits like a monkey on the back of the nation. Simply because a person is born to a wealthy family doesn't mean they deserve power or influence. Yet they get it anyway. Look at our current president and what has happened to us all as a result of this 'entitlement' culture.

Similarly, just because a person can take your money, investments and future away from you via market manipulation, liquidation of pension plans and the many other engines of wealth that have been put into play over recent years doesn't make it right for them to do so. Keeping discussion like this off limits to debate is just giving an already powerful group even more that they haven't earned.

[El Fuego]

49. Wrong, no one "hates" the rich.

NO ONE is demonizing the rich. We're against policies that will ultimately turn the U.S. into a third world country with no middle class, only extremes of wealth. We're not playing the class warfare card, just trying to fight back.

The undisputable fact is that the repugs in congress are just advocates for the extremely rich, and that is a very powerful and persuasive argument for those people who are living paycheck to paycheck to vote Democratic this time.

[gulliver]

55. Your subject line is a false accusation.

Lacking virtuous leaders, the GOP is the war party, even in "class warfare."

[elehhhhna]

56. zot, goober.

[warbustdotcom]

59. huh?

How does that even apply to my post? You saying I'm a Republican? Lol, I have lots of Republicans who reply to my blogs on other sites, who would gladly tell you, I'm no Republican.

[elehhhhna]

69. Sorry. I get your point.

I think deep down most Americans worship the wealthy becasue think they will be "rich" "Someday" and thus feel an affinity with people like Paris Hilton.

[bronxiteforever]

60. What have we gotten from the toned down DLC talk?

Failure and the loss of Congress! What have we gotten from squeamish bi partisanship? Not a damn seat at the table. The GOP passed its huge tax breaks at the same time as spending everything on bombs and no bid sweetheart contracts. I say No More!
The rich in america don't pay their fair share and now they want OUR Social Security as entitlement. I say to hell with them. Never again

[warbustdotcom]

67. there it is again

There it is again, "They don't pay their fair share."

You know people hear when you say that? SOme hear a jealous democrat, that is upset because people are rich!

Instead argue for the rich paying more because.

1. We're spending more and taking in less tax revenue, thus we're in deficits.
2. Taxing the poor and middle class more, will break their backs. The rich on the other hand can afford it, and our country needs it to avoid falling deeper in debt.
3. If we don't get more tax revenue, our children will be paying for our debts.


See what I'm getting at here? There are logical, rational reasons to get our points across, without simply falling into the same old, "Well they gotta pay their fair share" trap again.

[El Fuego]

70. You should quit reading your own emotions into it, and remember the $5.15

per hour minimum wage which hasn't been raised in NINE YEARS.

[El Fuego]

74. Those are classic GOP talking points.

I remember Bush Sr. said something very much like when running for re-election. He said the Democrats were like puritans who spent all their time worrying that someone else might be having fun. Guess he's your kindred spirit.

[bronxiteforever]

82. I totally agree with your points 1,2,3. But without outrage

there would have been the poison pill bill of the "death tax"bill. My point is also the status quo ante before the war produced a great economy, I want the rich to pay the tax they were paying before the war.Then they were paying a somewhat closer fair share.
also the social security matter is a sense of outrage which will obviously shake the powers that be because it is so unfair. The debt becomes issue number one with entitlements but our blockbuster war spending never threatened greenspin et al.
Also Politics without passion is failure.

[newspeak]

154. there is nothing wrong with being wealthy

However, with wealth comes certain responsibilities and obligations-the wealthy use our infrastructures and have access by mere influence to use governmental influence for their businesses or causes (lobby). If one of those third world countries aren't doing business with one of our corporations or aren't doing what they want a particular government to do, they turn to good old Uncle Sam to rescue them--that's our hard earned money, our sons and daughters that are sacrificed on their greedy altar. There's a group of wealthy individuals against the estate tax and publicly has come out against it, as they wish to pay their share of taxes. There are those who own businesses who treat their employees decently and take responsibility for their community. There are wealthy who have obtained their wealth with their own creative endeavors, not stealing ideas and labor of others. However, there are those who believe that those who work for them are beneath them, if they could own slaves they would. That they are deserving of everything, do not care who they harm--knowingly harm communities disposing toxic waste (just to make an extra buck) and send their profits to the Caymans so they wouldn't have to pay a farthing for the people and the infrastructure they harm. And, to me the war profiteer is the leech on society, sucking on its host (every damn country in the world) and should be seen in contempt. The more decent jobs leave this country, the more our infrastructure is sold to the highest bidder (usually a different country), the more corporations are given our hard earned money to squander, the more our children die for the oil magnates, the more our representatives chose businesses over the will of the people--the more people will cry 'CLASS WARFARE.'

