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Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR). "Fair Flat Tax Act of 2005"

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nickshepDEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 04:08 PM
Original message
Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR). "Fair Flat Tax Act of 2005"
Edited on Mon Dec-12-05 04:31 PM by nickshepDEM
A top Republican priority in this session of Congress has been on “tax reform”. Yet, we know instinctively that when a Republican preaches tax reform that the resulting changes will help those at the top and hurt the lower and middle classes.

Two of the proposals you most often hear about are the FAIR tax and the “Flat” tax. The FAIR tax is a national sales tax of 23%, which is shockingly regressive and would really hurt the growth of our economy by discouraging spending on goods and service. The “flat” tax has been made popular by the ultra-wealthy Republican Steve Forbes and advocates a single tax rate on income. While the flat tax on the surface may sound like a good idea, it is yet another regressive scheme to help the wealthy avoid paying taxes. Under the flat tax, capital gains, interest, dividends and income from flow-through businesses are untaxed while salaries, wages and other earned income are taxed. Corporate income taxes are entirely eliminated.

Democrats are often attacked for having “no ideas” (although the Republicans have the power to stop any Democratic legislation from coming to the floor for a vote). Thankfully, Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon has come up with a plan to reform a tax system is a way that truly reflects Democratic values. It succeeds in addressing four core tax ideas that Democrats can agree on:

1) a simpler, more efficient tax system
2) a more progressive tax system
3) a tax system that doesn’t reward wealth over work
4) a cut in taxes for the middle and lower class

Senator Wyden’s plan eliminates the Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT) while downsizing the Form 1040/Schedule A to one page (30 total lines). The various itemized deductions of the current Schedule A are pared down to deductions for mortgage interest and charitable contributions, while providing a 10% tax credit for state taxes paid (including real estate taxes, sales taxes, state income taxes, and state personal property taxes). The plan lowers the number of marginal tax brackets down to three, with rates of 15%, 25%, and 35%. The standard deduction is increased while the Earned Income Credit (EIC) for low-wage workers is maintained. A copy of a proposed 1040 form can be viewed here:

New Form 1040

http://wyden.senate.gov/PDF%27s/Wyden%20Fair%20Flat%20Tax%20Act%20-%20Sample%201040.pdf

Perhaps one of the most appealing aspects of Senator Wyden’s plan is that all income will be treated equally. Thus, income from interest, dividends, short-term and long-term capital gains, and flow-through income will be treated exactly the same as income from salaries, wages and commissions. We as Democrats often talk about how Republicans value “wealth over work”, and Senator Wyden’s tax reform plan would change that. In addition, families with income up to $150,000 would receive a tax cut under this plan (so much for the meme about Democrats raising taxes on the middle class).

The corporate tax rate is set at a flat tax of 35%, with many current loopholes being closed to make sure corporations pay their fair share. Taking all the changes into account, the new tax reform is projected to reduce the federal deficit by $100 billion over the next 5 years.

I have been waiting for Democrats to roll out a sensible tax reform plan, and I am very pleased at Senator Wyden’s plan. If I had to write an ideal tax reform legislation, it would be almost exactly the same as this. Does this have any chance of getting through the Republican-controlled Finance Committee? Likely not. But this seems like a great piece of legislation that Democrats can run on in future campaigns to counter the Republicans’ calls for tax reform. This legislation beats them at their own game. You can read the text of the legislation here:

Fair Flat Tax Act of 2005

http://wyden.senate.gov/PDF%27s/Wyden%20Fair%20Flat%20Tax%20Act%20-%20Legislation.pdf

I posted this a couple weeks ago, but the thread never really caught on. I would have bumped the thread but its gone. Hat tip to Scoonie at DKos.
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400Years Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. your link seems to not work
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nickshepDEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. Fixed
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
2. Sounds better than anyting coming from the right.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Paying with chickens and bushels sounds better than the right.
:evilgrin:
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
3. Your links are busted
Edited on Mon Dec-12-05 04:25 PM by BlueEyedSon
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nickshepDEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Fixed
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
4. "...all income will be treated equally..."
Cool, a tax hike on the aristocracy.
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
6. Your links don't work.
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nickshepDEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Fixed
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
9. From the little details you listed, I like the plan.
It simplifies the tax system and increasing the standard deduction would enable many more people to file a very easy form.

