Tookie Williams is set to die Monday night, how many dems are for death...

[guidod]

You'll have to excuse me because this is my first thread that I have posted.

With the possibillity of Tookie Williams being killed tonight I was wondering how many dems. believe that his sentence should be carried out.
I was wondering how many of us believe in the death penalty being used as a form of punishment.

I, for one, don't believe that the death penalty should be used in any case, not even Saddam Hussein. I don't believe in the theory of an eye for an eye.
I believe that God is the one who gave us life and he should be he only one that takes it away. The person should be taken somewhere and locked up for life and never released back into society.

Tookie Williams was doing some possitive things in prion to help in keeping kids out of the gang life and try to lead them in the right way, for that he should be commended.

I really would like to hear from all the dems on their stance on capital punishment

[thefloyd]

1. Breakfast

:popcorn:

[Cooley Hurd]

2. Welcome to DU, guidod! I'm anti-CP in ALL cases!

Forgive me for this repost of an earlier posting of mine:

Do you trust the justice system to get it right every single time?


'Nuff said.

As long as justice isn't foolproof (see above), irrevocable sentences should never be imposed.:thumbsdown:

[guidod]

4. Good Answer!

Thank you Cooley Hurd. That's the answer that I was looking for. I can't even imagine how many innocent people have died

[win_in_06]

22. At least four innocent people were murdered by Tookie Williams.

[JuniperLea]

26. Then he should spend four lifetimes in prison

Remembering what he did and knowing that is why he is locked away from society.

[NYC Liberal]

120. So your solution is to kill MORE peope?

GREAT idea...makes lots of sense... :eyes:

[janedoe]

27. I'm confused.

He's charged with the crime of killing some folks. But, when the "authorities" kill someone, they don't call it a crime. I'm confused. Are they leading by example? Maybe they didn't think he used the proper instruments? If it's wrong to kill someone, it's wrong. End of story.

Also, I believe it's cheaper to keep him alive, in a cage. And, then there is the case of how permanent the sentence becomes.

Did anyone ever see that movie, "The life of David Gale?" If not, this is a good time to see it.

[Rainbowreflect]

31. I have a button that reads...

Why do we kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?

That is how I feel. You cannot fight violence with violence, hate with hate or killing with killing.

[Nutmegger]

56. Hey that's my bumber sticker!

It's horrible public policy. My failth tells me that taking away a life, any life, is wrong.

[Rainbowreflect]

64. Welcome to DU Nutmegger.

I cannot support the death penalty in any case. I get physically sickened by those who seem almost giddy when someone is executed.

[Nutmegger]

107. Thank you Rainbowreflect , good to be here

It's always disturbing to watch some of these people alomst foam at the mouth when the issue of capital punishment is mentioned.

[laylah]

57. I have the bumper sticker!

I just love it!

Jenn

[TankLV]

100. I'd rather a million or more GUILTILY persons GO FREE than kill ONE

innocent person.

Just my personal beliefs.

But at the same time, I'm not losing sleep over this one.

[janedoe]

109. Doesn't it bother you to know someone is being murdered?

By saying, "I'm not losing sleep over this one," are you saying you've found he is guilty of killing someone, yet you support killing him???

Also, how can you be so sure he is guilty? Do you trust our propaganda media to "always tell the truth?"

[terrya]

3. I agree with you.

The death penalty is wrong. Period. The state has no business meteing out what basically is biblical justice. It's barbaric. We should be better than this. I oppose the death penalty in any situation.

Tookie Williams should be behind bars for the rest of his life. Without any chance for parole. No book deals, no film deals, none of that shit. Tookie Williams should basically rot in prison until the day he dies.

Ditto Saddam Hussein. To execute Hussein would make a martyr out of him.

[guidod]

6. When I posted thhis thread

I never thought that I would get such positive answer.

[terrya]

7. Well, not everyone has weighed in, yet. :-) BTW:

Welcome to Democratic Underground, guidod.

[guidod]

9. Thanks for the welcome

and I'm off to bed for a few hours. I hope that I'll hear frome the other side. soon.

[JuniperLea]

25. Barbaric

Killing is barbaric no matter who does the killing.

Why award a murderer with death? Death is too good for them. Why put an end to the suffering? The families of murder victims are NEVER afforded the luxury of an end to their suffering.

I have a real problem with a person on death row being anyone's hero. This whole deal about writing books and sending a message to our youth is just sick and twisted.

Death row inmates should have no contact with the outside world, except an occasional visit from a lawyer. That is the only right that should be allowed.

[LandOLincoln]

101. I'm sorry, but I think your view is twisted. Are you a

Christian? If so, do you not believe in redemption? You don't think someone can turn his life around and make it worth something?

If not, why not?

[ProudDad]

121. What you're suggesting

is also barbaric.

When are you all going to learn?

You cannot change behavior in a positive way by behaving worse.

[bliss_eternal]

5. Welcome to DU, guidod--

From the threads that have been posted around here about T. Williams, I think you'll be surprised how many here seem to support the death penalty, or at least they do for this case. :shrug:

Personally, I've never understood the culture of people that go to executions like they are a spectator sport, and cheer when the person is killed. I just don't understand it at all...