[El Fuego]

63. How are Dems playing the "class warfare" card, anyway? LINK??

Are you saying the Democrats in the Senate are engaging in class warfare just by voting against an estate tax repeal?

[warbustdotcom]

71. Not necessarily

It depends on their rational for not wanting to repeal it.

[El Fuego]

83. By "rationale," I assume you mean "proving they're not just jealous"?

Sounds like the fiscal policy of junior high girls.

The $9 trillion U.S. national debt would be enough rationale for most people not to give billions to the already wealthy.

[Warren Stupidity]

86. "to the already wealthy"

Make that "to the already very wealthy".

[Warren Stupidity]

84. What exactly is the rationale for wanting to repeal it?

And do you support repeal of the estate tax?

[Vickers]

65. "us Democrats" "If we are going to" "every time I hear a Democrat"

"If you guys "

"If you want to"

"Not that we"

Dude, if you are going to do this shit, at least be consistent. :eyes:

Welcome to DU yadda yadda yadda...

[TheFarseer]

66. what card should we be playing?

If the democrats are not standing up for everyday working people, what good are they?

[warbustdotcom]

72. I don't think you're hearing what I'm saying

I really don't think you're hearing what I'm saying

We gotta change our tone and the methods we go about talking about things. Did you read the post?

[TheFarseer]

77. You didn't have a constructive solution

just to stop talking about how the gap between rich and poor is widening etc etc. Why would that help? That just panders to rich who won't vote for us anyway, and leaves the middle class and poor wondering who is standing up for them.

[Finder]

78. The OP was about tone in discussing. n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

87. Outside of snarks in this discussion

the "OP' has provided no real examples of this bad tone nor any examples of the 'good tone' that we should carefully use when tiptoeing around the perilous class warfare issue trying timidly to defend what is left of the new deal and the great society from further rape and pillage by the party that is engaged in wholesale direct class warfare.

[Finder]

92. Any thread on the estate tax or fair tax is an example of broadbrush...

condemnation of the "rich" although as I stated before, most are referring to the Paris Hilton types or large corporations. Rarely is there a debate without name-calling or accusations of being a shill.

I don't think it happens so much off the internet though.

In Congress, those who represent us are rarely working class so they dismiss a lot of arguments made by their constituents. In the past, Unions were the voice of the working class but the right wing has successfully turned them benign.

[TheFarseer]

93. I got that, but what should we be saying instead?

I think it would be very difficult to change tone without changing the message or taking all of it's appeal to the intended audience away. How many ways are there to say, "they're shifting tax burden on those who can least afford to pay and that's wrong"?

[Finder]

100. The "intended audience" is an important thing to remember.

The statement you make about shifting the tax burden is the correct way to present the argument and does not have the tone the OP was referring to.IMO

[xchrom]

88. you're not saying anything bright, new or constructive.

we hear you -- god do we hear you.

you couldn't be more redundant if you tried -- oh wait...

[acmavm]

129. Funny, I've read all your crap here and I don't think you're saying

anything. Just telling people how YOU think they should react to the obscene disenfranchisement of so many people in this country. How YOU think they should react to being shut out of the economy, the American Dream if you will. How YOU think people losing their homes, filing for bankruptcy, being ill and having no insurance and no where to turn (or even worse having to do without dental and medical for their children). How YOU think that the elderly who are really being screwed by the republican administration should just buck up and be nice.

I think you're the one who needs to change his tone.

[DeepModem Mom]

68. You make some good points -- thanks. nt

[Richard Steele]

76. This thread makes at least ONE thing blatantly, glaringly obvious:

The fact that _YOU_ are utterly unqualified
to be offering advice or criticism
to ANYONE on the subject of
"winning friends and influencing people".

You are REALLY not good at it, friend - haven't you noticed?

[Finder]

80. Must everyone preach to the choir to gain "friends"? n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

95. Newbies giving advice and admonitions are obnoxious.

If you want to gain friends when you join a group bringing out your broad brush and your strawmen to tell the group what is wrong with them is probably not a good strategy.

