WHAT A FOOL BELIEVES

[NanceGreggs]

By Nancy Greggs

For a long time, I cut my fellow citizens who voted for Bush a lot of slack. I didn’t think they were all stupid or ill-informed, but simply misled into accepting him at face value when he talked about being a compassionate, moral, down-home, good Christian man.

Even when these same people voted for Bush in 2004, I believe many of them thought the trials and tribulations of his first term were simply ‘growing pains’ as he set the country on a different course towards peace and prosperity. The groundwork painstakingly laid in his first term would bear fruit; the deficit would be reversed, Iraq would emerge as a democracy, the war on terror would be declared a total victory, and the nation would once again be back on track.

But as the consequences of this regime have unfolded since the beginning of Bush’s second term, and as he slips into below 30% approval territory, I have come to accept that the people who still support him and defend his policies are just downright stupid.

The corollary of a staunchly maintained belief in Bush and his buddies is that you have to be able defy logic at every turn, to suspend belief in everything you’ve heretofore accepted, and to ignore facts as obvious as the ever-lengthening nose on President PNACio’s face.

If you still honestly think the War in Iraq is going smoothly, you’ve got to believe that with all of the reporters currently there, not a single one of them is able to get an iota of ‘good news’ out to the rest of the world. You have to accept that with the vast resources at the disposal of the president and his staff, they can’t manage to get the video footage of schools and hospitals being built, or the photographs of Iraqis going about their lives in peaceful harmony, to a single newspaper or TV network.

If you still believe that Bush is a good Christian, you undoubtedly have to be able to swallow a whale (Jonah and all) whole, and accept that the traditional teachings of Christianity have somehow been misconstrued for two thousand years. You have to accept that what Jesus was REALLY admonishing his followers to do was torture their enemies, ignore the poor, and prey on the sick and vulnerable for the profit of the already wealthy.

As for the fact that Bush swore on the Bible to uphold the Constitution and then blatantly disregarded same, you have to believe that crossing your fingers behind your back negates even the most solemn oath, and that God Almighty is just fine with taking advantage of the ‘signing statement’ loophole.

If you still support this Administration’s fiscal policies, you have to believe that outsourcing American jobs is actually a GOOD thing, that somehow a country full of underpaid, uninsured sales clerks and wait staff will lead us to new heights as a super-power in the global economy. You have to accept as fact that well-paying jobs are being sent to India or China because they are jobs that ‘Americans just don’t want to do’, because the average highly-educated, highly-trained US worker would rather collect unemployment benefits for a few months than collect a substantial paycheck for years to come.

You also have to believe that the debt the country is now facing will simply disappear someday, and not a penny of a single outstanding loan will ever have to be repaid. You have to accept that things like compounded interest payments don’t exist – and if they do, no one ever actually expects to collect.

With regard to the taxpayers’ money that continues to vaporize between the pockets of war profiteers and its intended destinations like Iraq, Afghanistan, and NOLA, you have to wholeheartedly embrace the notion that huge, multi-national corporations like Halliburton have stacks of shoeboxes full of receipts somewhere, which will someday appear and account for every dime spent.

On the issue of patriotism, you have to believe that sending troops into battle with body armor is a waste of the taxpayers’ dollars, while putting a magnetic yellow ribbon on your car actually saves lives. And you have to accept that decreasing veterans’ pensions and benefits is the best way to show gratitude for services rendered after-the-fact.

You’ve got to believe that the government accessing the phone records, letters and email of people living in Bumfuck, Montana, is the fastest way to capture Osama Bin Laden and bring Al Qaeda to its knees. And you’ve got to accept that that exercise makes more sense than checking the billions of pounds of cargo that pour into our ports every day.

You’ve got to believe that fine upstanding citizens like Libby and Rove are being railroaded, and if Fitzgerald was really doing his job, he would have indicted Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame by now.

You’ve got to believe that when Democrats call for things like transparency in government, fair election procedures, and fiscal responsibility, they’re trying to undermine the entire nation.

Like I said, you’ve got to be downright stupid. And the 29% of the population who still wholeheartedly believe this crap are.

But there is a way we can use this stupidity to our own advantage, by discouraging these people from participating in the political process. And that is easily done.

When you find yourself in conversation with one of these 29-percenters, remind them not to bother to vote this November because it’s just a test to make sure all of the Diebold machines are in working order. Tell them to vote on April 1st, the new official date for the mid-term election.

Assure them that volunteering to campaign for anyone running for office has been suspended for national security reasons, and donating money to their favorite candidate was outlawed last week when Bush, in a top-secret meeting with Congress, signed a new bill into law.

Tell them not to worry about the NSA spying on them, because all of the agents have been given a list of who’s naughty and who’s nice, and there isn’t a single Bush-supporter on the ‘naughty’ list.

If they ask why they haven’t heard about any of this news on TV, just roll your eyes and say, “That damned liberal media is at it again, keeping the country misinformed.” They’re bound to nod in complete agreement.