I don't support the death penalty. I'm not an eye for an eye kind of person either. But I'm going to withold judgement on those that do support it. I don't want to be judged for not supporting it. Everyone's different.

[guidod]

8. Good Answer

I appreciate your thoughts. The posts I've seen so far are very encouraging.

I'm off to bed so I'll answer the rest of the posts in a few hours.

[ProudDad]

122. Sorry, can't get completely off the hook

As a moral issue, murder is wrong no matter who does it.

I WILL not withhold judgment on those who support state sponsored murder just as I will not withhold judgment on all forms of murder.

IT'S ALWAYS WRONG. IT'S ALWAYS UNJUSTIFIABLE.

Someday, in the not too distant future, it will also NOT be the law of this land just as it's been outlawed in the Civilized world.

[bowens43]

10. I am opposed to capital punishment,

absolutely, without exception.

[tritsofme]

11. My only regret about "tookie"

is that they didn't fry him years ago.

[guidod]

42. I'm sorry you feel that way..

Frying is barbaric as stoning.

[Wetzelbill]

12. besides the morality of the act itself....

I'm sure some people deserve execution. I'm sure some don't. Whether it is up for us or God to decided, I do not know. Is it moral for the State or a Government to carry out justice in the form of Capital punishment? I don't really know. I would say not, because I don't believe in putting people to death period. Yet, I understand why some people consider it justice. Certainly there are criminals who have done awful things, and I don't feel the need to shed a tear for someone like a Ted Bundy or Timothy McVeigh.

However, I believe that there is no way for our system to be perfect. It is flawed. Disproportionately, the people on death row are poor or minorities. That is a problem if a system is tilted that way. It is also a problem when innocent people accidentally get put to death. This has happened, and as long as we have the Death Penalty it will always happen. That alone is a compelling reason to never execute anyone. Because if one innocent person is to die, then that is one too many. I think we are better and more civilized than that. Or we should be anyway.

[JuniperLea]

28. "Disproportionately, the people on death row are poor or minorities."

That's a myth. Google up the numbers. I'd do it now, but I don't have the time at the moment.

[WildClarySage]

30. It usually has less to do with the skin color of the perpetrator than

the skin color of the victim. And, on edit, the poverty factor is not a myth.

[JuniperLea]

39. No, the poverty factor is not a myth and that's not what I said

If a homeless or very poor individual is murdered, it seems no one cares to enforce the death penalty. That is sickening. The death penalty is sickening, but when used at the whim of some judge, it's totally disgusting and only serves to prove how wrong it is to begin with.

[Wetzelbill]

34. no it isn't

not for the percentage that they represent in the population.

[JuniperLea]

37. Where are you getting your "facts"?

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=5&did=184

White people are a minority, numerically, in California, yet 65% of those put to death here are white.

[Wetzelbill]

60. sure and I bet they are all rich too

[Wetzelbill]

61. from the site you just listed

Minorities Dominate Federal Death Penalty Prosecutions
Since 1988, the federal government has authorized seeking the death penalty against 211 defendants. Of the 211 approved prosecutions, 158 (75%) were against minority defendants. Of these defendants, 53 have been white, 39 Hispanic, 12 Asian/Indian/Pacific Islander, 2 Arab and 105 African American. Of the twenty inmates currently on federal death row, 17 (85%) are members of a minority group. For a summary of the cases authorized for the federal death penalty.

Of the 211 federal death penalty prosecutions authorized by the Attorney General since 1988, 75% have been against minorities:

53 white
39 Hispanic
14 Asian/Indian/Arab
105 African-American.
211 prosecutions - 158 (75%) were against minority defendants

(Source: Federal Death Penalty Resource Counsel Project (3/14/01))

[ProudDad]

124. Too small a sample

sorry, you just flunked your statistics quiz.

[ProudDad]

125. From your link

Did you even read it????
--------------------------------------------------
RACE OF DEFENDANTS EXECUTED IN THE U.S. SINCE 1976

BLACK----338-----34%----- 10% of population
HISPANIC--63------6%
WHITE----579---- 58%
OTHER-----22----2.3%

NOTE: The federal government counts some categories, such as Hispanics, as an ethnic group rather than a race. DPIC refers to all groups as races because the sources for much of our information use these categories.


RACE OF VICTIMS* SINCE 1976

BLACK-----208---14%
HISPANIC---64---4.0%
WHITE----1198---80%
OTHER------29---1.9%

Everything here suggests that the death penalty is COMPLETELY RACIST.

[ProudDad]

123. Sorry, it isn't a myth

It IS true that poor, brown and black people are disproportionatly represented on death rows.

You're completely wrong (or don't know how to google)

[WildClarySage]

13. Personally, I think the more heinous the crime

the less the DP should be applied. It's too humane for some, over too quickly. They should be the ones to rot in jail forever. Life in jail, no hope for parole. The rest, the ones who are there because of inadequate legal representation, skin color or national origins, poverty, etc. deserve better than to be killed by a society that never gave two shits about them in the first place. The death penalty doesn't give anyone justice, it makes more victims, it compounds the crime, it trivializes the human spirit, and it does nothing it's supposed to do: it doesn't protect society. Until these things can be fairly addressed, hell no I don't support it.

