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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 02:26 PM
Original message
Bob Casey leads Santorum in PA ... or does he?
Edited on Sun Dec-18-05 02:31 PM by welshTerrier2
whether it's true or not, the Democratic Party is portrayed by the media as not having a consistent message ... and, whether misled by the media or not and whether they agree with the message or not, the public sees the republican party as having a strong, consistent message and sees a Democratic Party that does not have one ...

there are a number of reasons for this ... first, as stated above, the media loves to highlight controversies within the Democratic Party ... second, controlling the WH makes it much easier to speak with one voice ... when the WH speaks, it makes front page news almost everytime ... but perhaps most importantly, Democrats really do NOT have a single, consistent message on many policy issues ... and politically, the Party lacks "message discipline" ... "big tent" has come to mean that we are a loose affiliation of individuals with a generally consistent political philosophy but we often are highly diverse on policy details ...

for example, some in the Democratic Party, especially within the ranks of the DLC, have argued that we have to "win" in Iraq because the Democratic Party cannot afford to be seen as weak on defense ... they've hosted articles on their website by prominent DLC'ers that showed nothing but disdain for the Party's left wing ... the political strategy sends the message that if Americans don't see Democrats as "tough", we will never regain our majority status ...

so, the question is then asked "Do Americans see Democrats as 'tough'??"

having a "big tent" that tolerates a diversity of views certainly seems vastly superior to rigidly demanding that each and every party member walks in lockstep ... HOWEVER, broad diversity on key issues is NOT necessarily politically effective ... starting with divergent views is fine as long as a process exists to work toward a more inclusive, unified position ...

Democrats span the spectrum on Iraq ... we have the "we have to succeed" Democrats; we have the "we can withdraw as successes occur" Democrats; we have the "we can't succeed until we withdraw" Democrats ... does this send a message of clarity to American voters???

and now the Democratic Party is muddling its message on abortion ... it's one thing to tolerate candidates who are personally opposed to abortion; it's something entirely different to endorse candidates who would overturn Roe v. Wade ... calling for a rolling back of women's reproductive freedoms imposes one's personal views on others ... i have NO issue with any candidate who personally thinks abortion is wrong as long as they recognize the Constitutional right to privacy and a woman's right to choose ... in other words, the outlawing of abortions should not be the government's decision to make ... those who believe it is should not be endorsed by leading Democrats ...

so where is the Democratic Party on sending a clear, forceful message to the American people on protecting this Constitutional freedom? you guessed it; muddled again ... several prominent Democrats have endorsed Bob Casey's Senate campaign in Pennsylvania ... some have argued that he's the only one who can defeat the hideous Santorum ... they argue that supporting Casey makes political sense ... but does it?

protecting the Party's national message and conveying a sense of message clarity are critically important ... muddled messages portray the Party as weak ... it says to Americans: "we have lots of ideas although many of us don't agree with them." ... the problem goes beyond merely alienating our base ... many MAY not vote for Democrats if certain core ideals are violated ... i will not ever again be voting for anyone who supports continued occupation in Iraq ... and i would never vote for anyone who opposes a woman's right to choose ... but the problem goes beyond some relatively small percentage of voters who will vote for a third Party candidate ... this small percentage is not unimportant btw; it could potentially tip the election ... but the greater problem is the sending of a fuzzy message to the American people ... something close to half of Americans don't vote at all ... many of them believe politicians will say or do anything to get elected ... they don't respect political parties that have no consistent message ...

in the end, muddled messages convey weakness ... at a time when some are emphasizing the importance of conveying strength, muddled messages seem highly counter-productive ...

oh, and what does all this have to do with the subject line of the thread?


source: http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/13431238.htm

It would seem obvious: Democratic Senate candidate Robert P. Casey Jr., who opposes abortion, believes Roe v. Wade should be overturned.

"You can't say you have the position I have and not believe that," Casey said in a recent interview about the 1973 U.S. Supreme Court ruling that made legal abortions available nationwide.

But some antiabortion Democrats - including Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada and Ron Klink, the party's nominee in the 2000 Pennsylvania Senate race - have parsed their position when confronted with the question: Do you believe Roe v. Wade should be overturned?

Yes, they say, they oppose abortion; but no, the ruling should stand as settled law.