You don’t think they’ll fall for it? Don’t be so sure. Remember, these people will believe ANYTHING.

[tavalon]

1. You sure are prolific

And yet profoundly on target, again and again. You ought to do a compilation book like Will Pitt did, which is BTW, as profound as his many writings, just all in one place.

You may already be published for all I know. If you are, let me know, I want one or two or five of your books. If you aren't published, would you talk to Will Pitt and Plaid Adder about how to go about that? I'm not blowing smoke here, I'm serious.

[classysassy]

30. Bush supporters

are not just fools,they are damn fools.

[NanceGreggs]

41. Thanks for your kindness, Tavalon.

No, I am not 'published' as such, but my political rambings can be found in my journal here at DU, so feel free to browse. It's become a rather extensive body of work (can't seem to keep my mouth shut).

The journal includes my 'article-type' posts here on DU, as well as links to actual articles, written as such as published on the Home page in the Articles section.

Thanks again!

[tavalon]

48. Well, what I'm saying is that your stuff out of 80,000+

DU readers and writers is good enough to be published and that it needs to get published. We need all the Will Pitts, Molly Ivins, Greg Palasts, even Michael Moores we can get. I'm not sure you realize I'm not just complimenting you, I'm asking you to step back and look at this as a necessary thing for you to do, not just in blogland but fully published. You're that good. I have ideas as good as yours, as good as Will's and many others, that said, my writing is mediocre. I suppose it's pretty important that I start taking my ideas seriously and take writing classes to learn the skills, the skills (and art) you already have in abundance.

We each have our part to play in what's coming and a few of you will be our Patrick Henrys and our Thomas Jeffersons and Ben Franklins, our pamphlet writers, inflamers of public support through the medium of writing. You are one of them. Take it as a compliment if you wish, but listen closely to the request, nay, even demand of your heart. You have a gift and a calling.

Technically, I'm breaking the rules here (not really) because I'm calling you out. It's clear what your place in this Army is to be. Please take up your roll actively and with the zeal shown in your great work.

[Brigid]

2. You're right. They're stupid.

If they haven't figured out by now that this is the most corrupt, incompetent regime in American history, then there is no other way to describe them.

[zonmoy]

22. perhaps we are atributing to stupidity what should be atributed

to malevolence. the ones that still love bush are the truly evil cristofascistic thugs.

[The Wizard]

23. But they are

competent treasury looters.

[Dunvegan]

3. Excellent point: Bush swore on the bible to protect the Constitution.

...not individual Americans, not profits, not borders...THE CONSTITUTION.

Liar, liar...tossed the bible in the fire. (Right after tossing the Constitution there.)

[bonzotex]

4. very nice rundown.

Getting the true believers to skip the midterms will require more than misdirection.

In the military, we used to call people like the bushbots not just stupid, but, "aggressively stupid." When regular stupidity wasn't enough, the aggressively stupid look for proactive ways to multiply and enhance their stupidity.

These people are still very very dangerous.

[yourout]

6. As Stephanie Miller would say.....

Extra Crispy kind of aggressively stupid.

[AlamoDemoc]

5. K&R...If you are not by now a writer, you ought to be off the waiting list

[NanceGreggs]

45. I haven't written 'professionally' since the 'seventies ...

... when I worked for many years as a writer for a music business magazine here in Toronto.

At the time, I thought that making sense out of what the latest lead guitarist had to say was the fiercest challenge a writer could face. But then the Bush administration came along - and I'll be damned if I don't look back on those drug-alcohol-and-fame besotted musicians as more intelligible (and intelligent) than the current GOP crop.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

7. Look at the standard bell curve

we're talking about the folks well left of middle intellectually. This is my firm belief. The only folks who support him now are intellectually challenged OR substantially wealthy.

[electropop]

15. I always refer to them as the bottom 38-35-30-29...percent

depending on the day of the week and where the countdown to zero is at the moment.

[fudge stripe cookays]

27. I've actually approached one who still had his bumper sticker

proudly displayed, and asked...

"So of the 30%, which are you...one of the selfish assholes, or the stupid morons?"

I was in my car and then drove off. I mean, I'm not stupid! ;)

[Klukie]

8. In my opinion.....

I don't think it is stupidity that drives these folks, but rather an unyielding stubbornness and an outright laziness. Granted I have a limited view, but the ones I do encounter are not stupid people in the general sense. My example is my right wing sister inlaw. I truly love her and we are good friends. We talk a few times a week for long periods of time. However, we try to avoid politics because when it comes to Bush we have no common ground. I strongly feel that she borrows many of her beliefs from her father and she has told me this as well. She completly justifies this lack of thought by stating that her father is a good man and has done well in his life so why shouldn't she trust his judgement. When I try to point out that it is better to look at all facts and make up your own mind she claims that she does. If I push for any type of real debate she goes right for the talking points or her fathers opinion. I have even offered to send her legitimate articles on various issues and she actually said don't bother that she wouldn't read them. Very frustrating to say the least. I would bet she is among the 29%. The thing is that she is so liberal on many issues but when it comes to this president she won't budge. I think that is where the stubbornness comes in. I think that she rather be hog tied and flogged naked in the public square before she would admit that she misjudged this president. It isn't her IQ that lacks, it is her inability to overcome her negative personality traits.

