Is calling our Democratic leadership in DC cowards useful?

[Jeffersons Ghost]

As a disabled Vietnam Vet. I'm old enough not to mince words. I meet lots of other vets at the VA when I go there for health-care. One of my oldest friends is in a wheel-chair from service connected disability. I just read pure propaganda about PTSD that bashes Dems, here at DU and it got lots of votes. What's up with so many votes on boards that divide and conquer our Party? Can freepers vote at DU?

Anyhow, this brave soul went on and on criticizing our Dem war hero leadership. They then lied about PTSD, something I'm very familiar with on a personal level. They acted as if us Vets had to "argue" with the VA about whether we had it or not, which is a lie. It was recognized from the start. In fact, it was Nam' that changed the disorder to a recognized mental disability. In WW 2, it was called "shell-shock" a problem that only cowards experienced. I'm glad our generation at least fixed that misconception. What was highly debated and found to be "safe for humans" while it was devastating to plants was Agent Orange. I used to know a few Vets who "argued" about that with the govt. but they "argue" no more. None are alive today to debate.

I see what many of you mean about all our leaders that "cower" for a living. Many of those Democratic Party "cowards" won silver and bronze stars in Nam' for bravery, unlike our draft-dodging Repuke leadership, which is MUCH braver than our cowards when the camera is running, just as we can now be brave on a message board.

For all you brave souls who sit around attacking our ONLY leadership by calling them "cowards," I want you to know you still have a chance to show how "brave" you are personally and you don't have to support an illegal and immoral invasion to do it. Just move down here to Alabama and help me defend the Democratic Party and what it represents but you better be diplomatic because these red-neck Nazis will gang up on you a beat that brave ass. You might even consider helping me fight racism down here, that's always been a problem in the deep south. Racism is an issue that keeps very poor uneducated white people from supporting our candidates but talk like I see get LOTS of votes on DU, which bashes Democrats in office comes up too... They call our Dem leadership "traitors" but what you call them is about as good and I'm sure repuke will agree with you.

Hey, you can also fall out with those signs like many of us Vietnam "cowards" did after we served! That's like serving your country twice in a row: Any takers? I thought not.

I'm "cowardly" enough to follow people like Kerry, Feingold, Kennedy and Gore but I'm glad for all you "loyal" people still brave enough to undermine our leadership on message boards. You can also post exactly the same message at freeper sites for even more votes and brave supportive comments from people who never actually did anything but criticize and complain.

here's the link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2384996

[ClassWarrior]

1. To Karl Rove.

NGU.

[400Years]

38. Who is criticizing John Conyers or Murtha or Al Gore?

These are the people out there fighting for what we believe in, not the Joementums of the world who deserve criticism.

[ClassWarrior]

41. I'm not talking about legitimate and reasoned criticism of individuals...

...I'm talking about vicious, spiteful trashing that by extension makes our very value system look weak and irrelevant in the eyes of the public.

NGU.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

45. there are even boards criticizing the whole leadership at DU

It's one thing to criticize an individual Dem leader... It's quite another to say the whole leadership is bad... Posts like that are probably posted at other sites... I wonder what would happen if you criticized ANY repukes at right wing places.

[MrBenchley]

2. Clearly, no it's not useful....

except to those who hate Democrats...

[LincolnMcGrath]

88. Especially to those who hate Democrats...

MrHonesty

[blm]

3. Yep - they didn't bother to notice that Kerry endured a helluva lot more

than just lies and criticism in his lifetime, which made it easier to endure taunts throughout the campaign, which the media spun AGAINST him as too weak to respond, instead of too tough to respond.

Once you have shoulder rockets, machine guns and bazookas aimed directly at you, then White Houses of three administrations coming down on you for 20 plus years, using the CIA, FBI, and all their mediawhores in the press calling you a conspiracy theory nut, people wearing purple band-aids just wouldn't have the same effect.

And all the while, Georgie boy had to have his gang of bullies SCREAM about every unkind word directed at him.

