Dean says religious groups must decide about being tax-exempt....

[madfloridian]

or being involved in politics. Good summary of the breakfast with the CS monitor today.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0420/p03s03-usmb.html

On the biggest issues in the 2006 election:

"The biggest issues of the election are character issues.... They are going to go to the president's and the Republicans' trustworthiness and honesty and their competence. And they are going to lose big on both those issues. After that we get to Iraq, we get to the economy, we get to healthcare."

On the Democrats' policy on Iraq:

"There is a consensus that we cannot continue to have a permanent commitment to a failed strategy.... One, we are going to support our troops and two, you are going to see a ... desire to resolve the situation ... by turning this over to the Iraqis and bringing our folks home. The only thing that is left up to some modest differences is what the timetable is."

And I am so glad to see this issue being addressed finally. Very clearly said.

On religion and politics:

"The religious community has to decide whether they want to be tax exempt or involved in politics."

Keep talking about that subject of religion and politics. That is what all our Democrats need to do.

[northofdenali]

1. Personally, I don't think they should even have to be involved

in politics as such. Just handing out "suggested" ballots or the preacher showing up at a political rally for a candidate should do it. Bang - you're taxed. And not like the corporations. I think, since churches are such believers in the tithe, they, too, should have to provide Caesar his 10%.

Go, Dr. Dean!!

[calimary]

2. OMG! It's about time!!!

DAYUM, that Dr. Dean sure can hit 'em out of the ballpark!

It's about time!!!

I am WHOLEHEARTEDLY in favor of this! Besides, we need the money!

And I'm a life-long Catholic.

[burythehatchet]

20. I'm certainly not surprised that the good doctor

is the first to touch this third rail issue. Framing the debate, as usual. Well done.

[madfloridian]

3. Ok, look what PA pastors are doing...Santorum involved.

Time for us to speak out loudly about this.

http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/news/local/14285061.htm

John Baer | The religious right shows political mightPENNSYLVANIA'S religious right is pumping up its political power in ways that are drawing national attention and could lead to short- and long-term blessings for the Republican Party.

It also could set the stage for an '08 color change here, turning Pennsylvania from Democratic "blue" (in the last four presidential elections) to bright Republican "red."

A new organization, Pennsylvania Pastors Network, is hiring 10 political field directors to manage a voter-registration drive starting in August to bring out more members of evangelical churches this fall.

"If we are successful, we will add to the rolls a significant number of conservative voters," says organizer Colin Hanna, "and that is our intention."

And Sanatorium, as T. Soprano refers to him....taking part.

The network's March meeting in Valley Forge featured a video message from GOP Sen. Rick Santorum and copies of Santorum's book, "It Takes a Family."

A lot of this is faith based money enabling the churches to be political. It really has to be addressed.

[madfloridian]

4. Baptist news: Churches don't violate IRS laws pushing marriage amendments.

I just did a search on "religious groups, tax-exempt" and there is a lot going on. This caught my eye because our local Southern Baptists teamed up with Catholics and other churches to try to get these amendments passed here.

Looks like the lawyers trained at the right wing law schools are getting into the act.

http://www.sbcbaptistpress.org/bpnews.asp?ID=23071

"PHOENIX (BP)--Churches can support proposed constitutional marriage amendments without any fear of losing their tax-exempt status, an attorney with a religious liberty organization says.

Seven states are scheduled to vote on marriage amendments this year, and conservatives in two others -- Arizona and Colorado -- are gathering signatures with the goal of being added to that list.

Gary McCaleb, senior counsel with the Christian legal group Alliance Defense Fund, said pastors can voice support for the amendments from the pulpit and churches can assist in petition drives without fear of reprisal from the Internal Revenue Service.

"In respect to their Internal Revenue Service tax exemption, they have a lot of liberty and leeway to support a ballot initiative," McCaleb told Baptist Press. "As long as what they do is an insubstantial amount of their total budget, they're pretty much free to do whatever they want in support or opposition to the ballot initiative."

Don't you think we need another opinion on issues like this?

