We have problems, and they won't get better without addressing them.

[madfloridian]

I am sure we all have noticed the spate of letters addressed only to Howard Dean...presenting all kinds of issues he has not solved yet. I see some of us saying why don't you write to others? Why don't you include them in your missives? Why just Howard Dean? But even as we ask, we know the answer. The word is going from groups that don't want the DNC to really succeed....that Dean is only being used to keep the grassroots in the party.

Why is that being said? Because a few want it to be believed. Then they think more people will withhold support.

My take on that is that if you think he is dumb enough to be used that way, think again. Really think it over.

There is a lot going on that is carrying over to other groups, even DFA. It is very sad, and it is not very wise. It is meant to benefit the ones who want 3rd party. Sadly I see some here who think it is time to leave the party. It is shocking to see it portrayed so openly here, not just discussion or critique of one wing....just leave, just split.

Unfortunately some have the impression there is somewhere to go. There really isn't right now. Disillusioned Republicans have no place to go either. There have been enough threads here from people who claim to have access to Howard Dean by phone, and yet they are absolutely unfair about things he stands for. I have watched as some in one group write articles and posts saying unfair things. Then when I try to present the case, I become the bad guy.

This is not going to go away. It is happening here tonight...the influence that is. It is kind of upsetting, because most of us realize that working within the party is about the only way right now....not trying to weaken it from the outside. In many cases this undermining of Dean and DNC is being done by those who are not Democrats at all, and will never vote Democratic anyway. We all know there are serious problems. One of the most serious is the leaders of the congressional committees choosing candidates for us in the primary, even when there is viable one. We can not fix that by undermining the DNC......we will only give the right wing of the party more power.

I have gathered some posts to show what I mean. They are sad, but we are coming down to serious stuff. I was a member of another group as well as DFA for a while, but I am not now. I know that DFA will not undermine the party, not just because of Howard Dean, but because it is the wrong thing to do at this crucial point in our history. I refer to these posts because there will be more of them. Even worse.

A leader of a progressive group says watch the video of Cindy and how she was so disappointed with Dean in their meeting. A meeting he wrote about which is in the thread. She is critical of other Democratic leaders as well, but the poster only emphasizes Dean.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4946098

Is Dean Drunk?
By a member of the board of this progressive group.
http://www.democrats.com/node/6284

And another post by the same leader again at Kos going after Dean
http://david-swanson.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/9/28/10422/6439

And from a response to me in the same thread about Cindy criticizing Dean.
A respected reporter here at DU says
"and if Dean didn't want to be criticized, he should have stayed in Vermont."

(Well frankly, I am glad he came along and did not stay in Vermont. )

A thread again all about Dean needing to get us out of Iraq. Other Democrats are not attacked or criticized, only the one who was against it.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3592698

And this post by a leader of the progressive group that completely was untrue about Howard Dean has always said about getting out of Iraq. It implied he changed his mind, he did not.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3531385

In this thread I was attacked for pointing out that they were misrepresenting Dean's stance. It was not pretty. Some in the post say Dean talks to them on the phone....if so, why the hell do they attack him so much? If you have such easy phone access to the DNC chairman, if your group is so welcome....why attack him so?

And another going after ONLY Dean about the war. Why just attack him on this issue? Why not other Democrats? Why not write letters to our Senators and our members in the House? Post them here as well.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3526058

So many of us are tired, not just of the "play-nice" Democrats on the right, but because of those on the other side who refuse absolutely to give a break. The only sounds we heard when Dean spoke out on Iraq this month were shouts from the right for him to shut up. Where were the progressives? Did I miss something? The blogs on the moderate left were silent indeed, and groups on the left said very little.

So what is going on is upsetting. We have a chance to in time rebuild the party where we might have a say. Because of the right and left groups who refuse to budge or compromise......we may not get that chance. By consistently undermining the leader of a group, you make that group less effective in a major battle. That is happening now.

To go after the one who has consistently spoken out more than other Democrats is telling. It is obvious. I thought most of it was over, but not yet.

