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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 02:47 PM
Original message
Shouldn't you trust Vermont's judgement of politicians?
Think about this very carefully. Take an honest look at the politicians Vermont has sent to Washington and America.

Patrick Leahy
Bernie Sanders
Jim Jeffords

Are these politicians you like and support? Do you trust them to represent Americans in a way you can be proud of? The next time you are considering attacking Howard Dean for some ridiculous, petty and unfair reason or make some rude comment about Vermont, remember what we've contributed to this country.

The same voters who gave you Patrick Leahy, Bernie Sanders and Jim Jeffords have given their seal of approval to Howard Dean by electing him to the legislature, as Lt. Governor and then re-elected him as governor 5 times in a row. Knowing what you do about the guys we send to Washington, why on earth would anyone think we'd offer you anything less in a presidential candidate?

Vermont voters know a good thing when we see it, and Howard Dean has earned our respect and admiration. Why shouldn't you trust Vermont voters?
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MMT Donating Member (135 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. No. That seems as silly to me as saying that because LBJ
Edited on Sat Jan-31-04 02:50 PM by MMT
was a great president from Texas we should think Bush is too.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
29. plus, dean was elected with fewer votes each time he ran
and now there is a pubbie gov....
hmmmm....maybe they do have something to teach us
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mtlipsc Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. That's because Dean was a moderate
Umpty-ump years ago I had a divorce lawyer tell me that the sign of a fair settlement is when both parties think they got a raw deal.
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quinnox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
2. no offense, but this is one of the
weirdest arguments I have seen here in awhile.
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jsw_81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
3. Sanders is a socialist
And Jeffords only became an independent so he could get his name in the papers when the Senate was evenly divided.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #3
31. If Kerry was a socialist
we would finally have a decent candidate!
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
4. I trust Mass more
.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
5. Oh please..they also sent Calvin Coolidge
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jsw_81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Not to mention Chester Arthur
He was so bad that he couldn't even win re-nomination as an incumbent president!
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. Coolidge and Authur were not sent by today's Vermont voters
So they don't count. The people who elected those guys are, um, dead. :D
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jsw_81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. The people of Vermont just elected a Republican governor
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mtlipsc Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #16
33. That's because the vote was split by a 3rd party candidate
Shades of Nader...
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nancyharris Donating Member (637 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
6. To quote another Vermont politician:
What legislation did these guys ever pass in Congress?
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
7. I don't doubt Dean was good for VT
but VT doesn't come close to representing the rest of the states, big or small. JMO
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #7
37. I do doubt that Dean was good for Vermont
And there are people, "Progressives" who also doubt have expressed such doubts:

Howard Dean: the Progressive Anti-War Candidate?
Some Vermonters Give Their Views
By DONNA BISTER, MARC ESTRIN
and RON JACOBS

I know that a lot of you are going to vote for Dean -- he talks a good game; he can be charismatic and charming. But I'm warning you. This man will tell you what you want to hear, or at least tell you something that has some little kernel of something that you can interpret as support for the things that are important to you. But when the time comes to stand up and lead on the issue, to take on the money interests and backsliders in his own party, that stiff little spine will turn into a slinky.

If you vote for him, it's your job to stand behind him with a poker and keep him headed in the right direction. Don't give him any honeymoon period, either--keep the pressure on from the second you drop that ballot in the box. The minute you relax, he's going to turn right back into what he really is...a privileged, arrogant, middle of the road republican. Put your political energy into getting some truly progressive folks into the House and Senate, and into State legislatures around the country so that there will be more pressure from more directions. We need to get together our sophisticated progressive thinkers to develop policy ideas in every area, so that we're ready with real, well-thought out counter-proposals for the incremental changes a Dean administration might put forth. If you feel you must, support Dean, do--but then go do the work necessary to make real change.

http://www.counterpunch.org/jacobs08292003.html

Vermont Governors of the Modern Era, Subjective Rating and Evaluation;
Brief Comments on Their Respective Contributions
by Michael J. Badamo




*Howard Dean:

Howard Dean is clearly the runt of this litter. Dean is shallow, glib, mean spirited and overly ambitious yet Vermonters continue to reward him with term after term. On issues that matter, Dean is regressive and responsive only to the needs of elite vested interests. Taking his lead from the new generation of grossly hypocritical, Bill Clinton type Democrats, Dean mouths the ancient words of Democratic Party idealism but then repudiates labor and the poor confidant that they have no where else to go. Big money motivates Howard Dean, a spoiled brat rich kid from Long Island who always gets his own way.