[madfloridian]

5. The Moderate Voice has one word for that statement: Amen.

http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1145551273.shtml

Amen
by Justin Gardner
"The religious community has to decide whether they want to be tax exempt or involved in politics."
- DNC Chairman Howard Dean

[gratuitous]

6. And who will decide what is "involvement" in politics?

I mean, our teeny tiny congregation got together last Super Bowl Sunday and put together 746 soup packets for the hungry in our part of the county. That could be construed as a political comment on the efficacy of our local government's ability to provide services. Would we lose our tax exempt status for that?

We sent a couple of our members down to Honduras to help with hurricane relief and some other members on a CPT delegation to Chiapas. Part of their funding came from our congregation's miniscule budget, but aren't relief efforts and fact-finding sojourns political? Shouldn't we instead have waited for market forces to help the Hondurans flooded out of their homes, or just taken the word of the government for how things are in Mexico?

Our denomination also works with local, state and federal officials in counseling conscientious objectors to war. I know for a fact that would subject us to charges of politicization because peace and non-violence are antithetical to the American way of life.

Before we all jump on the bandwagon, I'd suggest we be a little more careful about what we're talking about.

[madfloridian]

8. I think we need to get this message out.

Churches have always done human things and caring things. But now they are preaching about things like the Iraq war from the pulpit. They are advocating supporting parties. They are preaching against women's rights and gays and abortion. They are joining together with Catholics to force through the marriage amendment in Florida.

They are supporting certain candidates, and many suspect the faith based initiative money might be playing a role.

I think if they are going to not pay taxes, then they need to stay out of politics. Taking care of human needs is not necessarily politics.

[gratuitous]

15. The law, as I currently understand it

The law now prohibits any tax exempt entities from endorsing a specific candidate. A lot of congregations skate very close to the edge of that prohibition with the voter guides and messages from the pulpit that "Our congregation supports issues X, Y and Z. Candidate Omega doesn't support those issues. Please keep this information in mind when you go to the polls on Tuesday."

And while "taking care of human needs" is not necessarily politics (I'll add some emphasis), who will decide when such an action is political? Registering voters (for another example) is a very political act, and was used by churches during the Civil Rights era as an overtly political statement against the oppressive power of the state as then constituted. Voter registration is being used now as a tool in furtherance of the same oppressive objectives we thought we'd beaten a generation ago. It's difficult to write a rule where one of these is okay, but the other is not, and depending on who writes the rule, they might just write it wrong. (That was confusing, but I think you know what I mean.)

I'll warrant that the present system is not perfect, but a blanket statement that churches should either give up their tax exemption or stay out of politics isn't a very realistic solution. I like that Dean's staking out this issue, because I think it needs to be addressed, but I'd appreciate a more concrete proposal.

[madfloridian]

16. Concrete is coming as more Democrats listen to him.

Most don't even care right now. It is called setting the pace and hoping some follow. Our churches here are so political they gave our pro-war yard signs. It is time.

[Solon]

10. Actually, the IRS have pretty clear rules laid out already...

OK, first, a Church nor its leaders may endorse a political candidate or a specific political party.
Actually, I believe thats the only rule, so your examples don't apply at all.

[gratuitous]

19. Right -- candidates and parties

And certainly churches that transgress in those areas should be subject to scrutiny. But if Dean's serious about churches being out of politics altogether, then feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, housing the homeless and visiting the sick and imprisoned could be construed as engaging in "political" acts. I'm guessing that's not what Dean's talking about, but making the blanket statement he did doesn't necessarily lead to that conclusion.

[ThomCat]

17. I don't think it's nearly that vague.

Voter guides, supporting candidates, opposing other candidates, telling congregations who to vote for...

These are the activities that should get churches taxed.

[Debs]

24. Its actually very simple

They cannot do PARTISAN politics. They can talk issues all they want. If they start touting either a candidate or party. BANG, its tax time

[SlipperySlope]

31. *bump*

[kentuck]

7. This is a very serious subject :

If the Democrats take back the House, perhaps they should pass some legislation that says if churches or tax-exempt organizations get involved in politics, they stand to risk their exemption. They could not be stopped from talking about one issue or another but if they endorsed any candidate from either Party, they could lose exemption. I think they could work something out on that, without interferring in their right to free speech?

