Why we think you're bigots

[inthebrain]

(For clarification; This is not directed at everybody)

Much ado is being made on threads about illegal immigration regarding the "race card" and "race baiting". I find that the only people who cry the "race card" and "race baiting" are those that happen know their own bigotry. I have never been wrong on this issue.

Here's why we think you're bigots; EVERY SINGLE PROBLEM IN AMERICA HAS BEEN LAIN ON THE FEET OF IMMIGRANTS!!!!! There's a simple word for it, it's called "SCAPEGOATING"!!!! Those that are moderately adequate in their analyical skills have been able to pick out their flawed cause and effect arguments.

Here's how it works;

Lack of jobs = Illegal Immigrants are stealing them

Declining wages = Illegal Immigrants will work for less

Shrinking middle class = Illegal Immigrants are taking middle class jobs

Poor schools = Illegal Immigrants are flooding the school districts

No money for teachers = Illegal Immigrants are coming here, working and not paying taxes.

Decline of Union Power = Yup, you guessed it !!!! The influx of illegals!!!!!

These are just a few examples of it that I have gleaned from the board. Every single one of them I have knocked down with FACTS!!!!!! Every single one of these issues have roots in other causes and the least of them being the influx of 12 million undocumented workers. There are roughly three hundred million people living in this country. Common sense and logic would dictate that it's impossible for for 12 million to reek so much havock on the system.

This form of bigotry where one group of people are to blame for all the nations problems is nothing new to this country. Neither are the defenses of the bigots. To keep it short; We've all read about this in history or have seen it before.

Here lies the kicker. Not everyone who is making these arguments is a bigot. Many of them have been sold a lemon and haven't realized it yet. It's pretty easy to tell the shaphard from the flock on this issue.

The causes for many of these problems that I have listed have already been stated a million times over on this board. Many of us have analyzed the crap out of them and know the score. Here's a breif list of the causes

1) Right to work laws

2) Taft Hartly

3) NAFTA

4) CAFTA

5) Increased Military spending

6) Welfare Reform

7) Tax Cuts

8) Rising Housing Costs

9) Rising gas prices

10) WTO

11) Media

12) Corporate ownership of the political system

13) Iraq war

All of these are the causes of job loss, wage reduction, lousy schools and a shrinking middle class (Who I like to refer to as the buffer between the rich and the poor). America has always been a nation of immigration. The simple fact is that when union membership is high wages are raised. I would say that the Union Leadership who are advocating full citizen rights to the twelve million illegal in this country have their finger on the button (No that is not in agreement with Bush's temp status which leads to more exploitation). A lot more than those harping to kick them out so they can be subjected to continued exploitation by American corporations across the border.

My advice is that those that are really concerned about labor in this country that they really pay attention to what's happening here. There is a lot of bigotry flyin all over this board by some regarding this issue. Our greatest test is to keep our fingers on the button regarding many of these issues and to not allow these people to distract us.

It appears a few of them have their own agenda in mind.

[savemefromdumbya]

1. Hitler blamed Jews

same sort of thing!

[Andromeda]

6. There's a big difference

between what Hitler did and the crisis caused by illegal immigration. Hitler systematically conspired to eliminate all Jews from the face of the earth.

All the American people want is secure borders, not the extermination of all illegal immigrants.

[LostInAnomie]

12. See, there you go letting logic get in the way of perfectly good hyperbole

Can't you see they need to throw around their daily quota of "bigots" "racists" and "xenophobes".

After all, big business needs their support.

[Tigress DEM]

15. People who support a rational solution to the immigration problem

aren't necessarily supporting big business. Big business is exploiting the immigrants who come here illegally.

Talking about the problem without going nuts about sealing up the border isn't too much to ask.

Realizing that this is an issue bushco WANTS us to fight about (instead of looking at the nasty things they are still doing to the country behind our backs, like having the Supreme Court take away the rights of government whistleblowers, so we have less and less access to the truth...) MAKES ME less inclined to make it a bigger issue than it needs to be.

By REFUSING to make the immigrants the "THEM" of the week that buscho wants me to be afraid of, I can keep myself focused on the work of getting these corrupt bozos out of office.

They have no intention of resolving the immigration problem, or any other problem that really affects Americans.

This is the administration that took away 19 Million dollars from water treatment plants, told them to just dump raw sewage more often to compensate and now is planting stories about how home owners with septic tanks are causing pollution in lakes and rivers.

There were half a million people in DC on 9/24/05 protesting the war in Iraq... we got zilch for coverage... a St Bernard that swallowed a carving knife got more coverage than we did.

2 million people were in DC in October 05 and they got an occassional 2 minute spot here and there on that day.

The immigration protests were covered ad nauseum by every network including Faux.... if that doesn't tell you that this is the administration's dog and pony show... I don't know what to say.

We need to not fight with each other over these things.

I don't know if I agree with the entire OP either, but I know I am more concerned about the plague in the White House than the immigrants.

[Solon]

20. I couldn't have said it better myself...

I don't view it as so much being a bigot as being hysterical, completely irrational, and monochromatic in thinking. I could think of other adjectives, but I won't, children may read this post. ;) However, you do bring up a good point, this issue is like 10% a real problem, 90% a distraction, the problem is that as soon as someone says "seal the border" I know, right off, that it would be impossible to have some type of rational discussion with them. Almost as bad as discussing Gay Marriage with a Christian Fundamentalist.

[inthebrain]

52. It is a real problem

given the approach you take. What I see regarding the scapegoating is racism (Racism is based on fear.) and much that harkens back the the Red Scare.