[calmblueocean]

12. Yup

I think it's a laziness and stubborness -- I might call it arrogance -- that comes from being so well off. Even if you're lower middle class in America, you're still better off than the majority of people in the world. Add to that a totally compliant lapdog media that never shows you anything too upsetting, and you end up with a population for whom the suffering of others isn't real. They'll donate to Feed the Children if they see an infomercial with starving kids, but the minute they're off the screen, it's back to la-la land, where everything's fine. Just like Barabara Bush's infamous quote, "Why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that?" As long as they've got their 'stuff', nothing else really bothers them.

[Klukie]

19. So very true.

I honestly think that anyone who is elected to any public office should be subject to a reality check in the form of six month relocation to the common mans' life. I am talking about a complete submersion. They must live in (god forbid) a trailor and work a job that pays only minimum wage. They should also have to assume the responsibility of paying the utilities, rent, car payment, groceries, medical, clothing, and any unforseens. Maybe just for kicks we could throw in a few obstacles such as vehicle trouble or increasing gas prices. Don't get me wrong I don't think you must be poor to understand the needs of the poor, but a little reality might give some folks more of an incentive to want to change things.

[tlsmith1963]

38. My Stepfather is One of Them

I think that in his case, he just doesn't bother to pay attention to things like the news. I think a lot of people on the conservative side are like that, unfortunately. They are so wrapped up in their materialistic lives that they just don't see what is really happening. I gave up on my stepfather long ago. He will just have to learn the truth the hard way. If Bush is impeached, people like him are going to be in for quite a shock because that's when everything will finally come out.

Tammy

[treestar]

50. IA, I know some people who are basically good people they just

need things to be wrapped up and simple when it comes to politics. That explains to me why so many right wing arguments are so easily assailable. If you stop there, you're OK, but if you think, you see the problem. They don't want to think, so they accept that first and shallow explanation.

They thus have faith in Bush rather than agree with him on the issues. If Bush says supporting the troops means supporting the war, they take that rather than think it through, if the troops are so strong, why does anyone questioning the war distract them so much?

The stubborness too. If there were no WMDs in Iraq, it must be that Saddam hid them in Syria (I've been informed of this by right wingers who are completely serious). They take that, not thinking through how weak the US would be if it couldn't keep tabs on the WMD better than that after keeping tabs on the Soviets' WMDs decades before, it would be absurd if Saddam could do that.

They accept at face value that these violations of the Constitution protect them from the terrorists without thinking through the implication that they are blindly accepting that any database will help at all, be used only for that, and that they are expecting the biggest nanny state ever if they really think the government has the duty to protect them personally.

[nxylas]

54. In my opinion too

Yeah, nobody likes to admit they've made a mistake. It's easier to keep kidding yourself that you did the right thing in voting for Bush and that his current troubles are someone else's fault (usually Clinton's).

[rucky]

9. You are now officially my favorite DU-er!

I always enjoy your stuff.

:yourock:

[NanceGreggs]

43. Thanks, rucky!

:hi:

[IronLionZion]

10. only stupid people think people are stupid

in this case it works out because the wingnuts think we're stupid.

Not everyone in America pays attention or even cares what happens. I guarantee at least 29% of Americans just don't give a shit and are content.

It's unfair that guns, God, and gays dominate so much of our political process but that's a truth we have to deal with. That and the overwhelming power of corporate money.

[sutz12]

11. I don't think it is stupidity, it's faith.

Pure and simple. These people have transferred the faith that should be attached to something worthwhile, like the good things that Christ taught, to a person or an ideal. To admit for a second that their faith is shaken would be to let their entire world crumble.

Their faith is sadly, perhaps criminally, misplaced, but it is the one thing they have left to cling to. They won't allow anything to overcome it, for that would force them to abandon the martyrdom they will experience when the whole movement fails. And we have to make sure that it fails.

[Scriptor Ignotus]

13. I don't call Bush supporters stupid

I call them the "Willfully Ignorant". But being willfully ignorant is of course stupid, so I guess it ends up being the same thing.

:dunce:

[justanothercitizen]

14. Bigots of a Feather...

They don't care if Bush runs up the debt, if his policies cause them to lose their jobs & benefits, if he spies on their phone & internet communications, or if he starts and ineptly executes multiple wars around the world. It doesn't matter to the Pharisees and hypocrites that support him that there are over 184 GOP scandals, many involving taxpayer money. It doesn't even matter if the "family values" party is involved in "hookergate". As long as Bush continues his work to keep away the brown people, the gays, the "furriners" and the feminists, and anyone else who isn't just like them, he's their hero.

