Okay..Facing Reality: Scenario..Black Ops Fire Missile from Fishing Boat

[KoKo]

in Persion Gulf at US Naval Carrier.

Reports come in that it was a small "fishing boat" from Iran who did the firing and that it was a small Missile to Air fired rocket that did the damage. MSNBC and CNN report:

"BREAKING NEWS" US NAVY VESSEL FIRED UPON....SOME TROOPS INJURED AND SOME SUSPECTED DEAD FROM ATTACK! IRANIAN DISSIDENTS IMPLICATED

This comes in and is all over the airwaves....It's covered as BREAKING and reports keep coming in that more and more of our troops have been injured or are dying from this attack. The reports come in all night and reporters scramble to to keep up with it...getting reports from State Department and Pentagon as to what happened.

What do we Democrats do? :shrug:

[northzax]

1. this is facing reality?

who are you, John Le Carre?

[KoKo]

8. Instead of attacking just go with the flow of the scenario...What would

YOU feel or DO about this....

It's an exercise in figuring how we Dems would react.....:shrug:

[northzax]

35. well, how do we know

who shot the missile?

[KoKo]

37. the "MEDIA" will tell us who they "suspect" shot the missile....

and what do we do then? :shrug:

[northzax]

40. what if the batshit crazy people

running Iran (and they are batshit crazy like it or not) actually do shoot the missile? then what? or do you figure the most likely option is not the insane mullahs doing something, but the US Navy shooting at one of their own ships?

[davhill]

2. Pass the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution

Oops, wrong gulf.

[babylonsister]

3. You're just a ray of sunshine!

I could very easily see that scenario, and don't have a clue how to combat the lies being shoved down Americans' throats. Since it's been happening for 5 years and no one has a handle on it, I dunno.

[KoKo]

11. PLEASE THINK! We need to know how WE AS DEMS...would Deal...

I know I'm setting up what some of you think might be fantasy...but DU'er Benburch has had two current posts on hearing "Little Birds" telling him something like this is "possible."

With what the Repugs have done to us already..shouldn't we be preparing for any scenario?

Why would this one not be an "answer to Bush/NeoCon Prayers? It would surely wipe out all the stuff about "Missing" Iraq WMD...and give a BIG OKAY to Bush's theory that "We are in an ENDLESS WAR against the TERRAISTS WHO WANT TO DESTROY OUR FREEDOMS!"

This would sure put an END to any doubts "some wavering Americans" have about threats to Americans from "ISLAMIC TERRORISTS ...WHO WANT TO DESTROY OUR FREEDOMS."

It would SHUT DOWN most QUESTIONS AND INVESTIGATION.. RALLY ROUND THE FLAG, BUDDY...RALLY ROUND THE FLAG. :shrug:

I know this is DARK...but I've lived through DARK/DEVIOUSNESS since SELECTION 2000!... I've always had hope but at every turn they best us...the Repugs....

[babylonsister]

12. Realistically, there's not much we on DU can do. The question

is, are our Dem reps thinking about this possible scenario, or any for that matter? I know we all would view any untoward attack with skepticism and suspicion.

[KoKo]

36. I know....it's sad that there's not much we on DU can do...but a mental

excercise..I thought...might help us cope with it "IF" or "Whenever" it comes.....or not.

I have this "thingy" about being prepared for really bad news since Bush Usurped the Presidency.... So I go into that "Preparedness state of mind...of panic..sometimes.

[The Magistrate]

14. Part Of The Problem, Ma'am

Is that your scenario requires an attack contrived by U.S. government agency, at whatever remove, that causes real damage to U.S. military forces.

Though doubtless someone will trot out the unexecuted plans of Northwoods,
there is no precedent whatever in our history for such an attack. Neither the Gulf of Tonkin incident, nor the pretext for the Mexican War, were anything like that: both were instances in which U.S. forces were dangled before an enemy or potential enemy, who in fact did engage, and the engagement was then greatly exaggerated in initial reports.