[warbustdotcom]

81. umm i haven't made one demeaning reply

Umm dude. I have answered everyone in a nice polite tone, pretty much.

It's you who can't rebut what I said, and instead reduced yourself to posting some premade cartoon of the goons in our white house.

[Richard Steele]

90. The fact that you probably believe that...

...is a big part of the problem.

BTW, that "premade toon" is called a "signature"; it's in ALL my posts.

[Bjorn Against]

114. Telling us we are hateful is not a "nice polite tone" n/t

[Cocoa]

85. you have a typo

I think your graphic meant to say StrawMan06.com

[Richard Steele]

136. If there were any TRUTH in his advertising, it would actually say:

"I'm trying to stir up some SH*T because I earn a penny
for every ten clicks on my pathetically LAME excuse for a website".

Seriously, after a few hours thinking about it, I really think
this entire flamebait thread is just SPAM for his website.

Look at his Sig-graphic: "Vote Now, your candidate may be losing!"
That phrase alone BURIES the needle on my SpamDar.
And then BRACE yourself before you check out his homepage;
it's kinda hard to describe.

My PERSONAL "best guess" theory:
I think he couldn't afford a REAL WebMistress,
so he saved up his allowance
until he could buy enough CRACK to re-animate
Helen Keller's corpse and turn it loose
on some 1995-vintage "free-with-every-magazine-subscription"
WebPage templates.

Crack-Zombie issues aside, it's REALLY not her best work.

[OzarkDem]

89. I think you're being sincere

Perhaps you're saying we should reframe the debate. I agree, I don't think Dems have an objection to wealthy people, they just don't support allowing them to exploit the system at the expense of others.

[xchrom]

91. you assume we are all capitalists here.

that we support the economic status quo as it is -- and don't want radical changes.

well, this ''we'' doesn't fit in that category -- and if the current violence in the middle east -- or the abandonment by the people who really do commit class warfare of the people of new orleans -- climate warming -- doesn't give a clue that capitalism has failed -- then there is no sense in talking to you.

wealth is not infinite -- and people who have most of wealth are consequently -- by accident or whatever -- denying it to someone else.

that's the world.

and it has to change.

humans have to evolve into something other than hierarchical monkeys.

but if being a baboon makes you get all giggly and happy -- then more power to you.

for now.

[iconocrastic]

96. I hope your experience here today has been an education. n/t

[leftofthedial]

97. we should strip the rich of all their wealth and use if for the common

good. We should strip them of all possessions; strip them naked and run them through the streets for the amusement of the proletariat. Then we should deport their sorry, broken asses in the holds of cattle transport ships to whatever African country has the lowest standard of living. We should impose a maximum wage, set at 20 times the minimum wage.

This is war. They started it and they have waged it without mercy or respite for over a hundred years.

[iconocrastic]

105. Pardon my skepticism, but with that Marxist rhetoric are you

possibly a Freeper troll trying to make DU look a little silly?

If not, carry on. ;]

[MrBenchley]

112. Sadly, he's not kidding....

I'm only surprised we haven't had three or four posts proclaiming "Democrats are cowards" for not parroting that crap.

[leftofthedial]

122. Democrats are cowards.

the very soul of all current world strife and problems is a class war.

I don't apologize that Marx and others said it first.

It's not crap. It's the inconvenient truth behind the other inconvenient truths.

[iconocrastic]

153. That's what the Freepers say about us. Your brethern?

Sorry, you're laying it on way too thick for me to believe you're anything but a Freeper troll trying to make us look bad.

But Im not a moderator, so carry on.

[leftofthedial]

160. bite my ass

:kick:

you must be a Freeper.

I know you are but what am I?

[MrBenchley]

163. Don't let the door hit you in the ass, then

Go over and pose with the brave heroes of the Green party (snicker)

[leftofthedial]

164. "love it or leave it" . . . hmmmmmmm

where have I heard that before?

[MrBenchley]

165. I'd be willing to bet that everywhere you go

most are glad to see the back of you.

If you don't want to be a Democrat, I'm sure as shit not going to stop you.

[Name removed]

168. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrBenchley]

169. LOL!

Liberals are always welcome in the Democratic party...you know, the party you wanted to call "cowards."