The one thing I want to see is what he would do with the thousands of special deductions designed specifically for one company or one industry. The tax code is loaded with them! I think they ALL need to just go away!!!!!

If that step was taken, I'd bet you'd see a lot more than $100 million reduction in the debt!
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nickshepDEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Its definitely a step in the right direction. Id like to see this plan
incorporated in every democratic candidates 2006 campaign platform. W/ the theme of "Work Over Wealth".
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mainegreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
12. They need to summarize the changes
because I don't know what the hell its talking about when they're like "section 12.A amended to add a 'instead of' instead of 'in addition too'."

I do like the federal tax rebate for those of us being taxed to death by our home states. :thumbsup:
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Bush_Eats_Beef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
13. National Sales Tax would NOT...I repeat, NOT...be 23%
From Bruce Bartlett:

"You know, I'm not exactly sure how big the national sales tax is going to have to be, but it's the kind of interesting idea that we ought to explore seriously," Bush said, according to a Reuters report.

August 09, 2004, 8:47 a.m.

A National Sales Tax No Vote: The rates would be vastly higher than what you might suspect.

House Speaker Dennis Hastert created a flurry of excitement in Republican circles the other day when it was reported that he is proposing the abolition of the Internal Revenue Service in his new book. This would be accomplished by eliminating all existing federal taxes and replacing them with a national retail sales tax. There is no indication of what tax rate Speaker Hastert thinks would be necessary to replace all federal revenue. A current proposal by Rep. John Linder (R., Ga.) says that a 23 percent rate would be adequate. But such a low rate can only be sustained by making completely absurd assumptions about what would be taxed. Every serious economist who has ever looked at this question has concluded that a vastly higher rate would in fact be needed.

An unstated assumption is that the 23 percent rate proposed by Linder is comparable to existing state and local sales taxes, where the tax comes on top of the purchase price. Thus, a 5 percent sales tax on a $1 purchase comes to $1.05. But that’s not the way the Linder plan works. He deceptively calculates the rate as if the tax is part of the purchase price. He calls this the tax-inclusive rate. Calculating the rate the normal way people are accustomed to with state and local sales taxes would require a 30 percent tax rate, not 23 percent. When Congress’s Joint Committee on Taxation scored the Linder proposal four years ago it estimated that it would actually require a tax-inclusive rate of 36 percent, not 23 percent, to equal current federal revenues. Calculating the rate in a normal, tax-exclusive manner would mean a 57 percent rate.

Economist Bill Gale of the Brookings Institution notes that supporters of the sales tax assume that there will be no tax evasion under their proposal and that the size of government will not grow, even though they would send a large annual check to every American in order to offset the regressivity of the tax. Making realistic assumptions, Gale estimates that the tax-inclusive rate, comparable to Linder’s proposed 23 percent rate, would actually have to be about 50 percent. A rate comparable to existing sales taxes would be close to 100 percent. And let us not forget that state and local sales taxes would come on top of the federal sales tax, pushing the total rate even higher. Obviously, the federal government is not going to impose tax rates this high, nor would anyone pay them if it did. There would be a massive tax revolt.

From Nancy Pelosi:

http://democraticleader.house.gov/press/releases.cfm?pressReleaseID=701

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
September 23, 2004

Pelosi: ‘National Sales Tax Would be Burden for Middle Class Americans, But Boon for the Wealthy’

Washington, D.C. -- House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi held a news conference in the Capitol this afternoon with Congressmen Charles Rangel of New York, and John Spratt and James Clyburn, both of South Carolina, to denounce a Republican plan for a national sales tax. Below are Pelosi’s remarks and a fact sheet about the proposal:

“Today, we are here to highlight one of the many clear contrasts between Democrats and Republicans: Republicans want to undermine our American values of prosperity and fairness with a new national sales tax of at least 30 percent and as high as 50 percent or more on all goods, including homes and cars.

