What God can I believe in that does NOT have a Personification?

[Occulus]

The God I believe in does not have a PErsonification, or a Book, or a Holy Ghost, or a Son, or anything of the kind.

The God I believe in created everything, including the many religions (I'll get to that), the sciences, and mathematics.

The math my God created MUST BE TRUE, otherwise our Universe would cease to exist. Math.......... math is "like that". For all I hate math, it simply "is".

My God created light, made it a rudimentary speed limit, and challenged us to break it. We don't know how, yet, in the same way a child playing with Legos doesn't know how to build a full-size barn.

My God created languages, not that we would be seperated, but that we would have a strong base for when we encountered Others (not of this planet) who speak a different language. My God gave us people who have linguistic ability, so that we may understand those from other worlds, after gicving some effort from both ends to understand each other.

MY God doesn't punish, because He recognises our flaws and out falliability- especially since He created our souls. I refuse to say that my God created my form, because that's not what my God tells me.

My God doesn't "speak to me" but through His own creation: from grass to gravity, MY GOD IS SUPREME.

MY God is far, far, and inconceivably greater than the Christian, Muslim, or Jewish God. My God reigns supreme over their gods, even as He IS their gods.

My God is ALL Gods, and therefore every statement about my God is true, or false.

My God will judge those statemenjts, but NOT the people making them.

All people, under MY God, shall judge themselves.

--------------


The Christian God cannot hold a CANDLE to my God. MY God is the Creator.... the God of the Christians is but a Face of that Creator.

THIS IS NOT AN OPINION. These are the facts of modern religion, as I see them.

THERE IS ONE GOD, AND HE IS ALL GODS. YOUR RELIGION HOLDS BUT A SMALL, PARTIAL PIECE OF THE TRUTH.

"Christianity", "Islam", "Paganism", "Zulu", etc.... these major religiongs MEAN LITTLE as far as the Ultimate Truth goes, but... string ALL RELIGIONS TOGETHER.... and you may have a sense of SOME OF the truth.

The real truth of the Universe, therefore, (and I truly do believe this much), is FAR, FAR GREATER than any one religion can understand, comprehend, or interpret.

Why, then, do so many religions claim to hold the "ultimate truth"?

Why do we go to war over something that does not exist?

[murdoch]

1. Buddhism?

I don't think Buddhism has the concept of a personal God.

There are different kinds of Buddhism though...

[Selatius]

2. Are you a Unitarian or a Deist?

You sound like one from one of those religions. Many of the Founders of the US were Deists and Unitarians. They had some revolutionary ideas for their time.

Actually, Unitarianism and Deism are more like free-thought philosophies than true religions because there is no dogmatic laws attached and superstition.

[Occulus]

6. I ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to label myself.

I've often felt, for a long, long time, that my religious beliefs contradict that of others.

For the very first time, I'm saying, "No."

I refuse to lebel myself; there are too many physics discoveries being made for me to say, "God is all."

I now require proof, and the proof is becoming too complex for religion to explain.

[Selatius]

10. That's perfectly fine, but...

if you read some of the works of those people I mentioned on the issue of God and the Bible, you'd see what I am seeing: You sound like they did on many points.

[Occulus]

14. I haven't read those

at the moment.

This is a system inside the overall discussion.

I absolutely refuse to depend upon outside morality to define my own morality.

[crispini]

3. You sound a bit like a Buddhist,

although Buddhism doesn't necessarily (depends on the branch) posit a "creator" God... the universe just IS.

I like to think that the universe IS Buddha.

[Occulus]

12. But I'm not

That's the thing.

I inherently respect ALL religions as posessiong a piece of the Puzzle of Human Existence. They ALL have One Reason.

Why can't those One Reasons..... intermesh?

Why can't they work together?

Suppose, for a moment, that evolution is the tool God uses on a regular basis to ensure many, many species will very? IF AN INFINITE GOD, WHY NOT AN INFINITE SYSTEM? Because THAT's what evolution is. An infinite system, active outside God, that God created to act outside Himself!

It's a PERFECT SYSTEM, just like God!!!

:wtf:

[crispini]

25. I've actually given this some thought, because

I'm interested in religions. From the outside, I can look at many religions and see that they "work" for their adherants -- when practiced, they bring them joy, the practitioners feel that "their prayers are answered," and they make people feel their lives have meaning. Yet many of these religions say that "this is the only path." Even some sects of Buddhism will say that. Some will temper it and say, "this is the BEST path." When, obviously, it is NOT the only path... because other people's "paths" work for them.

So why do they all say this?