[oc2002]

16. all of the above is true, in most cases people realy do not care about

..others..

it is lala land for most people never read a newspaper or watch news or come here for certain.

in reality..nobody cares ..

Until they are burned, lose thier jobs, lose thier kids in war, lose something they care about or effects them directly.

then they start to read the news, and get involved in finding out why.

[Mythsaje]

17. Damn! It's good to know that while I'm suffering from political

writer's block, there's someone as talented as you here to pick up the slack.

Another excellent piece, Nance.

[NanceGreggs]

44. I've missed you, Mythsaje!

I know you changed your work schedule a while back, and we hardly seem to run into each other any more.

I always read your posts when I find them, and they're always great. (So if you ever really do have "writer's block", it obviously doesn't last for more than five minutes at a time!)

[Mythsaje]

46. As of the first of the month I'll be on a day shift again...

That'll be nice.

And I tend to jump back and forth between fiction and political writing. When one goes dead, the other seems to spark. Right now I'm working under a deadline on a couple of different fiction projects. That tends to focus me pretty well.

[tomreedtoon]

18. It's not stupidity. It's need fulfillment.

The people that I've encountered that are hardcore Bush supporters believe it for reasons other than what you call "stupidity."

For instance, my auto mechanic - a very nice, generous and competent man - has a truck that is still full of anti-Kerry stickers and he always plays Limbaugh in his shop. He was a Vietnam vet who felt like he never got his due for his being put through hell. He sees liberals and Democrats as the source of his agony - yes, partially through the influence of Oxycontin Boy, but also through bad encounters with protestors when he got home.

In other words, through the snottiness of someone calling him stupid.

And there are religious people who follow the evangelical faiths because that was the tradition in which they were raised - how many of you have the religion of your parents? Or that faith may have rescued them from drug abuse or out-of-control sexuality or just plain despair. Such people don't feel inclined to pick-and-choose their beliefs, and often get sold on anti-abortion and anti-immigrant beliefs because it's part of the whole package - the package that saved them.

I know a lot of Democrats, progressives and what-have-you feel a psychological need to deride their enemies. It helps you feel better. Just remember it can have consequences - like the 29 percent that sees themselves as hardcore, embattled, solid Americans when everyone else has betrayed them. Ridicule them and treat them with disrespect, and they'll be the seed corn for the next wave of conservatism, which may be even worse than what we're going through.

[treestar]

51. They may not be stupid but they sound self centered to me

They are at least unwilling to think. Like you say, it is a faith, and they are just blaming other people for their problems. Some liberal called them dumb once and they are still harboring a grudge. Not even in their own self interest.

If they buy a package from someone who they considered saved them, they are like children. No real excuse for that in a free, wealthy county with access to so much information.

[tomreedtoon]

55. I think you still don't understand them.

"Unwilling to think?" That kind of reasoned, contemplative thought only happens when you're not starving or working your butt off to try to get out of debt. And when you're not terrified of losing your life to terrorists or drug addicts. Undoubtedly you have that enviable position, but most people don't.

"Self-centered?" When you're under attack - and understand these people either are, or believe they are, no difference when it comes to their feelings - everyone is self-centered. They don't want to die or their familes to die.

It's really easy to walk a mile in the shoes of someone who feels much like you do, and who comes from the same social class. It takes real effort to imagine yourself living the life of someone you see as your social or mental inferior. It's easy to laugh at a redneck joke. But it's not funny for the people in that life, and that's something progressives had better learn fast. Among the "Christian virtues" they should adopt, that Republicans don't really have, is compassion for those who hate them.

[Withywindle]

56. No, I'm sorry, have to weigh in here.

As I'm sure you know, there are many war veterans here, and poor people, and people with disabilities, and people with horrifying health problems with no recourse under our current system, etcetera - the whole sorry litany of people who've been betrayed by "compassionate conservative" government. Our anger at the * regime is what unites us, though we have many different reasons for being here.

And when you're not terrified of losing your life to terrorists or drug addicts.

I live in Chicago, so I'm well aware that either of those is a possibility. (Much more so than for the suburbanites and ruralites big into Fox News -- really, do you think Osama bin Laden is obsessed with hitting the Wal-Mart in Weaseltit, Tennessee or River Park Forest Estate Townhomes, Minnesota? No.] I've never been involved with gangs or serious crime but I still had lost three friends to murder before I was 25 years old. (One killed in a fight by her boyfriend, one raped and killed by a stranger, one hit by a stray bullet while waiting for a bus on a Sunday afternoon).

It makes me violently, red-eyed, blazingly angry at murderers of all kinds. It certainly does not make me inclined to give murderers who do it in the name of "freedom on the march" a free pass. Much less so, in fact -- every single fucking time a life is lost, I ask WHY and the reason rarely satisfies.