[leftofthedial]

170. Oh that. I just didn't want you to remain perpetually surprised.

Seems we're still waiting for two or three others to echo the sentiment.

[MrBenchley]

172. Of course you're waiting for two or three others...

Unlike Democrats, the far left actually ARE cowards.

[leftofthedial]

174. we seem to be speaking different languages

which does not surprise me in the least.

[MrBenchley]

176. Hey, maybe when your two or three others show up

you can try calling Democrats cowards again....

[leftofthedial]

177. Most congressional Democrats ARE cowards

afraid to stand up against neocon tyranny

afraid to stand up for American workers

afraid to insist on fair and free elections

afraid to call the class war what it is.

[Pavulon]

109. Guess I'm fucked

I vote d have a good job a wife with a good job. I ate tuna fish and macaroni, so what is rich?

100k a year.

300? What if you had school loans for 185K for 10 years, while you made shit and worked 36 hour shifts? Then start making money, is that the same?

So by your system the person fixing your ticker should be paid only 20 times what I made at my first job?

Character is how people should be judged. Not by material possessions.

correction

[union_maid]

98. Oh, we've got class warfare all right

The problem is we're not fighting back nearly enough. I'm pretty moderate in the way I think we need to approach things in electoral politics, but on economic issues I think it's long past time for a real populist message. I think a huge problem that we've got is that since the days of Reagan, we haven't communicated well about who is "us" and who is "them" and how are interests mesh and don't mesh. Truth is, you're independently wealthy or you're everyone else, and everyone else needs a lot more safety net than we have left. Slashing taxes for the rich hasn't stopped and industry from flowing overseas either.

Not all rich people are evil. Here on Long Island, if you look at voting patterns in most elections, high income and low income areas go Democratic more than middle income areas. I also know that a lot of those middle income people don't even understand how much of a social safety net they haven't got. When things go badly and they find out, some of them are pretty shocked.

[oasis]

103. Concern that Dems "are drifting towards outdated classwar arguments" is

shared by Sen. Joe Lieberman. So you're in good company.;-)

[Greyhound]

104. Do you really think that, lets say, Mel Gibson is going to vote for the

Democratic Candidate if we would just cut his taxes enough? Is George Soros going to campaign for shrubCo II because he is paying too much in taxes?

Are you familiar with Warren Buffets quote about "there is a class war, and my class is winning"?

The divide already exists and has ossified in the upper classes, a change in tone will change nothing in that demographic, but it might just turn enough working class voters off toward us to ensure our continued march to fascism.

I'm not sure if you're just trolling, naive, or just a spammer? Care to enlighten me?

[ClassWarrior]

106. I have no problem with wealth. I have a problem with corrupt wealth.

NGU.

[Bjorn Against]

113. How exactly are these quotes hateful?

"while the benefits to the BushCo family and friends would have kicked in the moment the bill was passed"

"People need the facts and the facts show GOP agenda to float all BIG YACHTS and leave the rest of us to drown."

"They aren't voting democrat either.The people we need to get to the polls hate the rich too.Don't you think the rich should be giving something back to the country that allowed them to get their billions?How much money do they need?I speak out about things that aren't fair,and giving the rich tax cuts when they already have a zillion ways to avoid paying taxes is unfair."

Alright so I will give you the one about roasting the rich over a fire, that one went over the top. These other three however are not in the slightest bit hateful, and for you to suggest they are says a lot.

By calling that first quote hateful, you seem to be suggesting that anyone who mentions the truth about the estate tax is hateful.

I am sick of all the accusations of the left being hateful, with nothing to back it up. Sure you had one quote but to find a single quote out of the large number posted here is not much. If anyone is being hateful it is those who accuse us of being hateful simply for disagreeing, as it certainly shows a lot of contempt for differences of opinion.

[sendero]

115. You could not be more wrong..

... if you tried. Class warfare has been waged against the poor and middle class for 25 years, and it's about to start going the other direction.

Don't waste your time, we all know what you are.

[Awsi Dooger]

118. I do think our wording could be different

Gore's "People vs. the Powerful" never sounded ideal to me. Using the word versus implies a conflict and not working together.