[KoKo]

16. Could you conceive of such a "scenario?" though....

That would be my question. AND...I need you to know that I discounted all the reports that Bush would "try something" to provoke Iran for many posts here on DU..

But, today I "Caved" and thought it important to "postulate" on a "What If?" scenario. How would WE as Dems React? How would our Elected Dems REACT?

Is this not an exercise that's worth doing? :shrug:

[The Magistrate]

17. Such An Attack By Iranian Or Jihadist Elements, Ma'am

Would not much surprise me: it would be pretty foolish for the former, but a shrewd blow for the latter.

The idea that an effective attack on a U.S. warship would be carried out by agency of the U.S. government is absurd.

[KoKo]

19. Magistrate! DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THIS?

Given what we've seen with the NeoCon's drumming up the war in Iraq with NO WMD found?

Given that we know there are BUSH BLACK OP'S Running our CIA AND FBI?

WHA? Can you please give me a reason to understand your post? :eyes:

[The Magistrate]

22. Really Believe What, Ma'am?

Show me an instance in hostory when forces directly controlled by or hired by a U.S. government agency have effectively attacked a U.S. military unit.

Cold blooded experiments like mass tests of battlefield radiation fall short of that standard, and so do "blue-sky" proposals such as Northwoods. Mere lying about the reasons for going to war is not even in the ball-park: most wars have involved a good deal of mendacity to get rolling.

[KoKo]

25. Magistrate! There have been so many posts on DU in these past 5 years

documenting what you are asking me to post..that I beg off ...because I know as intellgent as you are ...you are only "baiting me" to scramble for posts to defend my position.

And, if I did go through voluminous archives to document what I say this post would be "off to archives" and no one would be left to read it.

Therefore "methinks" you are throwing me a "straw dog" or maybe a "red herring" to get me to scrabble around on a post that will be dead before the night is over.

Please...tell me WHAT YOU BELIEVE will STOP THE BUSHIES from doing what my post laid out?

What? What DO YOU THINK? WHY COULD THIS "NOT HAPPEN?" :shrug:

[The Magistrate]

27. No Post Has Documented It, Ma'am

A number of baseless claims without the slightest backing by real evidence have been made. That is all.

[KoKo]

28. My post was originally about a "Mental Exercise" a "What IF?"

If CNN had it on their current "Breaking News" I would have posted it with a LINK in DU "Latest Breaking Forum."

Magistrate...you are playing games with me...I posted an honest "intellectual exercise" asking "what we Dems would do" and you are dogging me...asking me for a LINK?

Much as I love you...jeeze...aren't you as a "Mod" kind of inserting yourself in a "negative way?"

:shrug:

[The Magistrate]

29. Asking You For A Link, Ma'am, Is The Farthest Thing From My Mind

As you say, you proposed a thought experiment. The first thought that occured to me was: is this a thing that has a reasonable prospect of occurance? What you asked any who read this to think about, namely, an attack on a U.S. warship contrived by U.S. government agency, does not seem a reasonable prospect to me, though an attack on a U.S. warship by some hostile agency does seem a possibility, and any such occurence would doubtless be trurned to tremendous propaganda advantage by a war party. Claims from the left it was "really" done by the U.S. itself would only strengthen the hand of the war party, and wholly discredit in the eyes of the people anyone who made it.

[KoKo]

30. Then I would ask YOU...how is this scenario "Unrealistic" which gets to

the "heart" of my post in one "side path." In that if what I posted was "unreasonable or a fantasy" what arguments can "cogent DU'ers" give me to disuade me from my "scenario?"

I'm still looking for something other that "red herrings" and "intimidation?"

:shrug: LOOKING FOR A GREAT ARGUMENT AGAINST WHAT I SAID!!!! IOWD's...

[The Magistrate]

31. There Does Not Really Seem, Ma'am

Any point to repeating my position yet again with additional filligrees: the thing you invite us to think about will not occur, and therefore there is little point to thinking further about it.

