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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 10:06 AM
Original message
Dem. Party divide is not Liberal-Conservative, or Liberal-Centrist...
Edited on Tue Aug-01-06 10:07 AM by SaveElmer
Obviously there are idealogical differences in the party...but if you look at them in comparison to differences with the Republican Party as currently cinstituted...they are pretty minor.

The divide is about method and message.

We can have debates here over say National Health Insurance, and we will get a debate that appears idealogical, but really it is more about a view of the process we should go through to achieve our goals.

For example, if you pinned down those not in favor of pushing a single-payer plan, you would probably find that most of them would actually welcome such a system. And if you pinned down someone in favor of pushing such a plan, they would probably admit that passage is probably not possible in the current climate.

The divide between Dennis Kucinich (and many others) and Hillary Clinton (and many others) is not so much about idealogy as about method and message. Kucinich believes it is important to get out our position on a single payer plan, and stick to it. Do not compromise, but take an unwavering position and bring the country to us. Someone like Hillary Clinton would welcome a single payer plan, but believes the country is not ready to accept such a bold plan, and so the best way to get there is to nibble at it one piece at a time, with the view that it is ok to compromise as long as some progress is made.

I take the latter view, but I recognize the value of the former. Dennis Kucinich is a chest thumper -and I am not using that as a pejorative - someone who boldly articulates a goal, and sticks to that goal without compromise. He believes it is important to convince the country of the correctness of that vision. Paul Wellstone was the same way...I admire both men.

However, men like Kucinich are not viable in a national election. The type of person that is going to be elected is more the Hillary Clinton type (just an example, not looking for a Hillary electibility debate). Someone who is going to work within the system and is gonna compromise.

There is nothing wrong with that. Every great President started out that way, recognizing the politicial limits of what they were proposing. But, every one of those great Presidents had someone like Dennis Kucinich pushing them down the path, and articulating where we were going to ultimately end up.

Abraham Lincoln, hardly an abolitionist ultimately freed the slaves, pushed along by people such as Frederick Douglass and Sojourner Truth. But his correct political instincts told him he could not advocate that position until the right time. FDR, with an insensitivity to race had Eleanor to bring him along, and thus began the identification with the Democratic Party among African Americans. JFK and LBJ had MLK laying the groundwork for civil rights legislation and the Great Society...

In fact I would argue a President cannot be truly great without such a presence...and I would argue we cannot be viable electorally, or as an effective governing party without both types of people.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
1. The real divide is working class vs. Wall Street
and that is what the struggle at the heart of the party is all about. That is where party conservatism comes from, the Wall Street Democrats not wanting to rock the financial boat--they've gotten a great deal from the GOP--but willing to toss us a few social issues to tell us they're different from the GOP they clearly want to stay in power.

The party can't win without its base. Unfortunately, that's just fine for the Wall Street Dems at the center of party power.
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Jeffersons Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. your partly right warpy...
The REAL divide in AMERICA is between the top 3% of wealth-holders and the REST of us. That top 3% has corrupted almost ALL of the Republicans and far too many Democrats. Offsetting the problem might consist of voters simply looking to how their representatives voted on THREE big tax breaks given ONLY to that group. No leader can serve these two masters because the much smaller group is intent on attaining even more power by oppressing other people, which they consider beneath them.
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #1
15. I agree with you to a point. My feeling is the "Corporate" portion of
our party doesn't respect our point of view and isn't willing to work to earn our respect and money. Why would they bother when they can easily receive large sums from corporations that they feel closer to and are more in a position to do favors for. In other words, they are to one sided. I realize we need money to run and win, but ultimately, it is suppose to be the people who vote and it is suppose to be the peoples choice. It seems way too often however, it is the corporations making the choice.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
2. I disagree strongly.
Edited on Tue Aug-01-06 10:16 AM by redqueen
I would vote for a centrist (corporatist) Dem in a heartbeat over a Republican, at least in the next election... but no, I think the differences are far more significant than just method / message.