[RC]

14. Your comments on the death penalty deserves its own thread.

It's well thought out.

[WildClarySage]

20. Thanks, I've had time to consider it.

My aunt and uncle own a chain of convenience stores in SC. Two of his brothers were killed in separate robbery incidents there. One was shot by a white man, one by a black man. Guess which got the death penalty. Injecting the guy who shot my uncle's brother with a lethal dose of chemicals won't do a damn thing to bring him back nor closure to the family. It won't make any difference except that some people will feel morally superior to others. Killing the black perpetrator won't bring any additional justice that keeping the white perpetrator behind bars for life won't. And it sure as hell won't discourage anyone else from committing murder.

[guidod]

40. Thanks for the post

You said a lot of things and I agree with them all except the last one. Even if all of what you said were to be addressed, DP shouldn't be in the equation at any time. DP should be a thing of the past and only mentioned in History books.

[Lerkfish]

15. I'm extremely against the death penalty, but that doesn't mean

I want to lionize people on death row simply because of that.
I think some people who are against the death penalty make the mistake of framing the prisoner through rose colored glasses, and trying to make them seem "converted" or heroic. I think that's a pitfall because it opens the door to say those who are NOT converted or heroic DESERVE the death penalty.

the death penalty should be argued in abstract, on its merits (or lack thereof). tacking the argument to individual cases is needlessly complicated because it raises the divisive issue of guilt or "deservedness" of the penalty to the individual case and that drags the argument where it should not go.

the death penalty should be opposed because its the death penalty, not because joe blow on death row is now albert schweitzer.

[tx_dem41]

17. Lerk....you have written my thoughts exactly.

I am dead set against the death penalty, but the lionizing of Tookie on DU this past week has sadly made me quite ambivalent towards the outcome of this case.

[guidod]

43. Thank you Lerkfish...

You helped me to see one of my errors in what I posted. Tookie Williams has been nominated for the Pulitzer prize five different times and his books are helping in keeping kids out of gangs, but that shouldn't be a reason for opposing the death penalty. We should oppose the death penalty because it is the death penalty. Thanks

[last_texas_dem]

116. I agree with your stance

I am against the death penalty altogether. Like the bumper sticker noted above, I just don't see the point in killing someone to supposedly prove that killing is wrong. Additionally, I have never seen convincing statistical proof that the death penalty acts as a deterrent. Pro-capital punishment folks who try to argue that anti-death penalty folks' arguments have no merit because they are "bleeding hearts" letting their emotions lead them are generally being major-league hypocrites. I rarely see pro-capital punishment people using facts to support their beliefs; their arguments are generally based on their own twisted version of morality, whether it be "eye for an eye", "let the punishment fit the crime", "it's in the Bible", etc. I believe they rarely use statistics because statistics showing the death penalty to be a deterrent are almost non-existent.

Additionally, I agree with another poster above who noted that killing one innocent person through the death penalty is reason enough to not apply it. Our country should not have a system that permits this, and it has been discovered to have permitted this far too many times.

I also agree with your point about the mistake in heaping too much praise on what positive things convicted murderers have done once they are in prison to convince people not to support the death penalty in their particular case. I think making exemptions in certain cases for whatever reasons opens up a can of worms that should not be opened. It's like trying to figure out what instances torture should be permissible. Once you think of one "superbad" crime, it's easy to add other crimes that are just as bad, and eventually destroy your anti-death penalty or anti-torture stance altogether. There are basic and strong reasons to oppose the death penalty altogether; the question should not be over the intensity of the crime someone committed or what they have done to "atone" since their conviction. It sort of makes me think of Camus's The Stranger where the main guy is put to death as much because he doesn't seem to be showing remorse or willingness to claim some sort of Christian conversion, than based on the crime that he actually committed.

[ProudDad]

126. In this case

The case of Tookey, he did Redeem himself.

But in this republican wet dream of a world, redemption and rehabilitation and reformation are not valued.

It's been very sad to see how many people don't value these miracles on this board...

on edit:

I believe that the death penalty and the torture that IS the current penal system devalues all of us and is morally wrong in ALL cases.

[Lerkfish]

135. my point is: so what if he did? that alone does not invalidate capital

punishment. Capital punishment is right or wrong because its right or wrong, irregardless of the individual case.

I'm saying its a pitfall to try to use "miracles" as an argument against capital punishment. Because that then logically implies that those who aren't "miracles" are deserving of death because they DIDN"T redeem themselves.

I'm saying, if you oppose the death penalty, you're unwittingly throwing an easy lob to your opponent if lionize those apparently redeemed within the system. That only glorifies the individual and ignores the fault in the system. The system has to be changed, so that we don't have to make heroes of the individual before they can overcome the system. If we depend on governor clemency to overturn the system, that's not really going to work, because governors and attitudes change. The system itself has to change.

If you view my point as sad, then I must say I view yours as ineffective in the long run.

[Journeyman]

134. I oppose the death penalty because of who *I* am. . .

not because of who Mr Williams may be. . .

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

16. Welcome to DU-like you, I'm anti DP

There have been some very lively discussions here the last week or so on whether Mr. Williams should be executed, so I know that there are some DUers who feel that the death penalty is justified in certain instances-I recall one poster who said it should be done for mass murderers and for baby rapists.

