Let's talk Politics....

[rasputin1952]

I have noticed many a thing on the pages of DU over the years, and I believe that we have hashed over just about everything there is to hash out. After all, that's what DU is all about.

There comes a time however, when we need to start to work toward a common goal, getting bush in a position where he can do the nation no more harm. It should be agreed that is really what the goal is; the question is, how can we do this at our individual levels?

I've seen many a good idea come across this screen, and I think it is time to get the whole thing down into a situation where we can understand what we really have to do.

First things first, the 2006 election. This election is important in many ways, and might well be the turning point we've been looking for. Forget the bush impeachment stuff, it ain't gonna happen...unless we get a solid Democratic House. Even then, impeachment is not taken lightly, (except in the case of neo-cons headhunting a president for a personal foible). What we should be doing, and I have been doing this for several years now, is ensuring that people will get out to vote. I carry a slew of voter registration cards with me, and am always willing to give one to prospective new voter. In fact, those cards have gotten 23 new Independents
from the R ranks, and 3 Dem's have come over from the R's. Not bad really, considering that these people all changed from Republican here in the state of Nebraska. It takes work, but it pays off. I have gotten 146 new voter registrations in my area. I did not ask if the would register D,R or I. That is their business, but they registered after a talk from ne in how this is no longer the Republican Party of Eisenhower, it is a party that has been hijacked by a vociferous minority that has given us record deficits, a war we need not be in, and some of the most scandal ridden Congresscritters this nation has ever known.

Next, we can discuss this stuff forever here on DU, but if you take the time to talk to prospective voters, you can make headway. I believe everyone here on DU will vote against the neo-cons, why should I spend all of my energy here? 2006 is a chance to change both Houses of Congress, and stop bush and his cronies in their tracks. We need to ensure that this president has no power to ensnare the nation in more of his misguided ideology; we can gripe about it here on DU...but we have to make an impact in our local areas, that is where the difference will make an impact.

We need to stop all of the griping and harping. It is fine to bring up points and haggle over them, that is what politics is all about. But we can't dwell on 2000 and 2004. Two years ago, bush returned to office because we bickered like children rather that show a solidified party ready to take on the issues, not just here on DU, but Party-wide. I believe that Ohio was stolen, but other than be pissed off about it and squawk and do nothing, I work to ensure that that the electronic voting devices have a paper trail, so that Ohio doesn't happen again. Every one of us should be working toward an accountable election. We have the power, but we waste it when we sit here and make statements without action.

Third, Fourth, Fifth parties are not going to get bush into the position where he can sit out the presidency in semi-retirement. I am honest about this, I see no reason to come to DU and state that one will vote Green, Communist, Peoples Party or anything else. I do not hold it against anyone on how they wish to cast their ballot, but to come here and attempt to degrade others for the way they will vote is really kind of over the top. Regardless of our individual voting patterns, we need to be solidly behind candidates that will take the power away from bush. At this point, and for the foreseeable future the Democratic Party is the only party that can do this. I don't agree with everything that the D candidates say, and certainly not how they vote in Congress, when it is in support of anything bush puts forward, but I want to see D's commanding Congress again; until we have that, no progress will be made.

So, in essence, it is time to start working on 2006. Forget 2008, if we don't do well in '06,'08 will be a moot issue. The platform will not be created until the '06 elections are in, and if we keep arguing about what flavor bagel to bring to the table, we will never get anywhere.

I ask you to all get moving in ensuring that people will get out and vote Democratic. If you feel you have to make a statement by voting Green, or whatever, please, find a site that is more accepting to that train of thought. We need to come together, bury our petty differences and work together to save the nation we live in. This nation is in peril under the current administration, this is a very serious matter and if we do not solidify, we shall fall the way of the Whigs, Bull Moose and other party's that have found their way into the dustbin of history.

Thank you all for reading this, and I wish to express that these are my views only, and this is not posted under any mantle of Moderator status or of DU policies in general. I just want us to get out of this nightmare, and get the country back into the hands of the People.

:patriot:

[MH1]

1. Excellent post. K & R. n/t

[Douglas Carpenter]

2. I can't argue with that...great post

[snowbear]

3. Bravo rasputin !!! ... One thing that I keep hoping about DU...

....... is that we would stop the in-house bickering about politicians or candidates that happen to be affiliated with the DLC.

I'm not a DLC'er.. but for crying out loud --- we are NEVER going to get anywhere if we bitch and moan about the varying degrees of the Democratic party.



