How would you advise the Democrats to handle this spy scandal?

[kentuck]

Assuming that every Democrat wants to get the truth about who was spied upon and why? Few Democrats have a problem with spying on possible "enemies". The problem seems to be with the idea that we do not know who was spied upon? Was it journalists? Was it members of the opposition Party? Was it just common citizens? We don't know but the people deserve to know. They deserve to know if the President has broken the law. It is not acceptable to sweep it under the rug and we cannot permit the Republicans to do that. So what would you advise the Democrats to do?

[stray cat]

1. Call for an investigation to see if laws were broken

Don't let the repubs make it a security issue if laws need changed for security they can be changed legally by congress. The issue is not even wiretapping. It is about no president being above the law. It is about checks and balances that are more important in war then any other time.

[RagingInMiami]

2. "It's the constitution, stupid"

Drill that in everybody's head until they finally get it.

[zann725]

29. Never let up...let go. Don't lie down. Filibuster...be Partisan w/o shame

Be Dems. This IS a core issue. If the Dems can't defend this outrage to the Constitution...they need voted out.

[MichiganVote]

3. Dog him, ride em' hard and carry a spare set of six shooters

But, they probably won't and that will be that. The idea of raising hell seems to utterly escape them.

[Jackpine Radical]

38. If your aim is good,

you only need 1 six-shooter to get a majority in the Senate.

[unblock]

4. just assume it is, and take repreated denials as confirmation

"we are hearing reports that political opponents have been spied upon"
"i am hearing of improper use of wiretaps"
"we are calling on the president to make the entire list available in order to clear his name"
"there are reports that someone in the white house -- we don't know who -- may have used an illegal wiretap to spy on his wife"

....

[Harper_is_Bush]

5. Explain why it wasn't neccessary to spy without FISA.

That point is LOST on America!!

Bush sits up there and keeps saying "Ah was elected to protect, an' that's wah ah'm gunna do!"
and the media just let's him say it without enough (there is some, to be fair) questioning of the logic.

THERE WAS NO NEED FOR IT!!!! HE COULD HAVE SPIED ON AMERICANS ON AMERICAN SOIL UNDER FISA IF NEED BE!!

Take away the argument that he needed it. He didn't need it.

[globalvillage]

8. I agree.

The only reason for going around FISA was to hide who they were spying on.
So who was being spied on that FISA wouldn't have approved?
They will avoid answering that question, though, by not answering the question.

[EVDebs]

13. Since it was illegal spying, now the nonFISA cases will be reviewed !

If there was hankypanky, do you think we'll see oversight by the FISA court to review these cases ? Do you think the Bush admin will allow oversight of their illegal acts ? A special prosecutor is needed NOW and the clock is ticking.....

[globalvillage]

20. I did not suggest FISA review these cases after the fact.

I asked who was being wiretapped that the admin bypassed FISA in the first place.
Yes, a special prosecutor. I agree.

[EVDebs]

37. These, what, four yrs worth of cases, indeed will have to be reviewed

By FISA, which is why that one FISA judge probably resigned in protest. Most courts are already overloaded due to the failed war on drugs. Now comes the FISA cases, like it or not.

Who legally should review these spying cases if not FISA (with a duly designated Inspector General of NSA along with a Special Prosecutor selected by Congress) ? Why would you trust ANY of them; 'in the first place' all legal channels were bypassed, globalvillage.

Remember, "R's" control all branches of government creating de facto one-party rule in the US. W/O accountability or oversight the current 'scandal du jour' is leading to daily water torture for this government by corporate fiat.

Madame de Farge continues her knitting !

[ClassWarrior]

6. Like a baseball bat.

Choke up and swing hard.

NGU.

[EVDebs]

7. Violation of due process: Blanket search and seizure of info

Read Spychips: How Major Corporations and Government Plan to Track Your Every Move with RFID by Katherine Albrecht. Then look into Global Information Group Ltd. in the Bahamas, run by intel-man Ben H. Bell III

Bahamas Firm Screens Personal Data To Assess Risk--Operation Avoids U.S. Privacy Rules
by Robert O'Harrow Jr.
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, October 16, 2004; Page A01

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36853-2004Oct15.html

and Spychips weblink http://www.spychips.com/

Next ask yourself if Total Information Awareness hasn't been offshored, outsourced, and privatized.

If your information is already offshored (your bank records, loan file info, medical records) without your permission by corporations that you had no idea were doing the offshoring, then you need to ask 'how secure is MY personal information' in those offshored nations ?

The answer is that corporations are keeping this quiet:

""...Alan Paller, director of research at the Bethesda, Md.-based SANS Institute, said the California law is probably necessary because of the kinds of crime that are occurring. A group in Russia and Ukraine has been acquiring customer data, extorting money to prevent its release and then selling it anyway. Paller believes some companies are paying off the extortionists in an attempt to contain the damage""

http://www.computerworld.com/securitytopics/security/privacy/story/0,10801,76721,00.html

We also know that ChoicePoint hasn't kept US database info secure (if you've been reading the paper you already know this). So since MY information is being offshored and traded without my permission, I'd like to be compensated for MISUSE of that information beyond just merely being notified when it has been lost or compromised.