And the most obvious was that they said that this blog he wrote about Cindy was a coverup, a pandering, and all kinds of things. Actually, most of us were glad he wrote it, because a whole lot of misrepresentation was going on. It was nice post about Cindy, it was kind and gracious. He did not deserve the contempt he got for writing it.
http://www.democrats.org/a/2005/09/meeting_with_ci.php

I will work with the DNC and DFA. I do that for a reason. I think it is the only way right now. I get angry at the party, but I don't blame just one man for it. Many of us will not forget how much blaming of just one man has been done so egregiously.

[radio4progressives]

1. What exactly about Cindy Sheehan's Pep Rally speech

do you disagree with?

I'm a very strong supporter of Howard Dean, in fact fought for his chairmanship nomination. But after he won it, in very first teleconference meeting that MoveOn helped set up, when Harry Reid and Howard Dean were the guest speakers - this is back last Feburary i think - neither one of them mentioned one word about Iraq. That was really fucked up. I was blown away.

I didn't go on the interent and talk about it, but i was very disappointed and it was the turning point for me and dfa because they didn't have a problem with Dean's remarks leaving out completely the question on Iraq.

I haven't read all these links, i looked at David Swanson diary on Kos, but I just listened/watched Cindy make her remarks, her comments on Dean may not have been with twinkling acolades, but that was NOT what I call an "attack".

Just a bit of critisim that he has to hear, whether or not it's deserving is a matter of opinion, but really is not that big of a deal in the world of political struggle - and that is what this is about.

We are STRUGGLING to get our party Leadership to END THE WAR NOW - it is literally a matter of Life and death.

All Cindy was doing here is simply "rallying the troops" - the amount of time devoted on Dean was minimal, and she did in fact aim her sharpest arrows to those who deserved it most.. (Bush)

I think people need to watch and listen to that video just to get a bit of perspective here... one item that got my attention was Cindy's report on her conversation with Senator Schumer, who said the Iraq War is "Great For America".

Personally I'm not at all surprised because I've called Schumer's office and spoke to his staff one day after one of those Sunday Morning shows where Schumer said that "if he had to do it over again, that he would vote the same way" (!) and this is recently AFTER the pre-war intel is shown to be completely fabicrated in all imbroglio of the Plame Leak affair. I got a similar response as Cindy did.

Madfloridian, this is the world of political activism and struggle over matters of major significance. people in positions of Leadership who do not do the right thing, need to feel the heat. This is not a "Sunday Brunch" where people are sitting around with their tea and scones - or back rooms filled with cigars and money changing hands.

Movements do not advance on their own volition unfortunately. Struggles by it's very nature is a battle ground of words and other actions to build the energy, get the support and create the pressure to make changes in policy.

I offer these thoughts for a bit of perspective, though your mileage may vary.... I wouldn't worry about Howard Dean from the progressive wing of the party, I'd worry about it from the DLC end, because it THEY who are doing the most damage - as evidenced by Sen. Schumer's remarks as an example.

[madfloridian]

2. If you think I was referring to "Sunday Brunch" stuff.....

then I failed completely to get my point across.

Yes, the progressive wing of the party is just as dangerous right now as the DLC. Because they do not believe in compromise at all...they are as dangerous as the DLC.

They will make every effort to bring down the DNC, instead of targeting the parts of the party that are hurting us the most. Instead of attacking Howard Dean and the DNC, why not put efforts on Rahm Emanuel and Chuck Schumer? They are the ones picking the candidates to suit them.

I don't see any letters here to Schumer or Rahm. I only see letters to Dean, who in actuality is one who cares the most about the grassroots.

Sorry you think I want Sunday Brunch. I was advocating not biting the one hand that might be there for us. But even as I say it, I know that some groups on the left which are made up of other than Democrats will continue to hurt the part of the party that is trying to bring change.

[radio4progressives]

4. This is simply not true . The PDA was the Very First To Endorse Dean..

as chair, and heavily promoted him.

the PDA has no intentions of "bringing down the DNC" - these are very people PDA is WORKING WITH.

