When will we begin walking the walk?

[MisterLiberal]

Sure, we talk a good line but when it comes time to walk the walk, we sputter. For instance, there are a bunch of forums here. This is the POLITICS forum, yet there are so many "Merry Christmas" posts that it is obvious that we aren't serious about the wall of separation. Until we can start practicing what we PREACH (pun intended since CHRISTmas is a religious holiday) then how can anyone take us seriously?

Is anyone here aware of how serious the other side is taking this issue? They're "going to war" over it in the media! And we can't even hold the line for a few days in December???? The first amendment doesn't shut down in December!!!

I'm expecting the "Scrooge" posts; go ahead. Nothing you can post can be any worse than hearing carpenter baby worship on a liberal political forum!

Religious message + Liberal POLITICIAL forum???? OXYMORON!!!

Think about what the holiday (which comes from HOLY DAY!) says: CHRISTmas. Are you really comfortable pressuring other religions to yours? THis is where the rubber meets the road!!!

IMPROMPTU POLL QUESTION:

A - I believe that Christmas and all religious holidays should be banned from the government.
B - I don't believe that religions should have federal holidays but I am weak and want Christmas to be an exception
C - I don't mind our federal government crossing the line by having religious holidays.

[bahrbearian]

1. How about in about 11 months?

[MisterLiberal]

3. Yeesh

That's exactly what I'm talking about.

If we're strong, we'll be able to stand up against the pressure for principles. Until we can make such a stand, we deserve to lose, because we're not showing anyone that we believe in what we are saying!

[firefox]

2. It will be hard to keep the War on Christmas theme alive

It was for the mushheads anyway, to keep them from thinking/reading on higher priority issues before us.

[MisterLiberal]

4. .

I'm not talking about THEM, I'm talking about US.

Where is OUR SPINE????

If we believe it, we should walk it...

[Godai Kyoko]

6. I don't think this is what Madison and the boys intended.

The text talks about an establishment of religion. That doesn't mean the store clerk can't wish you a Merry Christmas, it means that you are free from being taxed to support a state religion, (As is the case in Germany, even today) that bishops ain't ex officio members of the legislature (As was the case in England until Blair's reforms when he first came in) and that Citizenship isn't in a large part based on your religion (as is the case in Israel.)

So let the 80% of us who are christian have our holiday., Our blinking lights, our carols. The paid day off didn't kill you, did it?

Now if you are truly liberal, that is truly tolerant, you should chill and take it easy. Enjoy the parades, enjoy the football, go to the video store and have a wonderful life

[MisterLiberal]

9. What???

What is more of an "establishment of religion" than making CHRISTIAN HOLY DAYS FEDERAL HOLIDAYS?

You 80% can still have your Holy Day. Just don't force the Federal Government to recognize it.

[Godai Kyoko]

29. Don't forget Madison's other formulation

Madison and the boys were very careful of language. To Jimmy, "Establishment" ment bishops as legislators, church taxes, mandatory membership, denial of rights or extra taxes if you wanted to be not religious, or worse yet, a member of some other religion. A day off is none of these.


The the constitution is there to protect political minorities. That minorities have rights because the constitution protects them. If you want the constitution to be over anal and screw the majority, the majority can alter and abolish a government they consider obnoxious and oppressive.

choose your battles. There are more important things than the government gets a day off.

[MisterLiberal]

47. I'm tired of

"choosing my battles". Why can't I just say what I support and am opposed to?

The constitution is here to protect RELIGIOUS minorities, too! Don't forget that!

This isn't just "a day off". This is the federal recognition of only one religion's holy days.

Sure, it's quite convenient for you. It's YOUR RELIGION.

That's why there is a wall. I'm no less an American because I don't celebrate Christmas.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

50. What DO you celebrate then?

[MisterLiberal]

55. I don't.

I am an athiest.

I don't celebrate "holidays". They don't make me work on those days but I shouldn't be made to feel less than an American because I don't, NEITHER should I be made to feel less than a Democrat because I don't celebrate A RELIGIOUS HOLIDAY.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

59. But nobody would know all that about you if you weren't shouting it

from the rooftops here and now.

Do you really feel discriminated against on that basis?

