Why I like Howard Dean, but do not support his candidacy

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

Let me first say that I will vote for any Democrat who runs against George Bush in the general election, and that I have already chosen a candidate, who I support based on his/her merits not based on any aversion to Howard Dean. This rant is about why, despite my admiration for what Dean has done for the Democratic Party, I do not support Dean for the Democratic nomination.

Howard Dean was a good governor. There is no doubt about that. He balanced the budget, expanded health care coverage and signed into law the nation's first civil unions law. He was a centrist governor. While I find some faults with his record, concerning how he balanced the budget, his A rating from the NRA and his initial opposition to the civil unions law, he was a very common sense type of governor. Howard Dean is not the radical leftist that HE has allowed the media to paint him as. I am actually more liberal than Dean overall.

Howard Dean has done a great service to the Democratic Party by changing the whole dynamic of this primary. He has reinvigorated the liberal base, completely revolutionized the political use of the Internet, and stood up for traditional Democratic values. He was the first, this primary season, to say that Democrats ought to start acting like Democrats again, and that we lost the 2002 midterms because we presented no clear alternative to George Bush. This 2004 primary and the Democratic Party is better off because of Howard Dean's involvement.

I also identify with Dean's anger and personality. I am mad as hell at George Bush, and I want a candidate who can express that anger to the rest of the American public. I also consider myself a to-the-point, straight shooter (despite recent questions over Dean's honesty) who has next to no temper. I am very much like Howard Dean.

But I do not nor did I ever support Howard Dean's candidacy. It would have been very easy for me to fall in love with the Dean campaign as a strong minority in the Party already have. I realized early on that Dean would be a great chairman of the DNC but should NEVER be the face of our Party. Politics, probably more than any other social science field, is about perception. Howard Dean is perceived as a far left, shoot from the hip, wide-eyed, angry liberal by most anyone other than his supporters. This perception is certainly not accurate, but it is the perception DEAN, through his mismanagement of the Media, has allowed to be painted of him. My mother, a registered Republican, who is very moderate and dislikes Bush and voted for Gore in 2000 (the epitome of the swing voter we need to win this election), does not know whether she could vote for Dean. Even though most of the other Democratic candidates support civil unions and are very critical of Bush's handling of the Iraq mess, Dean is perceived as the most extreme gay rights supporter and peacenik among the field to non-political junkies. While many of us appreciate that type of perception, a good portion of the electorate and of the Democratic Party itself (the 80+% who despite Dean's 2 years of campaigning and unending media coverage do not support him currently) see this perception as a fault, not an asset. Bottom Line: The public's perception of Dean is not one they like to have as their President.

Secondly, Dean is not a very likable man. The last unlikeable President we elected was probably Richard Nixon. Carter, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, and Bush II all were elected, in part, because the American people liked them as people. Dean, for all his policy merits (think Gore), is not a likable person. The American public, at least for quite some time, will not elect a president they do not like as a person.

Finally, assuming Dean gets the nomination and somehow defeats Bush, he will be hated and attacked with the same fervor that Bill Clinton was. He will face a wall of Republican opposition to all of his policies. He will be unable to bring this country together, to build the political support necessary to implement his policies. We need a Democratic President who can increase our seats in the Congress and (gasp!) work with Republicans to get legislation passed. I think any of the 8 candidates would be more able to do that than Dean if only because of the nature of Dean's campaign and his personality.

Dean has done many good things for the Democratic Party and the people of Vermont, but it is time for a different face to lead our Party against Bush. To beat Bush and govern effectively after we do, we need a positive, moderating figure. Dean should replace the inept Terry as the chairman of the DNC, but he should not be the face of our Party. This election, with the Constitution literally in the balance, is too important to risk either a loss or ineffective Democratic governance. Dean laid the seeds for revolutionizing our Party; now we need the right farmer to reap the harvest.