Excuse me, please be SPECIFIC when you make those kinds of charges.

And please answer my question. What exactly did you disagree with in Cindy Sheehan's comments at that pep rally?

[welshTerrier2]

13. "they do not believe in compromise at all" ?????

really??? those of us who have had it with the war in Iraq refuse to compromise "at all" ?????

ummmmm, well, here ya go ... ready? are you sure? are you willing to stop making this bogus point after i offer a compromise????

OK ... here ya go ...

my preferred position: bring the troops home, all of them, by this weekend ...

my compromise position: you give me a near-term "date certain" (for total withdrawal of all American troops) with an understanding that from now until that date troops will be withdrawn as benchmarks are achieved and you have a deal ...

the problem that you have, and Dean has been ZERO HELP on this issue, is that there has been no intra-party negotiations ... now we have jackasses like Schumer telling us all the wonderful things we should know about Iraq ... and what's Dean's position? i heard him say the war is not winnable ... is this supposed to appeal to the anti-war crowd?? yeah, i agree with him - the war is not winnable ... has he called for a timeline? the last thing i heard from Dean was some crap about getting all the troops out within TWO YEARS ... TWO YEARS !!!!!!! and you want anti-war people to compliment him on this nonsense?????

the Party's elite members have not reached out to the anti-war wing of the Party ... it is bullshit to argue that the anti-war wing refuses to compromise ... THEY HAVE NOT BEEN OFFERED A COMPROMISE ... there are no discussions ... there is no progress ... there is no compromise ... there isn't even a process to achieve a compromise ...

stop blaming the left ... those with power are the ones who have to initiate a dialog ... Dean is most responsible as the Chair for failing to bring about a process that could lead to resolution ... those unwilling to negotiate are indeed at fault; to lay that blame on the left is bullshit ...

[madfloridian]

14. "Dean is most responsible as the Chair for failing to bring a process"

Your statement "Dean is most responsible as the Chair for failing to bring about a process that could lead to resolution ... those unwilling to negotiate are indeed at fault; to lay that blame on the left is bullshit ..."

That is exactly what I am talking about. Using him as the whipping boy for the war.

Where were these progressives when he did speak out this month about it?

Oh, I know, he did not hold his mouth right.

You just made my points for me by putting the most responsibility on him. Remember what he said in San Antonio? He got blasted for it, but he did try to get a dialogue going.

[welshTerrier2]

15. do you ever actually respond to what was written????

let's go over this a little more slowly to ensure we're communicating ...

all you did in your bullshit response was lash out ... you did not respond to what was written ...

let's try again ...

my FIRST POINT to which you failed to respond was that I offered a compromise position on the war ... DID YOU SEE THAT ????? it's easy to criticize when you do nothing but make up lies ... i asked whether you would stop saying that the left refuses to accept any compromise at all ... I OFFERED ONE !!!!!!!

and I did address the fact that Dean made comments on Iraq last month ... DIDN'T I???? i didn't say he "didn't hold his mouth right" ... DID I ?????? what i said is that he called for continued occupation for as long as another TWO YEARS !!!!!!! you then have the audacity to argue that "these progressives" had no comment on Dean's speech ... read what i wrote instead of making up your own fantasies ...

and finally we get to the "Dean is the whipping boy for the war" ... that is NOT what i wrote at all ... I've made many, many criticisms about almost every Democrat in the Senate ... and i've complimented many Democrats in the House ... my statement is NOT that Dean is responsible for the Party's position on the war; my point, which you COMPLETELY MISSED AS USUAL, was that Dean, as Chair, has the greatest responsibility to PROMOTE DIALOG on all contentious issues and I believe he has TOTALLY FAILED to do that ...

i realize it's a subtle point for someone who doesn't want to address what was actually written, but the problem we have is a serious lack of an intra-party process that MIGHT lead to reconciliation ... if we can't count on the Chair's leadership to push for that process of enhanced communication, whom can we count on more???