There are those of us that see it as an issue of exploitation and want to stamp out the exploitation where it exists. Then there are those that use exploitation as a straw dog and apply scapegoating to it w/o ever dealing with the exploitation. Sealing off the border is not going to put an end to the exploitation.

Bush's Temp Visas are just as much an avenue to exploitation as are those that scream to seal the border. There are plenty of American corporations who use a sealed border to their avantage exploiting everyone on both sides.

The solutions in the public forum (Temp status VS sealed borders) are both avenues to exploitation. Then there is the problem in any solution where we have the fox guarding the hen house.

[Tigress DEM]

68. Appealing to THIS administration for any JUST solution is useless.

I'm sure there are ways to secure the border and to logically bring people here to work, send people back who have crossed illegally and fine the companies that exploit workers. There was some good debate and ideas going on about it in the Senate, but it isn't a REAL goal of the administration to find a solution that works.

It is a real problem and it does push fear buttons, but the priority on pushing legislation through now has to be low because we have rethugs who go and change things late at night after everyone has voted on it.

That's how we got a rider in NAFTA that says Nicaraguans can no longer buy generic drugs... they have to buy full price drugs.. on wages of what .03 and hour or something? Our own elderly here can't afford full price prescription drugs.

[Tigress DEM]

66. "To seal the border" involves things that look like concentration camps...

built by Haliburton...

One of the first pieces of legislation I fought against after reading it on DU was a bill that was using the border issue to give the Secretary of Homeland Security carte blanche authority to suspend any law in the interest of building potential detainee facilities on the border. It was so loosley worded there was no proviso for ANYONE to be able to get the power back from the Sec of Homeland Security once it was determined to be needed.

Martial law anyone?

First the immigrants, then the dissidents, then who?

If any among us are oppressed, then none of us are truly free.

[lumberjack_jeff]

31. It's not a dog and pony show because they want us to argue about it

The corporatists (especially the media) want us to acquiesce to it.

[Erika]

2. China now has a booming middle class according to CNN

They have suburbs and million dollar homes for sale to the new middle class of China. The Chinese are a little unhappy with commute times.

And China now owns much of our debt.

Good job W. You eliminated our middle class while building theirs.

[NorCalDem]

8. Sweet!

It's only a matter of time before they become crazy Uber-Capitalist and destroy their country, just like we're doing. Maybe we can stay #1 forever :shrug:

[BrklynLiberal]

3. HEY! You wouldn't want anyone to TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for anything

would you!!!???
It is just so much easier to blame someone else...

x( x( x( x( x( x( x(

[benburch]

4. Thanks for posting that.

Excellent.

[inthebrain]

5. Thank you

For your posts on this issue.

THere are many of us that share this view in the democratic party. It's long past time we all started raising our voices on this issue to call a spade a spade.

Personally I'm getting sick and tired of it. It is our duty as Democrats to stand against these people!!!!

[Andromeda]

7. Nothing you have said makes any sense at all.

You've twisted and mangled legitimate concerns people have for their future, their jobs, their healthcare and their security.

Calling people names is not going to win people over to your side. Your distorted logic has no merit whatsoever and you are the one who has the agenda here, not the majority of people who want to see a viable solution to a serious problem.

[benburch]

9. Wow.

Same talking points each and every one of them uses.

[LostInAnomie]

11. What do you mean by "them"?

Let me guess, by "them" you mean all those stupid bigoted xenophobes who are concerned about the working class, and secure borders. How pathetic.

I wish we could all be so enlightened that we could see the brilliance of your unchecked immigration policy where there is no such thing as a border that you were championing in another thread. :sarcasm:

[benburch]

45. What I hear when you write.

"Quack! Quack! Quack! Quack! Quack! Quack! Quack! Quack! Quack! Quack! Quack! Quack! Quack!"

Same talking points I hear from the All-White Militias and the Minutemen.

[inthebrain]

38. Yup

Same scapegoating I've outlined in the OP.

Our future is better served by creating an economic egalitarian society. Solidarity amongst labor is a must and in todays globalized world it cannot be overlooked. Exploitation here or on the other side of the border effects us all.

The issue is exploitation, and by having an immigration system that panders to wealthy immigrants, we are only continuing the exploitation. Immigration is expensive in this country and unless those laws change there will be plenty of poor people hopping over the border seeking labor here. Their status as illegals is whats making it so easy for corporations to exploit.

The AFL-CIO's (as well as those unions that have split)position on this subject is that immigrants be entitiled to rights as citizens. This way they have rights to unionize and collective bargaining.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Usrename]

16. Some people think that we are all in this fight together.

Others think that they have some birthright that gives them a different status. That view is exclusive, or bigoted. For clarity, I would define a bigot as someone who is intolerant of the differences of others, a racist as someone who thinks one race is inferior or superior to another, and a xenophobe as someone who fears others who are different.

I think the xenophobia thing is something we are born with, a natural artifact of evolution. Harmless in and of itself. But when this fear is preyed upon to oppress or inflame people, it is dangerous. It was a well-documented tactic of Hitler's.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

18. Very well said.

[Solon]

19. Not the OP, but an answer nonetheless....

I could give an example of the hysteria, of you will, about Illegal Immigration, here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1168608#1168785

Now, this particular poster seems to be under the assumption that Illegal Immigration drives down wages here, I actually agree with that, to a point. Its not Illegal Immigration ALONE that leads to wage supression, its having a large labor pool, and its getting larger by the day because of a COMBINATION of factors, Illegal Immigration is but one part of it, about 10% or so, if figures are to be believed. Other factors that have an even LARGER effect are outsourcing, which causes unemployment, and state laws for "at will" employment and anti-union laws, which basically means you can get fired for looking at the boss cross eyed.