[vi5]

1. Although you'll get flamed, I will commend your take on this...

I feel very much the same way. Although I've been loathe to put it into words as you have because I knew it would generate the inevitable 'Dean bashing!!' or martyr-like posts about how everyone in the world is out to get Howard Dean, while at the same time trying to convince us that everyone LOOOOVES Howard Dean.

Your post is a reminder that there is a middle ground. We can like the guy, respect the guy, agree with the guy, but still not think he's the best man for the job at hand, which is beating you know who in 11/04.

[ibegurpard]

2. Why would he get flamed by a reasonable person?

He's expressing something as his OPINION and not trying to pass if off as some kind of immutable fact or proof of something.

[vi5]

3. Have you read this board?

There's not exactly an overabundance of rational thought and respect of differing opinions. I've seen some posts even more reasonable than this one that got burnt to a crisp from the flames.

[ibegurpard]

5. Are you kidding? LOL

I've been in the middle of half of those flamefests.

He's put his opinion forward, backed it up with reasons and thus, although I don't agree with his opinion, I really can't take any issue with it.

[displacedtexan]

4. You describe dean as a sort of modern day John the Baptist...

I agree, but I believe it's too late to stem the primary tide. We'll just have to work harder in the general election cycle to get Dean elected.
Love your idea re Dean as head of the DNC!
Wouldn't you just love to see Dean debate Gillespie on Faux?

[Scoopie]

6. Middle America

and the Independent voter thanks you for this!
I only wish others would wake up to this reality.
I live in a conservative area of the country. Mention Dean and Republican eyes light up with glee at the prospect of beating him. Mention Dean to moderate Democrats and they shake their head as if resigned to his candidacy and wonder why "those far-left liberals" will only "give us" this candidate (I remind them they can still vote at this point and tell them we're an early voting state, now, and can help change this - they're thrilled!)
Again, thanks for this post.
While I've never and would never support Dean, as you would, I can certainly agree with your reasons for why we all shouldn't.

[ibegurpard]

8. And here is where I take issue.

Nowhere in the original poster's points is he trying to claim anything as REALITY. He is presenting his opinion and why he feels so. And I really hope that you're statement that you "would never support Dean" wouldn't extend to the general election. I am very dubious and unenthusiastic about Clark but if he manages to pull off the nomination he's got my vote.

[Padraig18]

18. I line in the Midwest, and the republicans are *scared* of Dean

I live in rural, Republican, downstse Illinois, and the republicans here say that Howard Dean is not the candidate they want to face next November; he is a common-sense social moderate who is also a strong fiscal conservative, just the kind of candidate they are afraid will reap independent votes and the votes of moderate Republicans.

Maybe it's different where you live, but that's how it is 'on the ground' in Illinois.

[JNelson6563]

45. that's the story in Michigan too

They're scared witless of Dean here in the Mitten. haha

Julie

[5thGenDemocrat]

60. That may be true up in your part of the Lower Peninsula, Julie, but

I had Andy the Right Wing Republican over here the other night (hey, it's the Christmas season) and the talk turned to politics -- as it always does.
Andy was, quite literally, chortling about the prospect of us Dems running, as he put it, "your boy Dean," assuming, as Repukes usually do, that all us liberal Democrats are just supporting the former Vermont governor.
I pointed out my "Clark '04" sticker placed directly over the computer -- right next to my one for "Democratic Underground.com," and sweetly suggested he stop referring to the guy as "my boy." Then I asked him who he'd rather see the Dems nominate.
After much hemming and hawing in the face of a Patented Johnny-brand Third-Degree Interrogation (accept no substitutes), he admitted he'd much rather run against Dean. He hates to give out such information, knowing it will wind up right back here.
Now I wouldn't, by ANY stretch of the imagination, presume to say Andy is a typical Republican voter (though who knows any more?), but he's hoping we nominate Dean. And, just as he'd expect, I'm passing that along.
John
Hope to see you at FUNDAY in June, Julie.

[JNelson6563]

64. Well actually, it was more in reference to statewide

There was an article in my local paper a few months back. It was our AG meeting with Repubs on Mackinac Island. Using Dean like a boogie-man. "Imagine this 'Michigan's 17 electoral votes go to Dean' or 'President Dean'" he said to the crowd. "Think about that and let it drive you to make one more phone call, knock on one more door and donate one more dollar ot the Republican cause."