Dean has never had serious opposition in any election campaign. He slid into the Lieutenant Governor's office and took over the top job when Snelling died. He has won easily since because Republicans like to vote for him while their own Party candidates have been either little known or hopelessly right wing.

Of our six modern governors over the last thirty five years, Deane Davis gets my vote for number one, definitely a good guy. I'll rank Phil Hoff a not too shabby number two because Vermont really needed a good kick in the ass. From there, they go down fast. Dick Snelling gets a grudging number three because he represented stability and administrative competence. We'll give Madeline Kunin number four simply because she was less of a snake oil salesman than Tom Salmon, our choice for number five. Howard Dean, of course, is the worst in modern memory.

http://www.sover.net/~auc/6govs.htm

Those who know Dean say he’s no classic liberal
By ROSS SNEYD


...Rivers blames Dean for helping a third political party to flourish in Vermont that many say siphons votes from Democrats. "The Progressive Party gained some momentum during his years as governor because he was so conservative," Rivers said...


http://premium1.fosters.com/2003/news/may_03/may_19/news/reg_vt0519a.asp


Criticism from the Left
If Republican criticism is somewhat muted, Dean has his share of critics on the left. Vermont, it must be noted is the home of Bernie Sanders, the socialist former Mayor of Burlington, who has served as the state's lone congressman since January 1991. Green Party presidential nominee Ralph Nader achieved his second best showing in the 2000 campaign in Vermont, 6.9 percent (Alaska was 10.1 percent). That same year Anthony Pollina, the Progressive candidate for governor, garnered 9.5 percent of the vote. In short, the left is a significant force in Vermont politics.

Pollina, now running for lieutenant governor, criticizes Dean for not putting enough money into the state colleges. "The fact is that over the last decade we have consciously underfunded or refused to fund our state colleges adequately," he says. Pollina also offers a detailed critique of Dean's approach to doing health care through expanded Medicaid, stating, "I feel like we're kind of moving blindly toward some kind of what he would call universal coverage." "There's no plan; there's no cost containment. Providers are not adequately reimbursed and it becomes a sort of a political hot potato for the legislature every year or two," Pollina says.

Progressives also find much to fault in Dean's record on agriculture. Lee Light, who with husband Bob runs the Hollister Hill Farm in the Marshfield area, states, "He's been governor for 11 years and we've lost a lot of farms, and we've also been a state that hasn't fought against the bovine growth hormone factory farms... He has a commissioner of agriculture that hasn't bucked that trend toward bigger agriculture. The Agriculture Department he never fully funds; he's always cutting the budget." Likewise Rep. David Zuckerman, leader of the four Progressives in the House and an organic vegetable farmer, states, "He's done almost nothing for agriculture." Zuckerman says that slaughterhouses have been closing, and there has been very little money to help them upgrade; that transition money is needed to help farms convert to organic; that there is a need for an organic dairy bottling plant; and that Vermont should be kept free of genetically modified organisms.

Dean has butted heads with the Conservation Law Foundation, which pursues a litigious approach to environmental issues. Sandra Levine, staff attorney for the organization concedes, "I think he's done a good job in the area of farmland protection..." However Levine adds, "He's fallen behind in terms of enforcement, clean up, and keeping Lake Champlain clean and promoting renewable energy, and I think his record has been mixed in terms of sprawl."

http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/dean/dean0702/deanmain.html

Marriage Issue Takes Center Stage at the Statehouse

Dean is out of touch with folks. I’m pretty sure that separate but equal isn’t going to fly,” said Judy Sargent of Marshfield, VT. “We should save ourselves a lot of trouble and time and just make it marriage.”

http://www.mountainpridemedia.org/feb2000/news_centerstage.htm


Senate adds money to budget, angers Dean

Even the governor’s closest allies in the Senate ignored him. Sen. Nancy Chard, D-Windham, recommended restoring $440,000 to one of the pharmaceutical assistance programs and the Senate voted 22-7 to go along with her.