Damn - too bad the leftleaning and objective media can't argue their way out of a paperbag when put up against the RW message machine who kicks their ass EVERY DAY of the week and twice on Sundays.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

10. I'll even defend media grunts

I will never, however, defend their chicken-shit owners and and big-money sponsors... After working many years in old-fashioned two-point of view media, I got out of it, right after Clear-Channel interviewed me for the third time, offered me a tour of their facilities and a much higher paying job. One look at that massive propaganda machine made me happy with my lower paying radio job where we had live disc-jockeys with opinions, instead of engineers creating the illusion of live broadcaster in radio and TV. Other media people were braver and more professional than me and stayed in the biz... I promise their personal political views have changed very little, except maybe moved further to the left. If we can make some noise in peaceful assembly using Amendment 1, they are dying to cover it as long as their bosses will let them. You'll also see many are still willing to go to jail to protect a news leak source in the administration.

[samhsarah]

4. So, let me get this straight,

If you criticize Bush, you are a coward (according to the freepers)
If you criticize certain Dems, you are a coward (according to you)

See the correlation here?

I respect the fact that you served your country. I am a veteran of the Navy, myself. That does not give you the right to tell other people here that they have no right to criticize their leadership if they feel their leadership has let them down. If you feel someone has broken the DU rules, by all means hit the alert button and voice your concerns to the mods, but other than that, Democrats are a thinking bunch of people. When people think for themselves, they tend to get differing opinions sometimes. Maybe they have jobs and lives and they CAN'T get down south and fight the fight with you, so they fight the fight where they are and post their opinions on DU. That does not make them cowards and you have no right to tell them how to think.:patriot:

[Jeffersons Ghost]

12. all freepers have the right to free speech

According to the Constitution they can use those rights here at DU. I'm not joking, when I say I'll defend ANYONES right to disagree but will you do the same thing samhsarah? I see YOU DO seem to have the right to tell me "how to think." BTW, are you a war-time vet?

[samhsarah]

17. I am not telling you what to think....

If you believe that we should stand behind every Dem whether or not we disagree with certain things they do, you have every right to believe and express that belief. I am somewhere in the middle of this argument which spawns all the flame wars here at DU. I reserve the right to criticize a certain Dem if I think they are not representing the ideals of the Democratic Party. But on the other hand, I don't think it's a good idea to throw ultimatums at Dems as a whole because of the actions of one or a few. I do think the Dems should stand up more than they have, but on the other hand, I see how hard some of them are trying and they get little to no coverage in the MSM and because of it, some will just make blanket statements that I don't agree with. But those are all MY opinions. I don't try to push them on others. Do a search of all my posts if you want, and you will see that I NEVER have started a thread in which I criticize just about half the people here on DU for what they think. But that is exactly what you just did. Constructive criticism of how people react to our Democratic leaders is one thing. What you did was something completely different and you know it. Vietnam ended in 1975, the same year I was born. Desert storm took place in 1991. I graduated high school in 93. My enlistment ended in 2000, before the WarPigs took over this country. So to answer your question, no I didn't fight in a war. My husband, however, has already been to the gulf once and is scheduled to go back this march. And he is stationed in Mayport, FL., so I know something about what it is like to live around a bunch of redneck freepers who have and will spit on your car if you have an IMPEACH BUSH bumper sticker on it, wait for you outside a store with a crowbar surrounding your car so that when you come walking out with your two small children, you are scared half to death, not allow you to drive onto the base to pick your husband up from work, all because of a bumper sticker. I know what you face living in the south and being a Democrat. It's not easy. It's downright scary sometimes, and, no I haven't fought in a war, so I don't know what that is like but I can only imagine the horror of it. My point is that none of that justifies implying that other people who disagree with you are not brave also. Am I telling you what to think? No. Am I telling you what to post? No. By all means, post away, continue to tell other people how cowardly they really are. I don't think it will get you very far, but that's just my opinion. And as far as me, I will continue to reserve the right to respectfully disagree.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

27. your mistaken...

Pissing people off activates many of them and they aren't frightened anymore by Nazi brown shirts. I knocked on the wrong door in the projects last week... All i said was I'm with the Dem party and they threw this old man on the ground, hurting my arm and ruining my favorite jacket but I don't want a frigging medal... I threw away any I got when I was in during Nam' for personal reasons. I don't need to see any of your posts to know you're true blue sam. It's obvious in this post. Down here in the heat of battle we can't afford to say anything bad about our leaders in DC. this is war! Democratic grunts just do the job and move on to the next door to register more voters.