I grew up lower-middle-class in Appalachia. My parents both had government jobs, and fortunately socked most of their money away in the 70s and 80s, or it would a hell of a lot worse for us. I grew up WITH a lot of the Bush voters of today. (They're some of the same people who were beating me up because my family didn't go to church). Some of them are still friends in some respect, so I know what you mean about the desire to not write them off. But I think that desire is wishful thinking. A lot of them ARE racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, and think people who are different from them in some way are like two-dimensional beings in a video game--OK to kill because they have no souls and aren't real. And have no desire to change. And I also know that many of these people come from the middle class and the upper class as well.

I also know that some of the very kindest, wisest, smartest, most accepting people I've ever known have been working-class or poor people in the "red" states. They didn't go to college. They might've never left their hometown. But they are self-educated and they have a sense of basic human decency. They weep for Katrina victims and Iraqi children and parents who lost a child in war and the lady down the road who has cancer and no insurance, and they know damn well this shit doesn't HAVE to happen. My mom was a volunteer for the Kerry campaign in our pretty poor, rural, and red county. She met a lot of them.

So don't be saying it's a matter of "social class." Because there are people in ALL classes who have the soul and the brains to know that Bush is wrong, and it's very deeply insulting and patronizing to "uneducated" or "poor" or "rural" or whoever-the-fuck-you-mean-to-imply otherwise. And to people here, who have experiences you don't know about and can't presume.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to rant or to flame.. But I couldn't help but object to your tone. I've spent times with people of LOTS of different classes...and the basic mental and emotional deficiencies that make possible embracing the Bush regime even at this late date have nothing to do with class. Trust me on this one.

[nolabels]

57. Are you sure your mechanic isn't just a glorified parts changer?

I have been a truck mechanic for many years and have found the guy who wants give you the exact answer to your problem who he knows nothing about also is that guy who mostly has more opinion than facts in his quiver of arrows that he wants to shoot at you.

Like I did my time in the military and think it was time well spent. My brother-in-law went for three tours in Nam and never came back bitter. The people who find a need to blame others who might have had nothing to do with the way things are have a lot in common with the bigots themselves. Though my opinion of Kerry is neutral, the bumper stickers tell us a lot more about the guy who drives the car than it does about Kerry. The idea of blame is also a crutch, it serves to get the complainer attention to themselves, a fix if you will. You, yourself are proof that is the case and mostly how it works

[ElboRuum]

20. I disagree a little...

But as the consequences of this regime have unfolded since the beginning of Bush’s second term, and as he slips into below 30% approval territory, I have come to accept that the people who still support him and defend his policies are just downright stupid.

While I'm sure that for the most part that this is true, I believe a not insignificant portion of the people who think Bush is doing a good job are, indeed, irretrievably stupid. What about the rest?

Some actually believe that PNAC is the new "manifest destiny." We might call them auxilliary members... boosters, if you will. They don't know the details of the PNAC manifesto, not having read it and all, but have, for the longest time supported it. These people have one or more of the following traits which may have actually predated PNACs formalization:

1. Contempt for progressive policies which do not directly benefit the business sector
2. Order is typically more important to them than freedom
3. War, to them, is underrated as a political tool and should be exercised more, not less, so long as it's someone else doing the dying
4. The ends justify the means, and the only important resultant end is "winning" (whatever winning may actually mean at that moment), regardless the means by which it is achieved.

Others, I'm sure, harbor the same prejudices they always have, and have gravitated toward Republicanism simply because it is the last place where they are, probably not accepted fully, but tolerated if only for the votes:

1. Viewing liberalism as anti-macho, weak, and "feminine"
2. Distrust/contempt for the concept of the United States as one country among many
3. Having intolerant, hypertraditionalist social prejudices, usually couched in religious belief, but sometimes just nakedly exposed
4. Generally view the rest of the world as stupid, impractical, culturally weird, and rife with suspicious intent
5. Have an abiding contempt for "big government" and taxation, however, only associate those traits with progressive policy, and are easily bribed with small amounts of compensation to agree with regressive policy even though they are realistically taxed more in the long run.

One could say that all of these people are "stupid" because they harbor illogic, selfishness, and self-mutilation in these views to the degree that they might even work against their own ends. But to a lot of people, the character... the spirit, if you will... of the country is more important to them than the realistic workability of the day to day operation. This American personification is all important to how they feel about their country, and often that view is narrow and self-resembling. One might say that 29% of America identifies with George the Simpleton or Dick Vader.

Of course, if statistics are any indicator, it is possible that that 29% of the population is at least one standard deviation below the intellectual mean, and as such can't think their way out of this political paper bag, confirming your suspicions.

[rman]

21. I go with deception induced stupidity

It's domestic psychological warfare, plain and simple.

[0007]

24. A fool believes that Tim Russert is as genuine as Hulk Hogan

and Newt is a wonderful guy that should be president someday.

