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Desperation vs. Leap of Faith. A theory on the primaries.

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bain_sidhe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 05:06 PM
Original message
Desperation vs. Leap of Faith. A theory on the primaries.
To all those Kerry supporters still insisting that Kerry's huge overnight bounce after Iowa was a result of voters "looking at him and deciding he was best" - get real. It was too big, and too sudden, and too much of it came from supporters of other candidates to be that. Exit polls showed that issues didn't matter, positions didn't matter, records didn't matter. What mattered was winnning in November, and Kerry convinced Iowans that he could do that. Kerry opponents, give the man some credit. He did that all by himself. Whether or not there were "dirty tricks" involved is now moot, because he did it, and now has the "electability" mantle.

Although some of his new support in NH and elsewhere came from undecideds, a lot MORE of it came from supporters of other candidates. These were not people who hadn't been paying attention, they were people who had looked at the candidates and had made a decision about who they thought would be the best candidate/president. But when Kerry looked like a "winner," they switched, because winning was more important. Why? Because sticking with their previous choice required a "leap of faith" in the face of "proof" that Kerry was a winner:

Dean - it requires a leap of faith to believe that this new type of campaign, with its new voters, will be able to win in November. It's never been tried before. Dare we bet our country on the chance that it might work?

Clark - it requires a leap of faith to believe that this man who has NEVER, EVER won an election, can win this one, with his message that appeals to both Democrats and moderate Republicans. I've taken that leap of faith - but I can understand that others may not be willing to bet their country on it.

Edwards - it requires a leap of faith to believe that the man who won ONE senate race, and appears unlikely to win it a second time, can win against the Bush/Rove machine. His lack of experience will be pounded like a big bass drum by the repukes, and are we willing to bet our country on the belief that the majority of Americans will ignore that in this "time of war" and faltering economy?

In short, to be a supporter of Dean, Clark or Edwards requires a leap of faith that it would appear the Democratic electorate is not willing to make for this election. This is understandable, because the price of being proven wrong is so horrific - Bush gets four more years to destroy everything good that this country stands for. And I don't think any of us doubt that he WILL do so, if he gets the chance.

Now, here's the shocker (at least, coming from me, it's a shocker). This is not an entirely bad thing. That's how the repukes do it. They support their guy whether they agree with him or not. If (and, yes, that's a big if) this "will to win" among the Democratic electorate, it bodes well for the nominee's chances in the general election.

HOWEVER, this "will to win" will benefit ANY nominee. And, here's the bad news: Kerry as a nominee might win, and that's not a bad thing - it can at least stop the packing of the courts with right-wing ideologues, and, remember, all lot of the destruction Bush has wreaked on this country has been done by Executive Orders - those can be overturned the very first day. But a Kerry candidacy will do nothing for the Democratic party in the long run. It will leave the country as polarized as it is now, will likely hurt the "down ticket" races in the South, and will probably lose even more seats in the Senate and House. Republicans have nearly a "working fillibuster-proof" majority now, when conservative Democrats who often vote with them are included. Do we really want them to have a "lock" on passing their agenda with the possibility of a working VETO-proof coalition? (It takes 60 votes to break a fillibuster, 67 votes to override a veto.)

A Clark candidacy, in my opinion, WILL benefit the party both short term and long term. As I've said all along, Clark is about REALIGNMENT. He can bring back those Dems that left the fold over security issues, and at least SOME of them that left over cultural issues. Instead of the 50-50 nation that republican congress-critters now face - a nation that offers no real punishment for obstructionism, Repubs could be facing a 60-40 nation, or even better. That changes the calculus of obstructionism - they could pay a real price for blocking Clark's initiatives. The very initiatives that will make those swing voters' lives better, and thereby solidify their switch to the Democratic fold.

I know I'm asking for a leap of faith. I know some people won't feel comfortable making it. And I accept that it's possible that *enough* people *won't* make that leap of faith, and Kerry will get the nomination. But let's be clear about what were choosing. The same "will to win" that could give Kerry the nomination and the Presidency can ALSO give Clark the Presidency. (Or even Dean, for those who support him. I'm less sure about Edwards... his lack of experience scares ME too.) Do we really want to give up the chance to CHANGE the country for a chance to merely "hold the line"?
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THUNDER HANDS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. maybe people just realize
That this isn't the year to take a 'leap of faith'. And if you have someone who looks like a sure thing, you go for that.

