Whew! The KOS/New Republic Dust-up Is One For The Ages!

[wyldwolf]

Analysis here:

http://newdonkey.blogspot.com/2006/06/inconvenient-truth.html

Latest TNR response here:

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=w060619&s=chait062206

[redqueen]

1. One issue with Gore...

despite his concern about environmentalism, he has at least one nasty skeleton in his closet on that issue.


edit: apologies for the strongly-worded original... I went off half-cocked. Sorry, but I want Feingold! I felt very betrayed by the Clinton/Gore administration with respect to environmental proteciton, so... sorry again for those thoughts of betrayal unduly influencing the wording of the orinal version of this post. mea culpa

[The Magistrate]

2. Specifics Might Be Useful, Maa'am

[Jim Sagle]

Did anyone ever tell you you'e TOO deliberative?

[The Magistrate]

23. They Have, My Friend

Not that it has ever helped.

[redqueen]

20. I'm responding to your post since it was first.

:)

It seems the only *real* dirt that can be stuck on him is the Champion International/Pigeon River issue... the rest seems pretty flimsy by comparison.

I should re-word my post. Ugh... I hate when I do stuff like that. :(

[The Magistrate]

26. A Very Fair Edit, Ma'am

Very big of you to do that.

[redqueen]

32. Not really... only reasonable.

I have a hot temper... I'm good at cleaning up my messes... as I seem to make them a little too often. :blush:

[NewJeffCT]

4. I could swear...

that he was pretty pro-environment in his failed attempt to run for president in 1988? However, all his issues - like the environment - were put on the backburner while Clinton was president.

But - I do know his family has some investments in oil companies in the past.

[IndyOp]

6. The Gore's main source of $$$ was tobacco. They quit when Al's

sister died young of lung cancer. Oil? Specifics then and now?

[NewJeffCT]

11. Gore's Oil Money

Back in 2000, Nader used the Gore family investments in oil to claim he was no different than Bush.

From The Nation:

Traditionally a Republican firm, Occidental was linked to the Democrats for many years primarily through Gore's father, Senator Al Gore Sr. The elder Gore was such a loyal political ally that Occidental's founder and longtime CEO, Armand Hammer, liked to say that he had Gore "in my back pocket." When Gore Sr. left the Senate in 1970, Hammer gave him a $500,000-a-year job at an Occidental subsidiary and a seat on the company's board of directors. At the time of his death in 1998, Gore the elder's estate included hundreds of thousands of dollars' worth of Occidental stock. The Vice President is the executor of the estate, which still includes the stock and whose chief beneficiary is his mother.

But Occidental's funneling of money to the Gore family doesn't end there. In the sixties, the Gores discovered zinc ore near land they owned in Tennessee. Through a company subsidiary Hammer bought the land for $160,000--twice the amount offered by the only other bidder. He swiftly sold the land back to Al Gore Sr. and agreed to pay him $20,000 a year for mining rights. After receiving his first payment, Gore Sr. sold the land for $140,000 to Gore Jr., who has received a $20,000 check nearly every year since he acquired it. Strangest of all, Occidental has never actually mined the land. Al Jr.'s coffers swelled further in 1985 when he began leasing the land to Union Zinc, an Occidental competitor. (For a full account of the Gore-Occidental relationship, see The Buying of the President 2000 by Charles Lewis and the Center for Public Integrity.)

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20000522/silverstein

[IndyOp]

18. Major Ick. Not a deal-breaker for me, though. (n/t)

[NewJeffCT]

38. Me either

If somebody put a gun to my head about who I would support for 2008, it would probably be Al Gore.

[redqueen]

39. All I need to know is "Democratic nominee"

but I want Feeeeingooooold! *whines*

[redqueen]

8. Is that what it was?

Sad, but (even more sadly) I suppose it's understandable... politics is an ugly business, isn't it? :(


To everyone asking for specifics... give me a moment to look for them.

I was unaware of it until the dirt started flying after his film came out. *sigh*

[IndyOp]

5. What skeletons? With specifics and links if you've got 'em? Curious. n/t

[station agent]

7. He's been an environmental activist for over thirty years

What are you talking about?