In Mr. Williams' case, he says that he did not kill the people. He did not say he had never murdered someone, just that he was innocent of the murders he was convicted for. In watching him on Tavis Smiley, I got the impression that he thought it ironic that he would be executed not for something he did do, but for what he didn't do. His demeanor was one of resignation-he did not appear to be fearful of death.

[Glorfindel]

18. As much as I love to fantasize about guillotined Repukes...

and me in the crowd cheering "liberte, egalite, fraternite!" as each head falls, it's just fantasy. I seriously don't believe in the death penalty. As has been said before, for the most heinous crimes, death is too easy for the perpetrators.

[tom swift]

19. Death Penalty

Since you asked: I'm opposed to the death penalty much like I'm opposed to abortion. In my mind, each position is held in large part for religious reasons.

But I understand that being a citizen of a pluralistic society is separate and distinct from being religious, or more clearly, having religious beliefs. I have an obligation to both proslyetize my religion through word and deed and also to speak out through my representatives (as well as directly) against what I believe to be a societal wrong.

I do not, however, feel moved to anger when the society has arrived at a policy with which I disagree. So long as that society doesn't seek to force me to commit a moral wrong, then I can feel secure knowing that I have adhered to my beliefs. Jesus on the cross said,"Forgive them,Father,for they know not what they do."

[guidod]

41. Great Answer!

Thanks Tom Swift.

[Moochy]

59. Commiting a Moral Wrong

Back when I was vacillating on the issue of the death penalty in High School,I used to be able to get away from the guilt of murdering the murderer by denying that the state was executing criminals in my name. So, despite your security of knowing that you've adhered to your beliefs, others are committing a killing of a human, in our name. For me, this realization was profound, and speaks to one's role in society and community.

[tom swift]

63. Death Penalty

I'm quite well aware that the state commits many acts,all, ostensibly, in the name of each of its citizens. But it is as a body collective not in the name of any one person that the action takes place. To feel otherwise and to likewise seek to be true to yourself, you'd have to move (often) to increasingly isolated spots. That or you have to be in a constant state of either anger at being unable to control all around you or remorse at some senseless tragedy resulting from an accident of the machinery of the state. I simply try "to thine own self be true". Sometimes yes,sadly,sometimes not. But I do not accept the cosmic empathy theory, Stars Wars is fiction.

[Double T]

21. Murder by the STATE is a heinous act that is nothing less than BARBARIC...

Civilized societies that in engage in STATE SPONSORED EXECUTIONS are truly NOT civilized. I find it interesting that a significant number of people who claim to be PRO-LIFE when it comes to the UNBORN, think nothing of and actually support state sponsored executions; where is the logic???? Others that claim to be devoutly religious actually support state sponsored executions; what happened to thou shall not kill???? There are a lot of hypocrites when it comes to the death penalty; kill an innocent person by mistake once and YOUR SYSTEM OF PUNISHMENT IS A TOTAL FAILURE!!!!!!!

[niceypoo]

33. Though I am against the government having power of life and death over us

I have zero sorrow for "Tookie". He is a mass murderer who heaped much misery upon Los Angeles and the rest of the country by starting the "Crips" gang (Which spawned the Bloods gang as a defensive reaction). Having written children's books to stop kids from joining gangs after starting Americas gang problem is like Hitler writing books about loving your jewish neighbors after starting the holocaust. I shed nary a tear for the man.

[guidod]

45. You still didn't

address your feeling towards the death penalty.

[demokatgurrl]

52. Murder is murder is murder. Does anyone ever wonder why

so many other "civilized" countries have done away with this barbaric form of revenge, I mean "punishment"?

[ProudDad]

128. All civilized countries have

It's too bad we don't live in one of those...

[AuntieM1957]

23. Welcome to DU

This Texas Democrat finds the death penalty to be "cruel and unusual" punishment.

Moreover, it is not a deterrent to violent crime, despite the fact that it's far more expensive than life in prison without parole. That's a sentence I could support for the most violent offenders.

Finally, the death penalty brings dishonor and infamy to my state and my country.

[Douglas Carpenter]

24. thank you for posting this

I don't know how many people realize that the U.S. is the only modern industrialized democracy that actually practices the death penalty yet has by far, by far the highest murder rate in the industrialized world.

Here is an excellent article, "The Case Against the Death Penalty" which sets forward a number of points regarding the death penalty and includes other info and links:

http://users.rcn.com/mwood/deathpen.html

"Capital punishment is cruel and unusual. It is a relic of the earliest days of penology, when slavery, branding, and other corporal punishments were commonplace. Like those other barbaric practices, executions have no place in a civilized society.

Opposition to the death penalty does not arise from misplaced sympathy for convicted murderers. On the contrary, murder demonstrates a lack of respect for human life. For this very reason, murder is abhorrent, and any policy of state-authorized killings is immoral.

Capital punishment denies due process of law. Its imposition is arbitrary and irrevocable. It forever deprives an individual of benefits of new evidence or new law that might warrant the reversal of a conviction or the setting aside of a death sentence.