I'm a capitalist you see and don't like abuse of customers...especially ME. With the current FTC 'oversight' system being nothing more than a bad joke and rubberstamp for corporations demands, things will continue getting worse.

If your I.D. has been stolen lately you know what I mean. I hold the corporation more responsible for not safeguarding the information to begin with.

Fascism is Corporatism if you haven't figured it out by now. As Scott McNeely of Sun Microsystems once said

You have no privacy. Get over it. --Scott McNeely, CEO, Sun Microsystems

No, Scott, I won't get over it.

[eallen]

9. The ONLY issue was the lack of oversight & presidential power grab.

Bush isn't in trouble for using wiretaps -- that goes on all the time. He isn't in trouble for spying on suspected terrorist -- he is correct that that is his job. He is in trouble because he developed a program to spy on programs with a complete lack of oversight by Congress or the judiciary. All he had to do was get FISA warrants. Which can be obtained after the fact. Instead, he thumbed his nose at the Constitution, and made a presidential power grab quite reminiscent of Nixon.

[EVDebs]

11. BULLSHIT. Corporations have offshored databases

As with Global Information Group in the Bahamas to do what they couldn't legally get away with inside the USA. Total Information Awareness (or whatever they renamed it now) is offshored, privatized, and outsourced for complete 'plausible deniability'.

Corporate complicity with insiders in the 'intelligence' community are allowing this to go on without ANY oversight or regulation. Beyond that the information may even be compromised. That's right, they may have the wrong information on you. What legal system do you go through to fix that ? That's right, there ISN'T one, the Dept of Justification ooops Justice has no jurisdiction offshore ! I can see it now, "DOJ, Bangalore Office".

Fascism is Corporatism. Mussolini had that one right on the money.

In the meantime the FBI is busy interrogating strippers, apparently the fruits of this NSA operation
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x484

[stray cat]

10. A president is not above the law

Laws can be changed by the congress at the request of a president. The supreme court will decide its legality. The president can not simply break whatever law he finds inconvenient.

Also, the president is allowed 72 hours of surveillance while he gets a top secret warrant. What was Bush doing that this wasn't good enough?

[man4allcats]

12. It's not about who was spied upon.

It's about Bush putting himself above the law. This has recently been and continues to be extensively covered in the media, and yes, now even in the mainstream media. There is no question as to how to handle it. Jonathan Schell is somewhat more polite than I but almost as direct in his article in The Nation. It is well worth the read, but let me simply paraphrase it here:

Impeach the Little Bastard!

[longship]

14. Impeachment

nt

[stilpist]

Vote for Impeachment! Vote for a Democrat!

Enough is Too Much!
...
...
...
...
Oh,yes. And together, we can do better. (What pathetic crap)

[jarab]

15. Don't have an idea, but most of my ...

conservative/libertarian friends - and I do claim them - are bent out of shape over the spying.
They're saying,"Constitution, constitution, constitution ..." - and they're mad as hell at *.
...O...

[Vidar]

16. Follow Conyer's lead and call for impeachment.

[robbedvoter]

17. DON"T "HANDLE" IT!!! FIGHT IT!

For once in your pathetic politician lives, follow your heart! Give a damn about democracy - it's possibly your last chance anyway...
Please don't hedge, don't talk like lawyers or accountants - or, well, politicians. Speak the truth for once.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

18. Have someone use the

F word (fascism) and someone with little to lose, use the H*t**r word.

That will stir things up good.

Not sure if I would really advise or try to do this, it's just off the cuff from a tired me.

;)

[zapp]

19. 1) DONT LAY DOWN!

2) DONT LAY DOWN
3) DONT LAY DOWN

[rainy]

21. re-frame the debate. It is not about wiretapping.

ITS ABOUT ONE MAN NOT BEING ABOVE THE LAW. NO ONE has a problem with wiretapping our enemies. But, of course, there are LAWS.

[LiberalEsto]

22. Town meetings with constituents

Build up a solid base of citizen support
then demand open hearings and a GAO investigation

[radio4progressives]

23. The first thing that the Dems should have done is to demand that

the president CEASE AND DESIST with this domestic spying program - NOW..

Not a fucking a word in that regard has been said, just that there will be investigations after the recess.

This is completely insane. Where are the Democrats?

[0007]

24. With the attitude that Daniel Ellsberg did when he was facing

130 fucking years in prison for copying the Pentagon Papers.

Risk is what's is all about when it comes to your country.

Things change fast when it comes to YOUR ass and when it's on the line.

[Nimrod2005]

25. Hearings and investigations, then impeach and imprison!!!

[Lexingtonian]

26. basically, keep on grinding away at it

and get as much information and such as possible until it becomes relevant. So far there aren't any obvious victims, or successes, resulting from the abuses.

As I see it, it's simply not adequate material for grandiose public politics at this point in time- The People wants some concrete stuff dealt with first.

