Just hear me out on the whole DLC/Moderate thing.

[nickshepDEM]

I try not to rant too much, but sometimes its needed.

Lately theres been a big disagreement between myself and other moderates/dlc type democrats within the party and our more liberal members.

In my year or so at DU Ive been called everything from a 'closet freeper' to 'republican lite' to 'DINO'.

I didnt start the 'Recall Dean?' thread simply to start a war. I wanted to raise it as an issue.

You may not agree with all of my posts, comments, and ideas. Thats fine. But all I ask is, do not question my dedication to the party I belong to and the party I love.

I believe in economic justice for all Americans. I believe in a tax code that benefits the working class people of this country. I believe in fair trade, not free trade. Trade with strong labor and enviormental protections. I believe in protecting Social Security. I believe in providing for those who cannot provide for themselves.

When Paul Hackett was fighting in OH-2 and needed money to compete with the Republican money machine. I put aside 25 bucks out of my $150 paycheck to help him out.

When my Congressman, Dutch Ruppersberger, a democrat, voted for that horrible Bankruptcy Bill of 2005. I wrote him and made it loud and clear that he would not receive a dime from me in 2006. And if he didnt shape up, he wouldnt receive my vote.

When Ted Stevens got his bridge to nowhere, but the Republicans in congress could not 'find the money' for medicare, school lunch programs, and student aid... I wrote my elected officials. I signed the Moveon.org 'Reverse Robin Hood Budget' petition.

Im a Democrat. Just like you. I may not walk the line 100% of the time, but I believe in the same core principles you do. How we get there and what elected officals we back may differ, but in the end, we're on the same team...

Thanks for listening.

:rant:

[bemildred]

1. Welcome to the Democratic Party Sir.

:applause:

[madeline_con]

2. I'll scurry out to the wood pile ...

for some kindling to get things going.

:popcorn:

[Nickster]

3. Sounds good to me. Stay true to your principles.

[nickshepDEM]

4. edit

[MissWaverly]

5. Hey, You have a right to your say

I am angry with those Dems who beat us down the minute we break our lock step march, I gave
a lot to Kerry in 04 and I give every month to the Dems. We can't go around like Republican
sheeple supporting any action by someone who happens to have a (D) after their name. Blind
loyalty and winning at all costs is what has gotten us into this mess with the current administration. I say what defines a democrat is someone who believes in a fair living wage and a square deal for the American worker. I happen to like Dean, but you have a right to your opinion, I respect that.

Miss Waverly

[nickshepDEM]

7. I say what defines a democrat is...

"Someone who believes in a fair living wage and a square deal for the American worker."

I agree. And its not that I dont like Dean. I just think he's a loose cannon. When your in a leadership positon like that you cant afford to make mistakes. If he slips up next October or November it could have a very negative impact.

[MissWaverly]

8. It is interesting you should say that

I remember when Kerry debated GWB, he got the strangest look on his face when he brought
out the remark about Cheney's daughter being gay, what a gaffe and yet he deliberately
said it, I agree that we can't avoid to have "amateur hour" when it comes to our campaigns.

[Skwmom]

23. And exactly how does the DLC support this position?

The DLC has helped screw the American Worker via unfair trade agreements, the outsourcing of American jobs, etc. There is NOTHING moderate about selling out the American Worker. The DLC gives MODERATE a bad name and misuses that label.

[nickshepDEM]

31. Thats one position I disagree w/ very strongly.

[MrBenchley]

42. This is the sort of thing that just makes me roll my eyes in disgust....

American corporations are headed out of country themselves. Without a trade agreement, they are free to buccaneer at will. A trade agreement guarantees that, for example, enivironmental regulation and worker protection be extended.

You will notice that when NAFTA was debated on live television, Al Gore was for it and the guy who was the head of a major corporation was against it (and lost the debate). Evidently that wasn't a tipoff of any sort for some.

[Skwmom]

46. I suggest you read up on the trade agreements this country has entered

into with the blessing of the DLC.

[MrBenchley]

48. Been there, done that....

[skipos]

12. "We can't go around like Republican sheeple"

"supporting any action by someone who happens to have a (D)"

I don't support every action of dems, but I will always do everything I can to make sure republicans are in as few elected offices as possible, and democrats are in as many as possible. I have yet to be faced with an election where the (R) choice would be better than the (D) choice.