[MisterLiberal]

62. Nope

But are you suggesting that I should "keep my views to myself" just because they're unpopular?
Check out the hostile posts I am receiving. THAT is why I am feeling discriminated against.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

66. Your opening post set the tone.

[Moochy]

68. Feel discriminated against

:rofl:

[Bluzmann57]

5. Damn man! This alleged "war on Christmas" is all propaganda

and it appears you have bought into it. Fuck it, who cares? Quite frankly, I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill. It was kind of nice getting together with family today, and to me, that's what holidays are about. And what about Labor Day? What about Independence Day? What about Memorial Day? Are they religious days as well because 99.99% of people call them holidays, as in "Holy Days"? Lighten up and enjoy.

[MisterLiberal]

7. No

I will not "lighten up". My principles mean something.

And no, just because it is called a holiday doesn't mean it's religious. But Easter, Thanksgiving and Christmas have to go.

[Moochy]

31. Yes lets adopt those as our party planks!

:eyes:

give it up you just got the internets at home didnt you?

[MisterLiberal]

40. Yeah, that's the ticket

Demean those with whom you disagree.
How about rebutting the points I am making?

For one: How can our government constitutionally recognize religious holidays?

two: How can our government constitutionally only recognize ONE religion's holidays?

[Moochy]

46. Aww poor widdo liberal got demeaned

I'm just a big demeanor i guess.. :popcorn:

[MisterLiberal]

48. I guess

that since you are so correct you should be able to rebut my points, but all I get are personal attacks...

I'll take that as an indication that you're not here to be serious.

[Moochy]

53. An indication that you are not here to be serious...

Is your charicatured attack on Christmas OP.

[MisterLiberal]

57. Personal attacks?

How about addressing my points instead of personally attacking me?

Surely you have enough ammunition for that if you are sooooo correct....

[Moochy]

63. Your so-called "points" need no addressing,

they stand on their own as flame-baiting idiot-speech, cooked up in a lab.

Don't feed the under-bridge-dwellers, suffer not the fool. etc.

Your views are hardly "liberal" but seem more a cardboard cut-out of a liberal shouting in ALL CAPS, KILL CHRISTMAS!!

So surely the federal government should not have ANY HOLIDAYS because of the wall between church and state. OH WOW you mean this nation was founded in the context of Christian Western European countries?

NO MORE CHRISTMAS NO MORE CHRISTMAS!! YAY..

tilting at windmills..

barking up the wrong tree..

yanking our chain..

noodling our pogostick.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

56. There has been a holiday around this time of year since way back

when.

It coincides roughly with the winter solstice.

Christmas Trees, Frosty the snowman, etc have no inherent connection to any religion.

[MisterLiberal]

58. Correct

But CHRISTmas specifically does and it does ONE specific religion.

The Federal Government has no authority to do this.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

64. A rose by any other name. Look, the long and the short of it is that

Nobody Cares! Most people in the US, including many Jews, celebrate Christmas. And love it.

[MisterLiberal]

69. There's the kicker: MOST

Hence, minorities who DON'T celebrate Christmas just "have to take it", right? And if you don't celebrate at work, then you are termed "unfriendly" which makes it where you don't get promoted, right?

After all, I'm not just a minority; I am a MINORITY minority.

The basis of my argument is that there are religious holidays - but ONLY CHRISTIAN HOLIDAYS - and it is a violation of the separation of Church and State.

[firefox]

8. Okay, my political answer

The War on Christmas is hogwash. I do not believe in Christianity and have never met anyone that has seen an angel much less God or Jesus. Don't talk to me about a War on Christmas. There are criminals in the government that need dealing with immediately and we need to be talking about our priorities as a country. Your War on Christmas is a fictitious media creation and is a diversion to what we should be talking about.

[MisterLiberal]

11. No it is real

When a RELIGIOUS HOLY DAY that is specifically for ONE RELIGION and ONE RELIGION ONLY is recognized by the Federal Government, that is BY DEFINITION a violation of the wall of separation between Church and State.

[firefox]

23. Must not be much of a movement

Do they have a website with lots of contributions from prominent people or was there a big protest in D.C.? No. There is no war on Christmas except the continual melting of Christian believers that is now only escalating.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

10. The Soviet Union tried to "walk the walk" did not

work.