11 Senate Democrats voted for the pro-pharmaceutical industry medicare drug plan. 18 Senate Democrats voted for the pro-banking industry bankruptcy reform bill.

Those are not message or method issues. Those are just two examples of serious ideological differences between corporatist Democrats and closer-to-reality Democrats.

Multinational corporations are attempting to take over the world. We cannot afford to cede ONE INCH of ground in the fight to prevent them from making any further progress.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. A simple head count does not tell the story...
Any more than Willam Seward advocating putting a right to slavery in the constitution is reflective of his actual views towards slavery. He advocated such a thing, in direct contravention of his earlier, nearly abolitionist positions, in order to increase the viability of the Republican Party and to keep slavery out of western territories...

It is necessary to look at he political considerations each person goes through to see what the true motivation is, and to determine whether that person is just a hopeless right winger, or someone that can be worked with on other issues. There are always going to be some of the former, but there are going to be many more of the latter. Every legislator, no matter how much we may admire them, is going to disappoint you from time to time.

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Do you think Seward had reason to believe that amendment would pass?
Was he taking a risk he could be reasonably sure would not end up biting him in the ass?

These Dems were not taking far-out risks as a symbolic act. Their votes for these pro-coporate, anti-citizen bills certainly do not appear to me to be part of some larger scheme to further their goals of better serving the public, as compared to corporate interests.

Please, enlighten me... what do you think their true motivation was? I tend to suspect it was keeping their campaign cash coming in... or possibly serving as something to barter in the horse-trading that goes on behind the scenes - but if that was the case... horse-trading for what? What have they given us in Congress since then to show us the fruit of their efforts in betraying our trust? Help me out here... I'm very curious to know...
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Seward was taking a huge chance...
He still had designs on the Presidency...he was the darling of the "left-wing" of the Republican Party, and making that speech hurt him with alot of people...including his own wife...

I haven't analyzed the votes of each of these people...but I do know that Joe Biden voted for the bankruptcy Bill..

Why? Because he is a Senator from Delaware, and virtually every credit card company is based in his state, and is a large employer of his constituents. He voted partially because it represented the interests of his constituents, and partially for his own political viability. That is always gonna be the case.

Does that mean Joe Biden wouldn't work for Health Care reform...no!

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. Huh? How does his vote to help banks screw people over
help his constituents? Banks would what... go out of business if they weren't allowed to keep issuing credit cards with usury interest rates and then force the people who agreed to them to have to pay for them no matter why they had to file bankruptcy?

How does that make sense?

And I didn't ask "did it hurt his image" I asked if the amendment had a chance of passing. WAY different context there.

I'd be willing to bet that Biden's method of working for healthcare reform would benefit the healthcare / insurance industry first, and people second.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Seward proposed it hoping it would pass...
To avoid secession...yes.

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. I'm going to have to read about that...
I don't see how making slavery a right under the constitution would keep it out of western territories...

Corporatist Dems are a cancer. Their lack of any reason besides appeasement of their corporate donors shows where their more fundamental loyalty lies. Yes, they'll vote in the public interest, but only if it doesn't conflit with corporate desires.
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TrueFunkSoldier Donating Member (215 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. The divide is between...
DemoCraps: LIEberman, both Nelsons, DiFi, Dodd, Clinton, Emmanuel and the entire corporatist DLC...

...and

Democrats: Frank, Conyers, Feingold, Waters, Jackson-Lee, and all the true warriors and lovers of this great country who stand up for Truth rather than what's politically expedient!
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. An in 1860 the divide was between...
Frederick Douglass, William Lloyd Garrison and other freedom loving patriots who stand up for truth rather than what's politically expedient.

...and

Abraham Lincoln, Salmon Chase, William Seward and William Bates...slavery compromising, head in the sand politicians willing to sell their soul to get elected...

The goals of group one, were accomplished by those in group two...