[samhsarah]

31. Well there's something we can agree on....

THIS IS WAR! And at the end of the day, the most important thing is that we can ALL put our differences aside and fight like hell for the DEMS! :patriot: :toast:

[Jeffersons Ghost]

36. In private conversation

We might agree on a great deal more sam... Just not on public forums.

[ClassWarrior]

39. I can relate to that, JG.

NGU.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

44. THANKS WARRIOR

You ARE a class-act like your name!

[samhsarah]

42. Very true.

:-)

[MadisonProgressive]

20. No free speech rights on a private message forum

[samhsarah]

23. Free speech rights had NOTHING to do with my post....

Like I said "If you feel someone has broken the DU rules, by all means hit the alert button and voice your concerns to the mods"

[MadisonProgressive]

24. I didn't respond to your post - I'm on your side in this thread!

[samhsarah]

26. OOPS, sorry. I guess I took that the wrong way.

Sorry about that.:blush:

[Jeffersons Ghost]

35. I'm proving right now

CLOSED MINDS ARE CLOSED MINDS! If I hold the unpopular opinion that we must support our Dem leadership look how closed minds react at this left-thinking, I hope, DU site. Check the posts you read here to see if some don't remind you of Reich Wingers but that's not what I set out to show you true blue types that disagree.

[Vinnie From Indy]

5. I'm confused

Are you saying that all of us must accept the leadership of our party simply because they are "the leaders"? Are you implying that simply because a person has worn a military uniform their views and positions are sacrosanct? How do you think our "leaders" in the Democratic party have been doing so far over the last few years? Is this performance worthy of lock-step, tight-lipped obedience and non-critical review?

Very confused!

[samhsarah]

6. Me too...

:shrug:

[ClassWarrior]

8. Maybe this will clear up your confusion.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=214563&mesg_id=214902

NGU.

[AtomicKitten]

61. self-delete

[jonnyblitz]

9. THANK YOU...I completely agree (and I am a vet)

I suppose we should shut up when Lieberman gets out there and criticizes other DEMS for not supporting Bush's war. We should just remain silent as the DEM leaders let the GOP walk all over them. I say BULLSHIT on that cowardice.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

13. I say to Reich-Marshall Lieberman

Seig hiel! before I thank the traitor giving out info that divides and conquers our party this close to Nov mid-term elections. I'm with you on that turn-coat politician johnny!

[jonnyblitz]

21. and just so you know..

I have attended pretty much every major anti-war protest from boston to NYC to DC since a little before the war started up until the last one on september 24th of 2005! So even though I might criticize some of the DEM leadership I try to do more than just sit at the keyboard and bitch!

also, I live in CT so I will be voting in the DEM primary against Lieberman if (and it looks like he does) he has a challenger, and, I always vote DEM, never third party or GOP (gag), just so you know.:hi:

[Jeffersons Ghost]

29. you go johnny!

I like hearing about protests in other states... I can't wait to have one down here! Hell, I'm old and in pain alot of the time anyhow... Old warriors deserve to go down swinging... you just became one of my personal DU heroes Johnny. Keep up the good work.

[jonnyblitz]

34. no worries. we got you covered...

:thumbsup:

[Jeffersons Ghost]

16. no vinny

You have the right to vote for any other party you want in power here in the US. There's no law that says republicans must "support" democrats in American but constitutional law may soon swing the other way.

[Vinnie From Indy]

28. Huh?

I have no idea what you are trying to say. Are you implying that I am a Republican? Are you also saying that at some point in the future Republicans will be forced to vote for Democrats? Very confused.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

64. Nope

I'm not attempting to make any statement about you personally but instead want to use your post to show others that herd mentality is the same on the left and right. Sorry it DID look that way Vinny.

[400Years]

37. I guess we should just bend over and take it instead of fighting back

Just follow the leader and don't ask questions.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

65. I respect you alot vinny and 400 years

You present reasonable criticisms of "herd mentality" but realize we, on the far left, are just another herd, not a new better-evolved species. Please take the time to read a New thread I'm currently pondering that will present some mind-opening ideas on the Military Industrial Complex in the very near future, I hope.