[NYCGirl]

9. "Johnny-come-lately concern"? You do realize this book was published in

1992:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0452269350/sr=8-1/qid=1151086281/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-4763989-5681634?%5Fencoding=UTF8

[redqueen]

24. Yes, after the Champion International incident. n/t

[JNelson6563]

10. Here's a clue then for ya

Gore has been giving great speeches for years now on just about every aspect of this horrid misAdministration. While many others who would be our "leadership" have waffled, hemmed and hawed or outright appeased the neo-cons, there was Gore, telling it like it is.

Now he comes out with his movie on a topic he has long been an advocate for (of course anyone who has been in a cave the last decade might buy your "johnny-come-lately" fiction) and suddenly many more people are re-noticing him. In fact he is drawing so much notice and positive attention I have witnessed a huge surge in attempts to smear him by all sorts of "Dems", mostly those who already have a horse in the 08 race.

As to this "dust up" being one "for the ages" as the OP states, *yawn* yeah, whatever.

Julie

[wyldwolf]

19. *yawn* yeah...

In the tradition of internet battle royales between key players, this one is quite fierce and entertaining at the same time.

I wouldn't expect you to agree. Afterall, If I said Friday, you'd insist it was Saturday.

[JNelson6563]

25. Not necessarily

I'm all about identifying facts as facts, no matter the source. I think this particular "dust-up" is a bit complicated and and involved to be for "the ages". TNR sucks 90% of the time and Marcos seems a bit confused at times.

I guess I don't view either of the players here as the titan-like contenders others may.

Julie

[Pirate Smile]

13. Johnny-come-lately? Are you serious?

[BlueManDude]

3. I stopped reading TNR 15 years ago. n/t

[redqueen]

33. I stopped more recently... but yeah...

I stopped, too. My sis still reads them I think, and up until somewhat recently (last year? geez i'm old)... she would tell me if there was anything worth checking out.

[BlueManDude]

43. The Bell Curve crap, their attack on Clinton's health care proposal

written by a hack GOP NY pol, Andrew Sullivan etc etc. If I wanted right wingery I'd just subscribe to the National Review.

[redqueen]

44. Exactly... it's not like it's stealthy or hidden at all, is it? n/t

[madfloridian]

12. TNR is now making a hard right.

Do a search and figure it out for yourself.

There is no excuse for their going after a blogger except that he had a success at Yearly Kos.

Their subscriptions I hear are down. The American Prospect is attacking Kos, DU is attacking Kos.

Everyone is attacking Kos, and that is letting the GOP win again.

[wyldwolf]

15. And KOS plays nice?

:eyes:

[madfloridian]

17. Apparently you do not know what is going on.

I give up. Have it your way. No, Kos does not play nice, but aren't you just a wee bit suspicious at the attacks on the bloggers since Yearly Kos?

I am.

[wyldwolf]

21. obviously I do. The articles in the OP contain a chronology.

[madfloridian]

27. You failed to say Kos got corrections from the NYT and Slate. Suellentrop.

In fact they are smearing Jerome and Kos, and you are helping them. You failed to point out a lot.

"The YearlyKos media people have already forced corrections at Slate and NY Times (Suellentrop's blog). There has been some serious overreach by the few outlets that picked up this story (which as I mentioned before has been shopped around). It was interesting how this one piddly-ass story was used to try and smear Jerome, me, AND YearlyKos.

So the only paper to run this as a news story is the disgraceful NY Post. Others who picked up on it have had to backtrack from their original sensationalistic claims.

I am exploring legal options against some of the wingnut bloggers who are claiming I'm syphoning netroots money into consultants and my own pockets. Note how Glenn Reynolds is fueling it with his typical passive aggressive, "I don't think it's a big deal, but let me provide links to everyone who thinks this is THE BIGGEST STORY EVER!"

Read that and think about what you are doing to another Democrat.

[wyldwolf]

29. All I gave was links. I failed to say KOS took a piss this morning, too.

What else did I fail to mention? Pretty much everything in every article and blogpost written on the topic.

Next?

[AngryAmish]

31. Wait, KOS took a piss?

Why wasn't I informed?

[NYCGirl]

34. That's what you get for missing meetings.

:evilgrin:

[OzarkDem]

52. Too much testosterone

in the progressive blogosphere and news media.