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TrueFunkSoldier Donating Member (215 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. I'll say AMEN to that...
and even though I dislike HRC, I will be the first to vote for her over any of these fascist, neocon Nazi fucks in the Repug party who obviously hate this country and what it stands for! And that's for sure!
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eallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
4. I think we are more fractured than the GOP.
The GOP today is dominated by two, related ideologies, the fundamentalists who want to turn the US into a Christian state, and the neocons, who regardless of their own religious belief, carry a war ideology about using US power to transform the mideast. While those ideologies are different, they are at this moment largely compatible, and allow the GOP to maintain a fairly sharp ideological focus.

In contrast, the Democratic Party includes a broad mixture of groups, often holding conflicting views. For most Democrats, (as for most Americans, and most Europeans) social programs are viewed as government policies funded from taxes on an underlying capitalist economy, in which we all have an interest in its continued success. But, there are a minority of socialists who want to eliminate that underlying economy, in favor of something radically different. There are also a minority of radical environmentalists who want to eliminate that underlying economy, in favor of something much lower tech and closer to nature. The latter two groups have a more natural ideological home in the Socialist Worker's Party or the Green Party, respectively. But like the free-market fundamentalists who uncomfortably ride with the GOP despite its continued failure to do anything more than give them lip service, many choose to ride with the Democratic Party, in the foolish hope that someday it will be America's socialist party.

Were that the only divide, the Democratic Party would be not much different from the GOP. But it isn't. On energy policy, there are those who think that current oil prices are the result of a conspiracy, and the government should move to make it cheaper. There are others who think current oil prices are the inevitable result of increased world demand and plateauing world supply, perhaps presaging peak oil, and that if the more sensible government policy would be a straight tax on each barrel of oil, to accelerate conservation and alternate energies. (There is yet a third group who don't seem to realize that these two views are contradictory, and these two policies at cross-purposes.)

The Democratic Party includes most civil libertarians. Being a civil libertarian, that in my view is one of its chief attractions. In opposition, it also includes a fair share of those who favor more protective laws in areas from pornography to riding motorcycles, and the socialists previously mentioned.

The minority of Americans who are secular have gravitated to the Democratic Party, because it is today the only effective opposition to the religious right, which now dominates the GOP. But that is a relatively small minority, perhaps only 15%. The majority of Democrats are religious. Some join with the secular group in pushing very strongly for the separation of church and state, and divorce of civil policy from religious belief. There are others who want religious liberals to stand up to religious conservatives.

There are Democrats who support Israel, almost blindly and without criticism. There are other Democrats who believe that Hezbollah is a legitimate resistance organization.

On each of the above issues, it's possible of course to point out that most Democrats fall on one side, and only a minority on the other. That then lends a tempting comparison to the GOP. That overlooks an important difference. The large group that dominates the GOP is its radical and vocal branch. It is the moderate Republican who is in the minority and marginalized. In contrast, the group that dominates the Democratic Party is its moderates, much to the disappointment of its various more vocal and radical groups. In the GOP, the wingnut fundamentalists can shape policy and elect Congressmen and Presidents. In the Democratic Party, the Greens are marginalized and Kucinich and Sanders are about the most the socialists can do.

I don't have a solution for this. The Democratic Party is still the home to sanity in American politics.
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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
13. Rebuttal
"Obviously there are idealogical differences in the party...but if you look at them in comparison to differences with the Republican Party as currently cinstituted...they are pretty minor."

In fact, the differences between the DNC and the GOP are pretty minor. The biggest "differences" relate to talkingpoint issues that are made to seem important because these electoral issues eclipse the REAL issues ... that never become an important part of the political debate.

With regards to the DLC this is even more marked. On the key issues their positions aren't merely similar - they're IDENTICAL, albeit couched in different rhetorical tones.

"We can have debates here over say National Health Insurance, and we will get a debate that appears idealogical, but really it is more about a view of the process we should go through to achieve our goals."

The GOP and DLC desire universal COVERAGE and see the private sector as the means and the end. This is anathema for progressives.


"The type of person that is going to be elected is more the Hillary Clinton type (just an example, not looking for a Hillary electibility debate). Someone who is going to work within the system and is gonna compromise."