[radio4progressives]

16. We were all saying RIGHT ON DEAN!... (at our TV screens)

do you actually think the media is going to shine their cameras our direction when we praise the man they're working hard to marginalize?


c'mon!

[karynnj]

3. It's not just Dean they attack, they have been viscious in their comments

on Kerry. I have a hard time really figuring out what they want. As a Kerry supporter, at first I thought they were unhappy Dean voters. After a very short time, I started seeing the very obnoxious Dean stuff they have put out. I know they also hate the DLC.

My question is are they just tying to further create chaos in the Democratic party - to expand the green party or to something else. What I don't see is who do they like or at least approve of.

What's sad is this is a time when we need to be organized and content in our differences to take advantage of a weak point in the Republican party. To undercut Dean at this time is so counter productive.

[radio4progressives]

5. You don't have to "figure it out" - you can "Read It" for yourself

go here to see candidates AND which elected Democrats that PDA works with and supports like John Conyers, Lynn Woolsey and just about the entire Black Caucus if not all, and many others.

Also read up on actions and the inclusion of work which embodies progressive agenda.

Read this, then share with me exactly what you disagree with.

http://www.pdamerica.org/

[karynnj]

6. None of those people could ever be elected

outside of very liberal congressional districts. I get a handout at a local Democratic event - the agenda was sufficiently vague that they could include more than the candidates you list plus Barbara Lee.

What I don't see from their values is why they are so negative about Dean, kerry et al.

[radio4progressives]

8. Please provide an example of what you see as "Sufficiently Vague"..

and then, why you disagree with that agenda item..

on edit: if the agenda is vague, how exactly do you want to see that item expanded on, specifically.

[karynnj]

9. Sufficiently vague implies I do agree with it

as would must people

[radio4progressives]

11. Well! That sure was a "Sufficiently Vague" response! And I Agree!

that settles that question once and for all!

[madfloridian]

22. The attacks on Kerry come from bloggers as well....

our blogosphere as much as the right. It is not just the left progressives doing this...they want one thing (A new party). It is the moderate blogs doing it as well to Kerry and to Dean and sometimes to Edwards.

It is an unfortunate situation. We have a good party leader who is being manipulated by the left because they want their own party. The ex-nominee is being criticized not just by the left, but by the moderate to centrist bloggers.

Motives? I don't know them all. Some of the motives are who employs them. Some of the motives I can not figure. I have tried. You would think we would all be anxious to work together, but that is the very last thing many want. I can only ask why.

It has gotten so bad that some still jump all over me as one who bashed the nominee, and I never did. It does no good to defend myself.

I feel very hopeless about a lot of things in the party this week. I think a lot of us had pretty high hopes for a while.

[BikeWriter]

7. "We must all hang together or assuredly we will all hang seperately"

Ben Franklin

[blm]

10. Amen to that.

And those who refuse to support those Dems speaking up should at least be prepared to run for office themselves, imo.

[BikeWriter]

12. I hope we can all be pulling together by the elections.

[Andromeda]

36. Me too --- but I'm not holding my breath.

DU has always been a war zone during the primaries but when the nominee is chosen, things seem to settle down a little bit, but there are always a few malcontents around who want to keep things stirred up.

The mods deal with them quite effectively.

If certain individuals aren't happy with our Democratic nominee they are encouraged to go elsewhere to complain and drown in their beer.

Most of us will pull together, I hope, but there will still be some bickering going on. Democrats have never been the most disciplined bunch of people. We are more like a disfunctional family during the holidays.

[LWolf]

17. I've noticed them.

I haven't read them. I've had no intention of going after Dean in any way.

I'm sorry to see that you believe that my disillusionment with business as usual in the party, my staunch support of progressive issues and candidates, and my rejection of being marginalized, or patronized, or force-fed less progressive candidates is undermining the party. I would say that expressing the direction I want my party to go, and going that way myself, is part of the democratic process.