As for the rest, does hysteria and paranoia come to mind? Why yes it does, seriously, Illegal Immigration is NOT to blame for our deficit, that blame can be squarely placed on the Bush Administration in the overly expensive war in Iraq, and also on an over inflated Pentagon budget that is more than 10 times more expensive than almost ALL social programs combined. Also, I hate when people mention that both Medicare and Social Security are going to be bankrupt, apparently because of Illegal Immigration. First, as far as I'm aware of, Social Security is secure till at least 2041, and will last a HELL of a lot longer if we upped the FICA cap. Same for Medicare, which, for all its faults, is a quite effecient little program for medical care.

Problem is, he isn't alone in this, many others display such hysteria, and ONLY display it on this one issue, which is disheartening when they are reasonable elsewhere, but everyone has a "button issue" of one sort or another where they go off the wall, as it were. Problem is they seem to become monochromatic, all or nothing types, who accomplish nothing but inflammatory rhetoric. Hell another poster had no problem Generalizing Mexicans by proclaiming that ALL of them vote Republican!

Now, onto your questions, and my answers, here we go:

Why don't you explain to us why we shouldn't control our border?

First, as far as the OP is concerned, I didn't see him advocate a LACK of control for the borders, so this could be considered a strawman unless you can substantuate that claim yourself regarding the OP, otherwise refer to my last paragraph above, especially the "all or nothing" part of it. All I can see him advocating is a possible path for full citizenship for those ALREADY here, and to stop scapegoating poor people period. Now, I'm no advocate for the first position, but fully support the second one.

As far as my answer to this, what do you mean by securing the border? If it involves building a wall or fence, then I would disagree, it would be atrociously expensive and impractical anyways, so forget that. If you are talking about more border patrol agents, that type of thing, that I can get behind.

Why should we continue to allow illegal immigration to go unchecked?

Stawman, nuff said.

Why do you support the exploitation of illegal immigrants by greedy employers?

Uh, first the OP mentioned Unionization of said workers, the best way, that we know of, to prevent exploitation. Can we say stawman yet again? Why YES we can!

As far as my own answer, let's see, I pissed into the wind here and thought of a solution here. Oddly enough, I notice that those who bitch the loudest about Illegal Immigration think that "securing the border" or "deporting them all" will guarantee jobs stay here or that wages will rise, when that is far from the truth. We have had the median wage decrease by about 10% over the past 35 years or so, and Illegal Immigration has only had any dramatic uptick since NAFTA was signed. It was always there, but not nearly as bad as now, the question is, what is the cause, and what can ALL of us do about it, because it is a problem that involves people on both sides of the border.

Why should it be up to us to absorb the costs of Mexico's shitty economy?

Uh, NAFTA, just a guess, I mean, I could be wrong, but don't we share the exact same economy as Mexico? Why yes we do!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAFTA

Now, onto my conclusion, if you can call it that, the OP was ONLY talking about addressing the issue as ANY OTHER ISSUE, as COMPLICATED, not simple, and that this scapegoating, and yes there has been scapegoating, has to stop. This does NOT mean he advocates for anything beyond what he himself has said, you inserted your own agenda into his dialog with your loaded questions.

[Lasher]

23. Tax Cuts are the Major Cause of Current Deficit

Salon,

You are correct to say that the blame for our current deficits can be squarely placed on the Bush Administration. Our excessive overall defense spending, which includes Bush's war in Iraq, is one cause of these shortfalls, but by far the main reason for our deficits is Bush's tax cuts which have primarily benefited the wealthiest Americans.

The 2004 deficit was 4.2% of GDP, 2.6% of which was caused by the tax cuts. 2004 spending was 20% of GDP, compared to an average of 21.1% since 1980. 2004 revenue was 15.8% compared to an average of 18.5%.



Next time someone tells you we need to 'reform' Social Security (and our other social programs) because we can't afford it, remember that the money we needed for that was stolen from the poor and given to the rich.

http://www.cbpp.org/4-14-04tax-sum.htm

[Lerkfish]

24. here's the difference on border control:

Here's two vastly different reasons to control the border:

1. to make us more secure against potential terrorism by at least examining cargo holds, etc.

2. to keep wetbacks from Mexico coming over, stealing our jobs, ruining our economy, raping our women, breeding like rabbits....

guess which one is xenophobic and racist?

The proof that concerns about "mexicans" is racist is that mexicans are not the only sort of illegal alien coming to this country, nor is the mexican border the only point of access. I find it passing odd that we aren't concerned about candadians coming across our nothern border, nor europeans that fly in to take our jobs. As long as they're white, its ok.

[LostInAnomie]

28. Really, when have you ever heard anyone say...

... "As long as they're white, it's ok."? My guess would be never.

The reason for the focus on Mexico is because 85% of illegal immigration comes across the Mexican border. If 300,000 Canadians were coming across the border a year to stay the focus would be on them.

[lumberjack_jeff]

34. Immigration from all sources is a concern.

H-1b visas have eroded our middle class wages and our ability to train technical skills in the same way that illegal immigration has harmed the wages for our poor.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

54. Wow, defining moral behavior based on race...

Just...wow.

Your post makes me sick. There are people genuinely concerned about workers rights. You trump all that with "Mexicans lie to get jobs, not like White Canadians". What a bunch of bullshit.

[lumberjack_jeff]

32. Good point

Immigrants are legally obliged to go through the proper channels. It's incumbent on those who support the non-enforcement of our laws to explain why amnesty is in our interests.

[inthebrain]

41. Lets see.......

1)Here's an idea, instead of crying about all the bigots on DU, why don't you explain to us why we shouldn't control our border?
So your saying that I should tolerate bigots. Read response #36 to this thread and tell me you agree with it.