Won't work, because the more you crack down on something, the more it will spring up somewhere. And it is not worth the time and money to crack down on religion.

Mixing the two can be done. We have done it for years in the US.

It only becomes a problem when certain people want to push it further than normal, like the present regressive right shitheads in power.

[MisterLiberal]

12. I can't believe I just read that...

Are you seriously saying that we should mix religion and government?

Does ANYONE here believe in a wall of separation between Church and State? What site am I on, anyway??? DecemberChristianUnderground.com???

Please, name one a federal holiday that observes any other religion than Christianity.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

21. No. I did not say that. Are you a demogogue?

I am saying, that here in reality, that is what happens.

I am not saying mix religion and government, nothing of the kind. I think you are being a bit over the top saying that recognizing holidays is doing that.

[Moochy]

27. YES GOVTS SHOULD BE LEGALLIZING HOLIDAYS

DOESNT EVERY LIBERAL KNOW THAT? MORE HOLIDAYS THE BETTER, HOW ABOUT CAPSLOCK DAY!

[MisterLiberal]

41. Fine

At least you responded to what I said.

Please tell me where in the Constitution that the Federal Govbenrment is allowed to celebrate RELIGIOUS HOLIDAYS.

Just one place please.

[SkiGuy]

54. go check out some Supreme Court rulings on this

[SkiGuy]

13. I always thought this was a Democrat forum

So are you saying you can't be a Christian and Democrat?

[MisterLiberal]

14. No

I am saying that you can't be both POLITICALLY.

You can be a Christian OUTSIDE of the political realm unless you don't believe in a wall of separation between your church and state and not other churches...

It's pretty convenient when it's YOUR religion alone that is recognized at the federal level, isn't it?

[SkiGuy]

15. I can see your point, but

you are getting real close to "prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

Besides you and Bill O'Reilly, who else is complaining?

[MisterLiberal]

17. The question SHOULD BE

Whe else SHOULD BE complaining???

Is everyone here REALLY COMFORTABLE with our federal government recognizing CHRISTIAN HOLY DAYS?

No one here sees a conflict here???

I'm not saying you can't celebrate carpenter baby day however you want. Read what I'm saying; I'm saying that the federal government has no business in recognizing it. And if we supposedly believe in a wall of separation between church and state (yes, even your 80% Christian churches!) then a political forum is NOT the place for religious wishes, is it?

[Moochy]

28. We demand an -IC be added.

MY RW TALKINGPOINTOMETER JUST WENT OFF!! WARNING WARNING!

[SkiGuy]

32. So I should say I'm a Democratic??

[Moochy]

33. Democratic = adjective

Democrat = noun.

Figure it out, "democrat"

[SkiGuy]

35. My grammar was off

I was stressing and should have said "thought this was a forum for democrats"
It's late!! :)

[MisterLiberal]

44. Wow

Has it come down to the grammar police?

I guess this "wall of separation" thing is kinda new around here?

Seriously, it's awfully nice when it's just your religion that is being recognized, isn't it?

[snowbear]

16. Sheezus Keeeyriyyst this is a LAME thread...

Lame, Lame, LAME.

[MisterLiberal]

18. Wow

How about contributing to the thread instead of just decrying it?

BTW, which is MORE lame: Allowing the federal government to recognize only ONE RELIGION'S holy days or pointing it out?

Answer that please...

[snowbear]

19. YOU are the only one complaining. YOU and only YOU.

You, Mr. Liberal are the reason I don't volunteer here as a moderator.

If it were me, this post would have been zapped into the ozone for being so lame.

[Moochy]

25. But he's soooo liberal

liberals are like Mr Liberal right? So all good liberals should be against christmas?
yeehaw.. wheres the popcorn. it truly is the night after xmas.

Remember Kids, Dont Do what Donny Dont Did, Liberals Hate Christmas.

Oh yeah and Bless you.

[MisterLiberal]

52. Then yes

I am glad you don't volunteer as a moderator. You have to be able to allow posts even from people with whom you disagree.

That "freedom of speech" thing is a bitch, isn't it?

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

20. DU is not a part of the government. Therefore posting about

Christmas is in no way violating the separation of church and state.

If we ever become a sovereign government at any level, I'd be open to discussing this.