[dusmcj]

7. yes if we propose what needs to change and don't lie

there's a lot of impatience here which is understandable but doesn't aid in getting the party back on a functioning track. But the basic notion that the leadership should respond to "liberal" being used as a pejorative with a sanitized version of "fuck you" rather than stereotypical liberal agonizing about why oh why people don't like us is right on the mark.

We are letting schmucks win, set tone and run the country (into the ground) because we fail on the small tactical scale to silence them. The assaults on Abramoff and Delay were good starts to this, but we need to continue and increase, going after all their chief offenders. Every time some GOP bozo tries to hump the public's leg with some lie, we need to generate a firestorm of media noise about it. The "we" here needs to be the Democratic leadership: Clinton was smart enough to use image, demographic manipulation, money and PR handlers as tools to achieve goals. The current leadership seems to think they are the goals. We get Mr. Kerry reduced to a cartoon the day after he wins the primaries, mealymouthed pandering to the "center" on no-movement subjects like abortion, and a lot of gas in mailings about "fighting" but not so much visible fighting from the leadership. Leaders lead. The opposition is fighting cultural war against us, and the end products of our strategizing too often say that we (and again, that's the party structure and leadership) don't understand that. Yes, it's about our way of life.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

72. is it time for US to take some responsibility?

I know it's easier to blame the leadership but I never hear about any anti-war protests... When Vietnam was as unpopular as Iraq is now, I heard plenty about the anti-war movement... When will the rank and file on the far-left finally say, "enough is enough?" If we do nothing isn't it a form of hypocrisy to say our leaders aren't doing enough? I believe it must start with us... It's our complacency that got us into this fix and, if it ever happens, it will be our definitive actions that get us out but time is of the essence. The clock is ticking as the bell tolls. Hemingway can tell you about that "bell" far more eloquently than me.

[zann725]

11. I AM a solid Dem supporter. BUT when a kettle is black...

And when Dem representatives of ALLEGED conviction (sent to rep we-the-people) consistently back away from the fight, refuse again and again to Filibuster..."yellow IS yellow"...and "cowards" should be called as-is.

[gratuitous]

15. There ya go

Does it serve the people who support the Democratic party when our leaders are forever keeping their powder dry for the next fight, which never quite materializes? When our party's leaders are supinely accepting the "unitary executive" theories of repressive right lunatics, watching passively as our government and military engages in torture and terrorism, it behooves we the people to remind our leaders that this isn't what America stands for. At least, not my America. And if the word "coward" slips my lips as I watch another mealy-mouthed rendition of "oh, please don't denigrate our commander in chief during wartime" excuse-fest, then folks like Joe Lieberman had better start developing either a spine or a thicker skin.

[TankLV]

83. Exactly.

Another "sit down and shut up" thread. They're all so tedius really.

But scolding us who have yet to find a good reason to vote dem again, especially those like me who have been working hard, hitting the pavement and voting and campaigning for dems since 1976 have done, will really convince us that the OP has some merit - NOT!

If not here, where? If not at dem meetings where we don't even get the courtesy of being heard, when?

Seems like the dem party knows what it wants to do, and doesn't care about my vote. Why should I waste it on them this time around?

[democrank]

14. Nominated

The very notion that we must march in lock step with all our party leaders....even when they contribute to the destruction of their own party....is truly chilling.

One doesn`t have to be a Freeper or a Naderite to genuinely believe many in our leadership have failed this party miserably.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

19. you can lock-step better other places...

What I ask; is why do some feel the need to constantly present issues on DU that cost our party votes and activists? If I were a freeper, I'd post boards precisely designed to make Dems feel like it's hopeless or boards that attack our leaders.

[ClassWarrior]

30. They think they're attacking a person, when to the public they're...

...making our values look weak and irrelevant. But it's easier to trash than it is to live up to the idea that we're the intelligent, compassionate ones.

NGU.

[TankLV]

85. Or how about the thought that we are trying to make them/us BETTER?

Naw, couldn't be that simple...