In six months, when the Republican Congress has run out of useful things to do and its whole governance and cred are at issue, that's when to take all the lack-of-accountability/rule-of-law things off the back burner.

[Blutodog]

27. IMPEACHMENT instead of Discussion:

The DEMOS as a group in Congress should demand a independent counsel to investigate Bu$h's admitted breaking of the FISA law. If they don't and they let him get away with this latest outrage they're essentially syaing we surrender your KING. I tend to think that they will do NOTHING!!

[kentuck]

28. First of all, they need to frame it honestly...

This happened because the majority Party, the Republicans, failed to do their job of oversight. Then, we explain that we must investigate in a non-partisan way to find the facts. We vow to get to the bottom of it. We are the Party that will protect the American people by defending the Constitution of our country. That is why we fight wars to begin with. An iron fist in a velvet glove.

(edited to add last sentence)

[windbreeze]

30. See if this means anything....

Truman created the NSA via a secret presidential exec. order on 11/4/52...(secret because the number was completely different than what was considered normal successive numbers for exec. orders)

The primary purpose of the NSA was to decipher alien communication, language, and establish a dialogue with extra terrestrials...primary purpose most important..
Secondary purpose was to monitor all communications and any emissions from any and all electronic devices worldwide, for the purpose of gathering intelligence, both human and alien...

Here comes the tricky part...
By Executive order of the President...The NSA is exempt from all laws which do not specifically name the NSA in the text of the law as being subject to that law...That means if the agency is not spelled out in the text of any and every law passed by Congress it is not subject to that or those laws...

So it would seem that unless Congress HAS passed a law, declaring that it is unlawful for the NSA to continue to monitor all communications/emissions from any/all electronic devices worldwide for the purpose of gathering intelligence both human/alien....then they have not broken the law...

Does anyone know if Congress has passed such a law?
windbreeze

[kentuck]

33. Yes, it's called the FISA law...

Passed after the escapades of the Nixon years. Everybody is aware of them.

[windbreeze]

34. I have never read the law...

Even though I know about it...and I wasn't aware if it was specific enough...
windbreeze

[kentuck]

36. I think it has been posted here on DU in its entirety and in parts...

for the last 2 or 3 weeks? It's very specific. There is no ambiguity. Seventy-two hours to get a warrant after you have spied upon someone or 15 days, if it is in a war, to get the warrants from the FISA court. It's been thouroughly discussed.

[windbreeze]

39. sorry

to be such a pita, I had other committments the last two weeks, and obviously missed previous discussions...

"Seventy-two hours to get a warrant after "you"(who exactly? the original executive order specifies that the NSA itself, HAS to be named in ANY laws Congress passes, in order for those laws to affect that particular agency and the way they operate) etc., etc.,"......so as long as there is NO ambiguity, and the FISA law IS very specific...no problem...I apparently have misunderstood..and don't have a valid point after all...

[TayTay]

31. Keep harping on the angle that the Prez believes he is above the law

Bush ran on his appearance as a regular guy, someone that you would want to sit down and have a beer with and talk. This NSA scandals shows that he really sees himself as aloof, above the law and unaccountable to the people.

Play up the contrast and the inherent lies in this posturing. This man is not who he says he is and he cannot be trusted to run anything more important than a lemonaide stand.

[mmonk]

32. Show the people that more than "terrorists" are being

spied on. Bring up the constitution and checks and balances every chance you get.

[xchrom]

35. first i think it's a one word answer: aggressively.

beyond that -- is the whole concept of how we have handled the approach to al qaeda -- and possible other terrorist organizations.

for my money the democratic party should argue aggressively that the problem of al qaeda has been exacerbated by the war in iraq == and that the ways and means to effectively counter, capture , arrest or kill al qaeda cells in america already exist -- all quite legal with no unnecessary mass wire tapping of general populations or quakers.

it's the same with the problem of al qaeda the world over -- this always should have been a police action -- we new that our electronic surveillance wasn't doing the job -- we needed agents planted within these organisations to counter them.
and those were the appropriate actions -- and still are.

no government should be relying on surveillance that results in spying on the public at large -- they can only be looking for information that has nothing to with terrorist activity.

[Neil Lisst]

40. Elected Democrats must get off their butts and attack on this issue.

The party leaders have been weak the past few weeks.

WHERE ARE YOU?!!

Sometimes they remind me of coaching grade school kids play ball. You're ready to play and they're off to get a snow cone.

Our leadership needs to show some leadership. They left town like college kids at Christmas break. Like nothing else but taking a break matters.

They need to start conducting rump hearings, where they assemble as if a congressional commmittee, and hear from witnesses who will voluntarily appear. They should air all the administration's dirty laundry regarding NSA, Plame, and every other area where Bush has gone too far.

[moondust]

41. Do not let Pugs distort the issue.

As one C-Span caller this morning predicted: (paraphrased) "In 2006 there will be a terrorist attack on the U.S. bigger than 9/11 because Democrats were whining about wiretapping and that prevented the gov't from protecting us."

They will twist this up into something it is not and try to scare the crap out of people as they always do. This is NOT about preventing the gov't from wiretapping on legitimate targets.