The logic of this OP makes one wonder if they are for real, or someone trying to make us look bad should we agree with him. No luck there, though.

:wtf:

[snowbear]

22. Exactly what I was thinking.. His post is pure flame bait...

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

24. Yea, I thought of just agreeing with your post. Then thought I'd

add a few additional thoughts on the lameness theory, which I agree with.

[Moochy]

30. To add to the theory

Lame yes, flamey ? yes. Related in some mystical way to this thread? mmmmmmaybe...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2333368&mesg_id=2333479

[Eric J in MN]

26. You're right. DU isn't part of the federal govt or a local govt.

There is no church-state issue in posting about Christmas here.

[MisterLiberal]

61. Well, the US is a sovereign government

So how can you accept CHRISTmas as a federally recognized religious holiday? Not only that, but even to the exclusion of ALL OTHER RELIGIONS!

[Douglas Carpenter]

34. your attitude is destructive to the progressive cause

this is rigid fundamentalist demagoguery. This is certainly not liberals,

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

36. Agreed. Something's happening here, what it is ain't exactly

clear.

The handle is a bit odd, as so often the troller's handles are.

[MisterLiberal]

38. I see

So even though I have plainly said that no one has to stop worshiping a dead carpenter baby, you still think it's okay that the Federal Government of the UNited States of America celebrates only Christian religion Holy Days?

And because I even bring up the issue, I am "harmful to the cause"?

I guess I shouldn't even post about this, right? That I should just accept religious interference in the federal government otherwise I will be accused of posting "flame bait".

If "flame bait" means "make you think about what you're doing" then right. Any other cause, NO.

Does ANYONE here think that Christmas should NOT be a federally recognized holiday?

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

42. That you Karl?

C'mon, what are you really doing here?

[MisterLiberal]

70. Karl?

What are you talking about?

[Moochy]

45. Ahh but Sir Liberal

Your post is stupid, insulting, unrealistic charicature of a leftist religion hating liberal.

So yes you are not only "harmful to the cause" but in your black little heart, you have nothing but hatred for true liberal ideals.

Nobody here is upset about Christmas being a nationally recognized holiday, least not on this thread yet.

So as they say, Therein Lies the Rub. Your post is neither well thought-out, containing a secularist viewpoint, it is rather, like some bad sketch comedy from "Blue Collar TV" or perhaps a very bad night at the Colbert Report.

[MisterLiberal]

65. So what you are saying is...

That it is impossible for someone to NOT be a Christian and/or refuse to celebrate Christmas for the principle of it?

And yes, SOMEONE here is upset about Christmas on this thread: ME. Regardless of the number, I still matter.

And for a "sketch comedy" you are amazingly UNABLE to defend against any of my points.

Isn't that ODD? Surely you should be able to smack it down with some kind of facts, right?

[Douglas Carpenter]

49. I think you're just trying to make us liberals look bad

[GrumpyGreg]

37. "carpenter baby worship"? Wow !

[snowbear]

43. Issues. This dude seriously has them.

Moderator, Moderator, where forth art thou?

It's getting scary 'round here! :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:

[GrumpyGreg]

51. It certainly is. Scary stuff today,scary stuff.

[Moochy]

39. My Answer

D - Christ on a cracker, wait I'm Catholic so that should be Christ in the form of a cracker.

[mandyky]

60. Christmas as we celebrate it is not religious or even spiritual

It is over-commercialized, as are all other American holidays, many of which are not religious except the commemorate the dead (Veterans, Memorial, Dead Presidents, etc.).

I do not think doing away with holidays that some consider religious is wise or useful. Three religious holidays are also family days - Easter, Xmas, and Thanksgiving. People who do not celebrate with family or family-like friends on these holidays often feel they've missed the holidays. These holidays also have myths built for children around them, so being aroound children make them bearable.

Let's put it this way, if Roe vs Wade is a super duper Stari Decisis (sp), I'd say Christmas, Easter, and Thanksgiving are equally so in this country. How's that for walking the walk?

[MisterLiberal]

67. I have no idea

what a stari decisis is.

I DO KNOW that we have at least TWO CHristian-specific holidays in the US: Easter and Christmas.

How does anyone here constitutionally defend them?

[The Magistrate]

71. Locking

Flame-Bait.