Casey's position, as consistent and straightforward as it is, highlights the complexities of running as an antiabortion candidate in a party dominated by abortion-rights advocates. As the nuances of his beliefs become better known, he risks alienating an influential slice of the Democratic base that raises money and turns out voters.

"It speaks to a lack of fundamental understanding of what Roe represents," Kate Michelman, a former president of NARAL Pro-Choice America, said of Casey's position on Roe. "It is not just the right to choose an abortion; it goes to the heart of reproductive choice."

Casey, who made the comments at last weekend's Pennsylvania Society gathering in New York, said he is consistent.

"You can't have it both ways and say, 'I am pro-choice but,' or 'I am pro-life but,' " said Casey, the state treasurer. <skip>

But a Quinnipiac University survey released last week suggests Casey could lose support as his abortion stance draws more attention. It found almost a third of respondents who identified themselves as pro-Casey and pro-abortion-rights said they would not vote for him after being told he opposes abortion. Sixty-six percent would stay with him, the poll found.

The drop-off might not be so steep in the end, but it suggests that Casey's 12-point lead over Santorum might be much smaller, said Clay Richards, a Quinnipiac pollster. The poll of 1,447 state voters has a margin of error of plus or minus 2.6 percentage points.
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DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
1. they'll vote for Casey
because Santorum is a wing nut. Pro-choice voters will not vote for Santorum.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. there are other choices
i certainly agree with you that pro-choice voters will never vote for Santorum ... but that's not what the poll indicated ... it indicated that 1/3 of those currently supporting Casey would not vote for him if they knew his position on abortion ...

i suspect some of that 1/3 will, in the end, hold their noses and vote for Casey ... but it is nevertheless an ominous indication of the weakness of Casey's current lead over Santorum ... some of those people will likely vote for a third party candidate or they might not vote at all ...

whether you agree with their voting strategy or not does not change the fact that some of Casey's current supporters may not end up voting for him ...
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HockeyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
2. Republican or Republican LITE?
No thanks. As far as the abortion issue is concerned, if abortion goes against your religious doctrine, there is a very simple solution. DON'T HAVE AN ABORTION. Leave the law alone for those who don't share YOUR religious beliefs.
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skipos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. More like "extreme neocon or conservative democrat?"
Even Lieberman would be 1000 times better than Santorum.
I hope single issue voters don't aid Santorum's re-election.
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tom swift Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
4. Casey vs Santorum
There's a world of difference between a position where you would like to see Roe overturned and doing something about it. If it were up to the Congress,it would have already have been legislated that way. Keep in mind that 88% of counties in the US do not have an abortion provider and 47 states have some restrictions. If those same people were asked whether instead of Casey they would vote for Santorum based solely on this issue, I wonder what they'd say.
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HockeyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. Militant Vatican
The new Pope is threatening Catholic politicians on this issue. I say that as a lapsed Catholic who is pro choice. Both Casey and Santorum are both Catholics. Who has the backbone to stand against Rome if they are threatened with denial of Communion or excommunication? We all know where Santorum stands. No question. Casey is an unknown. Could he stand the pressure from Rome?

I don't live in Pennsylvania so the choice is not up to me. I live in, according to the Freepers, the abortion state of the country. It was this way before Roe and would probably be so if it is overturned.

As one New York CATHOLIC Republican State Legislator stated, who sponsored the bill to make the Morning After Pill OTC, "I was elected as the representative of ALL the people, not as a Catholic Bishop". We meed more legislators like him. No matter their Party.

ASK Casey about whether he would buck Rome on this issue. Santorum? Forget him. He is in another world totally. Cuddling with DEAD Fetuses? UGH!!!!!
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tom swift Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Vatican
While the Vatican likes to believe that their edicts are followed,well,religiously, most American Catholics (North and South) have been a bit selective about which rules they will and won't adhere to. Since the US is estimated to be 80% to 90% Christian, I don't think women having abortions in the US are all atheists. Similarly, with a divorce rate close to 50%, that they are all non-Catholic. Ultimately, a Catholic would have to be convinced that the Pope is speaking ex-cathedra or this is another guideline. The bishop's asserting this authority have to make the distinction between actively engaging in immorality or not.