Especially since the GOP controlls congress, all this talk of 'Change' is just B.S. - no Democrat can move mountains, and with realignment, we won't be able to change washington until at least 2012.
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bain_sidhe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. I understand that a lot of people feel that way
But, I have to make the point, if our "will to win" is that strong, it's ALSO strong enough win WHOEVER is the nominee, right?
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democratreformed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. "Looks like" is the key word, here
We have learned (at least I have) not to trust the media on very many things. Why should I trust them on this?
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. this isn't the year either to nominate someone like Kerry
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
2. ABB is becoming very popular where I come from
in fact, I have never heard so many people express political opinions as I have these past few weeks-and all against Bush-all over the place--in the supermarkets, in the library, on the streets. They want to know where to get the ABB buttons. If I had a button making machine, I would be making a neat little profit by printing out the ABB buttons.

It is gaining momentum here at least that is my perception. So, whoever it is, will get these votes, for sure. Nothing could be as awful and as terrible as Bush. I would hope for something less entrenched than Kerry, but be sure, whoever it is, will get the votes of all of these fed up people.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
3. I'll trust the voters
Edited on Sun Feb-01-04 05:19 PM by bigtree

The only polls that count are the ones we vote at.
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dawn Donating Member (876 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
4. Maybe for some of us it's more of a leap of faith to support Kerry..
I'd definitely vote for Kerry against Bush if he ends up as the nominee, but he doesn't inspire me like Clark, Edwards, Dean, or Kucinich do. So in that sense, it would be a leap of faith for me to support Kerry at this point.
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BruinAlum Donating Member (565 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
5. Very well stated
And states what I could not put in to words about making "a leap of faith" with some candidates.

While I do have some reservations about how Clark has presented himself so far, I will gladly vote for him should he be the nominee come November.

Thank you for the very thoughtfully written piece.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
6. Make a real leap of faith and vote for Dennis Kucinich!

Anyone can beat Bush as long as people turn out and support our nominee. Turnout is the key.
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bain_sidhe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Sorry, I don't support Kucinich
I know a lot of people here do... if I had a nickel for every time I've read "I'd back Kucinich but I don't think he could get elected" I'd have... well, a lot of money. But I'm not one of them - he's too far left for me. (My secret is out, I'm a moderate!)
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
7. Kerry developed a sense of invincibility with his wins in Iowa and NH
And he could lose that just as quickly if he loses 3 or 4 states this Tuesday. I agree with you that it is the "electability" mantle that is pushing him ahead in the polls and in the primaries. However, once someone beats him, he loses that sole claim to electability, in my opinion.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
10. The reason a leap of faith isn't required to vote for Kerry
is that he is the best candidate.

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. It's earned faith, real faith
No leap involved. IMO.
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bain_sidhe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Not in my opinion
But I'll grant you that he was the best campaigner in Iowa. He's done little more than ride the bounce since then, though. IMHO, of course.
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democratreformed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. No leap of faith for me to vote Clark
either since, IMO, HE is the best candidate. No offense to your candidate.
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anti-NAFTA Donating Member (900 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
13. has someone here been reading Kierkegaard recently?
specifically The Sickness Unto Death and Fear and Trembling?
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bain_sidhe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. No, but please exand!
I'd be interested in reading how it relates!
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anti-NAFTA Donating Member (900 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. He said that
unbelief is Despair that can only be cured by faith in Christ in a leap of faith (throwing away rationality)
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
15. I'll support whoever the nominee is
but I'm making it perfectly clear: I'm out to change the country, not just the President.

Some candidates will just change the residency of the White House, and in my opinion, nothing more.
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NV1962 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
18. Presidents don't take "leaps of faith"
We have one right now who leaps and lapses around, incoherently gesticulating to illustrate his "faith" while bombing health care, the economy and employment at home, and leaping faithfully into other countries. And you're saying Kerry is a credible alternative, that we just have to leap (once more) faithfully through the hoop(la)? Hmmm...

Sorry, no sale. He dresses nicely though; come to think of it, I could go with an Armani/Gucci ticket.
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bain_sidhe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. No, I'm not saying that
And you're saying Kerry is a credible alternative, that we just have to leap (once more) faithfully through the hoop(la)? Hmmm...