I paraphrase but it's really, really close to what was said. It smelled like fear. In spite of what Andy had to say.

Julie

[5thGenDemocrat]

83. Oh, I don't doubt that the Repubs are scared in Michigan

They have every right to be and my guess is that either Dean or Clark will carry Michigan big. Living up at TC as you do, you're in a more heavily Republican part of the state than Saginaw -- but, to a TC GOPer, "Republican" means good, grey Bill Milliken more than it does anything resembing Dopey and his neocons (Robert Griffin comes to mind, too).
Here in Saginaw, we don't much like Repubs of any stripe. Maybe they do out in the "township," but Saginaw City will go 85-90 percent Dem, just as usual.
Now, Andy had about eight or ten beers in him when we chatted -- and he doesn't like "liberals" like Howard Dean. I know Dean isn't particularly liberal and YOU know Dean isn't particularly liberal -- but to Andy, anything left of Joe McCarthy is liberal.
Andy was just commenting that he'd rather see us nominate Dean. He could've been drunk (hell, he WAS drunk) but, as of December 23, that's what he said. I say the Dems will carry Michigan, regardless, so all we've got here (for us Michiganians) is a matter of personal preference as to who our nominee should be.
John
Come to FUNDAY X in June and I'll introduce you to Andy. He's, um, unforgettable.

[dogman]

77. different here

I live in rural Illinois and while canvassing my precinct and neighboring precincts most people I talk to think Dean is a lock and therefore Bush is also.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

49. One of my Republican friends (who is a Clark supporter) told me that

there is no way she is going to vote for Dean - for some reason she's very leery of Dean. She thinks he's just like Bush. She would, however, vote for Kerry, Edwards, Kucinich, Clark, Braun or Gephardt.

I've asked her to at least NOT vote for Bush or vote third party.

Another one of my Republican friends asked me "Why are the Democrats committing suicide? You'd think they'd be so hungry to win that they'd pick a better candidate." She totally cannot understand why all of the Dems aren't going for Clark. "He's a four star General and a Rhodes scholar."

[HFishbine]

7. Capitulating to media perception is suicide

I put no faith in any argument that builds on assumptions about media perception. Perceptions are fluid and a necessary requirement for a succesful candidate is one who can shape perceptions.

If we began a consideration of the candidates by conceeding to perceptions, there would be no hope at all:

Clark -- inexperienced, fired, no political experience
Dean -- too liberal
Edwards -- breck girl, too inexperienced
Gephardt -- Washington insider, bush-lite
Kerry -- Washington insider, can't make up his mind about the war
Kucinich -- Far, far left
Lieberman -- moralizing republican in dem clothing
Moseley-Braun -- controversial background
Sharpton -- extremely controversial

Any of our candidates can be painted negatively. To suggest that we moderate our message to appeal to public perception is a defeatest tactic that was tried and failed in 2000 and 2002. Real leadership is standing up for what is right and changing public opinion. That's where Dean comes in.

[Patriot_Spear]

9. Excellent point- your post should have it's own thread. n/t

[Sensitivity]

17. Which Candidate are you for? I don't think Dean is Percieved as Liberal

[HFishbine]

24. For Dean

Was merely pointing out some of the common media (mis)conceptions that would need to be delt with by any candidate.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

51. Theres' still a lot of "every day" people who perceive him that way

Only because of his outspokeness on Iraq and the Civil Unions thing.

[spooky3]

23. I believe our friend Rush is the source of the "Breck girl"

comment re: Edwards. I'm not sure that qualifies as a "perception" because I don't think even Rush believes much of what he says; he just has an agenda he's trying to push. But more to the point, I'm not sure how widely shared any of these "perceptions" are, among the average voters. I think most people really don't have a perception/opinion of most of the Democratic candidates. The polls, for what they are worth, show large percentages of undecided and "don't know" responses, and these don't even count the many people who refuse to participate in them. Other polls show more favorable impressions of candidates than your descriptions. So I don't dismiss the importance-of-perceptions argument. Also, perceptions can be influenced, but they usually have some basis in reality for most people.