2)Why should we continue to allow illegal immigration to go unchecked?
Why should citizen status determine whether one deserves protection to a union?

3)Why do you support the exploitation of illegal immigrants by greedy employers?
I don't. This is a straw man response and I'm not going to waste anymore time on it

4) Why should it be up to us to absorb the costs of Mexico's shitty economy?

The exploitation of labor in anyones economy effects us all at home. We absorb the cost no matter what. Either way much has been done by our government and corporations here at home. The examples I pointed out above are at fault. We have gone over them time and time again.

I am not going to play broken record knocking down everyone of these claims. I have posted numerous facts relating to this issue time and time again. It's a simple matter of putting together a cogent cause and effect argument which those that blame everything on immigrants have not done.

It's really that simple. What I have posted on this issue isn't all that radical. Those that know their relationship to the means of production and the movement of capital know what I am talking about. Immigration is an issue of class and exploitation. Applying rights as a matter of birth rights and economic status is whats happening here.

As well as a lot of scapegoating.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

13. Very well said

Especially in noting the pernicious effects of right to work laws. Some of the most vociferous objections to the presence of brown people who pick lettuce, kill chickens and scrub toilets also happen to come from red states whose populace has routinely supported policiticans who talked about "the rite to wuhk," and how "we don' need no unions no more." Interestingly, those places have the highest influx of immigrants in states without a direct border connection.

Derned fool "conservatives" have conserved themselves slap out of a job. If it wasn't so sad it would be hilarious.

[Nothing Without Hope]

14. Related: a new Frank Rich editorial: How Hispanics Became the New Gays:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1405628
thread title (6-12-06 – General Discussion): Frank Rich/NYTimes: HOW HISPANICS BECAME THE NEW GAYS (with free link)

A good read.

[Tigress DEM]

17. Personally, I sympathize with those immigrating here... but I also..

believe that this type of post is a bit counter productive.

It is stirring up animosity, where you need to be trying to create and understanding of the nature of the problem being faced.

Name calling, ie: "Why we think you're bigots" is going to get you on the main board and yet the type of discussion will fall into two types. Those that rally behind you and agree with everything you say and those that object on basis of your tone and the name calling and negate everything you say.

You've made great points. But it isn't the DU that is laying the blame at the feet of the immigrants.. it's bushco.

When someone buys the lemon, or a lie that has been embedded in our social psyche, the best response on DU is to point to the origin of the lie and find out if the person realizes it.

I know it takes longer that way.

I've stayed up late into nights I needed sleep just to go back and forth with people over points in order to stay away from the gratification of the huge "pay attention slap" that seemed to be called for. But people on DU really WANT to understand. The difficulty is the dis-information out there.

All the US would really need to do is enforce the laws we have on the books and work on some sort of amnesty for good behavior program and FUND the groups that have spent years and years dealing with the immigration situation.

What is broke about the policy is more the fact that there isn't funding to do the job properly so that immigrants can be treated as people even as those who come illegally and those who hire them get consequences for not following the rules everyone else has to. Hey, I hate to get a speeding ticket, but I know every time I creep over the limit, it could happen.

The present laws do send people back, but they don't make this into a felony criminal act and the present laws don't blame the immigrant for all our woes.

It's like the whole social security deal.. smoke and mirrors to get people fighting about stuff that the administration has no intention of really fixing anyway... unless it's like the way you "fix" elections. A phony fix that gives them political cred is all they are after.

Getting the bozos out of office has to be our real agenda.

Me amo Mexico y el gente aqui y alla. But I think they need some incentives to stay in Mexico until they can immigrate legally and some disincentives if they break the rules. But I think the businesses that exploit them should be punished most severely.

[unlawflcombatnt]

49. Bush FAVORS Amnesty & Guest Workers

You've made great points. But it isn't the DU that is laying the blame at the feet of the immigrants.. it's bushco.

He hasn't made any points at all, other than that he's an experienced name-calller and race-baiter. Continuing to call people racists, bigots, xenophobes, white nationalists, etc. is not
making "great points." It does, however, illustrate how little else he has to say.

And it's "bushco" who favors open borders, amnesty, guest workers, and non-prosecution of employers for illegal hiring, along with John McCain, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, and Corporate America. It's amazing how many times people here try to claim that Bush opposes unlimited illegal immigration. It's factually and undeniably wrong. Bush is the best ally amnesty/open borders advocates ever had. He agrees with you. At least stop repeating that pearl of "dis-information."

People aren't disagreeing with him because of his "tone" or name-calling. They're disagreeing with him because his arguments are illogical and without merit. As a result, he needs to resort to playing the race card to have anything to say at all.

Changing his "tone" won't help him. Changing his illogical and fact-deficient arguments will. Continuing to play the race card and create straw-man arguments just verifies how little he really has to say.

unlawflcombatnt

EconomicPopulistCommentary

EconomicPatriotForum

___________
The economy needs balance between the "means of production" & "means of consumption."

[Tigress DEM]

65. Bush SAYS a lot of things, but his actions don't follow suit.

Point in fact, did he follow through on anything from his state of the union address?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/31/AR2006013101468.html


But enough about *ush for the moment. The OP states that the immigrants are not to blame for every problem laid at their feet. Jobs that have been exported to India for example. High paying IT jobs that went away and never came back.

An entire national policy that so richly rewards practices like bankrupting your company to make unions buckle or dumping your pension plans and exporting jobs to such and extent that if one company does it their competition needs to do it as well to remain in business wasn't the doing of any immigrants.

Immigrants aren't running up billions in debt with a war that was based on a lie, bankrupting our country and putting us at the mercy of China and other countries who we keep borrowing money from in ever increasing sums.