Here's an example ---- If Harold Ford, Jr. happens to be our best chance of taking the U.S. Senate seat in Tennessee, what good does it do for any of us when someone comes on here to bash him because he happens to be a member of the Democratic Leadership Council?

I realize there's another Democrat vying for that seat, but face it.. it ain't gonna happen.

The fact of the matter is -- we're not in control of ANYTHING. If the candidates who win upcoming elections are DNC or DLC, - :shrug: then so be it -- they are DEMOCRATS!

The continuous bickering about who is or is not affiliated with the DLC is tearing DU apart.

I want Democrats who can WIN running. But damitall.. we have to stop categorizing every single DLC affiliated Democrat as a "bad choice" and ask ourselves which is worse --- that candidate or another Republican?

I sure don't recall anyone blasting Senator Kerry for his relationship to the DLC when he was our nominee.

We have to get the candidate who CAN WIN in this extremely divided nation elected ----DNC, DLC, DCCC, DFA, ... just say "D" !!!

[rasputin1952]

4. You are getting the message out...

:)

There are so many petty arguments out there, it seems like far too many people have lost sight of goal, neutralizing the power of this corrupt administration.

Many people think that the only way stop bush, is to impeach and try him; but reality says that just getting control of at least one house of congress, (preferably both), would put the brakes on this runaway train.

Focusing energy on the '06 election should be the basis of change, and the nitpicking and minor points of contention need to cease. We all know that there are certain things we don't care for, but the reality is, keeping the Big Picture in perspective is the only way that we can stop this gaggle of fear-mongers.

I can tell that many here feel the same way, but the sparse # of responses to this thread has shown me that the vast majority of of individuals here would rather squabble among themselves than actually get up and do some work to change things. It is a sad day when people will sit on one point and make an issue out of what amounts to a tiny faction of the Party, and by doing that, set themselves up for defeat...:(

We cannot change those tiny aspects of contention within the Party, if we do not regain power in Congress. Too often, we allow selfish points and inane arguments derail us from the point of the Party politic, to wrest control of this nation out of the hands of the neo-cons. This should be the main focus of everyone here...:)

edited to make some minor grammatical changes.

[Zodiak]

19. just an update

Obama is NOT a member of the DLC. He courted the organization for a while, but ended up not joining.

[snowbear]

27. Where did Obama's name come up?

I'm corn-fused... But what else is new..

Seriously though.. I don't recall Obama's name coming up in this thread.. :shrug:

[Zodiak]

36. Oh I'm an idiot...that's all

Even though you CLEARLY wrote about Harold Ford, Jr., I, for some reason, saw Barack Obama. I suffer from temporary idiocy sometimes.

Sorry to confuse.

[tnlefty]

39. I criticize Ford for votes he's cast, positions he's taken and for things

that I've heard come out of his mouth, and I complement him when he votes or does something, i.e. charging across the aisle when Schmidthead dissed Murtha, that he should get a pat on the back for. There's been a feeling (not just of mine) that there has been a concerted effort to keep a primary from happening and to suppress the fact that someone else is running. I think that a vigorous primary would be good for both of the candidates.

[jarab]

5. Thanks, ras!

Broad points well spoken. My wish is for all DUers to read and thoughtfully consider what you've said.

...O...

[rasputin1952]

9. The Broad points give us the big picture, and that is the whole point...

when we get into petty squabbles over some points of contention, we lose the big picture.

My objective is to return to the Big Picture, getting power out of bush's grasp through Constitutional means. We can do it if we just get past the little bumps that constantly come up...:)

[MrBenchley]

6. Great post!

Thanks.

[SteppingRazor]

7. Agreeed. '06 is everything...

Especially if the goal is, as you said, getting Bush in a position where he can do no more harm. By '08, of course, he's done. But if we can take over Congress in '06, he's done two years early, as any legislation he pushes will never even make it out of committee.

[rasputin1952]

8. Precisely...the object is to neutralize his abuses...

Impeachment would be great, but for right now, we need to get himn into a position where he is no longer a threat to the Nation, the Constitution and the American citizen.

The best way to do this, is to retake at least one House in Congress.
You are correct, nothing would make it out of committee, effectively neutralizing the threat....:D

[AX10]

22. Exactly!

Democratic control of congress ends the Bush agenda.

[JeffR]

10. Thanks, great post

:dem:

[opihimoimoi]

11. I'm with you ...,.sharpen the spears, man the walls, heat the oil,

Opi, from Treb Unit #4

need one more R...com on guys...