The death penalty violates the constitutional guarantee of the equal protection of the laws. It is applied randomly at best and discriminatory at worst. It is imposed disproportionately upon those whose victims are white, on offenders who are people of color, and on those who are themselves poor and uneducated.

The defects in death-penalty laws, conceded by the Supreme Court in the early 1970s, have not been appreciably altered by the shift from unfettered discretion to "guided discretion." These changes in death sentencing have proved to be largely cosmetic. They merely mask the impermissible arbitrariness of a process that results in an execution."

[applegrove]

29. I resent the death penalty. So too - I resent having horrid criminals

get attention as their date comes up. But I guess to fight the death penalty that has to happen. Put them in jail & throw away the key. I am sick of the deaths.

[freethought]

32. Against the death penalty but for different reasons.

One could argue, and probably argue well, that certain criminals deserve death as punishment. One that comes to mind is Richard Allen Davis, the man who murdered Polly Klass. That was truly an act that does not warrent forgiveness and he showed no remorse. You could throw in Henry Lee Lucas or Ted Bundy.
For years I stood on the fence when it came to the death penalty sort of keeping neutral on the subject. A few things I saw changed my mind. The first was a "60 Minutes" story on a young man named Rolando Cruz, falsely convicted and sentenced to death for the murder of a young girl in Illinois.
The second was a documentry movie called "The Thin Blue Line". The film focused on the trial, evidence, and conviction of a man sitting on death row in Texas who was convicted of killing a Texas police officer. The third event was done by former Governor George Ryan,(correct me if have the name or state wrong), of Illinois. Ryan found out that a prisoner whose execution he had signed off on quite likely was innocent. I guess he wisely questioned if other execution orders he had signed were as equally tainted.

All of these things I had seen had a common thread. Each shows what can happen when politics, justice, and the death penalty get mixed. It can be a dangerous mixture where nobody is safe.
It is for that reason that I oppose the death penalty. In trying to dispense justice the process can become twisted in committing state sanctioned murder.

[Liberaler]

35. It's revenge and not punishment!

The idea of a penitentiary system is to punish and rehabilitate. Unfortunatly, USA forgot rehabilitate and have today the worlds largest prison population and the largest portion of it's citizens behind bars. I refuse to believe that it is something genetically in each and every american that makes them more prone to become criminals than people in other countries.
More than 2 million people in US prisons, that is insane and says more about the medival and cruel and inhumane legal system this country has. Add to that the death penalty only kept by the most underdeveloped countries in the world and in this case, USA is a 3rd world country.

Death penalty is disgusting and nothing but pure revenge. But on the other side, locking someone up for the rest of their life is also inhumane and borders to torture. You wonder why there is so much problems and violence in US prisons? Well, when the only thing you have to look forward to, is to leave this place in a wooden box, then you really don't care what happens and violence becomes an expression of hopelessness. The Norwegian writer Henrik Ibsen deals with this topic in The Wild Duck, the whole play is available online at http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/IbsWild.html. You can not take away the hope of the future, what do you have left then? Nothing and you life becomes meaningless and that is what happens in US prisons due to the extremly long sentences passed.

Bottom line for me: Death penalty is revenge and not justice!

[guidod]

46. I agree with most

of what you say. But some crimes, as in Timothy McVeigh, should carry a maximum sentence of life with no parole. Someone like him should spend the remaining years of his life being punished for what he did. In his case a life sentence would not be considered revenge.

[Liberaler]

74. Why?

What is so special about him? Were you personally affected by the Oklahoma bombing?

I would say he is mentally ill and need active treatment. That may confine him to a mental instution for the rest of his life, but prison? Hell no!

[guidod]

81. No, I wasn't personally affected....

I'm not trying to have a discussion about Timothy McVeigh. I agree that he probably should have gone to a mental institution, but that's another discussion. I'm trying to hear dems views on DP

[TriMetFan]

36. I used to be for the Death Penalty.

But the more I have gotten in touch with the teachings of Jesus Christ, the more I feel that the taking of a life is wrong. I also feel that with the technology that we have now-in-days they should be able to tell if this man did kill those people. He says he didn't kill them. Test the DNA that is what I say.

[guidod]

47. I went through the same

transformation as you did, but I can't understand why the majority of Christians believe in death.

[DesertRat]

97. I don't understand it either...

Catholic Christians are against the death penalty. But many Christians including fundamentalists are for it. It flies in the face of everything Jesus taught.

[guidod]

103. I went to a Catholic

Church for 30 years. I'm married to woman of a Catholic family that has 3 priests in it. I don't know of, or ever heard of, one Catholic that doesn't believe in the death penalty. That is only one of MANY reasons I no longer practice religion.

[DesertRat]

105. Interesting

My daughter is in Catholic high school, and my son recently graduated from Catholic (Jesuit) high school and they and all of their friends are vehemently against the death penalty. The Jesuit high school hosted a death penalty forum with a week of guest speakers and performed Tim Robbin's play "Dead Man Walking". I don't personally know anyone in our faith community who is for the death penalty.
Are you saying that the 3 priests in your wife's family are pro-death penalty???