I thought the original post (by Rage) was interesting and reflective. I actually find Dean likable but I realize that is subjective. I'll be interested to see how the average voter reacts to him (and, I hope, other candidates) when he finally begins to be seen on TV (versus the all *, all-the-time, coverage that is on there now).

[farmbo]

10. Dean is as unlikable as Nixon? Say what?

Have you ever heard him speak in person? Or work a room? Dean is as congenial and respectful as any candidate. He has a charming, engaging sense of humor, and a unique ability to connect with individual voters.

Your premise is ,frankly, bogus. Perhaps borne from too much time on DU, where he is painted as Jack the Ripper by his opponent's supporters.

Peace.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

12. Right. Just don't listen to what he says

because that is where I begin to not like him. He is incredibly inconsistent.

[Jerseycoa]

11. Agree with almost all you say

But I don't think the leftist thing is the main problem. He can talk that around and already has been doing it. He has never been a leftist and that is hard to disprove, although some will try and fail.

It's the talking around I see as the biggest drawback. He is verbally clumsy. Attempts to confirm an issue or statement, lead to circles within circles. I think Dean will suffer more than any other nominee from the things he has said and then unsaid and then said again, things he says he's done, undone, and again done. He has made it very easy for a concentrated, negative GOP campaign to wipe him out. His great appeal for the GE is being seen as a "straight talker" and yet there he is weakest.

I know Dean is easy to love to his supporters, so saying he is not likable seems weird, but I do agree his persona is abrasive and not in the Give 'em hell, Harry, kind of way some people seem to see.

I will vote for Dean if he wins the nomination. I do not want to see him win the nomination, because I do not see him as the best candidate we have to beat George Bush.

I believe we have to have this discussion, painful as it has been so far. It would be nice if it were civil and thoughtful, but I don't bank on it. I think we should be doing this with all candidates, but without the automatic backslap that so often comes along.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

15. Very thoughtful post

Nicely summarizes my exact take on Dean. Nice sig from Clark too.

[AntiCoup2K4]

13. It would seem you are more opposed to the "perception" of Dean than ....

... you are to the man himself. If that's the case, wouldn't the answer be to counter that perception, most of it coming directly from the KKKarl Rove spin machine? As you correctly pointed out, Dean's record speaks to the fact that he is no "hard left liberal", as the FAUXian propagandists would like you to believe. Moderate Republicans who voted for Gore over Junior should find Dean more to their liking than Gore based on his gun record and fiscal conservatism alone. I agree Dr Dean would be a great chair for the DNC, but he will make an even better President :)

[dajabr]

14. Hey Rage...

How's The Stop Dean Movement you were backing here at DU recently going for ya?

Boy, that really got a lot of people angry at each other. And then you just disappeared for a while... Wonder if you'll be back to this thread?

[madfloridian]

19. This Stop Dean movement? I do remember it.

SNIP..."Wes is against attacking Dean, but that doesn't mean that we can't do it ourselves. My friend and I are working to create a grassroots coalition to stop Howard Dean from getting the Democratic nomination. We want Clark people, Gephardt people, Kerry people, anyone you can think of to join this fight. This fight will have nothing to do with Wes, it is just about stopping Howard Dean. If they have the power, then so do we and I think its time we used it...."

If you are interested in helping us out or just joining the stopdean listerv please email me at"... I left out the address.

Source, another blog. Could be another Stop Dean movement. Not sure.

I wondered how this movement was getting along.

[bearfartinthewoods]

29. looks like rage is also onto the strategy of dean supporters attempting

to deflect the discussion of dean by attacking the critic or the critics candidate.

[edzontar]

39. Huh? Explain thyself.

The attack is coming from the original poster.

These "Stop Dean Threads" are deliberately crafted, intentionally disruptive flame-bait.

