Flag Desecration. What the hell is that?

[NinetySix]

The elephant (so to speak) in the room regarding the whole idiotic issue is the fact that the flag would have to be defined, and what might constitute desecration would have to be defined.

Just how close an approximation of the United States' flag would you have to be desecrating before it could be considered against the law? What if I burned a flag with seven red stripes, six white, a blue field in the upper left corner, but just one big white star? Clearly, this is not the United States' flag, which has fifty stars. What if I burned a piece of cardboard with a stylized image of a flag blowing in the wind? The stripes on the U.S. flag are extended horizontal rectangles, not curved bands which intersect and overlap one another. Do U.S. flags have 13 stripes? They haven't always: when Vermont and Kentucky had entered the Union, the flag was changed to a 15-star flag (and later changed back). Do U.S. flags have 50 stars? Obviously, they haven't always.

And is desecration only the burning of the flag? What if one spits bottled water on the flag? Does no real damage mean no desecration? Isn't the whole focus of the issue on the intent of the desecrator? It seems that it must be, since U.S. Code prescribes burning to dispose of faded, soiled, or tattered flags. Surely those who burn flags, say, for the Government will not be subject to penalties under any such law or amendment. (Burn flags for the Government? But the flag over the Capitol Dome is replaced every day and given as a gift to some dignitary or citizen. Yeah sure, but what did you think happened to all those flags that fly over all those Federal Buildings in every state in the Union?) What if the desecration is more symbolic than physical -- say for instance someone projected a film of a guy taking a dump using the flag for a movie screen? Such an act would seem pretty offensive to me, but it does no physical damage to the flag itself; is it desecration?

I've seen the statistic floating around that something like four acts of flag burning have been documented this year. Imagine the waste of time and resources on the courts if these four acts were prosecuted. Now imagine what might have happened if a flag-desecration amendment had passed: since the single most efficient method of inciting people to burn the flag is to outlaw flag burning, the number of incidents would skyrocket. And if all of these were prosecuted in court, the lawyers for the defense would be asking the very questions I did above.


ed:changed subject line from "Flag Desecration. Flag? Desecration?"

Unless, of course, the terms "flag" and "desecration" are clearly and unambiguously defined. Have the Republicans not realized what a can of worms they'd be opening if they'd won? Either they'd have to undertake the colossal task of spelling out precisely what flag desecration is, only to see pseudo-flag desecrations that skirt the law yet express the same intent as actual flag desecration; or they'd see the courts bogged down considering pointless flag-desecration cases.

Guess they dodged a bullet this time.

[rep the dems]

1. Did you happen to see the video

of the one senator showing a picture of Kid Rock (who by the way sucks an incredible amount of ass) wearing an American flag with all sorts of rips in it and saying, "Is this not a desecration of the flag? In fact such a desecration that he was invited to play at the Republican National Convention!" or something like that. It was hilarious.

[kentuck]

2. Flag defecation ?

What kind of shit is that??

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

3. SO WHATS THE PENALTY, DEATH?

OR MAYBE JUST LIFE.

[AusGail]

4. Storm in a tea cup

There seems to be too much interest in the "desecration" of a piece of material and not enough (where the Republicans are concerned) on the total destruction and annihilation of another country and its population

[gasperc]

5. flag bathing suits are pretty insulting, especially speedos

I don't know why somebody can hang their bat and balls in an American flag speedo and not be smacked upside the head

[niyad]

6. did you see the pic of liddy in that flag thong? now THAT was

a desecration!!

[gasperc]

10. who??

[mode13h_net]

7. Flag desecration? not exactly an epidemic

I heard the same stats too, its certainly less than 10 or so cases every year. That's because its really really stupid imho ;) Of all the ways to protest, committing arson against a national symbol is the most juvenile. Which is likely the reason its so rare.

What is interesting is, I used to live in Ireland (The republic of), and any harm to the flag (physically) is unheard of, and at the same time there are penalties against it. So banning it doesn't always incite people to do it - but Ireland is probably a different case altogether. It's hard not to be proud of your nation when you reside there, where as people are far more frustrated here in america.

it's also a tricolor flag as opposed to a more complicated design like 50 stars and 13 stripes so i'm sure that also has to be taken into account when it comes to "defining the flag."

Please don't take this is a pro-flag desecration ban type post. I am personally against the idea of it (as are many u.s. senators i'm sure that voted against the ban) but even more against the ban itself.

[snowbear]

8. THIS is flag desecration.............

President Bush stops on the campaign trail in Missouri

[MADem]

9. I found this pretty hideous, too

This was the SUPERBOWL after Nine Wun Wun changed everything...the fans screamed as Bono sang, and the names of the dead scrolled on a giant screen. Made me a bit sick, frankly.



Hey, ya can always wear a vest:



Or drape it across your hapless dog:


Look like a total ass in these:


Or hang yourself with it:


Eat off it:


And then, wipe that grease off yer chin with it:


Keep it wedged up your ass:


Shove your smelly feet in 'em:


And last, but not least, light a fire with one--but don't light that flag on fire, now!

[gasperc]

11. great pics

so if I burn that fucking vest, did I descrate the flag or save it from desecration??