"I'm going home now. Somebody bring me some frogs and some bourbon."

[KoKo]

34. Well...some Nacho's and Cheese...we all need some Fun.....

I'm not getting much lately...:D or :-( depending on how "rueful one is" but...I still don't get the hell why you keep asking me to explain what I'm posting as a "fantasy scenario" thrown out for "Discussion" as to what Dems would do..

But...enjoy the break ...FGS! We could all use one whichever and however we find it....

:toast: and "crack a bottle for ME, TOO!" sheesh..there's not much fun out there anymore...but it's good to contemplate there being some such fun somewhere.

[gimama]

4. 8 Carriers left Port yesterday

on the cnn,they were headed for 'Persian Gulf', no word on how long their deployment is for,etc.
I am so ready for Mr.bush&cheney IMPEACHMENT.

[dusmcj]

5. send $5 to that guy who videotapes Bilderburg meetings. nt

[Selatius]

6. I'm not seeing this on the CNN website n/t

[KoKo]

21. Ahhh...you could not take the time to read my post about this past Subject

Line...or you just couldn't get the "mental exercise?

sad..

[Selatius]

38. Well, that kind of condescension won't win you any awards.

Pardon me for skimming your thread.

[The Magistrate]

7. This Is Not A News Report, Then, Ma'am?

Why do you think a mocked up report would implicate Iranian dissidents? That would not be conducive to procuring support for an attack: if the thing is dummied up, it will be either Iranian Revolutionary Guard or Al Queda based in an Iranian port blamed.

The problem, of course, is that a genuine attack on these lines, by Iranian Revolutionary Guards, or jihadist elements operating out of any Gulf Port, is quite possible. It is quite possible to install concealed on a dhow a medium sized anti-tank missile that would have a tremendous effect on a warship,a nd could be fired at short range by men unconcerned with their own survival.

[KoKo]

15. I think what you say refines what could happen beyond my post....

and quoting you they could have even further verification that would "pass muster" with their controlled CIA/FBI/and Homeland Security giving credence to this...what I quote from you:

QUOTE: "Iranian Revolutionary Guard or Al Queda based in an Iranian port blamed."

For most Americans they would question the "verification" after the "headline" methinks.

It could anything that would give "credence" to wipe out their "reasons for Invading Iraq." :shrug:

Is that what you asked?

[leftchick]

9. should do or will do?

I think we all know how our patriotic Democrats in Congress will respond. They will stand beind the pretzeldent, what else?

[KoKo]

23. I saw a great "show of force" by our Dems TODAY on C-Span where

they Pushed so hard for TOTAL Lobby Reform! We BLAME OUR DEMS when we should BLAME OUR MEDIA WHORES....

I don't think Dems would cave on this but I think that "Progressive Dems" often are betrayed by the 8-14 votes of those like Lieberman/Bayh, etc...who always are the "swing vote to the left."

As a "Progressive Dem" I would, of course say they are DINO's (Democrats in Name Only) others might disagree with that description...but it's always the same group that keeps our MINORITY a "MINORITY!!!"

And...that's the truth of it...and why so many of us Dems are so ANGRY!!!

[tocqueville]

10. here is your answer : Hillary says : Bush "you are a pussy"

Not that he needs to worry about that. Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, widely seen as the front-runner for the 2008 Democratic presidential nomination, accused the Bush administration in January of not taking the threat of a nuclear Iran seriously enough, criticized the administration for allowing European nations to take the lead in pursuing a diplomatic solution, and insisted that the administration should make it clear that military options were being actively considered.

Similarly, Democratic Senator Evan Bayh, another likely contender for the Democratic presidential nomination, accused the Bush administration of "ignoring and then largely deferring management of this crisis to the Europeans". Taking the diplomatic route, according to Bayh, "has certainly been damaging to our national security".