Just follow some of the originator's links to track the history.

If onlyy such energy could be directed to GOOD, instead of evil!!!

[edzontar]

16. Rage!!!!

Haven't seen you much since your "Join the Stop Dean Movement" thread of a while back.

Missed ya!

[Crunchy Frog]

20. Thank you for your thoughtful post

It expresses many of my own thoughts and feeling. I don't agree with everything in it, I started out a Dean supporter and he continues to be my second choice. I still do think that Dean would do better than most of the other candidates but I agree with what you said about some of his major weaknesses. That's why I ended up supporting another candidate even though Dean's message has really resonnated with me.

[poskonig]

21. Not factual.

The favorable "perception" of a candidate is somewhat of function of the amount of money the candidate has to spend. Dean's campaign apparatus is a valuable asset for the Democrats.

Dean has the lowest unfavorables among Democrats, a result of running a solid primary campaign. Likability, however, is not easily quantified. In addition, "likability" is tied to other factors. Often people say "I don't like candidate A because of x, y, z." Numbers aren't static -- the idea is not to follow them, but to change them. Dean's campaign has been very effective in this regard.

[hellhathnofury]

22. Grass Roots might be the innoculation.

Voters generally don't like the media in the first place, they do like their families and friends though. I can see a grass roots campaign with Perot like infomercials working very easily. Surrendering based on perceptions is never a good idea.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

25. Just another "Dean is too liberal to win" post.

"To beat Bush and govern effectively after we do, we need a positive, moderating figure".

Like? Lieberman? Zell Miller? Mr. Rogers?

[AWD]

26. I call BULLSHIT!

You subject line claims you "like Howard Dean"

BULLSHIT!!!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=909472
Heck, he doesn't even look presidential at 5'7" and has no neck to speak of.

He speech is fast and he stumbles through much of what he is saying, until he gets to his canned Tony Robbins mantra of "you've got the power".

His following is supposed to be "college educated", but I am starting to rather doubt that they have done their homework.

They have all forgotten to read the chapter on winning a general election.

Yeah, sounds like you REALLY like the man.

BULLSHIT!!!

By the way, you claim to "not endorse any candidate at this time??? Then, who's this??? I edited the e-mail address to prevent violation of rules.

http://www.gwforclark.com/contact.html

Chad Reed
E-mail:[e-mail]
AOL Instant Messenger: whiteguy00000

The AOL IM address is the SAME as in your DU bio. Now, what was that again about not endorsing any candidate yet?

Give it up...we all KNOW you started here with a Clark avatar, you help run GWforClark, and you stated the Stop Dean movement.

You're not fooling anybody.

Oh, and before you claim you never said you don't endorse a candidate yet....it's right here.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=912123
I do not endorse any other candidate at this time (even General Clark) nor am I in any way affiliated with his campaign.

Nice try.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[edzontar]

32. Rage--your divisive posts have done more harm than good...

To your cause, to our collective cause, and to this forum.

Many people have left this board as a result of your actions.

I hope will reconsider your tactics as we enter the new year.

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

34. definitely not

More people have left this board because of the unreasonableness and hatred directed toward them by SOME Dean supporters here than by my posting Howard Dean's weaknesses. Organizing the vast majority of Democrats for a common interest of defeating George Bush is the most progressive and patriotic thing I could do. I am through defending myself to you and others, but please continue your personal attacks against me. They only reveal the pettiness of your actions.

[edzontar]

37. Not a personal attack--a critique of your methods

And an analysis of their effects.

There is a difference.

[AWD]

33. Distortion of you???

I used YOUR words!

Word-for-word, I reposted your comments on these boards. Yeah, that's distortion.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AWD]

36. They are YOUR words.....

Please click on the links to see WHO wrote the words. They are written by RageAgainstTheirMachine....

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AWD]

40. It's in YOUR post.

Therefore, YOU posted it.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=909472
Heck, he doesn't even look presidential at 5'7" and has no neck to speak of.