If you are truly concerned about a Papal dicta about abortion, worry about the fact that if Alito is confirmed the Supreme Court will have 5 Catholics out of 9 justices.
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HockeyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I most certainly DO
Especially with all the talk about them being Opus Dei.
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Exactly, Rome has NO business dictating what happens in our country.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
5. Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory
Always nice to see our "progressives" trying to drive divisions in the party.

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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. bury your head in the sand if you must
thanks for failing to address the very real issues of message discipline raised in the OP ...

do you think that the 1/3 of those who responded to the poll are "trying to drive divisions" or are they just answering a poll question based on their preferences??

what exactly do YOU advocate on the abortion issue? do you believe the Party should welcome candidates who would deny women their Constitutional protections? is it your belief this is a good position for the Party to take?

instead of constantly whining, how about discussing the issue ?????
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. So do you want to pitch John Murtha out of the boat?
After all, he shares Casey's pro-life philosophy....

"the very real issues of message discipline"
It's only an issue to the leftists in the Junior Joe McCarthy club, who keep trying to impose some sort of purity test, for fuck knows what reason.


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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. you're confusing "purity" with "oppression"
i strongly support Murtha's view on the war ... i would never vote for him if he opposes a woman's Constitutional freedoms ... that's because i'm not a "single issue" voter ...

you think i'm McCarthy-like because i insist on protecting Constitutionally guaranteed freedoms????

i think you're McCarthy-like for putting the politics ahead of liberty ...

someone has a "purity test" all right and me thinks it's you !!

btw, my post spoke about how to make the Party stronger ... all you've done in this thread is complain ...
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. No, I'm not confusing anything....
"someone has a "purity test" all right and me thinks it's you !!"
And that's why I started this thread...oops!!

"btw, my post spoke about how to make the Party stronger ."
Ratfucking the campaign of the Democratic candidate who has a double digit lead over an incumbent Republican makes A party stronger...it's just not the Democratic Party...
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guidod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. What's happening here MrBenchley?
This is the second time in one week that I agree with you. We can't keep attacking our candidates. I'm beginning to think that there are some clowns on the right infiltrating DU. How can we stay focused if our own are telling us we're wrong.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. it's not the right...
welcome to "Green Underground"
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. yes, excellent point
only Greens believe the Democratic Party should strongly stand for a woman's right to choose ...

perhaps you think of protecting Constitutional freedoms as a "litmus test" ... this Democrat does not !!
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #12
21. Notice
how often Democratic candidates singled out for abuse by our "progressive purists" are:
--up for re-election in 2006; and
--beating their Republican opponents like rented mules.

Also notice how whenever something goes wrong for the GOP (domestic spying, or the Abramoff scandal, to name just two recent events) threads go up almost immediately claiming that the Democrats are also "involved" or "just as bad" or "weak" or "blowing our chances", etc.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. accusations from those supporting an anti-choice candidate
notice how when a post about protecting a woman's right to choose is made that DLC apologists like you make allegations questioning whether the poster is a suitable Democrat ...

i hope people here understand that, even in response to a thread that focussed on a strong and consistent Party message, DLC apologists like you seek to attack, attack and attack again ...

and still, you FAIL to stand up proudly and say loudly and clearly that you are willing to deprive women of their Constitutional freedoms as long as Democrats can win ...

let's here it, MrBenchley ... proclaim your belief that it's just fine with you to support candidates who would overturn Roe if they could ... let's hear it, buddy ... but no, you'll just keep tap dancing around and blaming the "progressive purists" ... at least admit the oppression you are condoning ...
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Accurate observations of what goes on with our "Junior Joe McCarthy Club"
"DLC apologists like you seek to attack, attack and attack again ... "
Sez the guy who started a thread to attack a Democrat with a 22 point lead in the polls over Dog Sex Ricky....
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. MrBenchley supports an anti-choice candidate
Edited on Mon Dec-19-05 09:36 AM by welshTerrier2
and just won't admit it ...

here's your big chance Mr. B ... talk to the women of DU ... and the men of DU as well ...

tell them how and why you're totally comfortable with a candidate who would deprive women of their civil liberties ... talk about how you would force all American women to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term ...

you want to support an anti-abortion candidate? then OWN IT ... and own up to it ... let's hear it, MR. B ...

let's say it together a few times just so you can really hear what you're advocating ... ready??