[WhereThereIsFire]

32. We don't have to agree with ALL Democrats ...

some are just plain ol DINOs (Dems In Name Only) and sometimes there are those who ACT like DINOs on certain issues. I think it is important we get a majority of REAL Democrats leading congress again ... but if we end up with a bunch that are DINOs, the important votes still won't go our way. And certainly, Leiberman is one who is as hawkish as Rumsfeld (though perhaps for different reasons) ... I find very little in common with him ... he is DINO all the way. Probably the vote count for Al Gore in 2000 would have been much BIGGER everywhere, and made the election more difficult to steal, if he'd had a REAL Democrat running with him.

[ClassWarrior]

33. Of course we don't. But we can still uphold the honor of the home team...

...even if some of the players suck.

NGU.

[MadisonProgressive]

18. The TRUTH is always useful

[SaveElmer]

22. Totally agree...

Great post!

[RobertSeattle]

25. I say all the GOP Congress are the Cowards

Rubberstamping the President, Voting in lockstep, Giving Congressional Power away to the Executive - they are the real cowards.

[ProSense]

40. I agree with you, and would add insults don't inspire change.

Can a person who has tremendous support and truly believes he/she is doing the right thing, be inspired to change because others are hurling insults (not constructive criticism) his/her way? Wouldn't it be more productive to find leaders who share a similar perspective and speak out to them, work on getting them in a position to impact change?

Bush is a good example, it's one thing to insult him (and he's in the other party), it's another thing to point out his mistakes and offer solutions in the hopes that others will come to share these perspectives, and another thing entirely to support those who aim to change the equation so that Bush can no longer continue pursuing failed policies; that means changing the equation in Congress. If only the first action is undertaken (hurling insults), then that's not speaking out in the name of democracy; that's screaming at a brick wall.


Similar point, it's better to call Republicans (and Democrats) and present a case against Alito, than to hurl insults at them now for supporting Alito. There is nothing wrong with being very angry that people are taking the wrong path and speaking out accordingly, but name calling isn't effective (though it might feel good). It also makes the person hurling the insult look foolish if it isn't true (an insult just to insult) as in the case of Mean Jean.

[rman]

43. Some we call cowards, some we call heroes -

depends on what they do. Fair enough?

[Jeffersons Ghost]

46. It's really a reasonable approach, rman

But What about boards that criticize our whole leadership? That was the problem I first discribed and like rank and file Dems, each leader is an individual. It's fair to go after one particular leader but going after them as a group is the Repukes job not ours. It's kind of like racism or war, when you lump together and attack others as a group.

[rman]

47. What about those boards?

Liberal/progressive message boards where every participant criticize all the Dem representatives? I have yet to come across one of those.
At any rate they can't be forced not to criticize; freedom of expression.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

48. no, you misunderstand

What I meant was the main message of the board is critical of our leadership in general, not that EVERYONE agreed with the first posting... I furnish a link to a board like that in my initial post... it was the board that inspired my message.

[rman]

50. You mean "thread", i think

So, people sometimes generalize, out of frustration. I'm pretty sure if one were to press the OP of that thread, he/she would agree there are in fact a few good guys in politics - to bad they don't get much air time.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

51. it almost appears to be human nature

focusing on the negative and distructive... It really doesn't speak well of the species... I will have to report back to my superiors "no intelligent life down here," if you folks don't get your act together.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

49. I do not believe it is useful, nope.

And what is more, I sometimes wonder if there may be some freepers or neocon plants around here who like to fuel the flames for their own purposes.

In fact your subject line coulda been written by me, in fact I may have started a topic like that at some time in the past.

Cause I really, really don't like bashing others on the team, the Democratic team.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

52. I'm fairly new Humor

But is there anyway a freeper could get a right to vote at DU? accidentally damaging threads by regular DUers seem to get voted up quick here, while threads that are more beneficial to our party sit vote-less. I find some of those threads that are highly questionable can receive more votes than seems logical.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

53. It is possible

yes. If they pay to join and have the star by their name they can vote.

A lot get caught and removed. Usually with the number of posts in the lower hundreds or less.

It is kinda obvious if they zip in without working at understanding this place and our views, cause their posts stick out like a sore thumb.