I also think we should be using raw numbers, not percentage. That summer of 2000 I met an 18 year old guy who was working in a pizza shop outside Saratoga. We chatted for 15 minutes while I waited for my pizza. He hated the top 2% message from Gore. The guy knew where that 2% figure broke down in terms of annual salary, he didn't think it was an outrageous figure, and said he was busting his ass to get to that level someday. He made no secret he was voting for Bush, and wouldn't listen to anything I said in regard to that vote being against his economic interests. When I asked him if someone making $5 million a year should be taxed more heavily he quickly said, "of course." I'm convinced we should be highlighting outer space salaries in our tax examples, ones almost no one can relate to, and not 2% or anything where someone making a high but not outlandish salary is considered rich.

[Dogmudgeon]

119. WE ARE LISTENING TO YOU

We hear you loud and clear.

Do YOU hear US?

You want us to be nicer about the rich so we don't alienate anybody. You assume we're way too confrontation over class issues.

Right?

Well, the GOP and the press are making that claim strongly, but the reality is different. Class "war" is just about non-existent on our part. Many DUers even support The Iron Law Of Whatever The Boss Wants, The Boss Gets.

A whole lot of us are getting screwed, and telling us that we should put on the happy face isn't going to be well-received. This is an issue where a little bit of inchoate outrage might go a long way, especially since we've been the on the receiving end of the lash, and we've borne the pain without so much as a whimper.

I'm not advocating a tidal wave of hatred -- simply an increase in the volume. Politics these days is not a nicey-nice endeavor; the Republicans are out for blood, hell-bent for leather, and playing to win -- By Any Means Necessary. And it's WE who are taking a beating, every day. I personally don't want to start slitting throats, although getting in a few faces would be an improvement. THAT is the kind of change in tone we need.

We tried nice. Nice didn't work. It's time to put on the gorilla suit and to put the fear of Jeebus into the assclowns. (And those among the rich who are on our side will understand and not take it personally. They may even enjoy watching their Quisling brethren do some serious sweating.)

I strongly suspect you're feeling hurt by all this negative feedback. Well, relax, nobody hates you. You seem to want to be an activist, which is commendable, but it's YOU that needs to do a little more listening concerning this issue. We all get into our own little echo chambers, and I think this is what happened to you this time. Nobody who wants to make changes can avoid these occasional "mismatches".

Their propaganda is strong. We must be stronger.

--p!

[xchrom]

123. i'm gonna kick your reply.

that's two i've kicked here so far.

[Odin2005]

120. "There is a class war going on and my side is winning" -Warren Buffet

Most rich people DON"T deserve thier wealth, they got thier wealth by stealing the wealth created by employees (that is, through corporate profits).

[rucky]

121. I don't think we have the same definition of "class warfare"

because in my opinion, their side has been fighting class warfare for years, and our side hasn't even realized it.

[Pale Blue Dot]

128. Nah. Thanks for playing, though!

nt

[Raksha]

130. I could NOT disagree more!!!

I don't think the Democrats have been playing the class warfare card nearly enough. They're too C.S. to play it, but CLASS WARFARE is the way to WIN!!! I hope you get flamed to hell for your post, and I'm more than happy to do my share.

[El Fuego]

132. .

:thumbsup:

[fishwax]

133. the repubs have been crying about the "class warfare" bit for years, even

though they gladly engage in class warfare--and, alas, quite successfully.

[Skittles]

135. oh PLEASE

YOU cringe? I am cringing RIGHT NOW.

[NMMNG]

138. Ok now

War has been declared against the middle class and poor, and we're supposed to sit aside and be wussies to avoid offending the aggressors. Maybe that's why those SOBs have achieved dominance in politics--Dems being too afraid to tell things like they are and opting instead for playing nicey-nice.

[Finder]

146. I don't think the OP wants us to be "wussies"...but is talking...

about the limbaugh, coulter tone used against an undefined "rich" class. How can we say the right wing is a party of hate if we engage in the same negative rhetoric?

[NMMNG]

181. I have nothing against "rich" people or wealth

I take serious issue with greed and maltreatment of those who have not, however, and have no qualms about saying so.

[ScreamingMeemie]

139. The day we quit is the day the middle class will cease to exist.

Nice try and welcome to DU.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

141. warbust, could I see you for just a moment?

You've made some errors that we've all probably made at one time or another:

The most basic one being sweeping generalizations with no back up or attributions. (responses to your post do not count - what did you base your premise on IN THE FIRST PLACE? That is what people want to know.)