[Totally Committed]

12. One form of flage desecration is when the POTUS autographs one

for a supporter. As far as I know, writing on a flag is considered DEFACEMENT as much as burning it is.

TC

[onenote]

13. here's one likely set of definitions

From the flag protection act introduced from time to time:
`
(a) Definition of Flag of the United States- In this section, the term `flag of the United States' means any flag of the United States, or any part thereof, made of any substance, in any size, in a form that is commonly displayed as a flag and that would be taken to be a flag by the reasonable observer.

`(b) Actions Promoting Violence- Any person who destroys or damages a flag of the United States with the primary purpose and intent to incite or produce imminent violence or a breach of the peace, and under circumstances in which the person knows that it is reasonably likely to produce imminent violence or a breach of the peace, shall be fined not more than $100,000, imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

`(c) Flag Burning- Any person who shall intentionally threaten or intimidate any person or group of persons by burning, or causing to be burned, a flag of the United States shall be fined not more than $100,000, imprisoned for not more than 1 year, or both.

`(d) Damaging a Flag Belonging to the United States- Any person who steals or knowingly converts to his or her use, or to the use of another, a flag of the United States belonging to the United States, and who intentionally destroys or damages that flag , shall be fined not more than $250,000, imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

`(e) Damaging a Flag of Another on Federal Land- Any person who, within any lands reserved for the use of the United States, or under the exclusive or concurrent jurisdiction of the United States, steals or knowingly converts to his or her use, or to the use of another, a flag of the United States belonging to another person, and who intentionally destroys or damages that flag , shall be fined not more than $250,000, imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

[NinetySix]

14. That's an interesting set of criteria for flag desecration.

I hadn't seen that before; thanks for posting it. Still, it seems insufficient to establish exactly what the flag is or what desecration is, doesn't it?

(a) Definition of Flag of the United States- In this section, the term `flag of the United States' means any flag of the United States, or any part thereof, made of any substance, in any size, in a form that is commonly displayed as a flag and that would be taken to be a flag by the reasonable observer.

This still doesn't define what the flag is. What if I stitch together a flag of my own with 52 stars or 11 stripes and then proceed to burn it? My intent is clear, but have I broken the law? To those who observe the event, it will clearly appear that I am desecrating a banner with some stars and stripes, but you know how those lawyer types are: they'll very scrupulously count those stars or stripes for the benefit of the court to show that I was not burning the Stars and Stripes.

As for the rest of the provisions:

Any person who destroys or damages a flag of the United States with the primary purpose and intent to incite or produce imminent violence or a breach of the peace....

Any person who shall intentionally threaten or intimidate any person or group of persons by burning, or causing to be burned, a flag of the United States....

Any person who steals or knowingly converts to his or her use, or to the use of another, a flag of the United States belonging to the United States, and who intentionally destroys or damages that flag....

Any person who ... steals or knowingly converts to his or her use ... a flag of the United States belonging to another person, and who intentionally destroys or damages that flag...

these look like some really bizarre and unlikely circumstances to me, not consistent with the type of protest we're accustomed to seeing. Typically, it's a small group who publicly light the fringes of the flag with Bic lighters (often not very successfully -- hey, there's an idea: flameproof flags, no amendment necessary!) as a patent attempt to create controversy, but who very rarely cause any sort of violent confrontation. Which of these provisions covers the art exhibit with the United States flag smeared with elephant dung? Perhaps by statute that isn't really desecration.

My only point is that it looks like these are not only spurious charges aimed at intimidating dissenters, but also appear to be remarkably easy to beat in a court of law -- that is, assuming your case comes to court relatively quickly behind a massive docket of similar cases. What an efficient use of our courts.

*****

As an aside, to those who say that burning a flag amounts to nothing more than burning a piece of cloth, I respond that, according to that logic, those who burn books are merely burning bound stacks of paper. Either of these is a powerful symbolic act and should not be lightly dismissed. I would be highly disinclined under normal circumstances to burn a flag myself or to observe others burning a flag without trying my best to dissuade them. In case flag burning were to become an offense, however, I would certainly be more inclined to burn a flag in protest, since it is my opinion that such legislation would represent the first salvo in the curtailment of our hard-won liberties, an unacceptable situation.

[TLM]

15. I went to a 4th of july party....

They had table candles that were painted like american flags.

made in china of course...


So is burning a US flag candle considered burning the flag?

What about the american flag napkins... is it desecration to wipe BBQ sauce off my face with the flag?

TLM

[NinetySix]

18. And what IS the proper, respectful way to dispose of a flag napkin?

Wad it up and shoot from 3-point range?

[bklyncowgirl]

16. Politicians wrapping themselves in the flag pretty much does it for me. nt

[many a good man]

17. Calling it "desecration" violates the 1st Commandment !!!

Desecration means to violate the sacredness of.

Sacred adj.
1. Dedicated to or set apart for the worship of a deity.
2. Worthy of religious veneration: the sacred teachings of the Buddha.
3. Made or declared holy: sacred bread and wine.

Calling the flag sacred means putting it above the Lord and worshipping an idol. Doesn't sound like a very Christian thing!