[Solon]

11. They don't have to, the IRS already laid down the rules...

they just need to enforce it consistantly across the board. The Democrats could definately influence HOW it is enforced, but new laws aren't needed.

[AtomicKitten]

9. This administration allows them to have it both ways.

The IRS is for the most part only interested in investigating liberal organizations regarding their tax-exempt status.

[Stinky The Clown]

12. For any remaining Dean-doubters .......

The good doc has been on the job, working hard, speaking hard, and getting it done.

Little-mentioned fact: We have candidates in 431 of the 435 House races. That's a record.

Little-mentioned fact: We have paid staff in all 50 states.

Mentioned fact: Doctor Dean actually IS doing a heck of a job!

[sarcasmo]

13. All Churches should be taxed, IMHO. Way to go Howard.

[Duer 157099]

14. Next time any church people come to my door

(and they do alot), I'm going to play along with them, and then innocently ask them if their church ever gets involved in politics, and if they say yes then I'm going to say: Oh! I bet the IRS would love to know that, thank you, goodbye!

[C_U_L8R]

18. Why should churches be tax exempt?

They are business like any other... especially those mega churches

[madfloridian]

21. Oh, my...James Dobson and Cavuto on FOX to discuss Dean's remarks.

http://www.family.org/webextras/a0040188.cfm
"Dr. Dobson to Appear on 'Your World w/Neil Cavuto' Today
from family.org

Dr. James Dobson, founder and Chairman of the Board of Focus on the Family, is scheduled to appear today, April 20, on Fox News' "Your World w/Neil Cavuto."

Dr. Dobson and host Neil Cavuto are expected to discuss Howard Dean's recent comments stating that "the religious community should decide if they want to be tax-exempt or political."

"Your World w/Neil Cavuto" airs at 4 p.m. Eastern time on Fox News Channel. (The show is rebroadcast at 1 a.m. and 5 a.m. Eastern.) For more information, consult your local listings or visit the "Your World w/Neil Cavuto" Web site. "

What a lovely show that will be. I can just guess how fair they will be, can't you?

[joeprogressive]

22. We need to divide and conquer

All DU members should commit to visiting three churches during campaign season and record their activities in case they preach politics.

[WildEyedLiberal]

23. I have to say amen

It burns my ass to hear about some church basically all but telling their congregation to vote for Bush or go to hell. They should lose tax exempt status pronto. Good on Dean for saying it.

[madfloridian]

25. Newshounds on the 17 words by Dean...6 minutes of Dobson on Fox.

Defending his group against being involved. Good write-up at Newshounds.

http://www.newshounds.us/2006/04/21/fox_gives_radical_cleric_james_dobson_6_minutes_to_rebut_17_words_uttered_by_howard_dean.php

"On Thursday (April 20, 2006), the Christian Science Monitor published a very short, six paragraph Q & A with Howard Dean titled: The Monitor Breakfast - Howard Dean. In the interview, the Monitor asked Dean about "religion and politics." Dean gave a one sentence answer:

The religious community has to decide whether they want to be tax exempt or involved in politics.

Thursday afternoon, on Your World w/Neil Cavuto, in a segment titled, "Did Howard Dean Threaten the Entire Religious Community?" Fox gave radical cleric James Dobson six full minutes (here's a link to the video) to spin Dean's comment into the stratosphere and to claim that he doesn't get involved in politics. For visual effects, Fox went to a split screen and aired video and muted audio of the 2004 "Dean scream" and tossed in a graphic during Cavuto's introduction that read: "Unholy Threat?"

Messing with the ability of fundamentalist churches to preach to their congregations about voting Republican obviously scares the bejesus out of these theocrats."

I did a search, and several religious groups have responded passionately to those 17 words.

[noonwitch]

26. Just keep in mind that it works both ways-the civil rights' movement

started in churches. After all, he was the Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr.

Peace groups meet in and are endorsed by liberal churches. Liberal politicians campaign at churches, too. Dean should leave it alone.