COMPROMISE? From the progressive perspective this "type" of candidate is the mirror of how you characterized Kucinich. They are chest-thumpers for the status quo, desiring and pushing and plotting for an even more laissez faire cleptocracy than what we're suffering from now.

"In fact I would argue a President cannot be truly great without such a presence...and I would argue we cannot be viable electorally, or as an effective governing party without both types of people."

I agree with you. Pity that the DLC would do without such a presence - they're doing their best to silence any progressives.

They're worse than the GOP, a 5th column that is helping to push the spectrum to the right.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
16. There is no real divide - its a Rove ploy
while different factions have always had differences among themselves, I've never see the party more united.
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
17. I think there are people like me who really don't belong in
the DEM party because we are too far left but we have no other viable option at the moment. I don't do third parties as long as the system is how it is.
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OregonDem Donating Member (242 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
18. The fact that we don't goosestep together like the Repukes,
Edited on Tue Aug-01-06 12:07 PM by OregonDem
is a good thing. Our party looks more like the democratic process where different ideas can be exchanged and debated and even though I sometimes disagree with what is said here I know that what we have share in common is greater than our differences.

I belong to no organized party. I am a Democrat. -- "Will Rogers"
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Hi OregonDem!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
19. Don't believe it. This is the DLC trying to triangulate on us
Edited on Tue Aug-01-06 12:36 PM by HereSince1628
Hoping that by arguing that all that Bush-sucking cooperation with conservatives isn't going to hurt them.

With Liebermann in trouble we've finally got the DLC's attention. They took the desire of the party's base as the mere babbling of a few radical bloggers on the left.

Now, they've noticed a couple of things...

The base isn't going to tolerate being ignored as Democratic conservatives try to steal Republican voters.

The base really has moved to the left we are not a minor element.

They really really don't want to be considered disconnected from us.
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boolean Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
21. Here is why I know you're wrong
We've tried it your way. For years now. Let's have principles, but let's not stand behind them with conviction. That's not leadership. The only reason Clinton was able to get away with it is because he's charismatic and charming. And he wasn't able to get both houses behind him, anyway. The repukes have been using the Democrats' lack of conviction for years to attack them. It's time to try something different.

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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
22. We have had this discussion before
and you're absolutely correct. Furthermore, i wonder as always how many of those urging "no compromise" are really working against the Democratic party, the way Rick Santorum's Green chums are.

It's worth noting that Kucinich couldn't even pull 10% of Ohio's vote as a favrotie son candidate, much less a national following. That wasn't because Ohio Democrats didn't know what his position on issues was, or that they were misled by the media, or any of the other "dog ate my homework" excuses.
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union_maid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
23. I believe in compromise, but also some leadership
I just got an e-mail from my DLC congressman. I'll vote for him. I think he's basically unopposed anyway, but even so, there'll be more good votes from him than there would from a Republican in his place. BUT, this e-mail was about healthcare and this paragraph is very, very discouraging"

There are a number of plans that would address this problem. I am currently examining a number of different ways to provide access to those Americans who do not have health care. Any workable universal health care proposal should (1) utilize private insurance companies, (2) ensure that employer-provided plans and existing health care programs (such as Medicaid, Medicare, and Medigap) are intact, (3) offer refundable and advanceable tax credits to offset the costs for employers or individuals and (4) mandate that all citizens be covered. I am analyzing the different plans that have been proposed and am considering introducing legislation that would mandate universal and affordable health care for Americans.


We're so past a time when this could work. If we can't afford to cover everyone without adding a layer of profit for private insurers, we certainly can't afford to it and provide that profit. The way we used to pay for healthcare no longer works. How much more does it cost to provide Medicaid, Medicare, Medigap, various state run programs for low income people whose income is above poverty level and private insurance as well. It's madness and it might not be such a hard sell to get people behind a a single payer or similar program now as it was a decade ago. Healthcare is much more of a problem or potential problem for people and many, many more people have managed care or HMOs than they did then. No, we can't get this done unless the Democrats win control of Congress or the White House or both, but then we probably can't get the DLC plan done without that either. At least not in a way that really offers ordinary Americans protection.
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