Bush's failed war -- Kurds showing signs of secession; civil war looming?

[ProSense]

Kurds in Iraqi army proclaim loyalty to militia
By Tom LasseterKnight Ridder Newspapers
KIRKUK, Iraq - Kurdish leaders have inserted more than 10,000 of their militia members into Iraqi army divisions in northern Iraq to lay the groundwork to swarm south, seize the oil-rich city of Kirkuk and possibly half of Mosul, Iraq's third-largest city, and secure the borders of an independent Kurdistan.

Five days of interviews with Kurdish leaders and troops in the region suggest that U.S. plans to bring unity to Iraq before withdrawing American troops by training and equipping a national army aren't gaining traction. Instead, some troops that are formally under U.S. and Iraqi national command are preparing to protect territory and ethnic and religious interests in the event of Iraq's fragmentation, which many of them think is inevitable.

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/13495329.htm


Posted on Tue, Dec. 27, 2005
Many Iraqi soldiers see a civil war on the horizon
By Tom LasseterKnight Ridder Newspapers
KIRKUK, Iraq - Passions run deep for the Arab and Kurdish soldiers who wear the Iraqi army uniform.

Kirkuk lies just a few miles from one of the nation's largest oil fields, worth billions of dollars. Arabs figure that the city's oil wealth should belong to Iraq, while ethnic Kurds see it as part of a future nation of Kurdistan.

"If the Kurds want to separate from Iraq it's OK, as long as they keep their present boundaries," said Sgt. Hazim Aziz, an Arab soldier who was stubbing out a cigarette in a barracks room. "But there can be no conversation about them taking Kirkuk. ... If it becomes a matter of fighting, then we will join any force that fights to keep Kirkuk. We will die to keep it."


http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/13495281.htm


This is the devastating consequence every one warned about -- destabilizing the region.

[yourout]

1. Civil war is not a matter of if....its a matter of when.

I truly belive the greatest threat to mankind is religious extremism in any form.

[IndianaGreen]

2. Bush hasn't failed!

Everyone that opposed the war in Iraq predicted the consequences of toppling Saddam and the Baathists, including civil war and Turkish intervention against the Kurds. Bush knew all of that but he plunged on, believing that he was on some mission from his god.

Bush has succeeded! All of the doomsday predictions are coming true. Iraq will become another Lebanon. Iran will become the most powerful nation in the Middle East. Islamic extremism will run rampant for generations to come.

[FloridaPat]

3. There was one more that hasn't come true yet - the invasion of

Iraq would bring Jesus down from heaven and I guess drop Him off in Washington DC on a cloud to thank *.

[Blue_In_AK]

4. I thought it was very interesting seeing the secular Shia

and Sunnis marching in the streets to protest the election of the radical religious right candidates. It seems so reminiscent of the U.S. Are the Sunnis like the Iraqi Unitarians?

[FloridaPat]

5. If the Kurds leave, who's going to stop them? They've been on

their own for decades.

[paulk]

11. Turkey and Iran

are not going to look favorably on an independent Kurdish state on their borders.

Especially one with the oil resources that a breakaway Iraqi Kurdish state would have - resources that could be used to fund successionist movements among both Turkey and Iran's large Kurdish populations.

[High Plains]

15. They've been on their own since 1991

After the first Gulf War.

[ProSense]

6. Bush never wanted a free Iraq. n/t

[No Exit]

7. Related story: Israeli ex-commandos are training the Kurds

"Israel Ex-commandos Training Kurds in North Iraq: Report

Operating from a secret desert stronghold, the Israeli soldiers have been training the Kurds in weapons, self-defense and anti-terror techniques.


CAIRO, December 1, 2005 (IslamOnline.net) - Dozens of former Israeli commandos have been training Kurdish security forces in northern Iraq, supplying them with equipment worth millions of dollars, Yedioth Aharonot newspaper reported Thursday, December 1.

Over the past 18 months, these ex-commandos, who were sent to Iraq by several Israeli corporations, have been training special security units as part of a program organized by the Kurdish authorities, said Israel's top-selling daily.