If my party no longer wants my participation, and that looks likely, if I'm to judge by how many progressives here on DU are told not to "let the door hit them on the way out," that's unfortunate. It is the party's right, however, to decide that my participation is not needed. If that is what the Democratic party decides, then I'm not going to hear any complaints about the absence of my support or my votes, right?

Right?

[LWolf]

18. It's not now, and never has been, about "Dean,"

as far as I'm concerned. It's always been about the issues for me, and the choices the party makes that affect those issues.

I realize that PDA leaders, their supporters here at DU, and Dennis Kucinich are the "problems" you are bringing up. I see the PDA as a needed player within the party. I see Dennis Kucinich as the most undervalued Democrat in the party. I support all of the above, and don't see them as problems. The problem I see is the concerted effort, first by the DLC and its shills, and now by at least one DFA supporter, to force us in line or to purge progressives from the party.

If there are calls to leave the party, it's because there are those that don't think the party "speaks for them." It's the party's responsibility to make choices about "who they speak for," and about who they will move forward with, and who will be casualties in those choices. I wouldn't blame those "left behind" by their own party. For the record, I am a Democrat, and have voted mostly Democratic for the last 27 years.

I was glad to see Dean become DNC chair. I hoped that he would bring some of the grassroots energy he generated in the primaries to moving the party in a more productive direction. For me, that would mean a progressive direction. And yes, opposition to the Iraq occupation is high on the priority list. What I'm understanding from you at this point is that I shouldn't have expected that; I should have shut up and gotten in line?

[madfloridian]

19. My post was also about the party, not just about Dean.

That is what people are failing to understand. That my point IS that people are making him the issue.

Why is a group so willing to make just one man the pivotal point in whether they stay or leave?

Never once in his campaign did he say he would be the one to change things....never. He said the power was in our hands.

I don't think you should expect any more from him than you do from yourself. And what may be a progressive direction to you may not be to someone else.

I am against this war, I hate it. But he was not for it either. However, he was never for invading, and then just leaving...he saw the dangers. He said that as early as 2003.

If people choose to leave that is one thing. Using Howard Dean as an excuse to do so is unbelievable and unforgiveable. Many who do not realize what is going on are being manipulated into thinking he is the ultimate bad guy. That was my point here.

You can stay or go or whatever you wish. That is strictly up to you. But don't blame the party chairman for it...that is just not fair.

[LWolf]

20. You are correct in this:

I'm not blaming Dean. The party is not one man, and the party has been on a pretty determined march to the right for awhile now. I never expected Dean to singlehandedly shift direction.

If I choose to go, it really won't have anything to do with Dean. It probably won't have anything to do with any elected Democrats, either.

It will be more to do with the members of the Democratic Party who demand support for bad policy, bad legislation, and, from my pov, poor reps than it will be any one particular Democrat. It will be the majority rule, and if they rule in favor of a path I can't, in good conscience, march down, so be it.

[JeffR]

21. A party is just that

An agglomeration of citizens with overlapping views and interests, a collective, a construct to achieve agreed-upon goals in the political realm.

All too often, we raise a Howard Dean, or a John Kerry, or (insert your choices here) into something well beyond what any one person can or should be. Then when that person demonstrates fallibility, it becomes 'his' or 'her' fault. This also reinforces the cycle of ad-hominem attacks the Right Wing so revels in. The Republican Party is a Swift Boat operation on a massive scale, enabled by the corporatist media.

As to Howard Dean, he's worked his ass off to strengthen the party at the grassroots level across the country, and has even visited those among us who are fortunate enough to live abroad.

We have to come to terms with the fact that the Democrats will never be meaningfully resurgent until each one of us gets fired up again and finds ways to take the country back. And finds ways to correct the bizarre cognitive dissonance that has overtaken people (many of them Democrats), that the values of liberals are not the values of America.

So it starts from both a micro and a macro level, and the strength of the party lies in each individual getting onside with the effort. The standard-bearers like Dr. Dean can guide, can lead, but without a righteous army marching with them to reclaim what the Founders envisioned and intended, they cannot prevail.