Immigrants aren't shredding our Constitution with late night parleys to undo work done in committees or adding their own amnesty to legislation with signing statements that are un-Constitutional.

Immigrants aren't spying on innocent Americans just to see if they might be saying a discouraging word about the pRes.

We have problems besides immigration.

The amount of hype this issue is getting is taking away from other more pressing matters. It is important. It must be dealt with and the best solution will come after long hard debate and compromise. It isn't something you throw men with guns at and expect to be resolved properly.

We can have some measure of amnesty without leaving the border wide open and both myself and the OP mentioned prosecution of those who hire illegals.. so I don't know how you post yourself as being the only who sees things clearly.




****
Regarding Bush and Amnesty

Bush is (as usual) protecting big business and their stake in the issue by advocating amnesty and open borders while he knows his entire party will never let that happen.

Bush may say he wants amnesty and open borders. There is even some hint that he made a deal with Vincente Fox and got burned, but the blame for all the jobs going to immigrants and for them taking up all the benefits from the citizens DO come from his camp. He is the leader of his party, that is why I said BushCo and not simply Bush.

[inthebrain]

67. I think you make a lot of good points

The thing is Bush is offering temp status to illegals. It doesn't change their status and still hinders their ability to bargain for better wages. It still leads to exploitation.

The other side of the argument is to send these people back and seal the border. That solution still doesnt change whether or not a corporation can still exploit these people. As a matter of fact it enhances their ability to do so. Where ever labor is exploited it effects us all!!!

So you see, this argument here is a win-win for the corporations. And just who is giving us these options? Why of course!!!! The corporate owned media who never shys away from preventing us debate in the public forum to improve our society.

I am for for the option of REAL Amnesty. The option for these people to become full citizens!!!! Sending back 12 million people is going to create a human disaster area the likes of which North America has never seen.

[Tigress DEM]

69. One problem I see on both sides of this argument is black & white thinking

IF people must fully agree with you or be in the camp of seal the border, deport everyone, you aren't giving enough room for people to have an opinion that may be more in a shade of gray and therefore counting some as enemies who might be friends if they didn't feel like they were being called names or judged as having opinions that are beyond what they stated.

Again, that TYPE of thinking makes us look like talking point people instead of people dedicated to real solutions. Part of finding real solutions is listening and confirming for the other person what we heard them say, even when it's in a post.

People who have disagreed with you in their posts often bring up points you have made as rebuttals, which is amusing in a way, but it shows that the tone buried the message and that their filters were in high gear to hear only what they thought you would say based on the opening lines.

[inthebrain]

71. Here's the thing

I pointed out that there are many that oppose my views that I don't think are bigots.

Then there are those that when hit with facts tend to deny them immediatly. Take the example of minimum wage laws not protecting farm labor. Then we get into this "well if the illegals werent there the wages would be naturely higher because of supply and demand".

Yet supply and demand in the labor market work very differently for those in feilds that traditionaly pay poverty level wages.

Then there is the sect of people using VDare (designated a hate group by the Southern Poverty law center), Peter Brimelow and the Heritage Foundations very own George Borjas. I can forgive the heritage foundation but those that are using Vdare ARE bigots and racists.

Check this thread posted today;
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2677312

I offer up plenty of grey area. Those that get into scapegoating I am not going to offer them that benefit. Thats just despicable and it is RACIST!!!!

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Warren Stupidity]

22. No sense of Irony?

"Well, aren't you the pompous little name caller. And as far as illegals"

think about that.

[acmavm]

25. Sense of irony? You bet your ass. I'm sick and tired of

people who don't have a clue (or don't care because it sure ain't affecting them) about how immigration, illegal or otherwise, affects industries and communities in this country. And they think it's real damn cute to throw deroggatory names around like xenophobe or racist while they stand on their soap box preaching about how all the immigrants want is to earn a living. Well here's a bit of irony for you, so do the workers in THIS COUNTRY.

The majority of the people in this country want something done about illegal immigration. That includes democrats. Hell, there's been polls here and the results were the same. Illegal is illegal. If an immigrant is in this country legally, then he/she/they should be afforded all the rights that come with that green card. If they broke the law to get in here, then they have no rights except courteous and humane treatment when they are sent back home.

[High Plains]

40. Funny, I used to work in the packing houses in the Midwest.

We were unionized, wages were good. Then the companies broke the union and reorganized the industry. My son, who worked in packing houses in the 1990s, made about half what I did in the 1970s in real dollars. Guess what, it wasn't the Mexicans who broke the unions. And yes, I did see Mexican scab workers, but many fewer of them than red-blooded American scabs.

You can't blame the decline of the Midwest packing house and livestock industry on immigrant labor.

On edit: This is a perfect example of the scapegoating referred to above.

[acmavm]

44. Oh crap. The companies broke the unions by leaving. THEY

AREN'T HERE ANYMORE. THEY'RE GONE. The left when it became cheaper to hire immigrant labor in Arizona. I know, I'm still here. My brother and my friend's Dads who all worked in the plants are still here. The plants have been gone for decades and we've always known why. It's the same with the construction and roofing jobs here in the great Midwest.

Scapegoating my ass. Try to take a trip into the world of reality. Where did you work? When? Where are you now? I am highly suspicious of your 'post' considering how incredibly faulty your facts are.

[High Plains]

53. Sorry you're so suspicious.

Yeah, there's not as many plants in the Upper Midwest as in the past. Like the Morrell plant in Sioux Falls, SD, where I could never got on for more than a few weeks without being laid off again, or the Armour's plant in Huron, SD, same story. They're empty hulks now. But the IBP Dakota City, IA, plant is apparently still operating as a Tyson's plant. That's where I worked the most, and we made good union wages. This is all early 1970s.