“I’ve become convinced that we have a philosophical difference between the governor, the Republican House and this Senate,” said Senate President Pro Tempore Peter Shumlin, D-Windham.

“The governor and the Republican House want to balance this budget on the backs of our most vulnerable Vermonters. The Senate wants to balance this budget on the backs of the pharmaceutical companies who are charging too much for drugs.”

http://timesargus.com/Legislature/Story/46513.html

Dean bites Democrats



As Dean becomes a top-tier candidate, however, his casual approach to facts and abusive tactics against his opponents could get him into serious trouble -- {b]and severely damage Vermont's reputation for political civility and intellectual honesty.


http://www.sover.net/~auc/deanbites.htm


For the defense
August 16, 2001


Just two years ago Dean tried to prevent Appel from accepting a $150,000 federal grant aimed at assisting defendants with mental disabilities. For Dean to block a government agency from receiving federal money was unusual in itself. But Dean’s openly expressed bias against criminal defendants provided a partial explanation.

Dean has made no secret of his belief that the justice system gives all the breaks to defendants. Consequently, during the 1990s, state’s attorneys, police, and corrections all received budget increases vastly exceeding increases enjoyed by the defender general’s office. That meant the state’s attorneys were able to round up ever increasing numbers of criminal defendants, but the public defenders were not given comparable resources to respond.

Making the case for adequate funding of the criminal defense system will be one of the principal jobs of the new defender general. Valerio, an experienced criminal defense lawyer and the incoming president of the Vermont Bar Association, will owe his appointment as defender general to Dean. But he will owe it to the people of Vermont to push Dean to include in his budget adequate resources so the state’s public defenders can do their jobs.

Public defenders handle most of the criminal defense work in the state. It is a thankless task in some ways. But one of the important differences between democracies and police states is a fair justice system. Without it, police round up people and throw them in jail as a matter of routine. Law becomes, not a guarantor of justice, but a method of intimidation.

http://rutlandherald.com/Archive/Articles/Article/31792

Dean support off base


I am writing to express my deep disappointment in the recent fundraising letter from Vermonters for Civil Unions, Inc. effectively endorsing Governor Howard Dean in his bid for reelection. Their call to make qualifying contributions to Dean’s campaign smacks of pandering and a desire to maintain the privilege of the few rather then seek justice for all. Governor Dean has clearly stated on any number of occasions that he does not support marriage rights for all people and that he does support maintaining an unjust, two-tiered apartheid system in which those of us who are deemed to be abnormal are not to be treated equally under the law.

...Governor Dean has proven that he’ll only support us when he’s trapped or it’s convenient. For example, his recent interview with OITM where he virtually begged the queer community to support him over Anthony Pollina is simple, pathetic fear-mongering. He feels trapped and he comes to us for help. It’s truly depressing to see the privileged elites of the GLBT community and the privileged elites of the Democratic Party falling all over themselves in an effort to suck up to one another. The Governor should be ashamed of himself for attempting to scare queer folk and progressives into voting for him.

http://www.mountainpridemedia.org/jul2000/letters.htm

There seem to be a lot of Vermonters, from newspaper editors, to progressive and liberal electeed officials, to gay citizens, to heterosexual citizens, who do not think that Dean did good for Vermont.

Given the nature of the state, small and relatively rural, and the lack of direct information available from that state which goes back more than a few years online, to Deans own selaing of his records as governor because:

According to press reports, when asked why he decided to shield his gubernatorial papers from public scrutiny, Dean told Vermont Public Radio, "Well, there are future political considerations. We didn't want anything embarrassing in the papers at a critical time in any future endeavor."

http://www.judicialwatch.org/archive/newsletter/2003/1203c.shtml

One must give credence to the idea that perhaps Dean did not do all that much good for the state of Vermont, except perhaps in his own vivid imagination, and all that the vast majority of voters have to go on is Deans own reports of his demi-god like performance as Govenror. The voter cannot easily check Vermont News Sources beyong 1999. They cannot check Deans records to put their minds to rest about his relations with special interest. All they have is Dean saying trust me.