[radio4progressives]

24. Outstanding Post...

:applause:

[madfloridian]

23. A link to show I am not just pulling this out of my hat, or a**, whatever.

I am getting articles together that have attacked Dean, mostly by this group. I know supporters of others in the primaries have done the same. Democrats on the whole have been a target of them. Good Democrats, decent ones. They don't deserve to be all lumped into a heap. We have a lot of good Democrats who are working to change things. I am getting support for what I am saying though many would rather not post here....I don't blame them.

Our country is in very serious trouble. It is not time for 3rd party. There is a difference between supporting progressive candidates, and actually inflicting damage.

They fully intend to either take over the Democratic Party or damage it. That is truly a shame. Progressives are a valuable part of the Democrats, they don't have to go to extremes.

http://www.socialistworker.org/2005-1/538/538_08_DebatingthePDA.shtml

"I cannot predict with any certainty that PDA will manage to take over the Democratic Party for progressive popular positions, but I am convinced that PDA is going into this with its eyes wide open.

PDA’s approach to Democrats, even progressive Democrats, is not one of subservience, but of useful pressure. A fair number of elected representatives want to move left on various issues, but are reluctant to do so in the absence of public pressure. PDA intends to provide it--when they want it, and when they don’t. PDA’s support in primary elections will be for progressive candidates, whether incumbents or challengers.

A progressive challenger sometimes has more strength as a Democrat than as the candidate of another party, because she or he is able to draw on the support of the party, even while pulling the party away from its corrupting corporate influence. But Greens and Socialists and other party candidates may also gain PDA support. When their election advances the public good and advances both efforts to reform the Democrats and efforts to build another party, then we need to act, not stop and argue over our long-term visions."

If they were not using Howard Dean as a whipping boy, I might not have butted in. I respected a lot of these at first. Still have vast respect for some. However, if you want a 3rd party, you may just as easily form your own party without attempting to damage the existing viable one right now.

[radio4progressives]

25. Why are you doing this? Is there a purpose you hope to achieve?

just asking, because I'm really confused...

[madfloridian]

28. Well, join me in my utter confusion then.

We have a Republican party that is in real trouble. We have a lot of good Democrats. We have a chairman who recognized that dependence on corporate money is killing our party....and he is trying to change it.

Meanwhile back at the ranch, progressives are withholding money. At the beginning when he took over the chair, several million were given out from under him by the party as a welcome gesture.

And the progressives are withholding. Do a search on Mary Pitt, Dean, donations, dnc, many terms.

So if they are not going to contribute anyway, wouldn't it be better to just have the 3rd party? I think we are lucky to have a good chairman who does try very hard to interact. What does he get? Articles like Is Dean Drunk. Go figure.

And meanwhile Cindy is posting at Kos today calling a lot of Democrats Chickenhawks very openly. Can't win for losing.

Why am I doing this? Because many people understand what I am saying, they just don't want to post in the thread. The same thing is being done to other of our good Democrats. I post because I think this is not the time to damage what we are rebuilding.

On Edit: here is a quote from that Mary Pitt. Not sure which group she is connected with, but she sure despises Dean. This is from Scoop, BTW. No one has to donate at all...it is always a choice anyway. But there are a lot of things like this coming out now. Just as we are trying to rebuild.

"Yes, Dr. Dean, those who contributed to your campaign so liberally in 2004 are now keeping their hands on what little remains in their wallets. And we shall continue to do so until we are convinced that it will not be wasted like our contributions were then and in the same way our tax dollars have been mis-used ever since. When a real leader appears who is willing to stand up for us, for our aspirations, and our needs, the money will be available to launch a stem-winder of a campaign that will wash the crooks of both parties into the Potomac and put in their places true representatives of the people. True, you have been hired and are being paid by the Democratic "establishment" who are complaining about the amounts you are collecting for the purpose of electing their choices into office. I thought you might like to be prepared to give them the reasons the money is tricking in so slowly."