I am not necessarily disagreeing with your post, just adding my 2 cents.

[MissWaverly]

32. understand but corruption and incompetence in govt must go

You can't have people in power taking money from foreign governments like what is alledged
about Hastert. There has to be certain ethical standards in place. Right now, it is obivious that the republicans have thrown ethics, honesty, competency, dedication out the
window, we have a lot of cleaning and repair to do. We can't just get people in there who
will speak the republican talking points but they have a (D) after their name.

[papau]

6. Welcome to the "moderate" side - I think I am there also :-)

:applause:

but while Dean should not do policy because because that is not his job - and indeed his job is to stay out of the way and raise money - there is little leadership these days.

Many try to lead - and have great words - but the party seems unwilling to let anyone lead.

Dean taking a shot at throwing out an idea to see if folks will salute that flag, given the fact that his following the party is larger and more real than most others, does not seem all bad.

It breaks the rules and pisses off a few egos, but one tires of the usual dozen wimps.

In any case moderate fiscal, liberal social is my corner of the party. I also find that not everyone agrees with me at DU - but the conversations are fun.

Sorry that some throw out DINO, etc at you- When/if that happens to me, I just move on since time is too precious to waste on responding.

:toast:

:-)

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

9. Not moderate, have no problem with Dean

I wanted him to become the DNC chair.

The same energy that sparked our party during the last campaign season, 04, is the energy we need in leadership.

I don't see anything wrong with what he said, about it not being winnable.

I haven't heard the total context, but I don't care.

We knew who he was when he got the job.

I do wish we'd all rally behind him or other Dems when they come under fire, that being the only area that I want to see Dems speak with one voice.

I try to stay out of the DLC v. left wing Dems disputes.

[papau]

10. I also wanted Dean to become the DNC chair.- and have no problem

with his attempt to be "clear" as to policy direction.


But the orginal poster- Duer "nickshepDEM" - I believe has a point as to the job description for Dean's job - and it does not include making policy.

But there are items on which the party must present to the public a clear direction - or we get the "there is no Democratic Party alternative to what the GOP is doing" response from those looking for political leadership.

DLC v. left wing Dems is really corporate blessed moderation/direction versus direction based on basic principles - at least in my opinion.

The moderate in my moderate refers to deficits and fiscal policy. In all else I am SDS left (and indeed was one of the dozen at the SDS "formation meeting" in Boston on the Common in the spring of 63 - the folks had already "formed" SDS, and indeed had formed a Boston "group", but that was the first "put out flyers to get folks to come to a Boston meeting" meeting, as far as I know)

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

11. * has united us all into fiscal moderates, with his scary scary growing

deficit.

I don't know if that is generally considered a "moderate" position.

I just got "The Great Unraveling" by Paul Krugman and started reading the parts about Global Schmobal. Never read a book front to back.

I think that the current admin has precipitated coalitions previously unexpected. Them, with the power, money, stupidity, and then there are the rest of us.

As for the job description for DNC chair, I'm not sure if there is a formal job description.

But I definitely don't recall former chairs on either side stepping back from political, policy discussions.

Dean being Dean, what else would he do but speak out, along with his fund raising and other activities?

[AZBlue]

13. I am disappointed by the intolerance I see on DU so often

If you don't agree with someone, you are called a Republican, which is so ironic - isn't that what the Republicans do? Don't they demand that you march in step or else you'll pay the price?

Many, MANY times I find myself saying, "that's it, I'm done with DU." I just left another thread which started with a post telling everyone that they are "full of shit" if they don't think a certain way on the death penalty. Excuse me?? Let's forget about the death penalty for a moment, back up, and tell me who put them in charge and when did we outlaw someone having their own opinion??

I love debate and discussion but the childish and hateful remarks are a waste of my time. But just as I'm about to wash my hands of the whole thing, I see a post like this one and I realize that I'm not the only sane one here, that I'm not the only one who's open to other ideas and can agree to disagree. Thanks for giving me some hope!