[PATRICK]

14. Hang together or hang separately

We can't even purge the party of failed campaign strategists so these debates are more like powerless ghetto dwellers shooting each other with the remnants of gang pride. Happens everywhere. (Even here?) TNR will rise or fall on its own merits and I should think their prominence symbolically rode along with Kelly when he died in the first wave of the Iraq invasion. But there is nothing online quite like the personal exchanges. In letters in the old days at least a little time was needed which cooled down (eventually) the easy non-physical flame wars. A little to fast and furious in the even less physical blogosphere. If you can't imagine the two coming to fisticuffs in the street judging by their real life appearances you have to wonder or be amused at their ventilating in virtual realms. Maybe they should go to "Everquest" and settle it there.

These things, fortunately or not, are more of interest for entertainment than in resolving issues. More fur flies between likes and relatives than between polar opposites and foes. Nothing so bitter as a civil war. The war we want and need is the one against the RW ruination of the world. Can someone keep that post that prominently on their desktop? And save the personal grievances for the next life whether there is one or not?

[madfloridian]

16. I don't like ad hominem attacks by Bull Moose and Al From either.

But TNR and TAP are suddenly going after Kos, and I find it strange that so many Democrats are going along with it so freely.

[wyldwolf]

22. Is reporting it, discussing it. "going along with it?"

Maybe we should shut up like KOS suggested.

[madfloridian]

28. You are going along with attacking bloggers.

You are trying to make a case where none is.

That is what I was talking about in my thread before. About the groups who don't want our party to succeed as Democrats, and I wonder if they are wolves in sheep's clothing.

Markos is not a winning personality, but he gets a lot done with that blog. He is working in various ways, some I like, some I don't. But I know enough not to portray and go along with the right wing image and attacks on him.

[wyldwolf]

30. Like I said above, all I gave was links. Unless drawing attention to...

...the event is an "attack."

[iconoclastNYC]

35. There is that term again "New Democrats."

Ever wonder why Goldwater conservatives, aiming to set themselves apart from moderate Republicans didn't call themselves : "New Republicans"..... Because it denigrates the party. And that's why the "New Democrats" choose that term. To denigrate our party. Because they are tools of corporate America. Thier aim isn't to make our party successful. It's to move the party to the right so that the corporate agenda will lose any and all opposition.

"I think one of the ways that corporate America got smarter was that they began to understand that there was value to them in infiltrating the Democratic Party. They realized that owning the Republican Party was not enough, and that grabbing a chunk of the Democratic Party -- even a small chunk -- would allow the system as a whole to radically shift to the right far more quickly than if they just pursued a binary strategy with one party. We used to have one big business party and now we have one and a third -- or one and a quarter -- and that quarter is really integral to what's allowed the hostile takeover to move towards completion -- or at least to intensify." --- http://www.alternet.org/story/36560

[Robbien]

37. So true

The corporate shills own the leadership of both parties. The RNC part tries to build up a majority while the DLC part tries to tear down the opposition.

[redqueen]

45. Wonderful post!

:applause:

[madfloridian]

36. May I let Booman clarify it a little? Good post with righteous anger.

This is about "outing" people on the internet, those who are unable to defend themselves. I hope you guys will let the page load completely and read it.

http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2006/6/22/213540/017
TNR: Zengerle is Scum

"Provided that Jerome was quoted accurately and that Boyd had his facts right, it was immediately apparent that Jerome was contrained by the deal from defending himself. While it was obvious that the charges were unseemly, it was also obvious that Jerome was being attacked by a Murdoch outlet and he couldn't say much in his defense. It was also obvious that the reason for raising these allegations now was to use them to attack Markos after his wildly successful convention in Las Vegas and his appearance on Meet the Press."

Read it and think about what we are doing to each other.

Something is up with the TNR, Slate, and TAP, and I don't know what is for sure yet.

[Adelante]

40. Heh - got this part right

"if Gore does run it looks like he'll have the most incongruous set of supporters since Mo Udall and George Wallace both endorsed Jimmy Carter in 1976."