“A national sales tax would be a burden for middle class Americans, but a boon for the wealthy. Families with children would lose their current tax deductions, and seniors would essentially be taxed twice.

“This proposal is ludicrous and should be dismissed outright. Yet Speaker Hastert wrote about the national sales tax and the flat tax in his new book, saying ‘both of these ideas are worthy of consideration.’ And Majority Leader Tom DeLay is co-sponsoring the bill, and has said: ‘It is high time the debate about the flat tax and a national consumption tax moved out of Washington think tanks and into American living rooms. That's why I have signedon to Congressman John Linder's proposal to scrap the current tax code altogether and replace it with a national sales tax.’

“The Republican plan would make it harder for middleclass families to make ends meet. A national sales tax would undermine the American value of prosperity. For example, cars that cost $20,000 would cost an additional $6,000 under this proposal. Just wait until the car dealers hear about this proposal. Prescription drugs that cost $100 would now cost $130. New homes, insurance premiums, brokerage fees, and gasoline would all be heavily taxed to replace revenue brought in by the current tax system.

“It would wipe out our system of progressive taxation. A national sales tax would undermine the American value of fairness.

“The American people should be aware that the Republicans’ primary tax agenda is a new national sales tax.”

The Republican Plan to Raise Taxes on the Middle Class

All over the country, middle class Americans are being squeezed byRepublican policies that have lost 1.7 million private sector jobs; allowed the price of health care, education, and gas to skyrocket; and created record deficits. Now Republicans are proposing a new national sales tax that would increase taxes for the typical middle class by about 50 percent. Democrats know that approach is wrong. Instead of raising taxes on the middle class, Democrats have pledged to promote prosperity and fairness by enacting middle class tax relief, creating new jobs, and eliminating tax loopholes so all Americans pay their fair share.

GOP SALES TAX HIKES A FAMILY’S TAX BURDEN BY 50 PERCENT

The new GOP national sales tax would replace all personal and corporate income taxes, Social Security, Medicare, and payroll taxes, and gift and estate taxes with a new national sales tax on goods like groceries, clothing, new home sales and apartment rents, and health care services. This new GOP tax would be applied on top of existing state sales taxes. This proposal would increase taxes by about $3,200 a year for 80 percent of taxpayers, and potentially more for some families.

MIDDLE CLASS FAMILIES SQUEEZED AGAIN

Families with children. Families with children are hit the hardest, as this proposal would eliminate all the current law tax benefits for these families, including the child tax credit. A middle class family with four children with a combined income of $65,000 would face an increase of more than $5,000 in their tax liability.

New homeowners. The Republican tax hike proposal would eliminate the tax deduction that families get on their home mortgages and apply this new sales percent tax to the cost of a home. If a family buys a new house listed for $150,000, the new tax brings the actual purchase price to $195,000.

Jump in property taxes. The Republican sales tax hike would require states to send an additional $300 billion to the federal government in sales taxes – a tax increase that states would immediately pass on to residents. Arkansas, Delaware, Kentucky, Hawaii, and New Jersey could all see property tax increases higher than 400 percent. The lowest state property tax hike possible – in New Hampshire – would still be more than 70 percent.

Gas and electricity. The average family would pay an additional 60 cents a gallon for gasoline – a new tax that will hit families in rural areas particularly hard. Families with large home heating or cooling bills also will be harmed.

SENIORS FACE NEW TAXES

Beneficiaries pay twice for Social Security and pension benefits. Most Social Security benefits and a portion of pension payments are exempt from income tax. But this proposal requires seniors to pay the new sales tax – meaning that seniors are now being taxed twice for their Social Security, once when they pay the payroll taxes and again when they pay the sales taxes.

Threaten Solvency of the Medicare Trust Fund. Medicare would be required to pay the new sales tax as well, forcing the program into insolvency in five years. If this proposal were enacted, Medicare would run out of funds in 2009.