He speech is fast and he stumbles through much of what he is saying, until he gets to his canned Tony Robbins mantra of "you've got the power".

His following is supposed to be "college educated", but I am starting to rather doubt that they have done their homework.

They have all forgotten to read the chapter on winning a general election.

Yeah, sounds like you REALLY like the man.

BULLSHIT!!!

By the way, you claim to "not endorse any candidate at this time??? Then, who's this??? I edited the e-mail address to prevent violation of rules.

http://www.gwforclark.com/contact.html

Chad Reed
E-mail:[e-mail]
AOL Instant Messenger: whiteguy00000

The AOL IM address is the SAME as in your DU bio. Now, what was that again about not endorsing any candidate yet?

Give it up...we all KNOW you started here with a Clark avatar, you help run GWforClark, and you stated the Stop Dean movement.

You're not fooling anybody.

Oh, and before you claim you never said you don't endorse a candidate yet....it's right here.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=912123
I do not endorse any other candidate at this time (even General Clark) nor am I in any way affiliated with his campaign.

Nice try

[AWD]

41. I take responsibility for what I post....

...and if I have a different viewpoint than what I post, I apologize for it and correct my views.

Iguess that charasteristic isn't prevalent in everybody.

Do you disagree with the words YOU posted in YOUR thread?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=909472
Heck, he doesn't even look presidential at 5'7" and has no neck to speak of.
He speech is fast and he stumbles through much of what he is saying, until he gets to his canned Tony Robbins mantra of "you've got the power".
His following is supposed to be "college educated", but I am starting to rather doubt that they have done their homework.
They have all forgotten to read the chapter on winning a general election.

Do you agree or disagree with that comment???

[JNelson6563]

50. I think there have been enough deletions

to where you probably won't be hearing back within 24 hours.

Julie

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[edzontar]

54. Good lord-such vitriol!!!!

nt

[AWD]

55. Yep

And this is from the person who in THIS VERY THREAD, stated that he "likes Howard Dean".

Then accuses me of lying when I use links to his EXACT posts. Oh, well.

I alerted the mods by sending them the e-mail, and I assume a banning is forthcoming.

Not to re-enter that whole ordeal, but I can assume that people who support Clark will want this person banned too, especially after all the ugliness that transpired last week over an outside harrassment of my good friend Will Pitt.

[edzontar]

57. I will light a candle for you, and for Will Pitt too.

This nonsense has to end.

[AWD]

59. Oh, Lord no

I need no candles lit. The poster in question stepped WAY over the line (as did Pitt's tormentor), but I can surely laugh at their hypocrisy.

But I thank you for your concern.

[edzontar]

61. The candle is a euphemism for some other actions....

I am being circumspect, is all.

Don't want another 24 hour ban.

[AWD]

62. I know....

...it's all good.

[AWD]

42. It should also be noted.....

...that RageAgainstTheirMachine has now edited his profile to remove his AOL IM screenname. If the poster is so sure that his "Stop Dean" movement is the right thing to do, they why is he trying to hide who he is and what candidate he is working for.

[edzontar]

47. A fair question....

These tactics are not very reassuring, shall we say.

[AWD]

63. And now....

....it should be noted that he's disabled his profile completely.

Someone with that much to hide cannot be trusted.

'Sokay...we know who he is, what campaign he works for, and what movements he has started.

[JNelson6563]

46. I love it

MO expose'!! How delightful!!

Rock on AWD! :toast:

Julie

[Liberal Veteran]

67. Nice to know that as a 5'7" person myself, I can't be prez.

How fucked up is that?

[dutchdemocrat]

72. Nailed.

Spin like that bullshit deserves to be exposed. He lied and then got caught with his arm pit deep in the cookie jar.

Using the 'better for the party' bullshit is very Rovean' IMO.

The hiding of his profile and erasure of contact evidence is damning enough and very 'Watergate' in method. The broom came out too late didn't it?

Well done AWD.

[dajabr]

86. You rock!

:yourock:

[edzontar]

27. Keep saying to yourself--over and over again...

Dean will lose.