Despite the hostility of these two Democratic senators toward diplomatic means of resolving the crisis and the similarity of their rhetoric to the false claims they made prior to the 2003 invasion of Iraq that Saddam Hussein's government was a threat to global security and that diplomatic solutions were impossible, both Clinton and Bayh are widely respected by their fellow Democrats as leaders on security policy.

Indeed, in May 2004, the US House of Representatives passed a resolution, with only three dissenting votes, calling on the Bush administration to "use all appropriate means" - presumably including military force - to "prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons".

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HE04Ak04.html

[KoKo]

18. What you say is an IMPORTANT POST for what SOME DEMS would do...

I guess that "me" being sort of far left on "International Issues" would have a quibble with the Hillary/Lieberman/War Hawk Wing of the Party.

I protested BEFORE THE IRAQ INVASION... That qualifies me as "Fringie Left" I guess..even though...I'm very Middle on some issues.

Sad...it's come to this...:-(

[tocqueville]

24. Of course not ALL DEMS would react that way...

but I think that the Asia Times report is pointing out the dilemma the party is in...

[KoKo]

39. We are kinda caught between "Iraq" and a "Hard Place" for sure...

these days... And, that's why I posted. I just wondered how we as Dems with Eleciton 06 coming up would react if Bushies PULLED a SURPRISE...

I thought about it and saw the headlines in the back of my mind and thought...THEY WILL WIN AMERICA BACK...because we will be so AFRAID...

That's what worries me...but I'm sure to hell not getting much discussion on this post about it.....:-(

[madrchsod]

13. follow the money

[KoKo]

20. I'm thrilled that sites like Josh Marshall's "Muckraker" and others are ON

THIS!

It's amazing ...but damn it to hell...ain't it always about: "FOLLOW THE MONEY" Arms, K-Street, PAC's, Influence, Bills through Congress...all of it.

FOLLOW THE DAMNED MONEY....:puke: Dreadful.

[KoKo]

26. Getting BACK to my OP ...How the Hell would our Dems REACT to this

Scenario. Shouldn't we be wondering THIS QUESTION ...rather than side tracking with questioning the "OP" and getting "Off Subject?

What the HELL would we Dems do FACED WITH AN AIRCRAFT ATTACK by a supposed IRANIAN FISHING BOAT with "Surface to Air Missile?"

:shrug: :eyes: Jeeze...how plain do I have to make this.............

[KoKo]

32. DU'er "Benburch" has a post on this with a "track back" from this post

which lays out the very scenario I'm postulating about. I could don my :tinfoilhat: about this...but other stuff I've read today makes me think that this might be much more serious than we think.

Here's the DU Link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1083036

[KoKo]

33. Couldn't THIS be a "Perfect Storm" for Repugs for 06? MoWar...Mo War?

Drum Beat the hell outta it...and make the "average American" FORGET the MISSING WMD with IRAQ?

Why NOT the "Perfect Storm?"

"US NAVAL SHIP ATTACKED WITH SURFACE TO AIR IN PERSION GULF...IRANIAN DISSIDENTS SUSPECTED IN ATTACK!" Reports are: "CASUALTIES BUT NO REPORTS OF DEATH BUT PENTAGON IS INVESTIGATING."

[KoKo]

41. Any other views on this? n/t

[DemoTex]

42. I've been warning of a "false flag" operation for weeks.

False flag operations are covert operations conducted by governments, corporations, or other organizations, which are designed to appear as if they are being carried out by other entities. The name is derived from the military concept of flying false colors; that is, flying the flag of a country other than your own. Terrorist attacks may sometimes be in fact false flag operations, as in the Italian strategy of tension in which several bombings, attributed to far-left organizations, were in fact carried on by far-right organizations cooperating with the Italian secret services. Elsewhere in Europe, the Mouvement d'Action et Défense Masada, supposedly a Zionist group, was really a neo-fascist terrorist group which hoped to increase tension between Arabs and Jews in France.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag

A false flag operation could easily trigger WWIII. The situation in the ME is ripe for false flag, with a host of potential players. Including Halliburton.