Undermines pension coverage. The new GOP sales tax hike would reduce the incentives employers currently get for offering their employees a pension plan. The American Academy of Actuaries has concluded that “pension plans would quickly diminish in number and size and gradually disappear” if a consumption tax, such as the national sales tax were enacted as a substitute to the current income tax.

From The National Retail Federation:

http://www.nrf.com/content/default.asp?folder=press/release2005&file=NRST-comments.htm&bhfv=2&bhqs=1

Retailers File Comments Urging Rejection of Consumption Tax

WASHINGTON, D.C., June 13, 2005 - The National Retail Federation today announced that it has filed comments with the President's Advisory Panel on Federal Tax Reform urging the panel to reject economically risky proposals to replace the nation's income tax system with a consumption tax or to add a new consumption tax on top of existing taxes.

"The United States should not experiment with a brand new tax system that will put our economic future at risk," NRF said. "It is better to engage in substantial reforms of the income tax that are designed to eliminate some of the major complications in the current Internal Revenue Code and stimulate economic growth without causing major economic dislocation."

NRF's remarks came in response to proposals for tax reform that were presented to the Advisory Panel during a series of hearings this spring. The panel asked for public comments on the proposals last month.

NRF on Friday submitted a detailed statement outlining the dangers of various consumption tax proposals. The statement addressed the National Retail Sales Tax proposed by Representative John Linder, R-Va., plans for a Value Added Tax similar to those used in Europe, and other consumption tax proposals.

The NRF statement cited a study commissioned by NRF in 2000 that found that a national sales tax would bring a three-year decline in the economy, a four-year decline in employment and an eight-year decline in consumer spending. The study showed that similar results could be expected if other types of consumption taxes were enacted to replace the current system.

NRF argued that consumption taxes are inherently regressive because low-income families spend virtually their entire incomes while wealthier families have larger percentages of unspent income that would go untaxed.

NRF particularly urged the Advisory Panel to reject proposals to maintain the current tax system while adding a VAT or other new tax that would be used to pay for programs such as Social Security or health care. Doing so would amount to a tax increase rather than tax reform and would provide lawmakers with "a money machine" to finance increases in government spending, NRF said.

From Roth & Co:

http://www.rothcpa.com/archives/cat_tax_reform.php

June 02, 2005
I DON'T THINK HE LIKES THE 'FAIR' TAX

The "Fair Tax," a proposal for a national retail sales tax, has gotten some attention in the tax reform debate. Joseph Thorndike, a columnist for Tax Analysts, isn't quite sold on it:

First, though, we have to sort through an embarrassment of riches: How can we identify the worst quality of a tax that has so many? As numerous critics have pointed out, the Fair Tax would raise too little revenue and prompt too much evasion. Its popularity depends on unreasonable assumptions and misleading descriptions. It would never work as advertised -- a fact that many of its supporters either choose to ignore or secretly celebrate.

But other than that, maybe he likes it.

WHAT IS THE REAL RATE?

Mr. Thorndike points out that the 23% rate touted by Fair Tax supporters is misleading, because it is a "tax inclusive" rate. The 6% tax rate we Polk Countians are accustomed to is "tax exclusive" - it isn't included in the sales tax rate.

Example:

Wally buys a new computer for $1,000, and he pays $60 in sales tax. His "tax exclusive" rate is 6%. His "tax inclusive rate" is 5.66% (60/1060 = 5.66%).

If you compute the "Fair Tax" the way we are used to talking about sales tax rates - tax exclusive - it will apply at a 30% rate. That's a real difference.

Perhaps we are biased, being income tax consultants, but the Fair Tax seems to have some huge practical problems. Two come immediately to mind.

WHEN RATES GET TOO HIGH, PEOPLE CHEAT

Sales taxes are only likely to work if rates are low enough to not interfere with commerce. When combined with state and local taxes, the Fair Tax would burden every trip to Git 'n Go with a 36% or higher surcharge. This is high enough to push many transactions into the E-bay economy.

