A lunch with fascists

[alvarezadams]

Yes - real and apologetic Fascists. You run into them alot over here in Spain, just as you can run into Communists, Anarchists or any number of -ists. Pretty much all of them participate in the body politic, by voting, by discussing politics in "tertulias" over coffee and "copas".

Mt business partner is an unapologetic falangist. Some of his friends are also falangists, some are fascists, others are monarchists and a couple are "Carlistas" - defending an alternative branch of Spain's Bourbon royal family. My grandad was a falangist - so I'm pretty used to this sort of thing, even if my dad is a socialist and I'm a rabid social libertarian.

These people are the epitome of "the enemy" for one of my political stripe. Yet because of Spain's society and history it is possible to have civil discourse with virtually anyone with no fear whatsoever of even a heated discussion. The differences are accepted, proselytes aren't sought out, and friendly conversation is valued more than "winning a point". It's altogether a healthy society in this regard, unless one runs into an Opus Dei Partido Popular type of person - the closest thing to a Republican that can be found over here.

Today's lunch took place in the typical Spanish August atmosphere. Over half the country is on vacation so things are slow - no rush to return to the office, no problem with a second brandy or Scotch over the breadcrumbs. Conversation turns to politics - and for once I push the subject over the Atlantic and towards the US political spectrum.

I have felt that the American right is quite close to falangism for quite some time. I was partially disabused of this notion today in a way that is even more frightening than the similitude between "Republicanism" and fascism.

Let me say that these folks are politically "aware". They read their papers, they speak unceasingly of politics - they're not neophytes nor casual "anti-Americans". They know of the DLC, they're aware of neoliberal economics, they understand neoconservatism, they try to comprehend Christian fundamentalism in its American format. So it is hard to readily dismiss their "neutral" or at least "disinterested" POV.

What do they have to say about the GOP? It is indeed falangist... but without the sugar coating.

They don't understand how they can sell an ideology that pushes bitter pills without any appeasement. They agree with most of the objectives but cannot understand how they can push virtual serfdom without at least public health. For once their words evade them - what the American right propounds is tantamount to a return to the Middle Ages without the benefit of the Rennaissance.

As for the DLC - they see it clearly enough as a 5th column. They state that such a "movement" should be kicked out and buried.

All in all a curious experience.

[kiki]

1. I'm all for reasoned political debate...

...but when it comes to modern fascists, I have one thing to say:

You can form an orderly queue or all gather round at once, but either way, every one of you scumbags can suck my ever-lovin' d*ck.

Seriously, how can a fascist even make a rational point? Their whole schtick is based on bullshit.

[leveymg]

2. I also have enjoyed my share of conversations with people on the Right

The ones who seem to have the most to say are the Libertarians, former Goldwater Republicans who instinctively distrust Big Business and Big Government. We seem to agree on the nature of the problem -- too much power in the hands of institutions that exploit, deceive, and destroy the rest of us -- but differ on solutions. I seem to trust government more as a corrective tool, while they prefer that government power devolve. I've learned a lot from my Libertarian friends, and they, I think, have come around to seeing that the biggest threat to us all is the corporatist Right.

[lumberjack_jeff]

3. "A return to the Middle Ages without the benefit of the Rennaissance."

Very well said.

[RaleighNCDUer]

4. "...falangist... but without the sugar coating.."

When I was a kid my dad was stationed at the Navy base at Rota, in southern Spain, back when Franco was still alive. I fell in love with the country, it was beautiful and peaceful and safe. Only two caveats - we were not supposed to ever talk politics with the locals, and if you walked on the beach after dark the Guardia Civil just might shoot you. That's how they discouraged drug runners from smuggling hash from Morocco. You just didn't mess with the guys in the funny hats.

Of course, as a kid, I was clueless about the politics behind it. I knew that Franco was getting old, and people were worried about what would happen when he died, if there would be some kind of power struggle. Then, when it happened a couple years after I left there, the Spanish people proved themselves to be extremely civilised.

I'm afraid I don't have so much hope for this country. We celebrate being barbarians.

[TomClash]

5. No wonder you can talk to these people

They sound reasonable compared to Bush Republicans.

Here's the answer to your friends' question: you can sell an ideology of bitter pills and relatively minimal economic protection by massive amounts of private and public borrowing along with generous tax cuts for the wealthy and paltry tax cuts for the middle class. Then you conduct a class war with your "middle class" allies against the poor, working class and immigrants. Then you change the subject by forcing the people you are screwing to focus on "terror" or "gay marriage" or "Jesus" or whatever the opiate of the masses du jour is. Finally, you buy off the "opposition party" with cash, consulting agreements, campaign contributions, access to future wealth and so on - just before you clobber the obdurate by throwing them off the gravy train and excoriating them with criticism and pressure.

[GreenArrow]

6. here's how you sell the bitter pill

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

The Boogeyman's out to getcha!