I think some of it has to do with the fact that a religion, in order to exist, also has to be an organization of people. I think sometimes that an organization has its own energy -- wants to grow, get better, attract good adherents, energy, money and time. I also think an organization CAN be useful for people who are on certain stages of a path.

Yet sometimes I also wonder if you have to BELIEVE -- and I mean, REALLY believe-- that you are practicing the "correct" way in order to reap the benefits of "faith." I haven't decided about this myself yet.

I have spent time practicing as both a Christian and as a Buddhist, and I saw that the people who were most happy with their practices and able to reap benefits of them were those people who had soaked themselves in the practice, believe in it in their bones. Does "faith" require exclusion of all other beliefs in order to really take fire? Does "faith" require a system to cling to like a vine? I don't know.

Sorry to ramble -- as a seeker, these questions interest me. Why do we have religions? Is there any kind of "objective" truth there? What is the best way to live?

[lvx35]

4. Its all about recognizing that humans can't see ultimate truth

for sure. Although you've also got to recognize math, light, and all the other stuff you talked about are human desriptions of an ultimatly unknowable reality, but yeah...The heart of all the problems with religious insanity is in human beings claiming to have ultimate truth.

[Occulus]

8. The problem I have with that is math

Math is ALWAYS true. 2+2=4. ALWAYS.

If the Christian God-or ANY God- altered that, the Universe would likely end.

WTF?

[tocqueville]

13. you should check some quantum mechanics

things can be and cannot be at the same time. The mere fact that you are looking at an atom changes its behaviour. Stuff can be in several places at the same time. Probably both in the future and the past at the same time too...

in another universe 2+2 = 5. And it makes sense in that universe.

math is a language. As all languages it has probably flaws.

nothing is absolutely true. Or at least it's very difficult to prove it.

[Occulus]

17. OH I KNOW

And it's FASCINATING. In fact, those faCts are what led me to post this whole thread.

I'm a staunch supporter of investigation into quantum mechanics.

Have you read the Heim theory? It's on other threads here.
I dearly love bleeding edge physics.

and as you said, nothing is ABSOLUTELY TRUE........ there is no 100% probability. Never.

[lvx35]

34. You've got to look at Godel

and his incompleteness theorem for a full math picture, IMHO. Basically its all based on assumptions (math) and there are always more assumptions, the system is never complete. But that's not intended to negate what you are saying. 2 + 2 = 4 is one of those axiomatic assumptions, but its based on a real common experience we all share. There is something out there, something true, something absolute. That's what I call God, I just have the humility at this point to share my opinion but not to advance any "absolute truth"! :)

[tocqueville]

5. My God is bigger than yours ? nt

[Occulus]

9. Not exactly.

It's more like, "My God is mathematically provable, and by the way, my God is Math"


BUT NOT QUITE.


There's ALWAYS more, and faith has a lot to do with it.

I wonder exactly HOW, mathematically, faith healing works.....?

[tocqueville]

16. sorry but it sounded a bit like it....

size doesn't matter, it's how you use it. The message is important not the bearer.

[Occulus]

20. Math does not depend upon size or power

Math depends strictly upon TRUTH. A proof is true....... or it is NOT. There are no "two ways", as in spin... OR as in religious belief.

Math is ALWAYS true... or it ALWAYS is not. Not even the Christian God can make 2+2=5.

I make that statement as a literal AND, FROM THE POV OF MODERN PHYSICS, PROVABLY TRUE STATEMENT.

If there are any physicists out ther who can prove that 2+2/=4 in our Universe, PLEASE let me know.

Unless you are dealing with quantum mechanics, in which case, all bets are off....

[adigal]

7. Sounds like you would fit with Unitarian Universalists

They are non-denominational/non-doctrinaire actually, here is their website:

www.uua.org/

[Occulus]

11. I'm very "this is there, explain it, without religion"...........

But I still believe in a God.


Why?

[Hissyspit]

18. Habit.

Culture conditioning.

Higher Critical Thinking Processes Recognizing Missing Truths And Trying To Find The Missing Truths.

Lots of reasons possible that are not indicators of the actual of existance of "God."

[ismnotwasm]

15. Do not harm, and do as thou wilt

Make up a God. Make up a religion. Make up rituals. Paint a little statue of a dragon gold and make it your God. Math mathematics and music your God. Nothing is stopping you. Do what you want.

Personally, I like string theory, bubble universes, and the possibility of intelligent life on far away planets, which has nothing to do with God, but it sure is cool to think about, even if I'll never understand the science or physics.

[Occulus]

21. ALL that had to do with God

or the Goddess, or the Gods.

MY point was that to tie one's religious beliefs to one single dogma is simply absurd.

I sincerely apologize if I offended anyone at all.

THAT GOES FOR THE DU DAY CREW.