HIGH SALES TAX RATES THREATEN BUSINESSES THAT COLLECT SALES TAXES

Taxpayers going through their first sales tax audit are astounded at how big the assessments can be. They also know that they aren't as simple as many folks believe. While income taxes are only a problem to the extent your business is profitable, sales taxes apply even when you are losing money, and they apply based on gross receipts - a much larger base than taxable income.

Because sales taxes are computed on a big base, a small error in determining what transactions are subject to tax can lead to a stiff assessment over three years, even at a "low" 6% rate. At a 36% rate, even little errors would be ruinous.

FAIR TAX PROSPECTS?

Mr. Thorndike doesn't think the Fair Tax will survive the tax reform process:

And the winner of this year's prize for Worst Idea in a Serious Public Policy Debate: the Fair Tax. In all likelihood, this plan for a national retail sales tax has already exhausted its 15 minutes of fame. Sometime later this summer, President Bush's commission on federal tax reform will probably put it out of its misery.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #13
35. Thank you for that wealth of information
If the 23% figure is derived from expressing the tax as a percentage of the total cost (which is how I read it), then that puts the tax closer to around 33%...
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orwell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
14. At First Glance...
...This is the best of the "Flat Tax" proposals. It would eliminate most of the special interest deductions, retain progressivity, and greatly simplify the tax code streamlining and drastically lowering compliance costs.
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iconoclastNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
15. How does a FLAT tax remain PROGRESSIVE?
Every flat tax I've every seen cuts the tax rate at the top and to make up that loss in revenue you have to raise taxes for someone else. FLAT TAX is a scam. Complexity in tax system does not come from tax brackets it comes from calculating deductions.

And if you really want to simplify taxation have the IRS build a system where you file online thru a secure web site.
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. It's a very poorly titled measure.
If you reread the OP, you'll see that the proposal has 3 brackets: 15%, 25%, and 35%. How exactly this could be called a "flat" tax is beyond me.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #21
36. Flat Fair Tax
A combination of the two right wing "plans". At least, the name is.

Or, you could say its a more fair version of a flat tax...

But, yes, it is poorly named.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. It's "flat" inasmuch as all income is treated the same way.
I like it.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
16. You lose progressivity as you move from one bracket to the next.
For example:

$29,000 @15% = $4350.

$30,000 @25% = $7500.

You make a thousand more but pay $3200 more in taxes.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. I doubt it would work like that..
Edited on Mon Dec-12-05 08:26 PM by sendero
... it would probably work, bracket wise, exactly as it does now with different percentages.

So the higher rates apply to income above the previous bracket.

Or...

$29,000 @15% = $4350.

$30,000 @25% = $4350 + (25% of $1000) = $250 - total = $4600
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #20
37. Exactly
That kind of thinking, "You pay much more but only make a little more", is what has helped Republicans keep regressive taxes for years.

But I imagine your analysis is probably more correct.

Most likely, it would be anything up to and including 30k would be 15%, and then anything over that (say, 30,001) would be done at 25%. So 30,000 x .15 + 1 x .25.

But, yes, I agree with you that this is most likely how it will be done.
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SONUVABUSH Donating Member (188 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
17. Are you kidding me????
Fair? You mean where the rich pay there fair share? In America? You can't have fair in America!!
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
18. Looks somewhat ok, but I have a bone to pick
on treating short term and long term gains the same.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
19. But you know why I prefer an income tax
with deductions? Because the code is flexible and can be changed without major life changes. The flatter you go, when revenues need to be raised, it's quite more a bigger hit. Frankly, I'm just about burned out with idealogues who think economies rise or sink and people rise or sink on the income tax rates.
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phiddle Donating Member (749 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
22. I'll sign on if he'll take the limits off of the FICA Taxes.
(Then it could truly be a flat tax.)
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Michigander4Dean Donating Member (588 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
23. He should run in '08 - at least for VP | nt
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nickshepDEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Interesting... Ive never heard his name mentioned as an '08 contender.
Edited on Mon Dec-12-05 11:58 PM by nickshepDEM
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Michigander4Dean Donating Member (588 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #26
39. Not yet...
I bet you he will make a name for himself, though.
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TriMetFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. No! We Oregonians don't want to share Sen. Ron Wyden
to much with the rest of the Nation. We need him here to fight for us. He has fought the gas and oil companies when they start raising the price. He fights for our seniors. I know, I know I'm just being selfish. Sen. Ron Wyden is a very smart man and a good man. He is our jewel.
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Michigander4Dean Donating Member (588 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #27
38. Yes you're a selfish bastard!
Just kidding. ;-)