[guidod]

114. That's exactly what I'm asying...

Her entire family, including the priests, all favor the DP. They're Italian, maybe that has something to do with it. All I know is that when I say white they all say black. When I say odd they all say even. I was baptized by my Mother-in-Laws Brother in my Mother-in-Laws living room (this is beginning to sound like Rose Marys Baby). They are all right wing snobs.

Maybe they don't want me around, nah.

[SaveElmer]

38. Murder is murder...

It is no more right when it is committed by the state!

[win_in_06]

55. Justice is not murder.

[SaveElmer]

58. It's not justice...it's revenge!

Plain and simple. Just because the government is the one doing it does not make it correct.

[radio4progressives]

78. exactly so.

justice is life imprisonment, never to be free to do the crime again.

execution is murder for the sake of revenge only, period.

[BigYawn]

85. Less than 1% of murderers, the most brutal & vile get death penalty

as it should be. I am not for executing most muderers, just
the cold blooded, multiple muderers, who murdered in the most
inhumane and brutal fashion.

If you want to call it revenge, then we should execute them
in identical manner how they murdered their victims. But we
do not do that. Williams will be given a injection, and he will
die with pain 1000 times less than he subjected his victims to.

[SaveElmer]

93. You're parsing murder?

Murder is morally wrong...no matter how brutal. As to the nature of the brutality, certainly sentencing can reflect that, but in no case should state murder be sanctioned.

[BigYawn]

112. I respect your position on CP, I hope you will respect mine endorsing

capital punishment of extremely brutal and vile murderers.

[The Magistrate]

44. There Is No Compelling Reason The Man Should Not Die, Sir

"For they have sown the wind, and shall reap the whirlwind."

[guidod]

48. Another gung-ho statement

like "We'll fight them over there instead instead of fighting them here", "For they have sown the wind, and shall reap the whirlwind". Smell what you're shoveling, you sound like the Grim Reaper. Your OWN interpratation of a quote does not mean YOU have the right to take another life.

[The Magistrate]

50. Perhaps, Then, Sir

You would have preferred "What goes around, comes around?"

The meanings are the same, after all, namely that persons will bear the consequences of their own actions, one way or another. There does not seem to be any serious question whether or not this person has in the past arrogated to himself the right to take the lives of others; it leaves him with little ground for complaint if he is done by as he has himself done....

[guidod]

68. Mr. Magistrate,

I respect your right to voice your opinion like everyone else. I also respect your rights, as a Citizen of this Country, to express your baseless, shallow thinking talking points that you've regurgitated so far. "What goes around, comes around" makes as much sense as the other one you said. Taking someones life should not be a way of getting even. If you're going to use cliches try "Two wrongs don't make a right".

I'm trying to find out the reason behind statements

[guidod]

49. Are you Hapy Now?

Shitsnager just denied him climency. Another dark day in this historoy of our falling Country. Shame, shame, shame.

[The Magistrate]

53. That News Has No Particular Impact On My Mood, Sir

There must always be some element of regret when a person dies.

[McLuhan]

69. Magistrate,

do you think that "some element of regret" would be that the authorities didn't convict Ted Bundy and execute him sooner?:>)

[BigYawn]

67. Hear Hear.........n/t

[Hippo_Tron]

108. But how does killing him help society?

The judicial system is made to serve society and society only. With appeals it has costed us 3 times as much to carry out this execution than it would have to just let Tookie Williams rot in a cell for the rest of his life. Not to mention the fact that society also pays a price when we accidentally execute the innocent.

What exactly do we gain as a society by having the death penalty?

[demokatgurrl]

51. Sadly, more than I ever imagined. n/t

[VaYallaDawg]

54. Like niceypoo and a couple other very thoughtful posters on

this thread (and in fact, all of the folks who respond to this - both DP supporters and opponents - have given it lots of thought, I'm convinced)in my own conscience I have to oppose it. And if the information I know about is correct, it looks like Williams did some very horrific crimes. I have to believe our society is creative and intelligent enough to come up with a better way to deal with justice than the DP.

[catmother]

62. i don't believe in the death penalty. i think it's barbaric. it freaks

me out when they talk about getting the gloves and syringes ready. it's so calculated.

[Contrary1]

65. I've always felt that those who commit violent crimes should be removed

from the rest of us...permanently. And, by that; I do not mean execution. What would be so horrible about putting the most violent criminals on an island? They would be free to roam around and do whatever they want. Supplies, food, mail, etc., could be dropped in on a weekly basis. They would be free to fish, and grow their own gardens.

The employees would be the only ones behind bars, so to speak, for their own safety. It would cost millions less than we spend now.

[guidod]

70. The problem with that is

Dumsfeld would be shipping them weapons and we would probably get another Iraq. Maybe one of the Bushbrats could run for president and muder a bunch of us.

[BigYawn]

66. For death penalty in some cases such as:

Assasin of mahatama Gandhi, spiritual leader of Billion people...
Gacy who raped and murdered two dozen young boys...
Dahmer who murdered and consumed corpses of his victims..
Speck who killed 9 young nurses in cold blood...
Osama Laden who ordered terrorist attacks resulting in
deaths of 3000 people...
Any Serial Killer who has murdered several victims.

Most other muderers whould get life sentence without parole.