[Capn Sunshine]

31. I don't know Mary Pitt either- but she's very wrong

The money is NOT "trickling in so slowly " as she puts it.

I thought we put that right wing BS meme to rest already. Simply put, Dean's party fundraising is breaking records. What it isn't , and never will be, is at the same level as the republican corporate donor machine, with all the Abrahoff tentacles and shell corps funneling illegal money everywhere.

For the first time in a generation, we are sending money back to the states to fight locally. we have compensated field reps in every state for the first time ever. We have a strategy on how to fight the fight for the next ten years.

What we don't have is a lot of people paying attention to that,particularly MSM, and especially folks like Mary Pitt, who is eager to buy the right wing lie at the expense of Dean being portrayed as making considerable progress.

[madfloridian]

32. But he hasn't fixed everything yet, so what you say is moot.

He is supposed to fix it all right now, voting problems, everything. Now.

There is a lot going on with so-called progressives that I suspect is from the Nader wing....just can't prove it.

The fundraising is good. The 50 states have an organization going. The ones they should be fussing at are the congressional committees who are picking candidates.

But I presented my concerns. No one pays attention. But I presented them, and maybe something will sink in.

I don't like what the party has stood for this year, I hate the war. But I am not ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater and start over. It is not time for that.

[radio4progressives]

33. You know what, i've never heard of her, i wouldn't have even known

about this until this post.. I'm a progressive, I'm with a pda group, we are not boycotting our funding, the subject has even't come up!

i think these are isolated to certain regions, but the war is an issue for a lot of people, including myself - i'm thinking if these progressives are serious about holding back funding, that's their right.. after all . funding is self expression in politics unfortunately.

Understanding your concerns, I would suggest communicating these issues to these individuals directly... try and use the art of pursuasion if possible, but short of that, maybe some other form of communication that expresses some level of empathy with their concerns and an invitation to come back to work with you or some other group when if and when they should change their minds.

other than that, there really isn't much else that can be done about their determination to express their form of protest and disastifaction with the party. just my opinion, your mileage may vary... ;)

[madfloridian]

34. Yes, in many instances funds are withheld....I do what I do.

I post fairly, I point out what is going on. I don't attack, I use their own words.

I am quite fair in what I write. There is an effort to build a 3rd pary, which is fine. Nothing wrong with that. Dean was endorsed because they thought he was a decent guy they could put pressure on because he cared.

However, here is the catch. He has to answer to the whole party spectrum. The other groups do not think he owes anyone but them.

I know how a lot of us feel who are mostly moderate with progressive leanings....if too much pressure is applied or if it gets too ugly then we will just turn right rather than left. There is more foundation there. So it is risky to try to weaken a party at times like this.

You worry about yourself, I will worry about me. Ok?

[radio4progressives]

35. I'm here to tell you that I am a Active member of PDA and I have NEVER

heard about a Third Party.

What I am saying is this not an official pda position which is a HUGE difference between what some pda members are talking about or saying they like to do and actually representing themselvs or pda.

Please don't reference pda as a third party, because it is not.

with that i'll sign off, and bid you adeu once again with your little circular firing squad.

[Neil Lisst]

26. There ain't no good guys. There ain't no bad guys.

There's only you and me, and we just disagree.

Where is Dave Mason when you need him?


Disagreements in the party have their purpose. Assuming good motives works best, however.

[madfloridian]

27. I have asssumed good motives.

I am learning differently.

It is quite easy to form a third party without hurting another one. That's all I am saying.

[Neil Lisst]

29. What are you talking about? What third party do you have in mind?

Are you suggesting that by running off some of our Democratic members our party will not be hurt?

That is what it sounds like.

[madfloridian]

30. I think I have explained pretty carefully.

I really think I have. I think if you read what I posted, you will understand. Many of the people I refer to are not Democrats to begin with, and that is fine. DFA itself began by welcoming people of all groups, even moderate Republicans. I have no power to run anyone off.

I speak of motives other than wanting to build the party.