MrBenchley supports an anti-choice candidate that would force a woman to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term ...
MrBenchley supports an anti-choice candidate that would force a woman to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term ...
MrBenchley supports an anti-choice candidate that would force a woman to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term ...

OK ... ready to solo??? go ahead ... give it a try ...
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. You mean like John Murtha....
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
16. Casey is personally pro-life but is not a big advocate to change laws.
That makes a big difference.

Kucinich was prolife for decades, but would you prefer he get thrown to the curb?

Same with David Bonior, one of the great liberal forces in the Congress when he was there. He was prolife, but never pushed it as an issue.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
19. If you live in PA
Edited on Sun Dec-18-05 08:40 PM by dsc
and don't know this man's stand on abortion (he has been an office holder for 8 years and ran for governor as a prolifer) and his father was the most famous pro life democrat in the nation,you are close to unfit to vote. He has run statewide 3 times with this position. Just how ignorant of politics are these people. I find it beyond hard to believe that people who care enough about this issue to vote only on that basis, have no idea what the position of one of the most famous pro lifers in the nation is on abortion.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. That was a brilliant summation of what I was going to say.
Everyone in PA knows where Casey stands on abortion. If for no other reason they may be stupid enough to think it is Casey Sr.(even though he's dead) and everyone knew where he stood.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. I've felt that same way many times here.
Some people claim they are anti-corruption yet aren't familiar with those lawmakers who have worked against it the most for the last 20-30 years.

Same with those who use the attack "corporate whores' when describing those Dems whose records prove otherwise.

Or throw out the word "warmonger" when the record just doesn't support that language.

Sometimes, it's as if some here only started paying attention in 2002, and can't put much in context, so they rely on inaccurate accusations they pick up from questionable sources, left and right.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. It is far more excusable not to know the record of someone
for whom you haven't been voting for several election cycles than in this case. I can see not knowing Kerry's record inside and out if one isn't from MA. I can even see not knowing every nuance after his Presidential run, which after all was only a couple of years. This example is of people who supposedly are single issue voters living in Casey's state, who have no clue what the longest serving Democrat in their state believes about their single issue. That is a level of ignorance that is simply breath taking.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #19
27. Absolutely right: the premise of the poll question is plain dumb
Everyone knows Bob Casey here in PA.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
28. The problem I see is that this black and white vision
Edited on Mon Dec-19-05 10:41 AM by karynnj
on so many issues is impossible. By all accounts, Casey sounds like he is a very strong Democrat on a vast range of economic issues. He clearly cannot fit as a Republican. There are Republicans who deviate from their party on some litmus test issues, but who are clearly Republican. The Republicans have challanged these people in primaries - sometimes eliminating incumbents.

If we do the same thing, you end up with 2 groups with few ties between them. A good person who chooses his position independently on each issue might fit a party on every issue, but there will be some outstanding statesmen who do not. I think Congress worked much better in the 60s or 70s when there were liberal Democrats and liberal Republicans, conservative Democrats and Conservative Republicans because there was actually genuine discussion on issues and much less lock step voting.

I think that the Democratic party made a huge mistake when Casey's dad was not given a speech at the Democratic convention (1992??) because he was pro-life. If he was willing to speak about something else - labor, poverty, income gap etc it would have been good to do this. There are many people who really are Democrats except for abortion. If Casey is as good as is said on issues other than abortion, he will make a fine Senator.

Ultimately, the Republicans are making themselves a narrower party in terms of their views. Rather than muddled, we need to re-frame the issue - we are not muddled, but we do not believe that all Democrats will have the same POV on issues. The economic issues - an FDR security net, a concern over the increasing income gap etc are the issues that make people Democrats. The majority of people probably are in the middle - do we present ourselves as a broad diverse party (with some people very near the) or as the opposing extreme party hoping more move to our side than theirs. Extreme parties lend them selves to stereotyping. (How else were the Republicans able to scare WV that a Catolic, who reportedly goes to church on Sundays even when not campaigning, would take their Bibles away.)

On a national level, I doubt a pro-choice person would win the Presidential nomination. In some states though, a pro-choice person could and can win the Senate or Gubinatorial nomination - because a majority or near majority of people in that state support him/her. Obviously, there's no call at all for you to support this candidate.
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