[alcibiades_mystery]

19. VALIS

n/t

[Occulus]

22. VALIS? Please elaborate.

[alcibiades_mystery]

23. Oh just fucking google it

oy

[radio4progressives]

24. why do you have to "believe" in something that isn't rational?

[KittyWampus]

26. Darling you are a Pantheist ala Plato, Pythagorus,Alchemists, Qabalists

and see also Idealists such as Royce, Pierce etc.

[Crunchy Frog]

27. You sound like you could be a Pythagorean.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagoreans

[renaldo]

28. possibilities ... The Urantia Book

I like to read the Urantia Book from time to time. It is Jesusonian, but is entirely consistent with modern science, evolution, dark energy, black holes, and a sort-of Galactic Federation - but best of all - it confirms life on other planets. It has consistently made sense to my skeptical, scientific oriented mind, and explains the origins of our present condition in terms of the Lucifer Rebellion. I think that there is lots of truth there.

Check out Paper 100

http://www.urantia.org/

[nemo137]

29. I've always liked the simplest description of God

"God is." Which is one of the things I love most about the Hebrew Bible. When you strip away all the epithets (El Shaddai, Adonai, etc), you get down to his answer to Moses, "I am."

I love your concept of God and math and creation. It's very similar to mine, oddly.

[BrewerJohn]

30. Others have felt much the same way...

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/einstein_religion.html

[liberalpragmatist]

31. Buddhism or Hinduism?

Although Buddhism is divided over whether there even is a God, as Buddha tended to dismiss God as irrelevant.

In Hinduism, God is Brahman, a universal spirit that is both material and immaterial. Think of s/he/it as a "life-force" that runs through everything. The Hindu pantheon of Gods are in Hinduism seen as human manifestations of the one universal essence - Brahman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman

[radwriter0555]

32. WE get along fine without gods... it's time to put away the ancient belief

system and move on to listening to your heart, and doing the right thing.

The only higher power you need is the courage of your convictions and beliefs.

[daleo]

33. This all sounds rather like Plato. n/t

[Lexingtonian]

35. My God is humbler and smaller than your God.

The only way to hear His words is to find a silence and a sensitivity people mostly find no time or occasion for.

He is so small and quiet in the way He lives that most people don't know that He's there, so busy are they with Big Things and Great Gods and the Universe.

I don't know what He has done or thinks about the sand and stars, the skies, the plants and animals, the oceans, or times gone by; He likes but never really dwells on them.

My God is so small that He lives in the one place in the world that gets lost all the time and vanishes from sight only to reappear in our better moments, the one place no great God Of The Universe would live, and that is the human heart.

When found, He never seems to lack an inspiring measure of passion, or mercy, or justice, or lovingkindness, or charity, or humility, or understanding, or a touch of wisdom. He slips into gazes and gestures, dreams and vows, moonlight and sunrises, imagination and embraces. He revels in gentleness and creativity, in service and joyfulness.

My God is humbler and smaller than your God.

[Briarius]

39. I like you god better

:D

[Baconfoot]

36. "every statement about my God is true,or false." First, you meant AND.

At least, the rest of what you said makes it seem as though you meant AND.

Secondly, if you DID mean "and" (Every statement about my God is true AND false.) then you have said something ridiculous. There is no "transcending" logic. You can SAY or TYPE those sorts of words, but you will have said or typed gibberish. The law of noncontradiction is not optional.

Thirdly if you meant "or" as you typed then the statement is trivially true.
Even if all statements about your God were false, it would still be true that every statement about your God was either true or false.

[SpiralHawk]

37. Gitchee Manitou

Part of your heritage as someone who lives on Turtle Island (North America).

Never personified. Seen as a Force that exists in all of Creation, including each human -- it is the sum total of the spirit that lives in every person, plant, animal, stone, what have you...

[LWolf]

38. Fascinating.

You've described the creator well. I'd go one step further, and not refer to creator as HIM. Or HER, for that matter. Creator is whole, and therefore neither male nor female, but both. Androgynous.

What's really fascinating are all the responses to someone who says "I refuse to be labeled." They immediately try to give you a label......

I believe this stems from human insecurity with the vague or ambiguous, the abstract. The human craving for literal, black/white, concrete "answers" that lead to the feeling of safety and security, and allow us to sort everything into categories: good/bad, us/them, right/wrong, etc.. Your statement defies polarity, and thus confounds.

I also believe that all faiths are founded on one small facet of the whole. I honor the facet they are living, while continuing to move around to view and learn from the other facets as well.

When people say, "You must be a buddhist, a deist, a pantheist, a......."

you can reply, "I am all of those things and I am none of those things."

