Howard Dean's Religion Problem (The New Republic)

[amyforclark04]

TNR is a subscriber service but here is a link to The New Republic
http://tnr.com/


From ...TNR
Howard Dean's religion problem.
Beyond Belief
by Franklin Foer



One day, a truly secular candidate might be able to run for president without suffering at the polls. But that day won't be soon. This is, for better or worse, an openly religious country that prefers its politicians to be openly religious, too--a trend that has only become more pronounced in recent national elections. A 2000 poll by the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press found that 70 percent of Americans want their president to be a person of faith. This religious vote isn't just concentrated in Southern states that a Democrat has no chance of carrying. It also saturates the Midwest, where Dean would have to win to have a chance at the presidency. (According to the American Religious Identification Survey, only about 15 percent of respondents in Wisconsin, Iowa, and Illinois describe themselves as nonreligious.) Indeed, in the last five presidential elections, the candidate who more aggressively conveyed his religiosity (whether honestly or not so honestly) won. Seen in this light, a popular contest between Dean's secularism and George W. Bush's heartfelt faith could be, well, no contest. And the same, in turn, could be true of the election....

There's more to this article and if you'd like to read it please email me .... firedancer4683 at hotmail dot com

[SahaleArm]

1. DU has a 4-paragraph limit - Have a link?

[amyforclark04]

9. Sorry about that!!!

Ahh sorry guys!! :(

[SahaleArm]

11. You can go back and edit it n/t

[Terwilliger]

2. you need to cut that article way down

[IndianaGreen]

3. You are limited to 4 paragraphs, per DU rules, and there is no link

I suggest you edit your post before your hour is up. Thank you.

[Democrats unite]

4. Amy thanks for the article, but...

Here on DU, you are not to post the entire article, only the upto the first four paragraphs then link the rest of the article.

By the way Merry Christmas & welcome to DU.

[Myra]

5. Please trim the column to 4 paragraphs *max* Amy right away

Or you could get DU in trouble.

[stickdog]

6. What religion is TNR again?

Dean's too secular.

Dean's too religious.

Dean's opponents are too rich.

[TLM]

14. The real issue....

Dean's winning too much.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Scott Lee]

28. A "genuine" candidate?

Tell us what makes a candidate "genuine" if you please. If it's religion, aren't you being exactly as those you oppose on the religious right?

Also, where did you see that Howard Dean only got religious this month? Last I checked, he's been a Christian all his life.

You know what's worse than naivete? Ignorance.

[bearfartinthewoods]

18. dean hasn't won anything yet

or have i missed a primary?

[Donna Zen]

23. On "Inside Politics" today

Woodruff, Brazile, and Buchanan declared the primaries over. And they weren't kidding. So congratulations are in order for all Dean supporters (and the corporate media), you won, and no one gets to vote. Well, that's even better than going to visit Fat Tony.

There was more to this one hour display that was even worse. But then, who cares what we think?

[SahaleArm]

24. Surprise, Surprise...

Woodfluff, Brazile-Rove, and Buchanan joining Al Gore to declare Dean the winner. Democracy in action - complete with media orchestration :puke:

[jsw_81]

43. Oh please

You know as well as I do that If Wesley Clark was the front-runner and raising tens of millions of dollars you'd be jumping for joy.

As for Dean's religion "problem," there isn't one. He's a progressive Christian who strongly supports church/state separation, and I doubt that anyone (except the fundies who are going to vote for Bush no matter what) will have a problem with that.

[bearfartinthewoods]

56. this is one of the things that bugs me

the American media used to be routinely bashed as being a slave to bushco yet their part of this push for an early coronation of dean isn't even scrutinized????

[Scott Lee]

30. Since when do you take orders from Woodruff, Brazile and Buchanan?

Is there something you need to tell us?

[amyforclark04]

35. Of course Buchanan wants this over...

If his people went up against Clark they'd really have to WORK HARD!

[stickdog]

49. Buchanan will probably be voting for Dean.

Along with many true conservatives who feel they were neoconned by the Boy King.

[bearfartinthewoods]

37. CRAP

Corrupted Rat Assed Press

[RetroLounge]

45. No, but you might have missed the actual sentence

"Dean's winning too much"

as in present tense. Still happening. Hasn't completed yet.

-ing

[MODemocrat]

19. You're right about that

It doesn't matter what Dean says, when he says it or how he says it, he will be criticized by the ones who want him stopped. All this negative crapola is just making him stronger and more determined! :thumbsup: :dem:

[jonnyblitz]

46. Andrew Sullivan used to be the editor.

that should give you an idea.

[demnan]

7. When you post

please post 2 or 3 pointed paragraphs from the piece and then post a link. You are new here so I suggest that you read the rules for posting.

Welcome! :hi:

[poopyjr]

8. Dunno if anyone's told you, but cut it to 4 paragraphs.

[BobbyJay]

10. Cut it down to 4 paragraphs

thanx

[IndianaGreen]

12. Amy, please post the link to the story

so that we may all read it. Thank you.