[rasputin1952]

18. Opi !!!!!!!!! Great to see you !!!!!

How are the experiments coming along?


:hi:

[opihimoimoi]

23. Half and Half: Crab experiment taking too long and feasibility shows negat

ive

while SeaLettuce holds best promise.

God, its good to see Old Timers still around...Ya been here...what, 4 yrs? 5?

Its good to see you and thanks for asking re experiments....

Opi

[rasputin1952]

28. LOL...I've been here long enough to have to use a walker to go from

forum to forum...:D

I'm glad to see that something holds promise after all of the work you've put into it...:thumbsup:

[opihimoimoi]

29. My Crabs and Sea lettuce is nothing compared to the Probs Bush has foisted

on our Nation/Planet.

Come, we go sharpen the spears for the assault on Le Bastille.

[rasputin1952]

32. Torches and Pitchforks at the ready...

Depose the Children of the Corn...:D

[welshTerrier2]

12. "bury our petty differences"

i agree with many of the things in the OP ... it certainly is not adequate to make your whole political life just debating politics on DU ... it's critically important, especially for politically aware people, to get involved and work on issues that are important to them ...

i also agree that the focus needs to be much more on 2006 than 2008 ...

but i very strongly disagree with the comments you made about "burying our petty differences" and the comments you made about how Greens and others should leave DU ... first of all, it's not your call to make ... while you made the point using respectful and thoughtful language, the message is nevertheless that those who are not fully behind the Democratic Party and each and every candidate they nominate should get the hell out of here ... as long as DU'ers comply with the rules, it's really not your place to be calling the shots ...

secondly, it's bad politics and it's short-sighted ... as a Democrat, my view is that we need to do more to attract voters on the left ... this does not mean the Party should move to the left or the center or anywhere else ... it means that it should be an objective to listen to voters, understand their concerns, and seek to find as much common ground as possible ... your "why don't you just go somewhere else" does not embody that idea ... we should not "bury our petty differences"; we should first respect the idea that they are not "petty" and we should second find a better process to work through them ... our differences are NOT "petty" and they should NOT be "buried" ...

you've also oversimplified the DU constituency ... at least i didn't see my views reflected in what you wrote ... i'm not a Green or a Communist or a whatever ... but i am a Democrat who will not support a candidate merely because they have a "D" label ... this will be true in 2006 and it will be true in 2008 and beyond ... that's because i don't accept the idea that we have to support ALL Democrats regardless of how they've voted on critical issues ... at some point, we have to demand reforms in the Party to give all Democrats a chance to be heard ... that's what i have a problem with right now ... our elected reps rarely meet with voters unless it's a fundraiser ... there's very little communication ... this hurts the party in two ways ... one, we don't get a chance to fully understand why they've voted as they have; and two, they aren't getting sufficient input from the spectrum of ideas in their constituencies ...

so instead of your polite and thoughtful "love it or leave it" position, maybe you should be preaching a "we need to do a better job reaching out to potential voters" ...

and finally, you raised the issue of impeachment ... here again, i disagree ... i don't think Dems need to be all over the media right now calling for impeachment either ... they have to lay the groundwork first ... but i do think they need to do a much better job talking about serious violations of the Constitution ... they do need much better message discipline talking about spying on Americans ... they need to do a much better job talking about separation of powers especially since it looks like bush might bomb Iran without Congressional authorization ... Dems don't need to lead with the "I-word" but they do need to start preparing their case ... the point is NOT whether a push for impeachment could succeed; the point is that we need to explain the case to the American people ... if you think we should only pursue things with a guaranteed win at the end, we'll be too afraid to fight for anything ...

[rasputin1952]

14. A few points here need to be addressed....

I am not saying that Greens, et al are not welcome at DU. I am saying that if the posts are in derision of D's, or if they are made with the point of specifically drawing votes from Dem candidates, the are doing a disservice to this Board, and to the one party that can actually curtail bush's attacks on this nation. I believe that Greens, and others, have a lot to offer; however, when I see posters stating they will never vote for a Dem I have wonder why they are here. After all, this Democratic Underground...:)

As for my "calling the shots", this was neither my intention nor was it implied. I posted that my views were entirely my own, and in no way should anyone construe that I speak for DU, or as a Moderator in that thread. My views are that of a concerned member, and a Progressive. I am pragmatic, 3rd, 4th or 5th parties will not win, it is mathematically impossible in this day in age. This may change in the future, but as I write this, and in the foreseeable future, the Democratic Party has the best bet at stopping the bush agenda and I think that backing them is the best bet we have.