Clark is our only hope.

Maybe you can make yourself believe it.

But you are not convincing anyone else.

[eridani]

28. What I like about Dean--

--is that he is calling his supporters to active citizenship above and beyond voting. But it's Kucinich who has the platform worthy of active citizens.

[AWD]

43. I can agree with your statement...

(Dean) is calling his supporters to active citizenship above and beyond voting. But it's Kucinich who has the platform worthy of active citizens.

The only point I'd like to add is this.....a large percentage of Dennis Kucinich supporters already WERE active throughout the progressive movement. He has mobilized the activists together and given them a huge cause to further.

Dean has brought many NEW people into the political arena and used anger against Bush as a way to draw their attention toawrds getting political. Along the way, I've come across many people who now support Dean that never campaigned, not donated, not even VOTED before.

Granted, this is FAR from the only aspect of his incredible campaign, but it is worth seeing.

Both men are doing incredible service for the Democratic party throughout this primary election. Dean is getting new people involved, and Kucinich is forcing other candidates to modify their policies towards the left as they see his movement gaining steam.

[CWebster]

31. Wrong

"Howard Dean is not the radical leftist that HE has allowed the media to paint him as."

Dean never hid or denied that he was anything other than in the center. Funny that you acknowledge who he is accurately enough in the text of your post, but then condemn him for allowing - or even encouraging, the perception of himself as a "fringe leftist".

What the Right seeks to cast him as, you pin on Dean himself. In fact, while attempting to distance yourself with disclaimors, you jump on the bandwagon and spout all the Right-wing talking points. You don't really think that ANY OF THE DEMOCRATIC candidates will be immune from the multi-million dollar right-wing smear machine, do you? I think Dean is doing damn well, considering all the heat he takes from the Right and those on the Left, willing to do the Right's broadcasting. Hell, how can any of the other Democratic candidates hope to mount a campaign to challenge Bush, when they can't even reach Dean.

[mermaid]

44. Wrong!

Right now...the important thing is to BEAT BUSH!!! Nothing else matters. It don't even matter if the guy can't govern once he's elected...the important thing is beat Bush NOW!!

And Dean is the only candidate I see as having a snowflake's chance of doing it.

And I think Dean will do just fine at governing. But even if he doesn't...it's still better than 4 more years of Bush!

You find me one other candidate who has anywhere NEAR the chance of beating Bush as Dean has...and make a persuasive argument, I might even go along. but for now, for me...Job Number One is....BEAT BUSH...AT ALL COSTS!!!

[edzontar]

48. Why I like Clark, but do not appreciate his more reckless supporters.

Just read the thread above and follow the links provided by AD.

Nothing more need be said.

[imax2268]

52. Well said AWD...

Sorry Rage...but your regurgitating right wing drivel...

[batman]

56. could it be because your the leader of the stop dean movement?

same email anyhow.

sorry just saw that the issue was mentioned previously

[edzontar]

58. You are correct, sir!!!!

Read the rest of the thread and see.

[PatrioticOhioLiberal]

66. Amazing

I've just read the entire thread...quite dissappointed by it.

It seems opinions are only allowed if one likes all the poster's opinions both past & present.

Great way to annihilate a discussion that could have been thought provoking guys...but I guess I shouldn't be surprised from seeing what goes on on these boards should I?

[AWD]

68. Yeah, whatever...

...the poster has contracdicted his OWN statements throughout his short-lived tenure, created a movement to prevent a Dem from being in the primaries, distorted his own words, and hid his real identity so he can claim he's not doing what we all have SEEN he's doing.

Then, he harrasses somebody through their own e-mail, and you want to shed a tear for them????

It has NOTHING to do with disagreement. It has EVERYTHING to do with distortion, contradiction, hypocrisy, and outright hatered.

Go look at the history of the poster, and then YOU tell me if they deserve any pity.

[PatrioticOhioLiberal]

82. I have no tears for any poster

I do, however, shed tears for the shutting down of disscussion on any legitimate topic.