[high density]

71. If I were on a jury I could never vote for the death penalty

I'm not a single issue voter on it and I don't think about it very often, but I would prefer to see it abolished. My main reason is because I believe that nobody on this planet should decide whether or not another person dies.

[BigYawn]

82. But it's OK for the murderer to decide to brutally murder his victims?

But we the people, have no right to remove the most vile
of the murderous lot fromn humanity? Mu guess is we execute
far less than 1% of the murderers, the most vile, the most
brutal kind. That is as it should be.

In case of Tookie Williams, if you saw the pictures of the
victims and their bloody mangled bodies, you might realize
that Williams is well deserving of death executed in a painless
manner, which he did not afford his victims.

[high density]

88. No murder is OK in my opinion

Whether it's a brutal murder or painless state-sanctioned poisoning, I think it's wrong.

[BigYawn]

113. I respect your opinion on abolishing capital punishment, and I hope

you will let me be entitled to my belief that anyone who
tortures, rapes and then murders their victim in the most
brutal manner and then repeats his/her vile deeds does not
deserve to live amongst humanity.

I abhor brutality and have zero sympathy for those who dish it out mercilessly. Can you imagine the pain of the parents of the
mid-20's young man shot by T. Williams and then shot again at
point blank range to make sure he left no witness behind. The
pictures show the poor mans brains and head splattered in
thousand pieces.

And how about the husband and wife shot several times by Williams
and then shot their only daughter, all in one nights hold up crime
spree at the motel they owned. Sorry this bastard does not deserve
to die painlessly by injection. I wish he could suffer 10% of the pain
suffered by his victims.

[ProudDad]

127. There are witnesses

who swear that this is untrue, Mr Bloodthirsty...

You have no way of being 100% sure of this narrative you've spun here. Therefore, there is NO way you can be sure beyond a reasonable doubt that Mr. Williams committed these crimes.

It's just as likely that the awful people who did them are still on the loose thanks to the frame the L.A. D.A.s and cops fitted up for Mr. Williams.

[bosspepper1]

72. An eye for an eye n/t

FOR.

[guidod]

73. If you truely believe in

"An eye for an eye" should we punish rapist by raping them? Should we punish hit and run drivers by hitting them with a car? All these clishes mean absolutely nothing. The question is should we become the same people that do the killing. I say no.

[bosspepper1]

80. Yes

if we can... but in reality, a murderer dies. Period. If he killed MY son/daughter.. white, black or green...yes, delete him.

[guidod]

84. Are they always 100% sure

that they have the right person? I don't think so. A lot of people have been let out of prison since DNA came into play. Is revenge worth killing innocent people?

[ProudDad]

129. As Gandhi said

"an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind".

Enlightened beings don't need to kill those who kill. Enlightened beings don't have to torture or maim to "prove a point".

[gulfcoastliberal]

75. Count me as anti-death penalty. It's barbaric. EOM

[Blue_In_AK]

76. I am against the death penalty.

[radio4progressives]

77. I am against the Death Penalty, I am against this execution

I am a life time, 7th generation registered Democrat - but i am also a Left Progressive (and often vote Green in local and state elections).

My opposition to the death penalty sort of solidified about twenty years ago or longer, can't remember exactly when - but it should become clear to clear thinking, intelligent people - that we as a nation, cannot continue to endorse state sanctioned murder. One cannot use religion as a rational to justify the death sentence, the eye for an eye adage says two things, one that christianity says murder is ok, (i think some people would disagree with that as christian teaching) but two, even if exectutions were really sanctioned by biblical teachings, where is the separation of church and state?

Life imprisonment, is not freedom. is that fact too obvious?

[guidod]

79. Well said radio4progressive.

With all of these cliches floating around today I'll give you another one, "You Hit the Nail on the Head". Thank you

[DesertRat]

83. I'm against the death penality.

I prefer life in prison without possibility of parole.

[SONUVABUSH]

86. You should not.........

Rob and murder people. Especially in a state with the death penalty. If he wouldn't have been caught, he would have murdered probably many more. Gangsters should be glorified in rap music songs and magazines, not on DU.

[guidod]

89. No, you shouldn't rob and murder

people. Perhaps you mis-understood the thread. I'm not glorifying anybody, all I want to find out is what are the dems feelings towards the Death Penalty. Should it exist or shouldn't it? Is it moral or isn't it? Why don't you read some other posts on this thread and then reply again.

[MrSlayer]

87. I'm a Democrat in favor of death. "God" thinks he should get it too.

"Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed for in the image of God made he man." Genesis 9:6

The Bible is wonderfully full of contradictions.

[guidod]

90. Do you have a personal

relationship with God like Bush does? Does he talk to you? guidod 10:4

[MrSlayer]

91. No.

I don't believe in god. I just like to throw that stuff out for those who do. You can usually find something to back any argument in the bible if you want to. It's that convoluted and contradictory.

[guidod]

92. Well said MrSlayer...

I don't believe in the bible.

[Dances with Cats]

94. AGAINST

n.t.

[jackpan1260]

95. AGAINST.

[Demi_Babe]

96. against

[Norwood]

98. Welcome to DU guidod!

I am pro-death penalty however I believe that it should be an extremely rare occurance. Reserved for the most heinous of crimes where there is absolutely, positively no doubt that the accused is guilty. I'm talking DNA evidence, credible eyewitnesses, etc, No doubt of guilt.