So, Huron doesn't have Armour's (later known as Dakota Pork) anymore, or Dakota Beef, but now it's got a turkey plant with about 300 employees and a nearby beef jerky plant. Both of them are non-union and pay crappy non-union wages, like around $8 to start, I think.

My son worked at Dakota Pork in the 1990s. He was making about $7 an hour.

My facts are faulty? We can get into the history of the changing complexion of the meat packing industry if you wish, but I'd argue it's got a hell of a lot more to do with corporate concentration than with Mexican meat cutters. But given your attitude, I don't expect much intelligent argument anyway.

Now, where's your bona fides?

[acmavm]

55. Sitting here in Omaha, Nebraska, once the home of the WORLD'S

largest stockyards (process both pork and beef), paying attention to the stories of people who used to work in the plants. Some in my own family.

Yeah, corporate America has a lot to do with this situation. But then, if our immigration laws were enforced LIKE LAWS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. Packing plants would be forced to pay a livable wage, or at least one not below the poverty line.

Don't tell me about not expecting any intelligent conversation. I don't expect any from you either. You people who are so gung-ho for allowing immigrant labor without any restrictions are totally unrealistic and anti-American. Because for everytime you call us racist and xenophobes all you are doing is turning your back on Americans who need to work, who want to work, and want to earn a livable wage.

I'm sure you're not impresse with my bona fides, but then again I'm now too knocked out by yours.

[High Plains]

57. Now I'm anti-American. Way to win debating points.

I'll not waste any more time with you.

[acmavm]

64. I'm so hurt.

[truedelphi]

43. Give 'em hell acmavm

In San Diego there are no longer any white plumbers, carpenters, masons,

Never mind that some of us hoped that by the late nineties the trades (traditionally white and male) would be open to women, and minorities.

Ride around the local affluent suburb. Do you see one woman working on the crews in the yards? Do you see any blacks? The foreman of these projects, now in many places in California, is an immigrant who has been here fifteen or so years, and he is making big bucks ($ 175 an hour maybe) He is not opening these positions to anyone but the guy standing out on the street as a day laborer.

[lumberjack_jeff]

26. Q-tips should come with a warning - insert this far only.

Attempting to clean out both ears simultaneously with one swab can lead to the kind of illogic demonstrated here.

"I find that the only people who cry the "race card" and "race baiting" are those that happen know their own bigotry. I have never been wrong on this issue."?

What pompous bullshit.

Here in my part of the country, the people who are most harmed by illegal immigration are native americans. They experience crushing poverty due to the lost jobs in their traditional industries. One major reason that illegal immigration must end is precisely because it disproportionately harms ethnic minorities.

I find that the only people who call advocates for working americans "racists" are those who benefit from cheap labor. I have never been wrong on this issue.

[inthebrain]

29. Same old scapegoating

It's not as if Native Americans have have been getting the shaft for centuries.

Ooooops, now it's all the fault of illegals!!!!! Do you ever see yourself as part of the problem?

[lumberjack_jeff]

30. No, I don't.

And it's not the fault of the illegals, it's the fault of a) the corporatists who profit from having our labor cheaply and b) the hand-wringers for whom defending our interests seems undignified, somehow.

[inthebrain]

37. So then you would be willing to examine the difference between

those running around claiming "they are here to steal our jobs" versus those of us that say "they are as exploited as we are exploited"?

Would you say there is a difference between those two? Nobody takes a job to steat a job from another. The ones running around making claims of "job theft" are making claims to paint immigrants as perpetrators. That is scapegoating and it's bigoted.

When the real issue is that it's a matter of exploitation here and abroad.

I don't paint everyone who makes these claims as a bigot or a racist. Much of this info is coming from outside sources (Mainly the news and people like Lou Dobss. People that have their own corporate issues at stake.) but its easy to pick out the ones who are bigots. They are the ones that are staunch defenders of the idea that immigrants are to balme for out healthcare system and poor job market.

No matter how many times you correct them with factual evidence to the contrary these idiots continue the same faulty scpegoating talking points.

[lumberjack_jeff]

56. It's a distinction without a difference

If tyson foods is bringing 'em here for their exploitive purposes or illegals are coming here to take advantage of the opportunity, the cure is the same - stop illegal immigration by cracking down on the businesses who hire them.

It's true that there are some comparatively trivial and often prejudicial arguments (speak english!) put forward on the topic, but it is also true that there is a very real, and very tangible negative impact upon the domestic workforce which costs poor working americans billions. Also, as others have pointed out, the fact that hundreds of thousands of people can enter the US illicitly each year shows the lack of importance we place on the topic of domestic security.

When push comes to shove, degrading the worth of US labor is more important to the people who run things.

[inthebrain]

58. I would go further

and say degrading labor anywhere hurts all workers. I don't hold those that want to seal off the border in the same light as those that are heartset on blaming all of our problems on illegals. Even the idea that they drive down wages isnt entirely their fault.