Some last longer.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

58. I suspect...

Any freeper with only rudimentary levels of intelligence can survive forever in DU if they choose. I find it funny when individuals convince themselves that they are highly intelligent because of a choice they make to fool others. It is like a thief who cases and stalks my home. Any lower animal can stalk a more intelligent creature, only to surprise and kill it, so craftiness proves nothing. In fooling others all they truly prove is that they are essentially a fool (Please see Proverbs) but what about DU spys in freeperville online? What if I decided to join that site and sign on as Jeffersons Ghost? Would rank and file freepers instantly know me from here? I have philosophical and religious reasons not to lie in print, aside from my infamous head-lines designed for gaining reader attention, which are always in a sense true. What if I preach about the Kingdom of God in Free Rep, as I have done here at DU on several occasions without being attacked? They claim to be religious and I'm sure many of them are. What if I try to show them what they already must know if they've ever read the New Testament? What if I share with them the words of Jesus and show how those fiery liberal writings relate to money, war, social security, welfare and racism?

[TankLV]

86. Not necessarily true. I don't see it that way.

Some days we seem to have a lot more moles/infiltrators than others. It's part of the give and take.

[TankLV]

54. The question is - is it an accuirate description? I and most others would

suggest it is.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

56. Just a matter of opinion and how the word is defined in the case

as you describe it.

Some might say being a Democrat in DC is in itself an act of courage nowadays.

By what standard we judge says much about we ourselves, IMHO.

[TankLV]

87. True enough.

[NativeTexan]

55. Jeff, I hope you know...

...that this Texan is right there with ya!!! GOOD POST!!

[Jeffersons Ghost]

59. finally a true ally

Thanks, Native Tex, us red-state comrades in arms find out pretty quick that we better condition our minds for battle, when we leave the keypad and hit the streets, don't we my friend? It's nice when I meet others at DU who understand from personal experience what I go through down here to win hearts, minds and votes.

[NativeTexan]

67. Its a tough life with this taxation without.....

...representation crap in the red's. You have to fight; be visible; and hit the LTTE's hard! Then you have to be active, and have tons of patience! Sometimes my patience gets a little thin though....the blues don't know what it is like.....

[Jeffersons Ghost]

68. Mine got thin with a local liberal Christian last week

Imagine a hippy-type guy wearing a shirt with a confederate flag on it and a hat with the same symbolism. One might assume this guy was a Repuke but he assured me he hated the party and all they stood for, except maybe racism. The rupukes might not even be racists in a technical sense... They might be an equal opportunity enslaver that lords over anyone with less than $500 million in gold without regard to race, creed or religious views.

Anyhow, let's get back to my anthropological studies down south on this interesting new specimen. His attire really didn't catch my attention, which is sad in itself. because my inattentiveness speaks of my getting used to seeing such nonsense. What caught my attention was when he spoke out, as I was discussing Divinity with a gal who was good-looking enough to be able to get away with expressing atheism in public.

Her words were the trigger that brought my new acquaintance into the conversation, as he quickly pointed out Jesus is Lord. He said he was open-minded on everything else. I then noticed the symbolism and asked him what it all meant.

I'll save you all the grizzly details and leave you with my report: In the final analysis the guy WAS open minded and I was able to convince him that Jesus would not approve of racism and if we consider where He lived, wasn't white either. He agreed and made a commitment to improve. It won't be easy, since he was raised by racists but little things and baby-steps mean alot, when it comes to people.

[NativeTexan]

71. Yep, and Jesus was a minority.....

.....a JEW none the less...in a world of white Romans. Jesus was a LIBERAL.....not an right-wing zealot!!

[Adelante]

70. Not red state, but an ally

Criticize a policy on an issue you don't agree with, fine by me, criticize an individual pol on an issue you don't agree on, okay. But smash the entire party or a segment of the party with which you have ideological differences, no. Not now. The Democratic Party needs all of its factions to pull together and get these bastards out the door in 2006, this very year, and in 2008. But I fear the purists on all sides will beat this party into the ground first. If we all put more into fighting Republicans than into fighting each other, we can win. If not, and we don't need no stinkin' freepers to help us, this is a suicidal path we are on, we can destroy our party ourselves.

That's the choice: us or them? Pick your enemy wisely. When we're back in power, take up the standard again and reform the party. For the time being, fight Republicans, not Democrats, because the stakes are too high. Do you love your country? Then do what's best for it and leave the family fights for when it matters most.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

73. good call wesdem

Thanks for posting it on this thread... Your writing is concise and sums up my views more eloquently than my original post. It's nice to meet you.