I understand the arguments against and I respect them, but I believe some crimes warrant the death penalty. For example, I have no problem with a death sentence on a person who brutally rapes and murders a child.

[TankLV]

99. I'm against the death penalty, but this guy is scum. Tough choice.

I've more important things and deserving persons to spend my energy and resources on.

Feh.

[ProudDad]

130. Was

the operative word is "Was" scum.

He's not now, on the hour of his death. He faced his murder by the state with a clear conscience.

May you be able to do the same...

[beaconess]

102. I'm an African American opposed to the death penalty.

But I can think of many, many more causes to get worked up over than Tookie Williams.

I figure he doesn't need my help. He's got a zillion major celebrities helping him out, a dozen lawyer working around the clock pro bono, the undivided attention of the state's governor (if only Texas death row inmates were so fortunate) and 24-7 public and media scrutiny. He'll get as fair a shake as possible for anyone.

I'm more worried about the guy in the cell next to Tookie or the person sentenced to death the same day as he was for a crime they may or may not have committed. Of course, we don't know their names or whether they're still alive, because no one gives a shit about them. But sympathy and massive public action for Tookie Williams - a man who unleashed an unpardonable swath of violence on our community that we may never recover from - is all the rage.

I hope all of the people who are falling all over themselves to jump on the Tookie bandwagon direct some of their passion and energy toward helping those people - many of whom are really are innocent and really were denied their rights - who have no one to speak up for them.

[guidod]

111. Thanks for the comment beaconess..

I don't intend to sound like I think that Tookie Williams deserves any special treatment, he doesn't. A jury agreed that he did some very bad and very ugly things. I also understand that he shouldn't receive anymore attention than the rest of the people on death row. He has a famous name so naturally the media is going to sensationalize the entire event.

There wouldn't be any sensationalism if we didn't have the death penalty. There wouldn't be the killing of innocent people if we didn't have the death penalty. You and I wouldn't behaving this discussion if we didn't have the death penalty.

Maybe we can use the energy that this event is creating and bring to light the unfairness of the system that forgets about so many people that need the attention that we fail to give them. Maybe we should all pay more attention to the laws we have and how those laws hurt so many people.

The death penalty is a terrible, terrible, terrible law. If we say that often enough and loud enough maybe we can finally put it to bed.

[eve_was_framed]

119. the death penalty is disproportionately given out to blacks and one

innocent person being executed is too many for me. Justice isn't blind to color as the prison system clearly shows so the death penalty shouldn't even be a punishment for consideration. Revenge won't bring the dead back to life and it's a sorry excuse for "comfort". I think the "eye for an eye" mentality of so many will blindly lead us back into the cave.

[blitzen]

104. Against in ALL cases n/t

[TheWebHead]

106. a better question would be

how many Dems are for making a special case for a "celebrity murderer" even though he shows no remorse for his actions nor acknowledges his guilt in senseless race inspired crimes. I would be happy if SCOTUS overturned capital punishment, but I'm not for just overturning the law in just Tookie's case -- especially in Tookie's case.

[autorank]

110. Our soldiers have been sentenced to death, injury, and lifelong agony.

They are the people I'm concerned about.

Death penalty...bad idea for the state to take a life. Is this guy guilty? Does a bear shit in the woods? Clemency but take his phone privileges. Maybe the guards are right and he's running a little action with his new found charity.

Remember, the first principal of real recovery is honesty. I don't see Tookie admitting that anything he did by founding the Crips killed anybody. Well it did so fess up Tookie.

[ProudDad]

131. The guards

are always full of shit, just like the cops.

[SONUVABUSH]

115. whacking people with a ..........

shotgun is a horrible thing to do. What if the guy killed your Mom or Dad or Brother?

[guidod]

117. In that case I would have to say...

the same thing. No DP

[ProudDad]

132. Me too

No Death Penalty...

[Bushwick Bill]

118. I just don't care...

Is this ghoulish? Yes. Is it being turned into a freakshow? Yes. The older I get, the more barbaric it seems. But, I have no feeling for this guy. I feel ten times worse for the victims' families. I have a million other things I would rather fight about: fake, stoked resource wars; 9/11 truth; election reform/examination of stolen elections; informing the public about the neocon agenda; selling out of American manufacturing base; destruction of trade unions; peak oil; looting of the public treasury; CIA leaks; Delay/Abramoff; petrotheocratic assholes; demonizing of gays, etc., etc. I honestly don't give a fuck about Tookie. Fuck him. If someone killed one of my family members, I would dance at their execution and shit on their grave.

[ProudDad]

133. It's all of a piece

Fake War, stolen elections, selling out of the workers, looting the public treasury, locking up the male members of African-American persuasion after sham, show trials, etc.

All the same.

[JerseygirlCT]

136. Welcome. The death penalty is never right. nt

[guidod]

137. With the Governor we have

here in California anyone could die. I worked with him on the movie T2 and believe me he is as bad as everyone says. He cares about people as much as Bush does. Why do Republicans love death so mch?