Operating from a secret desert stronghold dubbed Code Z, the ex-Israeli soldiers, all with elite-unit experience, have been training the Kurds in weapons, self-defense and anti-terror techniques.

The newspaper showed photographs of men it said were Israelis, their faces concealed, training Kurds in the use of weapons at an unknown location and preparing vehicles at an airport.

The New Yorker veteran investigative reporter Seymour Hersh said Israeli intelligence and military operatives were quietly at work in northern Iraq, providing training for Kurdish commando units and running covert operations inside Kurdish areas of Iran and Syria.

Israeli Arms

According to the Israeli daily, Motorola Israel and Magalcom Communications and Computers won contracts with the Kurdish government to the tune of hundreds of millions of US dollars.

As part of the program, the firms have supplied the Kurds with tones of Israeli-manufactured equipment, including dozens of motorcycles and all-terrain vehicles, sniffer dogs, devices for upgrading Kalashnikov rifles, flack jackets, uniforms and helmets.

They have also been involved in the secret construction of a major airport near the northern town of Arbil, known as "Hawler International".

The Israelis entered Iraq through its northern border with Turkey posing as construction engineers and agricultural experts, the paper said."

(snip)

http://www.islamonline.org/English/News/2005-12/01/article05.shtml

[No Exit]

8. Would someone please explain to me how it will harm me personally

if what is now called Iraq were to split into three regions/countries/whatever, one for each of the main warring ethnic groups?

I'm not being sarcastic; I really want to know!

[hadrons]

9. Kurds separating could draw NATO ally Turkey into Iraq ....

they won't like that ... Saudi Arabia, Syria, and other Sunni-led countries won't like seeing another Shiite-led country (Iran's the only one) ... things are contained in Iraq, but this could bust borders

increased military spending and higher oil prices could be in the future

[No Exit]

10. Well...

there seems to be tension btw the Kurds and Turkey, and it apparently is not unrelated to the cozy relationship the Kurds (at least, the ones in Iraq) have with Israel--the Kurds have got contracts with Israel, and have Israeli ex-commandos training their forces.

And as you said, the Sunni-led countries wouldn't like there to be a new Shiite region or country.

But there seems to be something in this division for everyone: There might be, for example, a Sunni region (Saudi Arabia and Syria would approve), a Shiite region (Iran would approve) and a Kurdish region (Israel would approve).

Increased military spending? Yeah, but only if we INSIST on continuing to interfere. Higher oil prices? I think we all know that oil prices are going to climb in the future, regardless of what happens. I, of course, can only judge by what I pay at the pump. I still remember when the price of a gallon of regular was well under $2.00. (It was only a year ago!) But, no more. And often we may think that matters in the middle east are leading to higher oil prices, when it actually turns out to be just the oil companies gouging.

And wasn't this takeover liberation of Iraq supposed to lead to more oil for us, which was supposed to lead to lower prices? Bwaaahaha!

[IndianaGreen]

12. The Shias won't let the Kurds in Iraq and in Iran secede

from their respective countries. The Shias will use brute force to putdown any Kurdish nationalistic dreams. Turkey will also intervene to prevent the establishment of an independent Kurdistan, for the Turks have a Kurdish problem of their own.

Israel is not about to jeopardize her excellent relations with Turkey by siding with the Kurds. When push comes to shove, Israel will side with Turkey.

A civil war will spill over into neighboring countries. Worse case scenario: All the Arabs side with their Suni brethren in Iraq, the Persians side with the Iraqi Shias, everyone turns on the Kurds, the corrupt Arab monarchies fall and are replaced by Wahabbi radicals.

[hadrons]

13. And wasn't this takeover liberation of Iraq supposed to lead to more oil

"The greatest thing to come out of this for the world economy, if you could put it that way, would be $20 a barrel for oil. That's bigger than any tax cut in any country." -- Rupert Murdoch

Bwaaahaha!

[tsuki]

14. But the majority of Kurds are Sunni, a liberal variety for sure, but

Sunni. They are Indo-European and speak a form of Farsi.

The Failis are Shiites, but they are in the minority.