The small state issue is of importance, but not for the reasons cited. The real reasons is that a relatively unknown person, who has gone to great effort to prevent the voters of 2004 from finding out anything about him that he does not want them to know, is attempting to take over the most powerful seat of power in the world, again with only the words trust me to make a decision on. There are more than enough questionable articles about Dean from Vermonters who had to watch his performance as Governor, and found his decisions and his politics questionable.

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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
9. going by this logic
should somebody not vote for John Edwards since North Carolina elected Jesse Helms and Elizabeth Dole?
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. to a point yes
to the extent that Edward has lowsy views on things we consider important and gets them due to having come from there, then yes.
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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. "lowsy" views?
So he got these "lowsy" (whatever "lowsy" means) views simply because he's from NC? I guess if he were the Senator from New Jersey, he wouldn't have voted for the Patriot A-- okay well John Corzine did vote for it.. Okay, what about if he were a Senator from New York, he definitely wouldn't have supported the Iraq Wa--, oh yeah Clinton voted for that. Region has little to do with how one views things. (P.S. Chapel Hill is in North Carolina, and it's one of the most liberal areas of the United States)
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. He would have voted for DOMA
and is all over the map on gay rights issues. I consider that lowsy.
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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. wrong
Edited on Sat Jan-31-04 03:26 PM by Neo Progressive
JENNINGS: OK, thank you, sir.


Senator Edwards, President Bush, as you know, is worried. He said it again in the State of the Union address the other night that the Defense of Marriage Act is not strong enough, as he says, to protect the institution of marriage.


You were not in the Senate in 1996 when it passed overwhelmingly.


Senator Kerry was one of only 14 senators who voted against it. I'd like to know from you whether or not you think he was right or wrong, and why?


EDWARDS: I think he was right.
I think he was right because what happened with the Defense of Marriage Act is it took away the power of states, like Vermont, to be able to do what they chose to do about civil unions, about these kinds of marriage issues.


These are issues that should be left -- Massachusetts, for example, has just made a decision, the supreme court at least has made a decision, that embraces the notion of gay marriage.


I think these are decisions that the states should have the power to make. And the Defense of Marriage Act, as I understand it -- you're right, I wasn't there when it was passed -- but as I understand it, it would have taken away that power. And I think that's wrong. That power should not be taken away from the states.




so if he believes Kerry was right to vote against it, WHY THE HELL WOULD HE VOTE FOR IT? Give me your logic here, since right now it looks pretty "lowsy"
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. That isn't what he said when he ran in 1998
Edited on Sat Jan-31-04 03:30 PM by dsc
and yes I know that as I didn't give him money for that precise reason.

On edit, it is yet another example of why I don't trust this man on that issue. I refused to give money to any candidate who had gone on record as supporting DOMA which is why neither Kucinich whose district I lived in, nor Edwards who was running against a man I wanted defeated very badly, got a dime from me that year.
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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Bush said he was opposed to nation building in 2000
Opinions change, some for the better (like Edwards' position on DOMA) and some for the worse (like Bush's position on nation building).
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. My point is I wasn't wrong
as you claimed me to have been.
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MAlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #20
34. Nation Building
Real nation building done well, is a good thing. The term itself is inherently good. Nations vs warlords/dictators/chaos.

"We must make the world safe for democracy" -Woodrow Wilson
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MMT Donating Member (135 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Kucinich?? Citation, please?
If he had ever been in favor of DOMA I'm sure the lgb-rights organizations would mention such a major change when they praise him today. But they don't, so how about a reputable citation?
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. I have provided this link several times.
I will see if I can find it again. I heard it on several occasions personally.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Here it is
http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/1058348272157840.xml

Washington - Rep. Dennis Kucinich, whose political stances are attracting support from an array of liberal and celebrity donors, yesterday came out in support of same-sex marriage.