You are catching on!

:)

[ClarkGraham2004]

13. Amy, please edit this to 4 paragraphs and post a link

thanks.

[Myra]

15. Phew, thanks for the trim Amy. I'd hate to give the mods a heart attack

For the holidays.

:evilgrin:

[IndianaGreen]

16. Thank you, Amy

You are getting the hang of it.

Happy Holidays!

[retyred]

20. When I read this

dean, who has said little about religion while campaigning said he expects to increasingly include references to Jesus and God in his speeches as he stumps in the South why does the names Pat robertson, Jerry Falwell, and Jim Jones Baker, come to mind?



retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”
So I read this book

[Rose Siding]

21. Because you already have issues with Dean?

Otherwise, what might come to mind is that the more familiar the public becomes with a candidate, the more we learn about them. -Like what's their religion? Will they hide it from the people or will it be addressed, particularly in areas of the country where religion usually plays a part in their political decisions?

[Rose Siding]

22. Looks more like the DLC's Howard Dean problem

rather than any prob for Dean.

I do enjoy seeing them hyperventilate in a great big hissy, though, so thanks for posting.

[Donna Zen]

25. Close your eyes

And for one brief and shining moment, imagine this board if John Kerry had made a statement about saying Jesus more in speeches in the South. Are you feeling the love yet?


Pssst!

To the best of my knowledge, Kerry actually is a fairly regular church goer as is Clark.

[maddezmom]

31. but, but, but, Dean is secular

You are correct if any other candidate had said they would use their religion in the south, the shit would really hit the fan.

[DemBones DemBones]

39. Yep, when it's Dean, his supporters

find creative ways to support things they've never supported before. I'm waiting for him to announce he's now opposed to abortion and the experience of seeing their heads swivel completely around on their necks.

[mike from ri]

26. amy, you are exactly right

and so is the tnr article.

[papau]

27. Why post a FreeRepublic item? - Is FR's copywright busting news?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1045457/posts

[Scott Lee]

29. I have an answer for this, but it would get deleted.

So uh....use your imagination ;)

[janx]

48. Yep. You don't even have to be terribly imaginative.

.

[jonnyblitz]

59. I was thinking the exact same thing. n/t

[izzie]

32. How can anyone be put out with a man who is a member of....

the church this country was founded on?

[bread_and_roses]

40. You are joking, right?

This country was not "founded" on a church. There is this little document called the constitution...
(and no, I don't think Dean or anyone talking about their own faith is unconstitutional. I DO think that using religion to garner votes subverts the principles of a secular State and that trying to out-God Bush is a losing proposition)

[jsw_81]

44. What?

I suggest you go back to school or read a good book on U.S. history. We were NOT founded on any church or religion. Yes, many of the founding fathers were religious, but they made it clear that this was to be a secular government.

[stickdog]

50. The Mayflower Compact was, in fact, influential.

Maybe you should read some history yourself.

[jsw_81]

52. The Mayflower Compact was one of our founding documents?

News to me!

[stickdog]

55. It was influential on the Brit colonies' fledgling political theory. (nt)

[bread_and_roses]

60. The Iraquoi

Book of the Great Law (sometimes called I think "Constitution of the Five Nations") had considerable influence, I have read, on our Founding Documents. I don't see Dean performing a Native American prayer ceremony. You are using the same arguement the RR do when they say we should have the Ten Commandments in our Courthouses because it is more than a Religious document.

(Note: I do NOT say you are a RR, I read your posts and know better; I say that in this case you are using a similar and I believe equally flawed arguement)

But all that is diversion. The issue is using Religion deliberately to influence votes, which I think is a mistake of both strategy and principle.

[John_H]

33. All of this real reporting stuff is going to mess up the CAMPAIGN, man.

Win or lose, the Dean supporters' first love is the campaign The grass roots. The power to the people. The big feel-good. The I'm a part of something "big". We lose, so what? We were part of the movement, man.

I think it's great to see more and more people starting to get it. It ain't about the movement. It's about getting Chimp the hell out. It's about saving the country.

[DemBones DemBones]

38. Yes! This is NOT about Dean supporters! Nor

Clark supporters, Kerry supporters, Kucinich supporters, etc. This is about saving the US from the neocons and their hard right, imperialistic agenda.

We must run the best candidate, the one who can set himself apart from Bush and give the people a clear choice, the one people can and will vote for. The Dean supporters are as selfish as Nader's 2000 supporters, insisting on their guy, right or wrong, because he's made them feel powerful. And you can bet there'll be no apologies from them after Dean gives Bush a landslide for his second term.

A woman on C-SPAN (a Bush supporter) just said "Give Dean enough rope and he'll hang himself. Dean's a fool, a fool! "

And now a Dean follower says she and other Dean supporters will not vote for another Dem if Dean doesn't win.