My position is not, "love it or leave it"; my position is simply, if you want to torpedo the best chance we have to stop bush, please do it somewhere else. I am 100% in favor any constructive ideas that are out there, but to be honest...far too many people are wailing and crying, and not putting anything of substance up as an alternative. It is magnificently easy to complain, but when there are calls for substance....more complaining comes forth. The vast majority of complaints have nothing to back them up as constructive criticism. They are merely complaints without answering dialog. Anyone can do that, and it essentially serves very little purpose in moving forward.

bush and his cronies are taking this nation to hell in a handbasket. My answer is to get moving locally, starting today, to get the ball rolling in getting the House and Senate into the hands of those that reign in bush and his agenda. IMHO, the Dems have the best chance...infact, they have the only chance.

As for impeachment...the articles have been written. Whether of not they will be applied is up to the House. If that House remains in R hands, the issue is moot. Few things would make me smile more that watching bush pack his bags and leave the WH in disgrace. This will not happen if the House remains in R hands, it is as simple as that.

The "petty difference"are precisely that, petty differences. Look at the arguments being made, there are, in all honesty, few major aspects brought up. We are talking basic points of procedure, not major aspects of the party.

The force behind the argument is that we need to find out what we agree on, and take it from there. We will never agree on everything, but we cannot afford to tear ourselves apart because of small differences and large egos. We need to stop bush, and if we don't find some common ground, there will be an R Congress again, and I do not believe that the nation will survive as we know it, if at least one house does not go Dem. The stakes are far too high for us to squabble about a few minor points, and hand the nation over to the neo-cons.

:patriot:

[zann725]

13. I refuse to rule out EF exposure, or Impeachment BEFORE'08.

I'm NOT counting on '06 Machine accuracy either.

"Power" is in the NOW. And as much as I believe we learn from history (i.e., Russia ala 1917)...superstitious or not, I try not to take advice from anyone screen-named "Rasputin".

Instead, I'm counting on NOW...and what we can do TODAY...to make Repugs atone for 2000 and '04, and all the other CURRENT Repug scandals coming down the pike.

[rasputin1952]

16. I think that using now is perfectly acceptable, and I think that using

the past is acceptable as well...but we need to use the present for the future. The '06 election is key to taking the power from the bushites.

As for my username...:D

[NativeTexan]

15. Wonderful post, ras....

....more need to see things that way. We have to pick our fights and make sure that it isn't with each other. Democrats ALWAYS infight, and that is OK. That is what makes us very different from the Republicans. But those fights only need to leave bruises....not murders. And fighting with the right-wing, like I said, has to be studied and targeted...not free-swinging at every issue they throw about. That IS their tactic.

You can't win by making small hits everywhere. But a few BIG hits in areas that count....that is where the real fight is. And those are the issues we need to study.

[rasputin1952]

17. I kind of think of it as Washington during the Revolution....

he lost a heck of a lot of battles; but he won the ones that made made a difference...and if it were not for the Patriots of that era, those who did not flee from the fight, this would be quite a different country.

:patriot:

[Zodiak]

20. I agree with you

We must find common ground in order to group together to push to get Congress back. We have a lot in common. I say this as a person who does spend time on DU highlighting which Democrats ostensibly support a majority of Bush initiatives. I do NOT advocate for these Dems to be voted out in favor of third party candidates OR Republicans. I do promote primary challenges for them. There is no WAY we should trust any Republican to fight against Bush. No WAY!!

However, I would also like to communicate the motive for DINO-hunting (for at least my part in it). When I did the math, some Democrats are a great detriment to the party's positions and prevent us from fighting th Bush administration as a whole. Take, for example, the present situation regarding Alito. Many people here say "we do not have the votes! we can't win!!" as a reason to not worry about Democrats not filibustering the nomination. Now why does anyone suppose we do not have the votes when it takes 60 to bust a filibuster? Because SOME Democrats will not listen to the leadership and decide that having a dangerous appointment like Alito is not worth fighting against. (this is their public position; I recognize that they may be playing rope-a-dope)

I do not want our party to be hamstrung from our own share of power (what little there is) because we have Democrats amongst our ranks that ostensibly support Bush and stab the party in the back during critical power grabs by the executive branch (sometimes against popular opinion). I say we challenge them in the primaries (without naming them); how else to hold them accountable?