But will you please let us have him as VP for eight years and Prez for eight more? I promise you can have him back. Pretty please???
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
25. this plan does NOT value "work over wealth"
the number one test for whether a tax system is FAIR is whether it is based on ability to pay ...

Wyden's system fails that test miserably ...

consider the following situation ... compare a multi-millionaire who doesn't have any earned income at all to a person who works and doesn't have any investment income at all ...

the multi-millionaire rakes in $100K from interest and dividends and the worker also makes $100K ... if i understand Wyden's plan, they would be taxed the same ... but the multi-millionaire could surely afford to pay higher taxes than the guy with nothing in the bank ...

until we start basing our tax system on wealth instead of just on income, we will not have a FAIR tax system ...
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. Nail, meet head
Wyden's plan sounds like a good start, but I think there should be a wealth tax. If we had a real wealth tax, we would not need the estate tax either.
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phiddle Donating Member (749 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #25
34. I think that you misunderstand his proposal,
in part because of the misnomer "Flat Tax" which it carries. (Misnomer because he actually has 3 tax rates---15, 25 and 35%---in his proposal.) Wyden proposes to eliminate the current special treatment whereby capital gains, dividends, etc. are taxed at a maximum of 10%, thereby making these categories of income taxable at the same rates (currently 20% - 35%) that apply to income from wages and salaries. IMHO it's a big step. He uses the revenues thus gained to vastly expand the standard deduction---$15,000 in his proposal---which is also a very progressive step, becuase since $15,000 is a much larger % of my income than of Bill Gates', it effectively reduces my tax rate more than his.
One other element which I would like to see is to lift the cap on the FICA (SS-Medicare) taxes. Currently FICA of 15.2% applies to only the first $88,000 of income, meaning that Bill Gates pays the same FICA as a teacher and cop husband and wife. I would add a surtax of 15.2% to incomes above $88,000 and absorb it into general revenue.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. i don't think so ...
Edited on Wed Dec-14-05 04:14 PM by welshTerrier2
please explain why you would oppose the idea of directly taxing wealth ...

let me provide a somewhat absurd example just to make the point ...

take someone with 10 Billion dollars who buys gold and buries it in his backyard ... take someone else who earns $50,000 in salary and has minimal interest and dividend income ...

which of those two people has the greater ability to contribute to the country's need for revenue? Wyden's plan would tax the wage earner but would not levy any tax at all on the billionaire ... by focussing a tax system solely on income instead of a hybrid between income AND wealth, you fail to base that tax system on "ability to pay" ... any system that fails that essential test should never be called a "fair" tax system ...

i strongly support eliminating special treatment for capital gains and dividends as Wyden's plan calls for ... but you can see from the hypothetical above that his plan does not go nearly far enough in valuing work over wealth ...
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
29. What is "flow-through income"? nt
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
30. Where, on the list of itemized deductions,
do all of my professional expenses occur?

You know; where I have to take the money I earn and spend it on professional development, on-going education, supplies to do the job, etc..?
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Nimrod2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 08:46 AM
Response to Original message
31. Perfect!!! We need Steve Forbes to bless it....
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Nimrod2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 08:47 AM
Response to Original message
32. Perfect!!! We need Steve Forbes to bless it....
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Nimrod2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 08:47 AM
Response to Original message
33. Perfect!!! We need Steve Forbes to bless it....
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