[NuttyFluffers]

14. dude... honestly, are you sure you aren't just holding onto a label?

i mean, where's your "moderate?" according to this climate it'd actually be quite right-leaning to be moderate so are you sure you aren't just adhering to a label to feel safe? i mean, do you find yourself secretly craving to implement a nanny state upon people? or perhaps quietly condone gulags and meatgrinder wars based on lies? seriously, at this point that's all that's being offered up by centrists -- capitulation to the median at all costs eventually drags you into some unpleasant territory.

i mean... have you tried to take that "where are you on the political spectrum" tests that are all over? preferrably those with the totalitarian/libertarian y-axis? did you fall smack dab in the perfect center, or more appropriately for this country's current times, slightly leaning to the upper right, towards reactionary totalitarian? are we locking ourselves into definitions that no longer truly apply?

bah, just call yourself a 'flaming commie pinko' a few times and be done with it. the sooner you come out of the closet the easier things will be. besides, all the people who oppose you in this country now only see you in that light, might as well wear it as a badge of honor. embrace your "inner commie moonbeam;" the sooner you do so the sooner you realize that you didn't need the security blanket all this time. be free, contemplate your navel, drink lattes, barbeque squab you just finished shooting from the past afternoon. just don't give into divisive "safety scrambling" politics. in honest defiance there's real freedom.

[nickshepDEM]

24. I dont think Im holding onto the label. Its kind of hard to not think

your moderate or a dlc democrat when people here are constantly telling you that you are.

[NuttyFluffers]

51. Well, people tell me I'm from La La Land, doesn't mean I am.

oh, well, there's this passport n'all, but besides... :evilgrin:

seriously though, what's so moderate about you? so far, besides from defending a few dlc people, even though their actions seem to disagree with what you already stated you believe in, i see absolutely nothing that makes you moderate. so state it: what makes you moderate?

and no red herrings about guns 'n stuff, i've known plenty of flaming liberals who love guns -- they just don't wanna shoot others with it. hell, there used to be the LSD firing range out in the desert in some of the earliest burning mans. honestly, have you taken the test yet? most people who are flaming liberals tend to be liberal and libertarian (that whole x,y axis thing again). do as you please as long as you don't mess with me. all we ask is for sensible regulation. you can have a handgun, rifle, whatever... but you don't need a personal B1 bomber or vulcan cannon. but i'd like to be able to have my swords and blowguns back, please (currently banned/restricted in many states, unlike most firearms -- and far less dangerous). so, where's your moderate streak? craving to not only rally against violent adult oriented video games, but also against guns and stuff, too? where's the moderate?

[Nickster]

55. C'mon no one needs a Vulcan cannon, but how cool would it be to have one??

[NuttyFluffers]

56. i'd like the moon on a platter, too. a scosh cooler i think.

though, i'd have nowhere to put it... and my closets are just positively full to the brim. i guess i'll have to store it atop dick cheney's house.
:evilgrin:

ps: you're right, i always wanted to see if i could mow down the hamptons from clear across town. the trouble is evacuating all the people in time before my itchy, itchy finger gets the best of me. did i tell you my finger gets really itchy behind the controls of a vulcan cannon? :7

[madfloridian]

15. You have every right to petition for the recall of the chairman.

That is your right. I have a right to disagree with you. He is organizing from the ground up, and we need that in this party.

I do completely disagree.

[nickshepDEM]

26. I agree w/ him on that.

And that is why I supported him for DNC chair. I just think he's a little bit of a lose cannon. If he gaffes next November or December it could have a very negative impact. Especially on the candidates he campaigned with. Where we disagree is probably what I consider a 'gaffe' you consider the truth.

[Rainscents]

16. I look at it like this... For the past 5 years, Dem's set back and said

NOTTA FUCKING THING! Here comes Dean, who is willing to stand up, speak out and watching out for the little guys, guess what the fucking dem's do? Basically tell him to sit down and shut up!
If Dem's want true voice and stand up and fight, they all better start getting on the same page! This is what, Dean has been trying to work on... instead, people trashes him! Dean can't win can he? It's like, I'll be trashed if I do, I'll be trashed if I don't.

[madfloridian]

17. Now that I think about it...let's do recall. Then he can run in 08.

That's really better. :evilgrin:

[Neil Lisst]

18. OP: I agree with the gist of your post, but why a new thread?

Why isn't this part of your other thread? I don't get the need to start one thread to talk about another thread.