:D

[Pirate Smile]

46. That is part of the appeal of a Gore run in 2008.

[fujiyama]

41. I read the first article

and while it mentions that both Kos and Peretz are fans of Gore, it fails to mention WHY Peretz likes Gore. In Peretz' case, it's merely about their long personal friendship. Peretz is still very much a neocon, Lieberman type of "democrat". He'd be much more comfortable around the likes of neocons like Pearle and Wolf, than say liberals like Boxer or Feingold.

Also recall Perezt's visceral dislike for John Kerry during the election. He had some nasty things to say about him during the campaign.

In short fuck Peretz. He's taken the TNR from a moderate left of center magazine, to another mouthpiece for the neconservative agenda. The magazine spends about 60% of the time pushing a neocon agenda, 30% bashing the left in general, and only maybe 10% actually making good arguments for progressive causes. It's too bad, because when they do, they do a good job actually. They have a few skilled writers and journalists left, but their talents are mostly wasted and their voices are mostly lost.

I'm not a big fan of Kos (he seems to have developed one hell of an ego-that's for sure), but from what I can tell, he sincerely wants MEANINGFUL changes in policy. He also haad the foresight to oppose the war from the begining, which is more than I can say for the TNR editorial staff.

[madfloridian]

42. Nice post.

I suspect more than just TNR of heading right, and I think we need to be watching carefully. Sites that have traditionally been skewed progressive are changing in odd ways.

[jonnyblitz]

47. Andrew Sullivan was the editor from 1991 until 1996.

that should tell one something. :eyes:

[Joe Bacon]

48. Don't forget Steven Glass!

Sullivan and that other liar, Michael Kelly, egged Glass on.

Once upon a time The New Republic had principles and an editor (Henry Wallace) not for sale to anybody for anything at any price. Singlehandedly, Wallace stood up to Joe Mc Carthy, even when The Nation buckled under.

Sadly, those days are long gone. The New Republic has mutated into the NEW REPUBLICAN thanks to right wing hacks like Sullivan, Kelly, and Glass.

[fujiyama]

49. Thanks for the historical note - good reminder

I should have remembered that. The TNR progressive era was over long before Peretz.

[madfloridian]

50. Ah, Glenn Greenwald compares Zengerle to Glass in a great diary.

Greenwald has the book that is selling so well, "How Would a Patriot Act".

I much respect his writing, and he offers this blog about what is going on here with these publications.

http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2006/06/does-new-republic-have-new-stephen_23.html

Does The New Republic have a new Stephen Glass in Jason Zengerle?

"Over the last few days, Jason Zengerle of The New Republic has been engaged in a bizarre crusade to depict "liberal bloggers" as a bunch of mindless, obedient zombies who take orders about what to write from Markos Moulitsas, all in order to ensure that they can continue to enjoy the great financial wealth lavished upon them by virtue of their participation in the "Advertise Liberally" network, which Markos founded but does not operate. To prove this "point," Zengerle published what he purported to be various e-mails regarding recent accusations against Jerome Armstrong, which Zengerle claimed were sent to the "Townhouse" Google group -- comprised of 300 or so journalists, political operatives, bloggers, advocacy organizations, and others designed to facilitate communication between these usually isolated groups. To the extent the "substance" of Zengerle's accusations are worth responding to, Ezra Klein and Max Sawicky (among many) have done so quite thoroughly, respectively here and here.

But in spinning his laughable conspiracy, Zengerle published -- based on what Zengerle said was "three sources" -- what appears to be a completely fabricated e-mail, which Zengerle falsely claimed was sent to the "Townhouse" list by blogger Steve Gilliard"

This whole thing is very suspicious, coming right after the success of the Yearly Kos.

Anytime a Democrat stands up and speaks out, they attack them mercilessly. I fear we help them by carrying the whole thing on here without understanding it.

[Joe Bacon]

51. Add Zengerle to the long list of liars for the New REPUBLICAN

and take a look at all those neocons who write for it, the same neocons incubated by Social Democrats, USA!

[Douglas Carpenter]

53. interesting

SDUSA if I remember correctly was founded by ex-Trotskyist Max Schactman and were part of the same core of Henry Jackson/Jeanne Kilpatrick groupies that Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz were part of.

I'm not suggesting conspiracy; just birds of a feather.

[Joe Bacon]

54. You got it!

Precisely. Just Google"Social Democrats USA" and see all the Neocons! It's the Roach Motel of American politics!