[Adelante]

74. Nice to meet you, too, Jeffersons Ghost

Alabama Dems are great fighters :)

[guidod]

57. I was in Guam at probalby about the same

time you were in Nam. I wasn't with you then but I am with you now Jeffersons Ghost. If someone in the party doesn't do exactly as they would like them to some DUers are ready to slit his or hers throat throat. It's just a handfull of people that do that but after they do it becomes very infectious and soon everyone is doing it. When I feel like doing something like that I'll find myself pulling back and trying to see if they're doing it for their constitutents or not.

I want them to put their toes to the fire as well, just likle anybody else, but I'll take a step back first. I know what you're saying, Jefferson Ghost, trashing people doesn't do it for me either.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

60. It's really nice to meet you guidod

It becomes like a feeding frenzy and hurts a bit if your the main course, doesn't it?

[guidod]

66. I agree and...

...thanks for your service and sacrifices.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

69. don't thank me

It will spoil me and make me work less! Besides it's politically incorrect to thank 'Nam vets, save it for the guys who will soon expect your appreciation. I really hope the tyrant will stop extending their tours of duty. That's not fair and resembles some ultra-evil breach of contract.

[guidod]

75. A breach of contract is

a good way to put it. These poor troops are lied to from the very beginning and then shit on when they become vets. I'll admit that I joined the Navy to avoid being drafted onto the front lines of Nam, but these poor troops can end up being an infantryman if they join the National Guard or a reservist part of the military. Then get sent back to battle over and over and over. This, so called, President is way out of line and deserves to be impeached.

You have every right to be spoiled because of the service you gave to this country.

[AtomicKitten]

62. I agree with you and your courage to say it here at DU.

Funny, I notice some of the usual suspects have supported you here that otherwise spend their time trashing Democrats they don't like, making up shit about them, and insulting those that try to correct the false allegations or even just disagreeing with them.

But that's okay. You've hit the nail on the head and kudos to you. Must be tough being a Democrat in a red state. I'm in SF and it's much easier here. I can't tell you how much I admire you for standing up where you are and for who you are.

Bravo.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

63. THANKS KITTEN

I LOVE YOUR NEW JUMPING JESUS LOGO AND HE WOULD TOO, I'D LIKE TO THINK. Here's a post I just put on a brand new board here at DU:

GUESS THE GHOST:

Yep, it's a new Reality TV series, just for DU!

Born in a city instrumental in building early US Democracy Philadelphia and raised in Alabama, I have a unique perspective. I spent every summer in MA, where Mom's Catholic side of the family still lives. I spent childhood in the deep south in a town where all of Dad's Southern Baptist relatives have now left. It's a University town where I saw, Hendrix, Abby Hoffman and Jerry Rubin alive, preachy and feisty in another time. I was an atheist by 13 and quite sure Karl Marx had all the answers. I was wrong and probably still am but I think the Neo-Platonists have many answers. I'm glad those writers brought me back to Divinity; it was a long journey. It might amuse you when I say that while growing up I fought the civil war from first one side in Alabama because of my views on racism and then in Massachusetts every summer because girls found my accent cute and I love certain aspects of the deep south. I'm not talking arguments when I use the term, "fight."

Don't blame the south for a Connecticut Yankee blue-blood named Bush. And try, as you write, Bill to avoid lumping people into a group before you pass such swift judgment. Whether it's Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity or Confucianism matters little, the message remains the same. Judge not least ye be judged. I hope you continue to grow... You may be on the right path.

Here's a song for you:

I've looked at life from both sides now,
From win and lose, and still somehow
It's life's illusions i recall.
I really don't know life at all.


Be sure and stay tuned... My next board on perhaps the greatest Rep president of all may answer alot of your questions... Have you ever heard of the MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2387904
I FEEL BASHING SOUTHERNERS AS A GROUP IS A FORM OF RACISM! What do you think?

[obxhead]

76. Having recently moved to SC I feel your pain....

Look for me in the protest marches to come. :)

[Jeffersons Ghost]

77. well, at least I know my way around town down here

But when I lived at Onset Beach on the water three years ago I knew my way around the Cape too... I kinda miss MA and especially all my cousins up there.