[kenny blankenship]

7. "...an ideology that pushes bitter pills without any appeasement"

They don't understand how they can sell an ideology that pushes bitter pills without any appeasement. They agree with most of the objectives but cannot understand how they can push virtual serfdom without at least public health.

It sells because our Falangists are Protestants specifically Calvinist Protestants, not Catholics; and they come from a religious background that assumes not only the categorical damnation of Man, but also believes that only a few lucky people will be redeemed by God at the end of the world and saved for eternal life, while the rest will spend eternity in Hell. According to this view, nothing that any of those in the remainder can do can alter their predestined fate--not good works, not prayer, nothing.
You don't have to go to church or even believe in God to have had your attitudes about social/class relations formed by the Calvinist cultural tradition. It's that vast but ill-defined "heritage" and "traditional American values" that politicians in America are always claiming to defend.

Just think of the internal contradictions between a fledgling local tradition of government authorized by majority rule on the one hand and a centuries long, ancestral-cultural tradition of religious belief that holds that the majority is, by its unalterable nature, wretched, worthless, and condemned by God to eternal punishments.

It is part of the cultural DNA of a country whose institutions were formed and filled out by communities of such beliefs that they should inflict punitive hierarchical political structures and social policies that force the majority of people --the struggling middle class and the poor--to grind their noses in the dirt. That's expected; but what is most shocking about our "traditional values" is while it grants authority to an elite to enjoy their divine favor and not to care about the unfortunate damned, this shared cultural DNA also induces the poor and ordinary majority to accept these punishments as the natural order of life.

[alvarezadams]

8. Ouch!

Quite an indictment!

[kenny blankenship]

10. As a Protestant of a Calvinist denomination myself I can be expected to be

a bit dour in my judgements. And since these are my people that I'm talking about, I feel free/bound to tell what I know about them. As an adult I have never been a practicing believing adherent of any church, so I'm not bashing Protestantism to extol the virtues of Catholicism. Catholicism has had its own tendencies towards radical inegalitarianism, which manifest themselves in history and also maybe in your modern day Falangist acquaintances, but the dominant doctrinal tradition of Catholicism still maintains the equality of souls in the eyes of God, and the availability of salvation to all. These twin foundational concepts were rejected by Calvinism. (They can creep back in and do, but the assertion is a general assertion about Calvinist Protestantism's dominant traits and origins). It would be impossible for there not to be serious broad-stroke implications for a society founded on these rejections.

Good stuff has been written on this general subject of Protestantism-capitalism-American-politics in books ranging from Max Weber's The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism first published in 1905, to Kevin Phillips' latest title, American Theocracy. (confession: Neither one of which have I really read) Weber's book is one of those works that can be legitimately referred to as a "tome". It's big and heavy going. His aim was to explain the origins of capitalism in a non-Marxist way: whereas Marxists would explain the traits of Protestantism as outgrowths of evolving economic relations and pressures--the effect of the radical selfishness of capitalism-- Weber sought to explain the habits and practices of early capitalists as the outgrowth of new Protestant teachings about the spiritual value of worldly activities. Phillips' book deals (i gather from hearing him interviewed about it) mainly with the consequences of the settlement in the American south of certain cultural groups from British Isles (religious-ethnic strains of Britons not from the dominant class or religion). And he relates the current political map of the United States to the diaspora of southerners, bearing their particular religious heritage, to the territories of the plains and Rockies. Not having read his book, I can't say how much he investigates the implications of the doctrines of Calvinist sects, but I know he's aware of the powerful contrast between the politics of "heartland" states carved out the old Missouri Territory where the white settlement is characterized by Protestant southerners, and the politics of those states and counties where the white settlement is characterized more by German Catholics and Lutherans and Scandinavian Protestants and Catholics. The former group are reliable as Republicans, almost as uniform as the states of the Confederacy, while the latter group are the only "heartland" states and counties where people still vote for Democrats.

[deaniac21]

9. I guess you guys can be civil in discourse because all of the

country's anger is taken out on.....
http://www.prijatelji-zivotinja.hr/jpg/bullfight,%20PETA%20pic,%20please%20credit%20Tony%20Moore.jpg

[RaleighNCDUer]

11. There is no anger in the corrida (is that the right term?)

It is art and science and dance and sport.

Yes, it is bloody, and I'm not sure I could see it as I did when I was a kid, but there is so much more to it that sticking a cow with long knives. Fighting bulls are bred for strength and aggression and are more than a match for any man in the ring -- the picadors who work the bull first merely make it possible for the matador to enter the ring with any expectation of getting out in one piece. And when you see the bull charging the horses you are very aware that this is no helpless beast being publicly slaughtered.

I'm not into blood sports, but this is not bear-baiting or cock-fighting or dog fighting.

Just sayin'.