The areas of the economy they are in (mainly agriculture) are exempt for minimum wage laws;



The following are examples of employees exempt from both the minimum wage and overtime pay requirements:

Executive, administrative, and professional employees (including teachers and academic administrative personnel in elementary and secondary schools), outside sales employees, and certain skilled computer professionals (as defined in the Department of Labor's regulations); 1

Employees of certain seasonal amusement or recreational establishments;

Employees of certain small newspapers and switchboard operators of small telephone companies;

Seamen employed on foreign vessels;

Employees engaged in fishing operations;

Employees engaged in newspaper delivery;

Farm workers employed on small farms (i.e., those that used less than 500 "man‑days" of farm labor in any calendar quarter of the preceding calendar year); and

Casual babysitters and persons employed as companions to the elderly or infirm.
The following are examples of employees exempt from the overtime pay requirements only:

Certain commissioned employees of retail or service establishments;

Auto, truck, trailer, farm implement, boat, or aircraft salespersons employed by non‑manufacturing establishments primarily engaged in selling these items to ultimate purchasers;

Auto, truck, or farm implement parts‑clerks and mechanics employed by non‑manufacturing establishments primarily engaged in selling these items to ultimate purchasers;

Railroad and air carrier employees, taxi drivers, certain employees of motor carriers, seamen on American vessels, and local delivery employees paid on approved trip rate plans;

Announcers, news editors, and chief engineers of certain non‑metropolitan broadcasting stations;

Domestic service workers who reside in their employers' residences;

Employees of motion picture theaters; and

Farmworkers.
http://www.dol.gov/compliance/guide/minwage.htm





Much of this requires simply looking at the laws on the books.

[lumberjack_jeff]

59. Accomplished prevaricators don't provide the link to the truth.

You left out a line. Actually, you had to go out of your way to delete it. "Left out" implies absence of intention.

The following are examples of employees exempt from both the minimum wage and overtime pay requirements:

* Executive, administrative, and professional employees (including teachers and academic administrative personnel in elementary and secondary schools), outside sales employees, and certain skilled computer professionals (as defined in the Department of Labor's regulations); 1
* Employees of certain seasonal amusement or recreational establishments;
* Employees of certain small newspapers and switchboard operators of small telephone companies;
* Seamen employed on foreign vessels;
* Employees engaged in fishing operations;
* Employees engaged in newspaper delivery;
* Farm workers employed on small farms (i.e., those that used less than 500 "man‑days" of farm labor in any calendar quarter of the preceding calendar year); and
* Casual babysitters and persons employed as companions to the elderly or infirm.

...and then I find that you've deleted the next sentence...

The following are examples of employees exempt from the overtime pay requirements only:

Funny that you deleted this one. Kinda changes the whole deal, dunnit? as in "Farm labor is paid minimum wage". Or at least those who are working here legally are.

* Certain commissioned employees of retail or service establishments;
* Auto, truck, trailer, farm implement, boat, or aircraft salespersons employed by non‑manufacturing establishments primarily engaged in selling these items to ultimate purchasers;
* Auto, truck, or farm implement parts‑clerks and mechanics employed by non‑manufacturing establishments primarily engaged in selling these items to ultimate purchasers;
* Railroad and air carrier employees, taxi drivers, certain employees of motor carriers, seamen on American vessels, and local delivery employees paid on approved trip rate plans;
* Announcers, news editors, and chief engineers of certain non‑metropolitan broadcasting stations;
* Domestic service workers who reside in their employers' residences;
* Employees of motion picture theaters; and
* Farmworkers.

Care to restate?

[inthebrain]

60. How does my error change

the fact that it still says farm laborers are exempt from mimum wage protections?

Obviously we are now hitting on something where basic logic fails your argument. I stated that farm laborers are exempt from minimum wage laws. Wouldny the fact that they are exempt from overtime protection BOLSTER my argument.

So your attempt to play GOTCHA has fallen a little flat here.

(edited; The line is in there. Try getting some reading glasses)

[lumberjack_jeff]

61. Read again.

It is very clear. Farms which employ more than 5 or so people are not exempt from minimum wage provisions of FLSA. They are only exempt from the overtime provisions.

But, having deleted the pertinent sentence, you know that.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sendero]

27. Stupid is stupid..

.. and no amount of attempting to paint those who oppose your simple-minded point of view as "racist" is going to wash with anyone with an IQ above 90.

Illegal immigration is not an all or nothing issue. Morons who try to make it one piss me off. But I won't waste my time talking to you, you've already demonstrated a total incapacity to understand it at all.

[deaniac21]

33. The blame for some of these problems needs to be

LAIN ON THE FEET OF THE BIGOTS before the reek more HAVOC!

[Castilleja]

63. !!!

Took me a second, but I finally caught it.

[Le Taz Hot]

35. Flame bait

SS DD.

[unlawflcombatnt]

36. Fiction vs. Facts

Fact or Fiction?

Let's individually address some of your fictional denials of these facts.

Lack of jobs = Illegal Immigrants are stealing them
True. Illegal immigrants have taken 7 million of the 143 million jobs in the United States. Thus, they've taken 7 million jobs that Americans would have otherwise taken.

Declining wages = Illegal Immigrants will work for less
True. Illegal aliens do work for less. But that's only part the story. Illegal aliens also increase the supply of labor, which drives the "price" of labor down. That means they drive wages down. Due to the fact that they drive wages down, they also drive aggregate worker income down. That means less money for consumer spending, causing less demand for production, causing less demand for workers to provide production, causing still further wage suppression.

Shrinking middle class
True. Illegal immigration suppresses wages, driving income down enough to push many workers out of the middle class.

Poor schools = Illegal Immigrants are flooding the school districts
True. Illegal aliens are paying less tax per student. Some aren't paying any taxes. The wage suppression they've caused reduces the tax base in their district. They tend to have larger families, meaning they contribute more students to the system per family, while paying less per family as a result of increased dependant deductions.

No money for teachers
True. Same as above. Illegal immigrant families are putting less money in per student, while increasing the number of students. That means less money to pay teachers.

Decline of Union Power = Yup, you guessed it !!!! The influx of illegals!!!!!
True again. More workers means less bargaining power per individual worker. The main bargaining chip workers have is their relative scarcity. Increasing the supply reduces that scarcity and bargaining power of workers. It also reduces union power because it increases the number of potential "scabs" who can undercut union wages. And unions are always less effective when there is an increased supply of workers. Union bargaining power is directly related to their ability to limit the supply of workers to an industry. This ability is reduced by an increased supply of labor. In addition, the AFL-CIO's embracement of illegal immigrants has reduced their power by alienating many American workers. Many now think they are not being well represented by the AFL-CIO, and their declining membership is evidence of that.


