No snark/No flame: What are 'conservative' values (Serious discussion)

[Stinky The Clown]

For DLC bashers, this is not a DLC thread.

For far lefties or rabid partisans, this is not a 'move right' thread.

For any other doubters, this is a serious thread.

Just what are 'conservative' values? Not neocon, not fundy, not anything about the perversions we see today hoisted up as 'conservative'. While I agree completely that many of the values touted by conservatives are either bankrupt or wrong, there are some values, traditionally claimed as being conservative are, in fact, quite honestly in line with the values of any good Democrat.

A balanced federal budget is one. And, given where we are today, is laughable if claimed by the Republicans. Isn't this something on which we can base a 'common ground' argument with disaffected Republican voters? (oversimplification for the sake of discussion)

The rule of law thing is another one. Is there anyone on our side who espouses anarchy? Is there anyone on our side who condones crime and criminals? I do think we differ on how to solve the issue, but we certainly do NOT endorse crime. Nor are we soft of criminals. The difference is we're less inclined to vengeful punishment and more inclined to rehabilitative solutions for *some* criminals. (oversimplification for the sake of discussion)

What other supposedly conservative values can you thnk of that might form a similar basis for a common ground discussion with your Republoican friends.

[pepperbear]

1. smaller, less intrusive government (eom)

[Kipling]

2. Nationalism, capitalism, tradition, religious and family-based morality..

[calimary]

3. Smaller, less-intrusive government. NO nation-building.

Also - the environment.

It's already being embraced as a prominent issue among some religious fundamentalists - who have realized that worshipping God means taking good care of what HE gave us as custodians of His handiwork. I think THAT could be a powerful issue - positive, a very savvy wedge issue to subdivide the enemy and pull some of them over to our side. In THAT regard, it would be a uniting issue for much of America, regardless of political party leanings.

[MindPilot]

4. I think there really is lots of common ground here

The "true" conservatives and libertarians all seem to be good with privacy, individual freedom, a reasonable social safety net, reasonable regulations for business (emphasis on the "reasonable" because that really is pretty broad.) I think they all realize there has to be some taxation to keep things running and favor a fairly strict interpretation of the constitution.

Bottom line: just like the dipwads currently in power have co-opted and perverted Christianity, they've done the same with true (AUH2O-style) conservatism. We probably have more in common with the "average" Republican voter than we like to think.

On edit: The major impediment to any synergy between the left and the right is that the media has convinced everyone on the right that everyone on left wants to take their guns, raise their taxes and turn their kids gay.

[billbuckhead]

5. Nowdays conservatism is a front for PetroImperialism

It is a problem for the "Conservative" idealogues that the actual governence of the Bush administration is quite the reverse of what they profess to believe.

[MindPilot]

8. When Ronnie promised to "get big government off our backs"

I would respond with "yeah, and shove it up our ass."

Turns out I was right. Why don't they ever listen to me? Never mind don't answer that! :D

[Stinky The Clown]

16. I agree the media has been a large part of the divide-now-grown-to-chasm

Across the board, discourse on almost any topic debated in the public square has been reduced beyond oversimplification. Honest debate may not even be possible anymore.

Instead, what should be debate has been transformed into a team sport, black-and-white mentality. For us or against us. (Hard)Right or (Hard)Left. With that polarized paradigm established, one is left with only their own views (matched with one side or the other) and a dangerously foreshortened view of the side you chose not to support. The entire, vast, middle has been lost in favor of the extremes.

An honest media could fix this.

Honest people having honest discussions with other honest people on the other side - one on one discussions - can help. But only if done on a broad scale.

I dare say there are few in the TeamRepublican bleachers who can say what the current party **really** holds dear. Instead, they hold to the only 'reality' that seems obvious - that black and white world the media spoon feeds us. Similar things can be said about those in TeamDemocrat's bleachers, too; we're just more tolerant of them.

[izzie]

6. Reason, rules. fairness and to conserve what we all think is good.

And they have always liked taxes to go down and a more of less libertarian style of business.With in reason I like the last two also.

[stellanoir]

7. Strict adherance to our Constitutional rights, civil liberties,

habeus corpus, the Geneva Conventions, the separation of powers and church and state, preservation of the environment, are some that immediately come to mind.