Second, whether knowingly or not- you are repeating the talking points and spin of the media and the Republicans.If you're gonna discuss class warfare in this forum - you need to be a lot better versed on the entire issue and find out who is really waging class warfare. The Republicans like to "project". They accuse us of things they are doing because it sullies the debate when we turn it back on them. Why don't you read some Paul Krugman columns and report back when you are through?

I have done exactly the same thing you have done. As a new poster I once presented a thread repeating David Brooks's assertions that the Democrats were a negative rabble who had nothing positive to offer. And I was quite preachy in my thread. I had my ass handed back to me in about 10 seconds from fifty people. I was uninformed and I was just repeating talking points. Which is scary, because I have been a Democrat and a liberal my entire life and I always thought I was fairly welll informed. But I wasn't. If you can stick it out, this board will make you a better writer, a stronger debater and a more critical thinker. I applaud you for your energy in your other efforts against the war.

[Robbien]

142. Since you are telling us not to do something, I suggest we do more of it

I just love it when those from the right come in and give Democrats advice.

Using words such "You guys" gives away the fact you are not a Democrat/liberal. Also, saying such things as Liberals talk about raising taxes is pure GOP talk. Democrats never talk about raising taxes only the GOP keeps pushing the meme that Democrats talk about raising taxes.

Go back over to the right side of the net. Thanks for the so called "advice".

[izzybeans]

144. I hear someone buying a rightwing lie.

"Class warfare card" is the mantra they use to hide the warfare they wage on the working poor and middle class on behalf of the sect of rick folk who need this warfare in order to confirm their identity as "superior" and protect their market position from free competition.

There are plenty of rich dems. who do not play class warfare and see themselves as members of community; heaven forbid they do such a socialist thing like love thy neighbor. These folks deserve praise for they have not fallen into the craven intellectual vacuum afforded to the ultra wealthy individuals that choose to shield themselves from the world around them. The false self-made men who inherit their wealth and violate anti-trust legisilation via informal monopolies created by dense networks of friends and political suck ups.

But anyway...let's continue beating ourselves up with the ghosts of rightwing smear campaigns because that would be productive. Instead let's kiss the asses of those who want to crush us under the weight of their political connections and access to insider information. Class conflict exits and it does no one any justice to keep running and hiding from it. You can cheerlead goliath if you want. I prefer to walk with David.

[smokey nj]

145. Perhaps a little satire will help.......

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/30774

[ProudDad]

187. The problem with the Onion

is that it's JUST SO GODDAMN TRUE!!! All they have to do is print what's really happening.

It's as Tom Lehrer said when asked why he retired, "When Henry Kissinger won the Nobel Peace Prize I knew satire was DEAD!"

[Dora]

147. Why are you lecturing us about "tone" on OUR BOARD?

We're talking with each other, for chrissake. If we can't express our opinions honestly with each other, then wtf are we doing here?

We can say what we want here, as long as we respect certain rules of civility.

Please spare the lecture.

[Recursion]

149. Geez, what a crock

Somehow I woke up in a world where cutting taxes on the rich and raising them on the poor while cutting their wages and outsourcing their jobs isn't class warfare, but pointing out that you're doing it is.

In our obsession with finance and money we forget that the rich are, economically speaking, parasites. That's not to say that they are all bad people, certainly, but rich people don't create jobs, they destroy them.

[blue cat]

150. The repukes vilified Kerry for being rich

and their moronic base bought it. I don't agree with you at all.

[unpossibles]

151. there are two types of people this applies to

1 - the rich, which is not that many people.

2 - the fools who think they are rich, or soon will be, but are not really.

[HughBeaumont]

157. WE'RE playing the "class warfare" card??

Uh, is there a KIND way of pointing out how wrong it is for the rich to expect more and more and give and pay less and less while people who are burdened to the Hilton (i.e. US!) keep way less, have to deal with light years more insecurity and uncertainty about their future, are carrying these bastards collectively on our backs and cannot get anywhere in life because of it?

So SICK of this bullshit. "Class Warfare" is a Repuke dead horse that needs to be put in Jack Woltz's bed.

[mmonk]

158. No, we just need to show

that the logic behind the myth that if you just keep lowering taxes and take away anti-poverty programs or any safety net, everyone will become rich like winning the lottery and money will flood into the treasury like never before. By that logic, we should just set the income tax rate at 1%, right? Sounds like you might just believe the ideology of the right.