You haven't "knocked anything down with facts," because you don't have any facts. All you have is your fiction-based rhetoric, and your frequent playing of the race card.

unlawflcombatnt

EconomicPopulistCommentary

EconomicPatriotForum

___________
The economy needs balance between the "means of production" & "means of consumption."

[inthebrain]

39. You're one of the people I was talking about in this post

I wonder, if you have kids are you driving down wages?

If you rent as opposed to owing property, are you guilty of destroying our schools?

How many illegal Immigrants are working as Dr's, Lawyers, Paralegals, Nurses, belong to a Union and work as teachers?

How many immigrants are responsible for passing taft hartly and right to work laws?

What is the role that unions play in a supply and demand workforce?

Let's see how well your analytical thinking skills pair out. You're cause and effect arguments so far are shoddy at best.

[LittleClarkie]

50. Yes, I see you said you were only out to insult part of the DU population

Though insulting any part of the population is rather against the rules.

[inthebrain]

51. You mean the same section of the DU population

That uses Peter Brimelow, founder of VDare, to back up their claims. The same Peter Brimelow whom the Southern Poverty Law Center has designated as a racist?

How about our other friend George Borjas who is a Heritage Foundation Fundy. These people are not Democrats!!!!!

You don't think they should catch heat?

[Bridget Burke]

73. Gosh, we're just supposed to ignore Peter Brimelow...

And John Tanton--who started out as an environmentalist, then became interested in zero-population & finally came out against "certain" populations.

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1360

We should only pay attention to the more respectable faces of the anti-immigration movement. Like the Center for Immigration Studies, which watches its language & supplies many of those busy graphics spammed around DU nowadays. Hey, they can even afford to hire Zogby to run a poll to prove their point. Just don't look too closely at the roots of the CIS.

[Tigress DEM]

70. But they are only a portion, not 100% of the cause of any of those problem

[inthebrain]

72. .

[robinlynne]

46. Howard Dean said the same thing in his kos speech.

[Mountainman]

47. Right fucking on! You hit it on the head! It is racism based on fear

of cultural change. I know because I was once a bigot against immigrants. I said all those things about them too. I know better now.

[inthebrain]

48. The mark of a good person

is one who is willing to re examine their stances on an issue.

Perhaps you would be willing to explain to some of these people what spurred your change and how you came to that realization.

You are right in that fear plays a big role in this. Is that not true of all racism?

[Zhade]

74. KandR

Fantastic post!

[inthebrain]

75. Have you noticed a trend in the debate?

There are people that now claim they are just "anti illegal immigrant" as opposed to "anti immigrant".

Have'nt we seen this in some for or another. Like the people who claim they are "anti zionist" only to spout off, "Jews Control the media"!!!!!

Are we not seing the same thing now? Only this time with immigration.....

[doc03]

76. Why even make this post, from the outset you are

calling anyone that disagrees with you a racist or stupid. I agree with all the causes 1-13 you listed, but also believe the claims against illegal immigration can be proven. There is one simple fact employers hire illegal workers because Americans are unwilling to work for the wages offered. I don't blame the illegals it's the employers that hire them.

[Amsterdam Hooligan]

77. I don`t buy that because

I`ve lived all over Europe for the last 10 years, and would still be there if 9/11 had not happen.....I marched in the 60`s in support of MLK, I marched in support of women`s rights, I`ve supported the gay movement, and I`ve even supported "Chicano movement" rights...... I fought in a unpopular war(Viet-Nam) for for United States , before I was a U.S. citizen....I`m the bastard child of a American soldier station in Europe and I was born in Oslo, Norway in 1949 to a young 20 year old single mother who escape the Nazi occupation of Norway and worked as a maid after the war for the military. My mother choose to go back to Norway, to have me....We are the only ones that survived of my family..... I HAD a American father and we had to "jump through hoops" in order to get to the U.S. And there was NO free ride for my mother and I. We came to this country as LEGAL immigrants. But my mother brought something to the table, she could speak English and had a good education. But I grew up in the ghetto of Cleveland,Ohio and inner-city of Columbus,Ohio and my mother worked and NEVER took a day of welfare or any other transfer payment.....After graduating from high school, I enlisted in the U.S. Army and served in Viet-Nam with the 173rd Airborne for 17 months. I really fought the war and didn`t sit at a base camp my whole tour of duty..... After the war I attended the U. of Southern Colorado and graduated with a degree in Sociology.....I worked 25 years for the AFLCIO organizing Public Employee Unions in the mid-west.....I love this United States, it`s my country......But every country I`ve lived in Europe has had this issue of "illegal immigration", it`s not just the U.S........My point.....What don`t you understand about "ILLEGAL".....I`m a "yellow-dog" Democrat, union supporting, war veteran LIBERAL.....So I will stop being nice.....Please don`t piss on my back and tell me it`s raining.....ILLEGAL immigration has to be stopped. And I`m the farthest thing from being a bigot....And please , don`t tell me about Hitler.....

[inthebrain]

78. Before I go into the misinformation on illegals and the AFL-CIO position

Have you noticed that the discussion is not about "illegal immigration".

They are talking about immigrants in general. They are claiming that you steal jobs.

[doc03]

79. I have looked over the posts and only see

one mention of legal immigrants in post #24 about H-1b visas. Since you can't justify (illegal) immigration you call us racist or try to change the context of the argument.