I'm saying that a lot of people seem to be thinking that voting for somebody OTHER than Kerry (since he's the "winner" as crowned by the media and two primaries) requires a "leap of faith." And it does, to some extent. Kerry has "proof" that he's a "winner," albeit a very small amount of proof. But, in fact, I don't necessarily disagree that voting for Kerry is a "leap of faith* - after all, his "proof" is that he won a couple of primaries, and of those, he only actually EARNED his victory in the first one. But, again this "faith" - that he's "a winner" - at least has some proof, so I don't really call it faith as much as I call it undue extrapolation from insufficient data. :D

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bain_sidhe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. BTW, Thanks for helping me clarify
my thinking. I'd like to put this over on the Clark blog, but want to make sure I'm stating my case clearly. Your misunderstanding helped me see that I'm not.

The central point is, Democrats want to win, more than anything, this time around. So supporting ANY candidate who isn't the front-runner (i.e., "winner") looks like a "leap of faith" to voters whose highest priority is winning. If Clark becomes the front runner, then supporting Kerry would require a "leap of faith."
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NV1962 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. You're welcome
Exchanges of ideas and opinion can't be fertile without mutual willingness to consider the offered alternative point of view, and I laud your open mind and honest approach.

However...

As I pointed out here, albeit not that explicit, is that in determining who deserves my support I don't give a rip about poll standings, flavors of the month, popularity and similar external, in my opinion not intrinsically relevant factors.

Credibility and its evil twin named "electability" are results of perception - not necessarily reflecting reality.

Elsewhere, earlier, I have clearly separated in the specific case of John Kerry what I think of him as a person (probably likable) from what I think of him as a Senator (overall, acceptable) from what I think of him as a candidate for the high office of President of the United States, in conjunction with his campaign approach (i.e.: his rhetoric appeals to possible voters.)

In that last regard, and considering that "image" matters -- unfortunately -- even more than positions and pledges, I find John Kerry (the candidate) not only wanting, but a neatly deficient proposition.

In that other topic to which I just proved a link, I laid out what I can agree with in three candidates; what I said can very well also be taken as my implicit reasons not to support Kerry (and Edwards, and Lieberman.)

I believe it's important to acknowledge that we're not voting against Bush, but for the candidate who, in our individual opinion, best represents the values, principles, character, abilities, integrity, and the professional track record on issues that we deem of greatest importance in the next President of the United States.

Staying away from duty on issues that are of far greater importance to voters than the IRW doesn't send the right message. It doesn't inspire confidence, and it sure as heck doesn't convince me to take a plunge along with the circumstantial winner of primaries - and move on to drop into the abyss of the general elections.

Dukakis and Mondale were nice guys, too - they lost because they failed to connect on real issues.

I want to recognize a winner, not merely believe one candidate or another just may be one.

So, in conclusion: sorry, but we'll just have to agree to disagree here...

(PS: I think it's a good idea to post your thoughts on CNN - so do I!)
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bain_sidhe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Who's disagreeing?
I agree with you. I'm supporting Clark because I believe he's the best guy, and would make both the best candidate AND the best President.

What I'm struggling to articulate here is why the "bandwagon" effect is so much greater than it has been in previous contests. "People" - not you and me specifically - aren't willing to take a leap of faith this time around, because they have determined that winning is the only important thing in this election. Or, put another way, getting Bush out trumps any concerns they may have over WHATEVER candidate seems to be the "winner" at any given point in the primary process.

This works to Kerry's benefit right now, since he's perceived to be the winner. If (dare I hope, when) Clark is perceived to be the "winner" (or at least, front runner) that SAME dynamic will work in his favor. The support Kerry is getting, both from post-Iowa "switchers" and from the "late deciders" is due to the pervasive unwillingness of the majority - or, I should say, plurality, since Kerry still hasn't polled over 50% - of Democratic voters to take ANY "leap of faith" this time around. Voting for the front runner is seen as voting for "winning," REGARDLESS of whether that's actually true.

It's obvious that my essay needs a bit of work, don't you think? Maybe I'll let it sit a bit and come back to it.

(BTW, my own short blog is at http://kjg.forclark.com/)
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Leilani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
24. Excellent, thoughtful Post!
I am supporting Wes Clark, & yes, I have made a leap of faith.
Beating Bush is paramount, but I also want hope, excitement, & change. Real change. And I don't think that will happen with Kerry.
He represents so much that I hate about Washington.

So yes, I can understand the Kerry Bandwagon, because people are
desperate to remove Bush. But I want MORE than Bush's removal, & that's why I am supporting Wes Clark.

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