BUT, for all general elections, third party strategies ensure disenfranchisement of the left. I do NOT advocate that position. The party needs to find its populist/liberal/progressive roots, but we should obtain that by involvement from within.

Of course, this is my opinion and I do not mean any offense by stating it on this thread. I DO care about these issues.

[rasputin1952]

21. I agree w/what you have said. It is important to take some people on

in the Primaries, if for no other reason than to reign them back in to what they should be doing. To be honest, I know that there are some pretty good conservatives out there too. But those that truly believe in an Eisenhower GOP, are being silenced by neo-cons that are hell-bent on destroying this nation. I would not vote for an R, but I'd rather see those that do get elected, be a little more flexible.


And yes, there is a common ground, and a common bond within this party. When we meet there, we are unstoppable. The hardest thing, is reaching that common ground. The common bond, is getting bush into a corner and keeping him there. The benefits of that alone, should drive us to the common ground...:)

[TheBaldyMan]

24. what about DINO candidates?

I read your post but the thing that struck me is this: you want your democracy back but if you have the choice of a DINO and a progressive republican would you support the candidate regardless of party affiliation.

Do you support the candidate that is more likely to check Presidential power?

[Zodiak]

25. I think that finding a progressive Republican is going to be awful hard

A guy like Ron Paul (R-Tx)I can respect, for instance, but I would hardly call him a "progressive".

The Republicans do not have progressives nowadays, so there is still more benefit in a DINO over Republican, as sad as that is. The advantage comes only in caucus size.

But there are some DINOs who do need the boot. Organized primaries launching the career of a charismatic progressive against a tired old DINO would be the best way to do it. If for anything else, then hold the DINOs feetto the fire and get some recognition for a new progressive for a lesser or equivalent race.

Anything is better than letting DINOs go unchallenged in the primaries, because after then, the choice is painful, but clear. Vote Dem.

[Hippo_Tron]

26. Let me know if you find a race with a progressive Republican vs a DINO

So far I haven't found one.

BTW, Lowell Wicker is running as an independent not a Republican.

[rasputin1952]

30. Primaries can help cull the herd, but sometimes you have to go w/what

you have. I may be optimistic in this respect, but I think some DINO's woud come around in a power shift. This does not make them decent human beings by any means but some people have the drive to move towards power.
Since the GOP is in power, some of less than stellar move towards them. They also offer an opportunity to cull the herd.

One or two DINO's are of little consequence if we have the power to keep them in line. We must first gain that power by taking back Congress.

[wiley]

31. Brilliant! 4 Stars!

There is a way to be passionate about being progressive without scaring people with your physical or verbal intensity.
If people would only consider this, more people would listen and associate. Keep the message clear and simple and don't demand a huge amount of working and busy people's time. They'll get the importance if it's not labeled serious or important. Make it Entertaining and Relevant. Anticipate the no thought, shut down response of the opposition. Have a clear and simple response that makes them look like tired stuffy academics and full time political wanksters. You will win them over.


GO DEMOCRATS!

[rasputin1952]

34. You've got it!

I've had conversations everywhere I've gone. Once the person knows I am not
a threat and will discuss this stuff civilly w/them, they are very receptive to what the Dem/Progressive aspects are. Most people don't have a clue, because they hear about, and see, infighting and nothing that they can relate to. It takes effort, but once people realize that we are there for THEM, they look at us with a whole different attitude.

If I can help to make changes in Nebraska, I know it can be done anywhere...:D

[wiley]

35. I am truly honored by your comment

Let's be civil with each other, especially to the new comers. Let DU be known for the quality of it's dialogue, not the anger of its' posters.

[rasputin1952]

37. Thank you, and I am honored that you took the time to reply, and

are as dedicated as you are.

Together, we, The People will return this nation to it's rightful owners, the American citizen...:D

There will always be detractors...and I welcome their views. But as long as they sit around do nothing but gripe, things will not change. This takes work, and the sooner we lay the groundwork, the easier it will be.

Thank you for taking the time to respond...:)

[Wordie]

33. Excellent post. I'd recommend it if I could, but it's now too late.

It's impressive that you've gotten that many registrations. And it's a good way to look at things; the fall elections are the first priority.

...after the effort to stop Alito, of course. :)

[rasputin1952]

38. I'm just glad you took the time to read through this thread...

It shows me that you care, and as long as care, we will stand together and defeat bush's attempts to turn this nation into the horror he envisions...:woohoo: