You Linux users are costing us VOTES!

[BiggJawn]

Really, you're driving potential Democrats who use WinDoz into the arms of the GOP.

Why not? If, as I heard again over the weekend "You Atheists are costing the Party VOTES, because you're driving Christian Liberals away", why can't the same be true of other opinions?

You "Militant Vegans", stop it right now. You're driving Carnivores into the arms of Zell Miller! Stop it, I say!

You "Alternative Energy" people! You're driving the "Crunch all you Want" SUV and 40-gallon-per-hour speedboat crowd into the arms of Babs and Poppy. Stop it!

You supporters of Public Schools, What are you DOING??? You're scaring away the Home Schoolers! STOP IT!

Cat People! You're turning off the Dog Lovers! Dog Lovers! you're making the Cat Fanciers curl their lips and buy the Ann Coulter Anthology. Stop It!

You people out there who think it's all about "Less Filling"! you're driving the "Tastes GREAT!" bunch to desiring nothing less than to Share A Beer with Il Douche! STOP IT, For Random Chance's SAKE!!!!

So tell me again how the Atheists are "costing the Democrats votes"?

[rooboy]

1. Point well made. n/t

[benburch]

2. RAMEN, Brother.

[OKNancy]

3. Non-believer here..it's not that atheists

are driving away believers. It's that some, a very few, are just so obnoxious and hateful, that it might drive people away. Tolerance works both ways.

[BiggJawn]

6. I'm one of THE most obnoxious ones here.

I still think it's ludicrous to say that my sour-assed attitude is powerful enough to make somebody vote against their best interest.

"That BiggJawn guy really made me feel bad when he told me to pull my head out of my ass and 'actually READ Gawd's Word'...I think I'm gonna vote for Whoever Runs Against Hillary. That'll show'm!"...

"That 'Meat is Murder' guy really hurt my feelings when he sent me to a website that had pictures of them making Veal. I think I'll vote for John Hostettler to get back at them..."

IMO, people THAT weak-brained are no great loss to the Party, but then, that's just my own sour-assed "non-inclusive" opinion....

[robbedvoter]

24. You made me vote for Bush - it's my story and I stick to it!

I just did it so I could come here and tell you about it - happy now?



In all fairness, atheists are not the ones advised to STFU. I read "you lefties get what you deserve" and "Warner will force everyone to the center" or "I am not a feminist" and many other interesting rules of conformity.

[Inland]

51. ROFL!

"I still think it's ludicrous to say that my sour-assed attitude is powerful enough to make somebody vote against their best interest."

That's so cute. You think that people are so smart and engaged and thick skinned that your "attitude" won't change anything. Or if it does, it's only because they were too weak minded to eat what you serve up. What a wonderful excuse.

Too bad it's all false.

Fact is, many people aren't as clear as YOU are on where their "self interest" lies, and it isn't because they aren't as goldarned smart as you. It's because it's a big world full of people with different situations, situations you know nothing about, busy lives and so forth. But they DO know when they are treated like shit and invited to fuck off if they don't like it. It registers pretty quick and long before they get through the policy discussion. HOw about this: why not let someone tell them about their self interest before you turn them off with your attitude? Maybe it won't make any difference, but I'm wondering what's lost by you giving it a shot.

[mainegreen]

4. What about us athiest, linux using, cat people?

We must be pissing off all those lame, religious, dog loving, windows people!

:P

edited to add commas for readability

[mcscajun]

5. Sing it Loud!

:applause:

[MadisonProgressive]

7. In an effort to rid the Democratic party of all left-handed

masturbaters... I USE MY RIGHT HAND YOU PUSSIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dob Bole]

8. Well, we Linux users don't call Windows users "fucking morons".....

and we vegetarians do not call meat-eaters "nutjobs." Yet that is regularly directed toward Christians or any people of faith, and not just the right-wing ones.

[mainegreen]

9. Speak for yourself about those windows people!

:P

I'm just keedding!
say above in your worst spanish accent

[MadisonProgressive]

11. If the shoe fits...

[DIKB]

26. Ouch

Funny though. I agree, some people need that "Tough Love."

I personally don't use such harsh language. Though, I do get really tired of biting my own tongue simply b/c people are incapable of objectively analyzing the concept of the christian god. It's ludicrous, and though I'm too polite to do so, I can't fault some people from getting extremely frustrated and being brutally honest.

As MP said, "If the shoe fits..."

I really wish I could present it in a non-offensive way, but people clinging to the notion of the christian god, is similar to people clinging to a belief in the tooth fairy, santa claus, the easter bunny, etc. The only difference being that, if the money isn't under the pillow, the basket isn't delivered, the eggs not hidden, the presents not under the tree, etc. You WILL start questioning the existence of the others. If "god" does nothing, people make excuses for him, and stubbornly cling to his existence.

[MadisonProgressive]

28. Yes, I'm very diplomatic about it

You notice I said "IF the shoe fits". I'm not making any judgement on whether it fits or not...:evilgrin:

[eridani]

37. My Linux geek hubby does, however--

--call WinDoz users "users," roughly in the same tone of voice that a Hell's Angel uses when saying "citizen."

[formernaderite]

10. LOL...kind of like the support anyone we nominate argument

who cares if they're basically a repub....we'll still WINNNNNN!!!!!

[Dongfang Hong]

13. I can't see how one

would rather lose with a pure candidate than replace a 90% evil one with a 40% evil one.

[Dongfang Hong]

12. I actually agree with most of those statements.

Or at least Militant Vegans and Alt. Energy. People don't like haughty tsk-tsking, they don't like moralistic sermons (unless they agree with them), and they don't like holier-than-thou sneering. And sneering atheists, sneering vegans, and sneering anti-SUVers all make liberalism less appealing, and by contrast conservativism more appealing.

Atheists who happily sit at home not worshipping the invisible skyman are benign. Atheists who bash Christians do cost us votes. Vegans who happily frequent vegan-friendly restaurants and leave everyone else alone are benign. Vegans and animal-rights activists who call people murderers for their hamburgers, on the other hand, cost us votes. People who push for auto efficiency standards gain us votes. People who scoff at the small penises of SUV drivers cost us small-penised votes. Catch more flies with honey and all that.

[BiggJawn]

14. Seeing how you're new here and all...

The point I'm making is that out of ALL the militant "My way or NOWAY" factions you'll find here on DU, the only ones who gets told to "STFU because you're costing us votes" are the Atheists. Not even the Ralph freaks get told they're costing us votes. Elections, yes, but votes? no. Oh, there's some hinting around in "code words" about Gay Marriage costing votes, but it's not PC to come right out and accuse the Gays of costing the Party votes like it is the Gawdless.

It's a long-standing DU tradition. People aren't buying the "ReTHUGlican Lite" message of Jowly Joe and Evan Bought? The latest cooked poll has Il Douche's approval at 41%? Well, never mind Canada, Blame the Atheists.

welcome aboard!

[Dongfang Hong]

23. Ah. Well, I'm pretty sure that every militant faction costs its party

votes, so yeah. You did ask "So tell me again how the Atheists are "costing the Democrats votes"?" And I'm sure the militant ones who bash Christians do.

[Inland]

60. Everything costs. What does the OP refuse to give up regardless of cost?

Everthing costs something, simply because a party can't be all things to all people. So the issue is, is the "something" worth it?

While the OP wants to pretend that its position is that party is to be inclusive of atheists and that such is worth the cost (it is, and it is, IMO) the OP is clearly implying that the party is to be inclusive of bashing of believers and THAT is worth the cost.

Me, I say that indulging in bashing of about 80% of the country for the pure fun of it is not worth the cost, not to a political party. For all the good times that it is to call someone insane or stupid or credulous, if one really wants a liberal or democratic government, it's not worth gratuitous alienation, even if they are a little nutso and believe in talking donkeys. And for someone who thinks it IS worth it, the one mandatory theme of DU is liberal and democratic, and they should go get their yucks somewhere else.

[Inland]

35. And although you are pretty new here, you did hit it on the head.

Welcome to DU.

[eridani]

38. I see. People who tell us who to marry and when we must reproduce--

--aren't in the slightest bit "moralistic."

[Dongfang Hong]

56. Oh, of course they are, and you're a fool if you don't think

that turns non-fundamentalists away from the Republican party. Unfortunately, the difference is that there are many, many more conservative Christians than there are militant atheists.

[greiner3]

15. Whaaaaaaaaaat!?!

Athiests unite. I say that we all band together, form a faith based charity and all get rich. We could preach science, peace, love and all those athiestic values!

[quisp]

16. heheh, good one

I fell for and clicked thru.

heheh

[TheFarseer]

17. Atheists themselves are not

SOME atheists who insist on bringing lawsuits to get "In God We Trust" off the money and "under God" out of the pledge or who sue over a short prayer for no injuries before a high school basketball game ARE turning some Christians off of the democratic party. This kind of stuff is non-sensical IMO. How does any of that really hurt anyone? It's not like they are making you go to church or tithe or anything. If you don't like it, don't pay any attention to it. Now when they try to apply Christian law to medical decisions for individuals etc, then I have a big problem with that, otherwise, just let them say their little prayer before the game and let them sing their little song at the Christmas play. I realize almost no one will agree with me on this, but that's how I feel.

[BiggJawn]

19. well, you ARE entitled to your opinion....

And you're right, I do disagree with you.

Here in Indiana, f'instance, our "World's Worst Legislature" is in the habit of opening each day's "business" with a prayer. No big deal, right? What could be wrong with just a "little prayer"?

Well, it got out of hand. The invited preachers started to think they were among the flock and were doing everything but giving an alter Call and passing the plate. several non-Chrisitan members of the body were made so uncomfortable that they left the chamber during these carrying-ons.

One of those "Nonsensical" lawsuits you were talking about was filed to to remove references to a specific Deity in the opening prayer. The court found for the Plantiff, House Speaker Brian Bosma appealed the descision, the judge reconsidered, and reaffrimed his earlier ruling.

Frankly, I got no problem with them singing their little songs at the Xmas play. Nor do I really care if the graduating class gets together and picks the preacher's kid to give the invocation at Graduation.

BUT....when you take the story of Genesis, wrap it up in some psuedo-scince bullshit and try to get it taught in the schools as FACT, or you have the opening of a governmental body look like the church scene from "The Blues Brothers", THEN I have a problem with it.

Since it has been demonstrated time and again that the camel can not keep from pushing more than his nose through the tent-flap, the best policy is to keep the animal out of the campsite.

[TheFarseer]

21. It looks like we basically agree

I certainly don't want our kids being dumbed-down with ID and I don't think what happened in Indiana sounds appropriate but I don't think it's necessary and certainly not "worth it" to try and wipe out a few benign, scattered references to God.

[BiggJawn]

27. Scattered today, obligatory tomorrow.

Don't forget, these are the people who say "EVERY knee shall BEND, EVERY head shall Bow".

We ignore or dismiss them at our extreme peril. Jefferson could see that, even though Pat Robertson says that his idea of an "Impenetrable Wall" is a "Leftist Lie".

[Solon]

57. So citizens should NOT to stand up for their rights?

What type of bullshit is this? Some people should just put up and shut up, is that it? Move to Saudi Arabia then! Jesus H. Christ, I'm not even an Atheist and what you said offends ME!!!!

[area51]

18. "You Linux users..."

Blasphemer! :evilgrin:

[cascadiance]

20. Yup, and us agnostics are driving away atheists and religious people!

We don't want dogmatic believers or unbelievers in our party! There!!! :)

[Festivito]

22. SOME atheists COST us votes.

Religion is trickier than Linux/Windows, Vegitarians/Carnivores, energy, schools, etc. That's why it got its own Amendment and in two parts no less.

The essential difference that I see is the difference between
building separation of church and state and
requiring separation of church and state.

The ACLU holds that the 1st Amendment "requires" separation of church and state, which I find counterproductive to building a wall of separation. I think this difference has effected the problems we have with each other. And the problem we have in losing a large voting block.

[robbedvoter]

25. Ya think God will forgive them? Poppy sez they aren't even citizens

so, maybe we should take their rights to vote?

We need a holly water test at the poling places - I bet them atheists can't stand the touch - or is that werewolves?

[Festivito]

31. Huh? Your post is not clear.

A god might or might not, and your concern for a answer is questionable.
Poppy is no longer a president. Does something make this worth answering.
I don't recall that statement, it is not something I support.
I find no reason that voting rights should be removed, nor that anyone is trying to take voting away from atheists. I'd like to know. I'd help fight that.
I don't practice anything that involves holy water.

Perhaps the little icon with the hammer is indicative of something that has happened to you one too many times.

[robbedvoter]

33. The hammering sensation came from reading your post. You're right.

I'll spare myself the pain next time. Anyone who ignores the fact that the past 3 elections were stolen and instead blames any group of "us" for the fictional "win" makes my head hurt. And want to hammer Kerry over the head, because this confusion is ultimately his fault.

[Festivito]

36. I recall good posts from you.

These prior two are inadequate.

I talked about votes, not elections with subsequent theft.

I answered the original post question, not some incoherent ramblings that tangent within your mind.
If you want to do some good, try actually reading and responding to what is said.

[LoZoccolo]

29. For one, by generally equating evangelical Christians with the GOP...

...and their policies. A notion that the GOP themselves promotes, because it is a strategy that they themselves picked as an efficient one to win. Go back to the threads just after election day 2004 and you'll see lots of DUers taking the bait and promoting this disproven idea. Why allow them to fight according to plan?

And I would never say it is all atheists, just the atheist fundies.

[LittleClarkie]

30. And of course it works the other way too

Christian liberals, you're driving away the atheists!

We get confused, because there is a contingent also saying "Christian liberals! Speak out against your rightwing brothers!"

Talk. Shut up. Stay out of politics. Get into politics to offset the Religious Right.

Hrm...

[Kurovski]

32. K&R

:thumbsup:

Why, at this late date, would anyone believe Right-Wing spin, let alone make it their own?

I suppose the folks who think atheists are chasing off voters also think gay marriage will destroy their own hetero marriage through some mysterious process only they can comprehend.

Anyhoo, why would a Christian WANT to join the Republican Party of thieves, liars and war-lovers? Certainly most Democrats are smart enough to figure out there is little of Christ's work being done in that cesspool of a political party known as Republican. It appears there is nowhere to turn.

Oh, woe is us!!

I would be mostly suspicious of anyone who argued that atheists turn voters away from Dems. Sounds more like agitators causing trouble. "Divide and conquer", as they say.

[Inland]

34. How? By being a snot, that's how.

Some people are chased away by the mere fact of atheists being welcome in the dem party. They are lost, no worries.

Others are chased away, not by atheism per se, but by the sneering and the denigration, for example, somebody implicitly equating religious belief with a choice of canned beers. That's a complete waste, for it is people being shooed away by dumb, insulting stuff.

It may pain you to know this, but it isn't the atheism that drives away moderate believers. It's the smartass smug sneering and the baseless assertion of superiority.

Since you asked.

[Maru Kitteh]

41. here here. I would say Amen

but someone might smite me with a really progressive and tolerant spaghetti graphic.

[Inland]

54. a good example.

It's not particularly witty or funny or insightful. And I don't think it's MEANT to be.

[Maru Kitteh]

here here. I would say Amen

but someone might smite me with a really progressive and tolerant spaghetti graphic.

[Maru Kitteh]

here here. I would say Amen

but someone might smite me with a really progressive and tolerant spaghetti graphic.

[Maru Kitteh]

42. here here. I would say Amen

but someone might smite me with a really progressive and tolerant spaghetti graphic.

[Maru Kitteh]

43. Wow. Spastic trigger

or divine intervention. LOL.

[Ediacara]

45. So... smugness is only seen in atheists?

I seem to recall a number of Christians with smugness readings off the charts, even in my own Party. By your logic, Barack Obama should be driving non-Christians (a full 25% of the US population) away from the Democrats in droves.

[Inland]

47. So......set up straw men much?

Who said smugness is only seen in atheists? A simple post gets a non-response requiring me to list the faults of christians, and changes the subject. Oh, well.

By MY logic, the republican party should be driving non-christians away in droves. And it does.

[Ediacara]

48. You should look up the definition of "strawman" and "non-response"

I was responding directly to the poor argument in this paragraph of your post:

"It may pain you to know this, but it isn't the atheism that drives away moderate believers. It's the smartass smug sneering and the baseless assertion of superiority."

You imply pretty clearly that atheists are the ones with the problem, and they're the ONLY ones.

[Inland]

50. Is it in the same dictionary you find "imply"?

Is it the "Humpty Dumpty's Unabridged"?

Enough bullshit. I implied no such thing. What I actually said, and that's all I'm going to discuss with you, was true.

[Ediacara]

58. If you didn't mean to say what one could easily get from what you wrote

....well sorry, I can't read minds :-) Try to be a little clearer next time you write something that could be easily perceived as a blanket attack.

[Inland]

59. If there weren't so many objections about "coddling" chrisitians

when a blanket attack is ACTUALLY made, I might give on that. But there's no consistent approach, so I won't. Fact is, if blanket and negative generalizations of believers and christians weren't being made, and defended, I wouldn't be posting in this thread at all. So I won't be putting in additional verbiage to remove an implication I didn't make.

It's not about you or your posts. There's a lot of water under the bridge, and the thread itself gives a pretty good sampler.

[banana republican]

39. win-doze is merely a linux clone

i like linus because

no one writes viruses for it

it is more secure that win-doze

it is cheaper than win-doze. ( i have donated to debian)

it's software is better written

even if you must run win-doze you can still wine about it.......

[Maru Kitteh]

40. Do you wish yourself to be called significant and/or influential or not?

Make up your mind.

If you think I give a flying figaro what you believe or do not believe you suffer from an exaggerated sense of self. I don't.

I will say this, I have yet to see a horde of Christian Democrats or DU'ers assault atheists with the belittling and offensive arrows, comments and missives aimed at them by the atheists who always cry persecution. Atheists are persecuted in the world and if you expect the rest of us to continue to take up your cause you had better well damn stop attacking those of us in your corner.

If you can't behave - go get your own God Damned political party. :-)

[Ediacara]

46. You've yet to see the horde?

No offense, but I suggest you look harder. DUers are generally nicer than the general population re: religion, but that doesn't at all mean that meanness towards non-believers doesn't exist here. The very premise of this thread (atheists are supposedly costing dems votes) is in fact a threat, a thinly coded message saying, "believe or shut up OR ELSE!"

Is that not belittling or offensive?

[IronLionZion]

44. Democrats are costing the Democrats votes

Fortunately our chairman is changing that with some serious grass-roots organizing and a 50-state strategy.

Read Howard Dean's book, then read Zell Miller's book. The message is shockingly similar. We have to be national party. Friends don't let friends get corrupted by special interests.

[eppur_se_muova]

49. It's the extremists who are costing us votes...like these people ( link)

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/04/08/DDG27BCFLG1.DTL&type=printable

[NuttyFluffers]

52. sorry, i'm used to the other spelling of 'il duce'... *snicker*...

but if you want to suggest our commander in chief is a malicious feminine hygiene product, please i wholeheartedly support you!
:evilgrin:
i agree, * is quite the 'ill douche'!
:7

[Time for change]

53. Having atheists in our party doesn't cost us votes, but

if lots of them express contempt for Christians or people of other religions, I can see where that could cause a problem.

I have seen some DUers do that. Well, perhaps if they confine those opinions to the DU, maybe it won't do too much harm. But I can see where some liberal Christians would be upset by some of the comments expressed about them on the DU, and how that would cause them not to participate in this forum.

And BTW I am not a Christian.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

55. Of course Atheist just being themselves aren't doing any damage at all

However I do think that Fundamentalist Atheist who attack the tenants of Christianity while also identifying themselves as Democrats doesn't do us any favors.

But you know thats true of any religious Fundamentalist(and atheism is simply another religion). When Muslim Fundamentalist kill innocents, that of course hurts all Muslims and does ancillary damage to their political ambitions as well. When Tim Mcveigh did his evil deed, surely that hurt Christianity and didn't make the Republicans look very well either.

So its not so much the religion, as it is the behavior of the Fundamentalist of that religion, and Atheism is no more exempt from this, than any other belief system.


(For those of you who reject the the idea of Atheism being a religion, its my contention Atheism is just as provable and not provable as any other belief system based on the unknowable. If you disagree, thats fine, I respect your opinion, just please respect mine :) )