[welshTerrier2]

9. "a house divided against itself cannot stand"

this is tough to answer because, like any other system of beliefs, it evolves over time and reacts to changing cultures and a changing world ...

viewed in the "classic" sense, i see the essence of "conservatism" as a belief system that wants to preserve traditional values and resist change ... this would position conservatives right along side the most dedicated hard-core lefties when it comes to honoring the letter and spirit of the Constitution and preserving our natural resources, our national parks and our environment ... and it would classically resist "global entanglements" ...

but "conservatism" has been poisoned and co-opted by big business ... today, ala the famous Eisenhower warning, we have conservatives marketing the evils of big government while exploiting the federal budget and federal policy for their own greedy gains ... one need not look beyond the defense budget and those who profit from its excesses to understand today's "conservatives" ...

i also think it's important to address the idea of balanced budgets ... even "liberals" don't get it right on this issue ... it is fair to say that balanced budgets have indeed been a mainstay of traditional conservatism ... but the public perception that progressives do not believe in balanced budgets as well cannot be allowed to stand uncontested ... the argument is total nonsense ... too many have allowed the necessary short-term deficit spending called for by FDR to bail us out of the depression to become the stigma attached to the Democratic Party ... go around and ask Democrats whether they believe it's good fiscal policy to spend more money than we have and run up multi-brazillion dollar deficits ... i'll save you the trouble - this is NOT what Democrats or the "far left" believes in ... we need to do a much better job advertising this ...

the core of the debate between "real" conservatives and progressives is the role the government plays in the lives of individuals ... progressives view government as a "safety net" necessary to ensure a minimum standard for all members of our "societal family" ... conservatives focus on "self reliance" with a view that government assistance will be exploited by some and will lead to dependency ...

we have become so partisan in our country, as we have in our own party, that we are no longer able to work together where there is common ground ... it is tragic to see our liberties eroding at a time that the left and the "real" right should be bonding together to fight to preserve them ...

[Stinky The Clown]

17. Welshy, you've hit a grand slam on this!

All the differences between us and them, save a few important core distinctions (self-reliance vs safety net being one), are at the margins.

Your observation about the perceptual legacy of the New Deal is also spot on. I was **always** amazed at the 'tax and spend' label we're saddled with. To be sure, there can always be found isolated examples of it every time we're in power, but one need only look to the Reagan, BushI and Il Dunce eras to see the lie in that tired old saw.

I made an entry in my journal not long ago about that very notion, and didn't even go back to FDR.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Husb2Sparkly/9

Another DUer and I were batting around a sorta related topic - Democratic Party 'branding' - to look at ways to change these dead-wrong perceptions. Sadly, that thread died when it remained a simple dialogue.

And you know ..... while I started this as a way to look at, acknowlege, and perhaps find ways to use for our own purposes our common ground with the right, it would also be useful for many in our party to look for the common ground we have on our core issues. As there are unfair sterotypes of the larger party in the public consciousness, so are there the same sorts of misconceptions among the factions in our own party. Too many see anyone left of ..... I dunno ... Paul Sarbannes? (to select a completely non-controversial middle of the roader) as a spokesmodel for the most out-there ACTION Coalition wacko. That kind of thinking is no less destructive than the imagined chasm between the left and the right. Differences abound. Chasms ... not nearly what everyone would have us believe.

[cssmall]

10. Think of the definitions.

What is the basic connotation of conservative (pre-Bush)? Traditional ways are the best and most understood ways, try to deviate far from those and you will be fine. That basically sums up true conservativism in addition to the other posts.

That is not the problem, however, because these conservatives are easy to enter into discussions and argue their opinion and then not take offense or devolve into needless name-calling and stupidity. In other words, to not be snarky, you would be able to sit with them and discuss issues of importance.

The current politcal atmosphere is hard right. Meaning that the dialogue is set by extremely radical activists (yes, our's get more attention!), yet I find some solace in the fact that people that are generally conservative are fed up with the bullshit just as much as we. It is an interesting time to be alive, especially when this "teenage" period of American government, history, society and culture advances further into the future. The question posed to both sides should be: are we the kid always wanting the best for everyone or are we the kid that hoards the best for themselves? I think we would venture a decent guess at that question currently.

America's a teenager, face it. We're either going to apply ourselves, learn from mistakes, and be willing to take advice OR we're going to slack off, get drunk, and absolutely no offense meant here to anyone, plow our car into a concrete wall.

[BeatleBoot]

11. Win at any cost, Trash those who disagree, Line your pockets

Today's conservative in a nutshell.

[Stinky The Clown]

18. Yes, that's today's conservative - as they've been defined

But this post is about intellectually honest people on the right (yes, they do exist). And it is my postualtion that, without need to change one iota of your (our) values, there is enormous common ground.

The ones in power today (to separate them from the members of their party) are not who this is about.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

12. States rights...huge issue. n/t

MKJ

[rock]

13. Values should imply a set of rules

Not a set of catchy phrases that need to be interpreted on an "as needed" (hypocrical) basis. Simply put: they don't have values, only empty slogans.

[Stinky The Clown]

19. Please see my post #18

That's completely true of today's republican leadership.

[Eugene]

14. A strong America, law and order, personal responsibility,

fiscal responsibility, strong families, respect for God,
and respect for tradition.

These values are laudable and liberals share them to a point.
We agree that America is a great country, but a great country
should be held to high standards. Responsibility is good,
but don't turn your backs on the poor. Tradition and order have
their place, but we should not close our society to diversity
and new ideas.

The neoconservative values of chaos and plunder are cynical perversions
of conservative ideals. And unfortunately, a modern Republican is
a person of noble ideals who will readily cast them aside for political
expediency.

[Stinky The Clown]

21. Said another way ......

I'll stipulate we share all those values (and we pretty much do). One fundamental difference is how we would propose we get there. Conservatives *tend* to make it the responsibility of each citizen to get there on their own. Liberals *tend* to see the path up as being lined with hands reaching out in assistance.

[Zorra]

15. I don't have any republican friends. It is impossible for me to

relate to people whose belief systems are not reality based. Trying to reason with a republican is like interacting with someone that is either severely mentally ill, or a seven-year old child.

When a persons core belief system and basic understandings of political, economic, and social events are totally based on disinformation, misinformation, or delusions, it is impossible for me to establish a common ground with that person without my being disingenuous and condescending.

Yeah, I've tried many times to reason with republicans in the past. They simply discount fact when presented with it, get extremely angry, and never even attempt to offer logical arguments or facts that would support their position.

When I bring up something like the federal deficit, they usually tell me that there really is no federal deficit because blah, blah, blah or yada yada yada.

If you haven't already read this, this article may help give you some insight into the conservative mind and maybe in finding common ground with a republican.

Researchers help define what makes a political conservative
By Kathleen Maclay, Media Relations | 22 July 2003 (revised 7/25/03)

Four researchers who culled through 50 years of research literature about the psychology of conservatism report that at the core of political conservatism is the resistance to change and a tolerance for inequality, and that some of the common psychological factors linked to political conservatism include:

Fear and aggression
Dogmatism and intolerance of ambiguity
Uncertainty avoidance
Need for cognitive closure
Terror management

"From our perspective, these psychological factors are capable of contributing to the adoption of conservative ideological contents, either independently or in combination," the researchers wrote in an article, "Political Conservatism as Motivated Social Cognition," recently published in the American Psychological Association's Psychological Bulletin.

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/07/22_politics.shtml

Good luck!

[Sparkly]

20. "Need for cognitive closure"

I've never heard that phrase before -- it's perfect!!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

22. Staying out of other nations

and minding our own business-though conservatives take it a step too far by wanting out of the UN.

Also, being wary of the military-industrial complext (Eisenhower warned us about that one).

Showing integrity in office, and being courteous of opponants-you never know when you might be in the minority.

Saving-saving gas, resources, being thrifty, and NEVER trusting Big Business (these were words from my Republican great-grandmother, who died in 1957 at age 94).

[Stinky The Clown]

23. The myth of Republicans and business

'Liberals are all communists and Conservatives are all Chamber of Commerce members" ..... or something like that.

My own next door neighbor is a prime example of this kind of thinking. And I'll use him and his issues just by way of example. I strongly believe he is emblematic of **many** 'Republicans'. I put Republican in air quotes because, if he ever stopped to **really** think about his lown views and values, he'd be a Democrat. And not a far right one, either.

Somewhere along the line, the Rs got the reputation of being pro-business. Many little guys, like my neighbor, took that to mean that, as a small business person, the Rs would better serve his needs. But what gets lost in that debate is the actual policies the Rs put forward. In reality, their policies do no more for small business than they do to further the work of NOW or the ACLU. Small business people are really just more working people. Their needs are far more in line with what the unions espouse than what the Rs espouse. But many small business people *imagine* themselves as captains of industry. So they identify with that side of the spectrum.

I can't imagine one small business person who would favor tax cuts for those wealthier than they. I can't imagine one small business owner in a WalMart town that would vote against some protection from corporate predation. I can't imagine one small business owner would would welcome some 'little guy' help at the cost of some increased corporate taxation.

But I also can't imagine one small business person, who also votes R, who would endorse heavy business controls or regulations. Because they **imagine** such regualtion would also apply to them.

Again, it is a matter of perception, not a matter of fact.

More in common than not.

[Totally Committed]

24. When I think of (Non-Religion-based) Conservative Values,

"smaller governement" and "pull yourself up by the boot-straps" comes to mind. I used to see possible common ground there, but no longer. The day I saw a Black child floating on a log next to the dead body of his mother in New Orleans, all that changed forever. There is no "compassion" in conservatism. There is no safety-net for the poor in smaller government. There are some so poor they can't possibly "pull themselves up by their bootstraps". They have none.

To my mind, conservatives are about conservation... of their own resources for themselves. And, "smaller government" is a code phrase for "spend less money on people who aren't like me", "laws that benefit people like me", and "tax cuts for people like me". And anyone who is so poor that they can't "pull themselves up by their own bootstraps" have only themselves to blame.

F*ck conservative values. Just f*ck them to hell. I just don't see any way to find common ground with a mindset like this. I just don't.

TC

[Stinky The Clown]

26. TC, I think you perfectly describe the current breed of .....

.... I'll call them 'mutant conservatives'. They're of the 'Me first, fuck you" mindset and they are, as you say, detestable. They are the current leadership and their most ardent supporters. The 30%.

But the reaction to Katrina could well also give some lie to your view. To be very clear, there were and still are more than a few who hold the views you describe. But Katrina, perhaps more than anything else, also is the one event when the armor in the current cabal's arsenal was punctured. And it has been a steady and unrelenting decline for them. Maybe not legislatively, and maybe not even enough to prevent another stolen election, but its there.

I suspect the 'there but for the grace of god' crowd far exceeds the 'fuck them' crowd.

And in that, surely, there's some commonality.

[Totally Committed]

27. I used to believe this...

And, I want to believe the 'there but for the grace of god' crowd far exceeds the 'fuck them' crowd, as you have said, but I have never felt to dismally about my country. I have never suffered a loss of faith as I have now... and I have to tell you, I know I hide it brilliantly (not!), but I find myself at a time of my life where I should be finding pleasure in a rocking chair and a good crossword puzzle, ANGRY ALL THE TIME. It's visceral. And, it's compunded by the fact that I see my Party doing little or nothing to fight against the forces at play.

I am a distinctly UNsweet little old lady these days, and I don't see it getting any better.

Wanna know something conservative I think this country should do? -- PAY DOWN THE DEFICEIT. Tax cuts for the rich should be abolished and the money saved used specifically for that. Period. Now, show me a conservative Republican willing to come out for that, and I'll consider the case for a 'there but for the grace of god' crowd.

TC

[Stinky The Clown]

28. TC, I'm right there with you

Sometimes, when we eat dinner, we have the teevee on. Since we eat later than most people (9 PM is not unusual) teevee often has a nice show on Discovery or History or an old movie (Sparkly *loves* old movies) or some such. Or its Keith leading into Scarborough.

And I rail. I yell and scream. I hit my fist on the counter or table. Veins stand out, spittle flies and my face and neck get red.

Sparkly's admonitions are pretty consistent. "Calm down. You'll have a heart attack." "Why do you **watch** them?" "Turn on HG-fucking-TV."

I call it, alternately, Outrage Fatigue or Outrage Overload.

Truly ..... I feel your pain.

My reaction is always to lash out and paint with a broad brush. I scream invectives yet to be heard by man, let alone catalogued. And that's just wrong. Hard to stop. But wrong.

[annabanana]

25. I highly recommend this thread:

regarding conservatism and "conservatism".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2650645

[pink-o]

29. Maybe "Real" Conservative Values

Seem to have a lot in common with what liberals believe, but lest we forget, the motivation for reaching the same conclusions is a helluva lot different.

Most of what they embrace is out of fear, or because they're being told by an authority figure. I mean, we believe in the Golden Rule because it's the right thing to do and socially it's a better world if everyone feels loved, respected and valued. They believe in it because God might punish them elsewise.

And to me, the biggest rift between Us and Them is that they TRULY think people are poor or unemployed because of laziness. Conserv-o's have no perception, no concept of the racism and limitations that might keep good people down. I remember Reagan stating that no one in America goes hungry unless they want to...what an ignorant thing to say (unless he was talking about Dick Gregory and his hunger strikes to protest nuclear weapons...). And when AIDS first reared its insidious head, the conserv-o's blamed the gay lifestyle and allowed it to go unchecked so it could become the pandemic it is now.

The conservative way of thinking is dangerous, no doubt about it. But the sick reality is that we need to get in bed with them and find mutual benefit to work towards solutions we can live with (eg: health care. Corporate America is sick of paying for their employees; if we approach that issue properly we can hammer out a federal solution that will work for all of us.)

But never forget: No matter how righteous their lifestyles, conservatives never have your best interests at heart. If everyone's on the same page, then all is well. But the minute you diverge, you're out in the cold, Baby!

[Cosmocat]

30. Take EVERYTHING ...

That this president/admin and congress have done the last 6 years with two exceptions, cutting taxes to the rich and non-stop flagwaving ... Take the opposite of it, and that is what would be "conservative values" ...