I don't know the poster...I don't know any of you.

I do know that open discussion & even dissent is the heart of the democratic process.

I don't plug my ears (or in this case cover my eyes) against a point of view because I don't like the person giving it or don't like what that person may have said in the past or might say in the future.

For those of us who have a legitimate desire to exchange views and discuss issues the deterioration of threads such as this one don't add to that process in the least.

I'm beginning to get the impression many people on these boards would rather play gotcha than actually look at the issues raised and discuss them in any type of legitimate way and its a darn shame.

[JNelson6563]

69. oh wow!!

We're so sorry to have exposed this lie. We hope youcan find it in your heart to forgive us for showing the world that the sentiments put forth in the original post were essentially untrue ("I like Dean").

AWD tore the thin veil off of that one with quotes and links to quotes. He didn't just throw out accusations and blanket statements, he ponied up with plenty of evidence to prove his assertion.

One wonders how anyone could be disappointed in that.

Julie

[edzontar]

73. Rage is unmasked....and the view ain't too good....

nt

[WillyT]

74. Ah Yes, Sunlight... The Best Disinfectant !!!

Beautiful job AWD!!!

:kick:

[dutchdemocrat]

75. And Edzontar as well

You smelled the smoke first.

[WillyT]

76. This Is True !!! --- And Edzontar's Reasonableness Was Real, While...

'Ole Rage there, was trying the 'Faux Reasonable' approach.

And got caught.

:kick:

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PatrioticOhioLiberal]

84. One wonders

if anyone on these boards really want to discuss issues.

[edzontar]

71. So you have no problem with the "Stop Dean Movement"

And the threads appertaining thereunto?

It's sad, really.

[PatrioticOhioLiberal]

85. No more than I have a problem

with the smear everyone but my guy movement.

The candidates will stand or fall on their own merits.

The problem here seems to be that any time anyone says anything less than positive about another candidate they can count on getting attacked by the opposition.

As I responded on a previous post, I don't know the poster or anyone here. I'm just telling you what all this looks like to a new comer to the boards...and what it looks like isn't in the least pretty.

[PatrioticOhioLiberal]

65. Well done

I commend you on your well presented arguments.

You have voiced, quite nicely what I couldn't quite put my finger on.

:toast:

[edzontar]

70. deleted by poster....

nt

[quinnox]

79. You make some good points

One point I differ with the post is I dislike Dean, I can see how phony he is with no problem.

Also, let's hope the "Stop Dean movement" is successful, for the sake of having a chance vs. Bush next year.

[WillyT]

81. LOL !!! --- Hey quinnox... Did You... Like... Read The Entire Thread ???

Ya might wanna.

;)

[Hippo_Tron]

80. Good points except...

Clinton did manage to work with congress and Dean can do the same once he's in office. Not to mention that the president doesn't balance the budget nor does congress. A balanced budget comes from a Dem President and a GOP congress or vice versa not being able to agree on what to spend the government's money on.

[Raya]

87. Say it AGAIN! My Dean Supporter Pals are in Fantasyland

Dean is not real. So many excuses for his phony positions when
he is found out, its crazy. Can we get serious here?

[WillyT]

88. Man, You Guys Really SHOULD Read The Entire Thread !!!

I refer you to AWD's Post #26 and those that follow!

:shrug:

[dajabr]

89. Pull up! Pull up!!!

Put it in reverse - go back up-thread...

[meow mix]

90. i agree with thread starter.

this is very much how i feel too. =)

[oasis]

91. Dean's challenge to Clinton and the DLC put him on the outs with me.

Dance with who brung ya Dr. Dean.

[WillyT]

92. Post 26, Post 26... Got His Licks, From Post 26 !!!

Gotta be careful around here, we got some smart people, with long memories!

:shrug:

[Moderator]

93. Locking.......

Insinuating or implying that someone is a disruptor is a rule violation. If you feel that someone may be a disruptor, please use the alert button so that the mods and Admins can evaluate the situation.


Thank you.


DU Moderator