[OnyxCollie]

25. Not only stupid or willfully ignorant, but blinded by faith.

The 29% might consider Bushco a theocracy incapable of any wrongdoing. If these people believe the earth is 6,000 years old and humans and dinosaurs lived together, do you think they will believe that bush, God's chosen representative to lead the US, is committing war crimes, depleting the treasury for corporate interests, spying on Americans, and ruining the environment?

I, personally, believe organized religion is a control on human behavior. If one feels they need that structure to lead a healthy, happy life, good for them. I object, however, when one's singular faith becomes my representative government. If they choose to ignore facts about how the government is fucking up for attitudes or opinions about how bush is a "good Christian", they need to get their false-idol worshipping asses the fuck out of our way so we can impeach this motherfucker already.

[The Wizard]

26. April first is election day

in the land of Bush-Davidians.
Bush could have sex with a male dog on TV and they'd say Clinton's pecker made him do its; some kind of mystery spell at work.
Essentially they're bigots. Nixon's Southern strategy had an underlying message cloaked in code. When they said "law and order" they meant they were the ones to keep the minorities in their place. A bigot by any other name still stinks. And for my next nonsequiter: The Book of Revelation is not sound foreign policy. Don't blame me, I voted for McGovern.
Our pResident is a nut.
Don't waste any of your valuable time talking to Bush-Davidians. It's like pissing into the wind. If anything, shake your head and say you're sorry.

[Prophet 451]

28. Not stupidity exactly...

I actually don't think it's stupidity (at least, not for the most part). It's more like a cult of personality surrounding this administration: The administration said it, I believe it, that settles it! It's a kind of thinking where words mean whatever one wants them to mean, GW is the best president in recent history (there are people who genuinely believe this), Clinton did nothing worthwhile (there are even more who believe that), Reagan was the second coming and GW is his appointed emissary.

I'm using religious terminology because that's the closest match now. It's got nothing to do with logic or policies anymore, just blind adherance to whatever the company line is. And tribalism, it's a system of belief which hates liberalism not because of any actual difference of opinion but purely because it's liberal. It's got about as much to do with differences in policy as the Blood and Crips ("Why do you hate them?", "Because they wear blue"). You can find a good example of the mindset at this blog: http://stolenthunder.blogspot.com/

I swear, in about ten years, you're going to have a bona-fide religion worshipping Reagan who sent his appointed prophet GW Bush and battles the evil forces of Clinton (taking roughly the same position as the devil traditionally does) and his liberals. Why not? They think of us as demons already.

[Jack Rabbit]

29. Even a year and a half ago, I regarded Bush voters as misinformed

If they weren't misinformed, they were just cynical and thought that politicians have a virtual right to tell lies, unless they are Democrats lying about their sex lives.

Polling data in 2004 showed that many Americans still believed some of the horsepucky about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq or Saddam's ties to Osama. Moreover, these polls also showed that there was a correlation between belief in nonsense that had already been refuted twelve ways to Sunday and voting for Bush.

If these people deserve any slack, it is because the corporate-owned US mainstream media did such an abysmal job of informing the US public of the facts for so long. During the run up to the war, if one got his news from CNN or The New York Times, where one could read Judy Miller's front page fiction about Saddam biochemical arsenal, one was as misinformed as any regular FoxNews viewer. The MSM didn't even mention any reason to suppose that Bush or his people might not be telling the truth about Iraq.

Yet, one could go to alternative media and the foreign press on the web and see that Scott Ritter was challenging Mr. Bush's assertions about Iraq's weapons and read about the manipulation of intelligence in the Pentagon. This information was available, but one had to look for it. Nevertheless, those of us who did marched against the war in the weeks before the first missiles were fired over Baghdad not as knee-jerk pacifists but as informed citizens. We knew we were being deceived.

In addition to the MSM, we were betrayed by our own representatives in Congress. Why did these people authorize Bush to take action based on such outrageous lies? The information was available to us to judge them lies, it was certainly available to them. Supposedly, we pay our representatives in a putative representative democracy to be better informed. Well, they weren't, or at didn't act like they were.

In my view, they and the mainstream journalists who were too lazy to check their neoconservative sources are worse than the people who voted for Bush.

[thoughttheater]

31. Rove & Bush: Catching The Big One

To read an analysis on what appears to be Republican infighting but is more likely part of a larger Karl Rove campaign strategy...a strategy singularly focused on achieving a 51% voting contingency...link here:


www.thoughttheater.com

[flashsmith]

32. Fox News

Some may be stupid, but I think most are ignorant. Whenever I discuss one of the Republican scandals du jour and someone looks at me like a deer in headlights, I always ask what news channel they watch. It's invariably Fox. If someone gets 100% of their news from Fox, they have absolutely no idea that there are serious problems with this country. I think Fox employs mind control experts, hypnotists, or is using subliminal programming to achieve such a high correlation between viewers and Bush supporters. Couple this with the MSM blackout on nearly all news unfavorable to Bush and you can understand the widespread ignorance. I sincerely think that if you don't get your news off the web, you aren't getting any news at all. People who are technology impaired, which would include stupid people, people who can't read, people who can't afford a computer, and people too old to bother learning computers, would be force to resort to TV and MSM for news where they are fed sanitized, homogenized, pasteurized, and filtered information.

[sofa king]

35. Welcome to DU, flashsmith!

You make a sound and thoughtful argument. Earlier today in another thread, I went in the entirely opposite direction and used hyperbole and sweeping generalization. Not intellectually honest, but damn it sure felt good. Here's part of what I said earlier:
__________

...One of the greatest achievements of the Republican Party was the rediscovery of the idea that a combination of racism, bigotry, fear, greed, and envy was a powerful elixir which motivated a vast pool of stupid people who otherwise wouldn't be inclined to remember to vote on election day.

But a still more impressive achievement of the Bush Administration is the improbable feat of fucking up so bad that even the idiots notice. That's what they're doing right now: ruining the lives of people, one daft American at a time, so spectacularly that even they (ed: "they" the stupid people, not the Bush Administration) are changing their small minds. When you're burning off supporters who don't even really know why they supported you in the first place, you are truly and undenyably worthy of the monicker "Worst President Ever."

Congratulations, Mr. President.
____________

That was fun to say, but the truth of the matter is undoubtedly better contained within your thoughts than my own. I must remind myself--and keep reminding myself--that these horribly misguided people are my fellow countrymen whose welfare I care deeply about.

I don't want to deceive these people into not voting. I want win them over, for their own good as well as my own. But they're so fucking stupid--excuse me. But they're so ahem, difficult to reach that I find it a daunting task.

[Mynameissalvatore]

33. Are they stupid?

Or have they just decided that they don't care how corrupt or how incompetent the administration is as long as gay people can't get married, abortion will soon be outlawed and they get the promise of a tax cut, they will support them. I wish just one of these people, many of whom are in my family, would just admit that. They can't possibly justify the actions of this government any other way just as Nancegreggs said. It defies all logic. I would have the tiniest smidgen of respect for one of these supporters if they would just admit this.

[Lady Effingbroke]

34. You just described my mother.

:(

A two-time * voter, she told me yesterday that * was "extremely intelligent" and that "the media needed to be squashed" as they were "out of control" and "too liberal", then laughed when I stated that the US government was complicit in 9/11.

She then proceeded to bury her head in the lobotomy box for another can't-miss episode of "Desperate Housewives". :eyes:

I cannot tolerate the willful ignorance swirling in the backwash.

Another sterling post, Nance. K&R!

[NanceGreggs]

36. Hi, everyone!

I've been working all day, so I didn't have an opportunity to weigh-in on my own thread, and defend (if necessary) my position.

Firstly, there has been a lot of discussion about people being ignorant rather than stupid, which is valid. However, in this context, keeping one's self deliberately ignorant of the facts, or of dissenting points of view, is a form of stupidity. If you ensure that you are never exposed to anything that might cause you to question what you hold to be true, that shows a lack of intellect in and of itself.

The biggest bone of contention for me is the pseudo-Christians who continue to support an administration whose policies go against EVERYTHING they have allegedly held as Christian belief up until now. A president who embraces torture, or who guts funding to social programs aimed at assisting the poor or the sick to profit the wealthy, goes against everything Christ ever taught. Intelligent people, or even people with a modicum of common sense, would not allow their way of thinking to become so malleable as to accept the EXACT OPPOSITE of their former beliefs to be consistent with their faith.

And I don't buy the argument that these people DON'T KNOW what's going on. They see people in their own communities whose jobs have been outsourced, or who have lost their access to expensive life-saving medication through Bush's policies. And the White House itself is now steering away from the 'Success in Iraq' bullshit, so those who still maintain that we're doing fine there are stupider than most.

Intelligent people ask questions. Intelligent people do not sit in front of FOX-News to the exclusion of other news sources, and blindly accept that everything in the country is going along swimmingly, without ever switching the channel to see if another news source has something different to say.

People with common sense do not hear their dearly-held leaders and their spokespeople DENY the allegations about Abu Ghraib and Gitmo without wondering what those allegations are, and looking further to find out what's behind them.

I absolutely adored Clinton during his presidency. But if I heard him constantly denying that he was torturing people, or holding prisoners without access to legal representation, I would have sought out whatever information I could find on the topic instead of turning the sound down on the TV every time the subject was raised. That is the difference, IMHO, between being a thinking person and an idiot.

As I pointed out, I cut these Bush-supporters a lot of slack in the early days. But when the allegations of spying on Americans, signing statements, torture, secret prisons, taxpayers' money "gone missing" -- the list is endless -- are cropping up on a minute-to-minute basis, the intelligent person starts thinking that maybe there's more going on here than what Limbaugh or O'Reilly have to say.

Some Bushites are, indeed, ignorant of the facts. But being willfully ignorant is not something a thinking person does; it is what a truly stupid person does.

It is one thing to have incredible faith in your local weatherman, even though he doens't have a perfect track record. But when he's blabbering about how the sun is shining in your neighbourhood and you're watching a downpour outside of your own window, to insist that he's got it right and you've got it wrong is just plain DUMB.

[twaddler01]

37. Sad but true, kicked

:kick:

[Conker]

39. "For a long time, I cut my fellow citizens who voted for Bush a lot of..

slack." (Nancy Greggs).I never cut those citizens slack.I cannot believe anyone can be so ignorant to vote for Bush.It is their fault he got elected in the first place.

[NanceGreggs]

40. I have to disagree with that.

Anyone, intelligent or otherwise, can be honestly misled. I am sure there isn't anyone on this thread - or anywhere in the country, for that matter -- who has never mis-judged someone's character or motives, or who have ever misplaced their trust in someone or something that proved to be deceitful in the long-run.

Bush's poll numbers have dropped in accorandance with thinking people not merely listening to what he says, but looking behind the words and at consequences of his actions.

[OnyxCollie]

42. I agree with you.

I started a thread over a month ago about how I dealt with a bush supporter who had removed a bush bumpersticker from his car. I was annoyed to see the sticker every time I passed the car in the garage. I had thought of defacing it so the person would remove it, but felt that was wrong and wouldn't change their opinion anyway. Probably only reinforce it. I didn't know this person, but I hated them for supporting bush. So, right after the leaker-in-chief thing came out, the bumpersticker was removed. They chose to do it on their own. I was so relieved to see this person whom I did not know, but whom I disliked for supporting bush, remove their support. I left a note and I forgave them. I no longer held anger against them, because they came to the conclusion to remove their support for a fascist dictatorship that was supposed to represent all American citizens. People on this board freaked out, accused me of trespassing, vandalization, and stalking. Some called me a coward for not leaving my name and phone number. (This was right at the time Michelle Malkin posted those student's phone numbers. Give my phone number to even a former bush supporter? Fuck that. I was taking enought shit from a "friendly" audience.)

I ascribe to the liberal view of politics, that people are generally good and try to be infinitely perfectible. However, it should be no surprise that some people are not good and will try to take advantage of others. (What's that Voltaire quote? "Those who will believe absurdities, will continue to commit atrocities." Something like that. And then there's that great Goering quote about the common people being led to war. I read that recently in a poli-sci class. Caused quite an uproar among the Kool-Aid drinkers.) Do I think bush supporters are "evil"? No, but I do think they are ignorant, naive, gullible, stupid, apathetic, complacent, self-centered, and greedy. Is it any surprise the way the administration would explain terrorism as if they were talking to a five-year-old? Do these people really "support" torture, wars of aggression, and unreasonable searches and seizures? Probably not on their face, but if you convince them it's for their safety and only the government can protect them from all the "very bad men" that "hate us for our freedoms", they can be persuaded. For a while, anyway. That's where I think these people are now. Every day, something bad about bushco comes out. Every day. I think it's hard for these people to ignore that. I also think this "self-awareness", that the government isn't going to do shit for you and you're on your own, is a pretty steep obstacle. People fear the state of nature. Kinda like tellling someone God doesn't exist or UFO's are natural phenomena. Some people are going to believe it regardless, because they want it to be true. They need it to be true.

[treestar]

52. They are like children and their denial is the same as children

experience if they find out their parents are doing something wrong. Even child abusers will get some amount of defense from their children who are sort of going on their feeling that no one else will take care of them.

[Demeter]

47. PNACio ---I LOVE It!

That is creative and encompassing, the best monicker ever for Bush, who wants to be a real guy, but isn't. I hate to think who would qualify as the Blue Fairy.

[NanceGreggs]

49. PNACio ... so creative, so encompassing ...

... so NOT something I can take credit for, alas!

I first came across that name on another message board years ago. I've seen it a few times since, but it never really caught on like $%&%$@, or the other names people call the Idiot!

[nolabels]

53. Are you you sure you didn't mean 'Bum Shot Mountain, MT US'

MapQuest
http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?formtype=address&addtohistory=&address=&city=Bum%20Shot%20Mountain&state=MT&zipcode=&country=US&location=BrdPArCwohO41cxTMZ526N%2bYdqeaZjbWVOweSzeGBSfGIxV%2bcbxY%2fnZJa2rA4B0JwyAsx%2fDXRX0c8UJH88b3idq8sEMAD%2fPEEmwHbQykZNo%3d&ambiguity=1

I have tried to investigate the phenomena before with unclear results. My conclusion is they try to believe in a combination, whatever is easier and whatever seems to promise the best deal (no matter how big the lie). The big thing you might notice is a lot of them are bandwagoneers, a good percentage falls off as soon as they start to see the ball roll the other way.