It ain't gonna be pretty.

[stickdog]

51. Dean's opponents are scared shitless by our political awakening.

They'd gladly give us Dean trimmed in gold for two full terms if we'd just promise to go back to being politically apathetic.

When will establishment Dems get it?

WE ARE THE PARTY. YOU LOSERS FUCKED US WHEN YOU TRIANGULATED YOURSELVES INTO IMPERIALISTIC FEAR MONGERING CORPORATE GLOBALIST WHORES . WE'RE NOT GONNA LISTEN TO ANY MORE OF YOUR WEAK ASS DRIBBLE SHIT.

[Justice]

58. "we are the party" "you are the losers"

"we are the party" "you are the losers"

Even lower case and unbolded, it sounds sinister.

So, if I don't agree with you or with Dean, I am one of them.

I don't think so - this is my party too. Remember how you felt when republicans took the american flag for themselves?

The democratic party belongs to ALL democrats, not just Dean supporters.

Way to go on inclusiveness, and bring the party together dude.

[RaLpH wIGgUm]

34. oh no

Now we have the religious right running over this board...........

[Bucky]

36. Most interesting paragraph in the Dean article came near the end. Here--

Most significant sentence is in bold.

It's common for liberals to complain that Bush talks about religion too much. But few Americans agree. Recent polling by Pew shows that only 14 percent think Bush talks about his faith too much. The vast majority, 62 percent, like the way he deploys religion, and 11 percent think he doesn't invoke it enough. This is one reason there's little hope of Dean riding a secular backlash into the White House, but it is not the only one. Although the number of Americans who attend church less than once per year is growing, it is still at 30 percent, a decided minority. According to the pollster John Zogby, "Appealing to secular voters might help you win a Democratic primary--but that's it." The University of Akron's John Green, the pollster who has looked the hardest at the electoral implications of religion, argues that voters "are looking for signs that they can trust a candidate. One of the things that they are looking for, one of the things that makes sense to them, is religiosity. If they don't see it, they may have a hard time voting for a candidate."

I'd like my Dean-supporting friends and fellow Democrats to keep that in mind when they give us the argument "How can candidate X beat George Bush in the general election when he can't even beat Howard Dean in the primaries?"

While this question strikes me as being aggressively disingenuous, the people who have written words like this in support of Dr. Dean seem to be quite sincere. Can Howard Dean win the nomination? Certainly--he's well on his way. Can he win the election in November? Almost certainly not.

I think he'd make a pretty good president, but I'm certain this country is doomed to never find that out.

[Raya]

41. I guess Trippi has found an answer to this. DEAN BORN AGAIN!

[AP]

42. They must have made a strategic decision:

One Dean weakness is that he has changed dramatically from the guy he was as governor on some VERY important issues. Rather than fight battles over those issues which are unwinnable, it's better to just change EVERYTHING. That way, it seems like people are nitpicking if they start bringing up all those changes. You can just say, "what, are you going to complain about everything?" rather than address any of the positions changed.

[foo_bar]

47. regarding the article itself

The Freep link above has a complete (-ly illegal) reproduction of the article. Basically it credits Carter with inaugurating "lust in my heart" politics, and every winning candidate since 1976 has seen the light. Since Dean's born-again story involves a land dispute, TNR thinks his "spiritual narrative" is more like Tip O'Neill than Clinton.

[in_cog_ni_to]

53. This is just another page from the "Mindless Wonders" playbook.

I've told this story before on DU. It bears repeating for this "special occasion" of Dean finding Jesus..:eyes: This was from an article I read in Newsweek (paper copy) a few months back. No link available or you may be able to go to Newsweek.com and pay to read it if it's in their archives.

When the mindless wonder was campaigning he had given a speech and in that speech he quoted some "commonly" used phrase from the Bible...for example..."Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged." After that particular speech KKKRove was besieged by phone calls from the RW Religious zealots who told him that THAT was how the mindless wonder could win the election! QUOTE THE BIBLE! SHOW PEOPLE YOU'RE RELIGIOUS! BE PUBLIC WITH IT! Hence, the Bob Jones University Speech.

It's all an act with the mindless wonder and it's all an act with Dean. I find it disgusting myself. I thought it was low when the mindless wonder did it and I think it's even lower for Dean to use religion like that. It's hypocritical. What a joke. It just goes to show you that Dean will do anything to win...even prostitute Jesus. IMCPO

[mouse7]

54. Dean's religious problem? He's a Sith Dark Lord.

Howard Dean turned to the dark side of the force. He draws his evil power from anger and strife. He will enslave us all.

Vote Clark! He's not a Sith Dark Lord like Dean.

[CWebster]

57. Has there been one aspect of existance

money, religion...sheer consciousness, that Dean hasn't been ripped across the coals for before 9AM?

Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean....the name on everybody's lips...LOL!