I do think televangelists should have to pay taxes if their program content has more than 50 % of it's airtime dedicated to politics and fundraising. It's time mad Pat lost his tax exemption.

[lynne]

28. Agreed - This issue is a double-edged sword -

I seem to remember both Gore and Kerry speaking in churches before the elections. If Dean insists on pushing this, we will lose an important avenue to reaching many of our base constituents.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40595-2004Oct17.html
http://quest.cjonline.com/stories/102900/gen_churches.shtml

[madfloridian]

30. So you think we should let these right wing groups hold sway?

There needs to be a discussion. Churches are getting money from the government now for their faith based initiatives. Government money should not be going to churches, because then there might be some agenda setting going on.

There must be discussion, there must be a line drawn. Someone with nothing to lose must start the agenda....and Howard Dean at this point has nothing to lose by doing this.

There must be a line that when stepped over requires them to pay taxes, not be tax-exempt.

Remember when Jerry Falwell said this:

Falwell says evangelicals control GOP, Bush's fat

WASHINGTON – "The Rev. Jerry Falwell said yesterday that evangelical Christians, after nearly 25 years of increasing political activism, now control the Republican Party and the fate of President Bush in the November election.

The Republican Party does not have the head count to elect a president without the support of religious conservatives," Falwell said at an election training conference of the Christian Coalition"

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20040925/news_1n25christ.html

[SlipperySlope]

33. *bump*

[SlipperySlope]

32. *bump*

[Larkspur]

27. I think it's OK for churches to encourage voter registration as long as

they don't force their members into one party. As long as the Church promotes basic civics, such as encouraging members to register to vote, to vote, and to encourage discussion of the issues but not endorse a candidate or party then it's OK. Churches usually have the facility to hold large public meetings where issues affecting their members can be held. I have no problem with a church using it's facility to promote DISCUSSION of issues as long as they allow dissenting opinions fair time.

A Church can lead or participate in a movement protesting injustice or promoting a cause for the common good. The Civil Rights movement was a movement against injustice and the Churches had a right to support it.

I don't have a problem with Churches supporting alternatives to abortion, but I have a problem with them harrassing women and employees of medical clinics that perform abortions. Any church whose staff participates in harrassing women and clinic workers should lose their tax exempt status immediately, but if they want to just advertise alternatives to abortion, that's OK. If the Church promotes lies about abortion in favor of their alternative, then they should be fined for false advertising.

[SlipperySlope]

29. Screw Dean

What, a church is supposed to forget all about ethics or else loose tax-exempt status?

Screw that.

Church's are tax exempt. Period. And churches have a moral duty to stand up against corruption and fascism!

The last time I was in church, the minister was speaking out against the Iraq war. That sure as hell is political, and I think he was reaching a lot of his constituants with what he said. You want that church to lose their tax exempt status?

[madfloridian]

34. The last time I was there they were preaching for war and against gays.

Something is wrong with that picture.

[SlipperySlope]

35. There is more than one kind of church in this Country.

You gag one, you gag them all...

[scorpiogirl]

36. Unfortunately the churches that preach hate and intolerance,

are the ones that are the most heard. At least that's the way it seems these days.

[madfloridian]

37. They don't have to gagged.

They just don't need to be political. Since Bush came on the scene, many churches have fallen for his wedge issues and preached against them.

The most unforgivable thing was for the Southern Baptist churches to call the Iraq invasion a holy war.

They don't have to be gagged. They just need to decide whether they will play politics.

[zulchzulu]

38. A-b-s-o-l-u-t-e-l-y!!!!!!!

I was in Illinois for Easter and was forced into going to mass at this place http://www.snows.org/DefaultEnglish.aspx.

There was anti-abortion literature everywhere and even photos of Bush and Reagan in the Gift Store. The place has hundreds of acres of land, lots of building on the premises and is openly Republican-leaning. Yet they don't pay taxes... it was truly nauseating and would actually make a really good 60 Minutes story or documentary. They even stopped a highway project where there would have been a rest stop nearby to "keep away the riff raff" as someone told me.

It's time for religious institutions to put up or shut the hell up.

[NVMojo]

39. they have become political whores! Plus they can get federal grants

as a reward now....