Kucinich's strong backing of gay marriage appears to mark a change in his thinking.

As a candidate for Congress in 1996, he said he opposed a change in law to allow same-sex marriages.

Incidently this article was linked on his site which leads me to believe he agrees with its content.

http://www.kucinich.us/news.php
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BeatleBoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
14. They are all awesome
And I am supporting John Kerry.

:7
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seaglass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
15. They're insiders, why should we trust them?
I actually like all three but this is one dopey argument.
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leyton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
18. Wait...
we're supposed to trust Vermont but not Iowa and New Hampsire?

I'll trust my own judgement, and go with Edwards or maybe Kerry.
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XanaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. Yes
following this logic, yes.

Forget pesky old NH and IA. Don't trust them.

Just trust Vermonters' judgement. But not all of them. Some of them.

All Vermonters are equal, but some Vermonters' judgements are more equal than others.

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XanaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
23. Okay, let's look at some Vermonters' views:
Howard Dean: the Progressive Anti-War Candidate?
Some Vermonters Give Their Views
By DONNA BISTER, MARC ESTRIN
and RON JACOBS
(The Editorial Collective of the Old North End RAG)



"...Donna:

I know that a lot of you are going to vote for Dean -- he talks a good game; he can be charismatic and charming. But I'm warning you. This man will tell you what you want to hear, or at least tell you something that has some little kernel of something that you can interpret as support for the things that are important to you. But when the time comes to stand up and lead on the issue, to take on the money interests and backsliders in his own party, that stiff little spine will turn into a slinky."

http://www.counterpunch.org/jacobs08292003.html


But something tell me these Vermonters' opinions won't count. :eyes:




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mtlipsc Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #23
35. Right. They won't count because most Vermonters don't agree.
Look, I live here. After 11 years as Governor, everybody has SOME gripe about Howard. But given what he had to work with (we ain't rich around here), he was a very good manager of this state. I've even had small businessmen who ran afoul of the environmental rules say, albeit grudgingly, that he was a fine governor overall. He left the state with a rainy day fund that's been holding us nicely afloat since he left. Meanwhile other states are on the bread lines...
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
27. well....I live in AZ for one thing.....
and this idea has the scent of desperation to me....


would you trust another state to decide for you?
Like...say Iowa or NH?
No, I didn't think so.

Peace
DR
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arewethereyet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
28. gee, thanks for reminding me
we should have seen all this coming !
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
30. Every year Dean ran for govenror
Edited on Sat Jan-31-04 06:56 PM by Nicholas_J
Th percentage that he won by kept getting smaller until he almost lost in 2000, javing to resort to scare tactics to get gays to switch from the Vermont Progressive party:

Dena didnt view Republicans as a danger to him, but he viewed Liberals and Progressives as the greatest danger to his last campaign:

Dean on Civil Unions:


Dean: You can forget about that (national office). It certainly isn’t going to help it any unless someone is looking for someone who says what they think and sticks to their word. That’s not as valued in Washington as it is elsewhere.

There are a number of Democrats and a number of Catholics who I have lost the support of, and I need to get that support back. The biggest problem for me (in November) is (Progressive) Anthony (Pollina). Anthony is going to take votes away from me and he’s not going to take any votes away from (Republican) Ruth (Dwyer). So actually the better he does, the more likely it is that Ruth Dwyer is going to be Governor.


Some Vermont gays responded to Deans attempts at fear tactics very harshly:

Dean support off base


...Governor Dean has proven that he’ll only support us when he’s trapped or it’s convenient. For example, his recent interview with OITM where he virtually begged the queer community to support him over Anthony Pollina is simple, pathetic fear-mongering. He feels trapped and he comes to us for help. It’s truly depressing to see the privileged elites of the GLBT community and the privileged elites of the Democratic Party falling all over themselves in an effort to suck up to one another. The Governor should be ashamed of himself for attempting to scare queer folk and progressives into voting for him...




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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
36. Most people like to make up their own minds, and they're choosing Kerry
Edited on Sat Jan-31-04 07:01 PM by Feanorcurufinwe
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