[AngryAmish]

78. We are the party

We represent the best that the Democratic party has to offer. We see more clearly than 99% of the sheeple who waddle through life waiting to be screwed.

They better listen to us. And if they are not then they are cowards.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

79. BA HA HA HA!!!

Do you want to see what i find funny? I loved this line, AA: "sheeple who waddle through life waiting to be screwed." LOL!

[Dr Fate]

80. "undermine our leadership on message boards"

How does one do this?

By posting opinions based on honest frustration w/ leadership?

This statement suggests that some Joe-shmo with a key-board has more power over what DEMS do to be seen as fighting for our rights, than the DEMS themselves.

Sometimes I DO perceive them as being frightened of "what the media will say" or "how the Republicans will spin this." It comes across as cowardly sometimes, notwithstanding who is a Vet & who is not.

DEMs could filibuster and prove all these people who "undermine our leadership on message boards" wrong.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

81. picture if you will...

A place where information is a commodity and the highest bidder is not only a murdering liar but also a black-mailer. Imagine a nation where the tyrant announces he is spying on whoever he likes and has proven he will not only use but also twist information into a form that will destroy you. Which senator is so squeaky clean that there has been nothing in his communications for the past 7 years to alter and then spin into high-profile public view? You guessed it, you have just entered the twilight-for-democracy zone.

[Dr Fate]

91. None of that is my fault.

This hypothetical DEM Senator with "baggage" can either quit or lay it all out on the table and fight. The position he found himself in is NOT my fault.

I've been saying to call these bastards what they are for the past 7 years.

This as opposed to pretending DEMS can "work with" liars & criminals, with the notion it will somehow impress "swing-voters."

I stand by my statement- disgruntled DEMS voicing criticism to the entrenched party leadership are not the cause of these problems DEMS have had over the past few years.

[TankLV]

82. YES - at least THEY can't stop us from screaming the TRUTH!

No matter how much they dislike it.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

84. and....

They can't stop us from marching ten-thousand strong on DC either can they? We can chant "BLACK-MAIL THIS YOU TYRANNICAL PUNK!" as we point toward heaven to show the sheeplees the way.


Which finger should we use to help them see heaven?

[TankLV]

89. I think people are getting tired of "what we should/should not do threads.

We are all on the same side.

Bunkerboy and the REPUKES are the "enemy" but sometimes our so-called "leaders" need to be brought kicking and screaming to fight for what we all want. We have seen this too many times. Too many are willing to see which way the wind blows first before making a decision, and some will never vote on principles alone, always strategizing and triangulating, always afraid to lose, but always losing nonetheless.

If one doesn't make one's wishes known, then it's 100% certain that they will not be according to what they wish. But if one makes one's wishes known, then there's at least a 50% chance that someonewill agree with them.

If one could figure out why someone does something, they would be rich beyond imagining. But it will never happen.

Think of a family. You are entirely right to demand that they act in accordance with your principals, provided they are noble and good principles, but let someone else criticize them, then just because they are NOT part of your family, they have NO RIGHT to do so. We squabble, we get heated, we angrily diasgree. But in the end, we are a family and will band together if attacked without justification. That does not make is that as a family we should protect our members when we see them doing wrong or making mistakes. That's what families do. We would be duty-bound to bring justice to them also.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

90. tankly

I'd be of a better mind if i believed our guys aren't severely threated... People were wrong in DU when they wrote that Dur Fuhrer announced that he broke the law because he got caught. I believe he announced his illegal spying as a major threat to our leadership. That scrawny dictator either has or can create the goods to bring our guys up on treason and hang them. It's one thing to risk and be willing to lose your life, like Kerry, when you're young and single but a fine senior statesman with wife and children shouldn't be asked for ultimate sacrifices like that now.

[Dr Fate]

92. Those in Iraq should "make the sacrifices."

And those getting their jobs sent over seas should make the sacrifices.

Those fighting to stay above the poverty level should make the sacrifices.

Those with no health care should make the sacrifices.

Those who of us who DO NOT have microphones and TV cameras and who are ALSO being spied on should make the sacrifices.

Those poor DEMs in congress make sacrifices? Nahhh- keep 'em fat and safe- we might need them someday.