[obreaslan]

40. I believe you have but one choice......

There is no emotion; there is peace.
There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no passion; there is serenity.
There is no chaos; there is harmony.
There is no death; there is the Force.

"Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter..." -Yoda

.

[Ian David]

41. Check-out Scientific Pantheism

All I Ever Needed to Know I Learned from Babylon 5
We are starstuff, we are the universe made manifest, trying to figure itself out;
as we have learned, sometimes the universe requires a change of ...
http://www-astro.physics.ox.ac.uk/~rmb/allB5.html



Scientific Pantheism:
Reverence of Nature and Cosmos
by Paul Harrison.


A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed
by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe
hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.
Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot (1994)

Are You a Pantheist?

When you look at the night sky or at the images of the Hubble Space Telescope, are you filled with feelings of awe and wonder at the overwhelming beauty and power of the universe?
When you are in the midst of nature, in a forest, by the sea, on a mountain peak - do you ever feel a sense of the sacred, like the feeling of being in a vast cathedral?
Do you believe that humans should be a part of Nature, rather than set above it?

If you can answer yes to all of these questions, then you have pantheistic leanings.

Are you sceptical about a "God" other than Nature and the wider Universe?
Yet do you feel an emotional need for a recognition of something greater than your own self or than the human race?

If you answer yes to these additional questions then pantheism is very probably your natural religious home. If you want to see why others chose it, then check Why I am a pantheist .

More:
http://www.pantheism.net/paul/


Also:

The Faithless Community - No Fear. No Hate. Faith Free.
... They always matter." - Ambassador G'Kar, Babylon 5. It sounds like something ... The
Universe is Divine and should be Revered." Scientific Pantheism= "The Universe ...
http://www.faithless.org/community/index.php?showtopic=1525

[Ian David]

42. The Affirmations of Humanism: A Statement of Principles

The Affirmations of Humanism:
A Statement of Principles

* We are committed to the application of reason and science to the understanding of the universe and to the solving of human problems.

* We deplore efforts to denigrate human intelligence, to seek to explain the world in supernatural terms, and to look outside nature for salvation.

* We believe that scientific discovery and technology can contribute to the betterment of human life.

* We believe in an open and pluralistic society and that democracy is the best guarantee of protecting human rights from authoritarian elites and repressive majorities.

* We are committed to the principle of the separation of church and state.

* We cultivate the arts of negotiation and compromise as a means of resolving differences and achieving mutual understanding.

* We are concerned with securing justice and fairness in society and with eliminating discrimination and intolerance.

* We believe in supporting the disadvantaged and the handicapped so that they will be able to help themselves.

* We attempt to transcend divisive parochial loyalties based on race, religion, gender, nationality, creed, class, sexual orientation, or ethnicity, and strive to work together for the common good of humanity.

* We want to protect and enhance the earth, to preserve it for future generations, and to avoid inflicting needless suffering on other species.

* We believe in enjoying life here and now and in developing our creative talents to their fullest.

* We believe in the cultivation of moral excellence.

* We respect the right to privacy. Mature adults should be allowed to fulfill their aspirations, to express their sexual preferences, to exercise reproductive freedom, to have access to comprehensive and informed health-care, and to die with dignity.

* We believe in the common moral decencies: altruism, integrity, honesty, truthfulness, responsibility. Humanist ethics is amenable to critical, rational guidance. There are normative standards that we discover together. Moral principles are tested by their consequences.

* We are deeply concerned with the moral education of our children. We want to nourish reason and compassion.

* We are engaged by the arts no less than by the sciences.

* We are citizens of the universe and are excited by discoveries still to be made in the cosmos.

* We are skeptical of untested claims to knowledge, and we are open to novel ideas and seek new departures in our thinking.

* We affirm humanism as a realistic alternative to theologies of despair and ideologies of violence and as a source of rich personal significance and genuine satisfaction in the service to others.

* We believe in optimism rather than pessimism, hope rather than despair, learning in the place of dogma, truth instead of ignorance, joy rather than guilt or sin, tolerance in the place of fear, love instead of hatred, compassion over selfishness, beauty instead of ugliness, and reason rather than blind faith or irrationality.

* We believe in the fullest realization of the best and noblest that we are capable of as human beings.

***

For more information about Secular Humanism, please see the following:

A Secular Humanist Declaration Issued In 1980 By The Council for Democratic and Secular Humanism
(now the Council for Secular Humanism)
http://www.secularhumanism.org/intro/declaration.html

Personally, I see no need to seek a "higher power," but I understand why others might. I can think of nothing more noble than the principles stated above, except for following those principles without needing to fear punishment from an invisible man in the sky.