[GOTV]

161. Yeah, cuz if we talk about class war...

... that might make things difficult for those that are waging class warfare.

Any other problems we should avoid talking about?

[Wiley50]

171. Look. I live on $603 a month SSI disability

It was $579 last year
when I got it after a 4 year fight.
And, Yes, I live on a Yacht
a 28 foot sailboat
that I bought for $2500 on Ebay
with my back pay money from the SS
because I knew I couldn't live on $579
and be able to pay rent
and it was all the home I could afford.

Before my back surgury
I laid carpet for thirty years
and was in a different house working every day.
And I can tell you, as a rule,
the bigger the house, the bigger the asshole.
Almost all had more dollars than sense.
Most didn't even offer me a glass of water
and cringed when I asked to use their bathroom.

The poor are good people
they treated me much better
but they are just as brainwashed by cable TV and their preachers.
That's why they are voting against their best interests.

Wanna know more about that?
See Joe Bageant's blog
"Dispatches from the Class War"
at

www.joebageant.com

He's lived in both worlds and knows them intimately.

[DireStrike]

173. Change tone? Change message?

DU posters are hardly the public face of the party. Practically no prominent democratic figures ever talk about class warfare. The corporate media has forbidden it.

Remember Kerry's campaign? "Tax cuts for the wealthy", not "tax cuts for the rich". He wouldn't even say THAT. There is no way the D party can possibly tone down their talk about class warfare. It is already at the lowest possible setting, and it is possibly THE most important issue in America today.

Nobody stands up for the poor.

[mopinko]

175. there are a lot of jealous, bitter haters on this site

and it isn't just about money. read my journal to see what they think about people who are smart, and happen to know it. and dare to say it out loud.
it's not the money.

[JeffR]

182. Heavens to Betsy!

Is this silly thread still going?

:eyes:

[ProudDad]

184. Fuck the rich!

None of them vote for real democrats anyway!!!

They know where their real interests lie, why don't you???

[Trajan]

188. I love these 'you guys gotta' threads .....

Makes me want to stop what Im doing RIGHT THEN, and do exactly what the poster asks .....

FUCK .. Lets START playing the class warfare card .....

[sadiesworld]

191. Quit playing it?

The dems have forgotten the deck even includes one.

[El Fuego]

192. Next you'll probably tell us we're not allowed to use the guillotine.

"Heads on pikes are bad, blah blah BLAH."

:eyes:

[Igel]

194. My mother loves class warfare talk.

Use it, she'll vote for it.

On the other hand, she's always complaining. Retired working class. She has a McMansion in Arizona, a stock fund, a large IRA (her husband worked, most of her salary went into savings). My father has a large IRA (he was working class, retired with a large lump sum at 15% interest for 15 years). New car every few years--over 20k miles, and it's ready for the wrecking yard (she thinks).

They've gone on cruises to China, India, E. and W. Caribbean, E. and W. Mediterranean, Baltic. They spent a week in Britain.

And that was before my parents were forced to start using the capital from their IRAs.

Their interest income puts them above the poverty level. Add in her pension, and whatever SS gives them.

She loves class warfare talk, she's solidly one of the poor--and she honestly believes she's one of them as she discusses Israeli couscous and the merits of different cruise lines.

[SPCAworks]

195. well

the disparity between rich and poor has never been greater. The government should certainly use the wealth of the rich to help normal working class people. I wish the government offered 0% mortgages with no credit/income check to everyone who makes less than 100k per year.

[leesa]

196. What crap this is. Please stomp on my face and piss on my beaten body

Mr Rich Man, and then take all my stuff because you deserve it Oh Master!

[zann725]

197. Disagree totally. Face TRUTH head-on. It IS "class warfare." Katrina was

...as was the '00 and '04 elections, and the EXCLUSION (non-"counting") of poor white, and non-white votes by E.V. machines and their "officials."

Class Warfare needs to be addressed head-on. It IS one of our strongest points...in "talking Truth to Authority."

To ignore it, "sugar-coat" it, roll-over and ignore it would be NON-"Democratic" in tradition and principle.

It takes courage to stand up for the Truth and We-the-People. But THAT's what being "Democrat" SHOULD mean. 'Least so I thought...

[proud patriot]

198. I'm locking this thread

the op is no longer with us

proud patriot Moderator
Democratic Underground