I agree that the whole party purity argument is tedious and unproductive. I agree that you should be able to propose dumping Dean, but it's not a RECALL. Do you remember voting in that election? No, because he can be replaced any time either he or the party wants him gone. Ain't no RECALL.

If you want Dean replaced, I would suggest you're barking up the wrong tree.

[madfloridian]

21. So he can reiterate he wants to dump Dean.

There is a lot of stuff going on in these two threads. Subtle but there.

This is actually letting us know it is going on in a wing of the party. Subtle but there.

[nickshepDEM]

27. Not true.

I just think we should leave all options on the table. I started the thread because I believed this topic deserved its own thread. Just look at some of the comments towards me in the other thread. People telling me to join the party I really want to be in? I mean, WTF? I just wanted to point out Im on the same team as everyoen else. Just wanted to raise an issue that was bothering me... Thats all.

[Neil Lisst]

29. I saw those comments, and they ARE annoying.

I'm not one to cite rules, but I believe it's one of the rules here, too - the rule not to accuse others of being Republicans or such.

When people make that argument, they LOSE the argument. They've abandoned reason and run to "oh yeah, well you've got political cooties!"

Maybe this is just a pet peeve of mine, but threads about other threads always annoy me. I suppose I should just ignore them, and if this were any other time but Saturday morning, I probably would.

[Tom Rinaldo]

30. Doesn't make sense come Novembers

for DUers to be huddled around TV's and computers worrying about which way the undecided vote will break, and whether or not we'll pick up a Senate seat in Colorado to retake the majority, and at the same time be blogging about wanting to run center of the road Democrats out of the Party.

Hell yes you are a Democrat. That doesn't mean we won't argue hard about some issues, or that I won't try to change your mind on some of them. If I think moderate democrats are too moderate, my task is to convert them, not purge them. I feel differently about a high level traitor like Zell Miller, and increasingly so about Joe Lieberman who doesn't even have a Conservative State to blame for his Bush coddling. Sometimes that's what primaries are for. I also understand that it matters a great deal who has control over the mechanics of our Party, which is one of the reasons why I strongly back Dean as DNC Chair.

[Rowdyboy]

19. Two quick points:

1) I supported Dean for party chair because I believe he is a principled man, centered, intelligent and
able to reinvent himself with the media.

2) I have no problem with anyone asking the obvious question if its time for Democrats to reconsider
that decision.

Dr Dean has been a real disappointment to me as party chair. He had a great opportunity to start over and he appears to have blown it entirely. Every act gets a a second chance in politics, but I'm afraid Howard Dean may have just blown his. Its just my opinion, its worth nothing much, but I'm really disillusioned.

[AuntPatsy]

20. Im tired of playing their game, no retreat, no surrender, its your right

to ocntinue playing it if you'd like.

[madfloridian]

22. Actually folks, there is this little thing going on in some quarters...

of the party. Dean is his own man most of the time, so that won't do. This post appears to be testing the waters.

But if they want to kick him out for not speaking properly, that frees him from promises.

[mmonk]

25. I prefer deeds to labels

[0007]

28. More of the same for supper tonight?

[MrBenchley]

33. Recall Dean was a legitimate question based on strategy, not ideology

I have grown weary of "progressive purists" who insist on demonizing this Democrat or that or the DLC and its members as DINOs, "Vichy Democrats,"etc.

At one point yesterday evening in this folder alone, among the first 20 threads, by my count there was your thread suggesting Dean should be replaced, two threads asking questions about Dean and his performance for supporters/non-supporters, five threads attacking Republicans, and THIRTEEN attacking other Democrats for being disloyal to Dean or some "progressive ideal" (including, absurdly, one asking "how many DLCbot attack threads on Dean will we have to endure?")

[nickshepDEM]

35. Thank you. At least someone knows where I was comming from.

[MrBenchley]

36. Having spent the past three days being accused

of being a warmongering neocon for pointing out that Dean flubbed the dub and was doing damage control, I know where you're coming from.

It was hilarious to be told "Dean spoke the truth and he would never waver and I stand with him and so will you unless you support the war and want Americans to die".

Then when his spokesperson began doing damage control later that afternoon. I was told that it wasn't really damage control and that anyone who said it was damage control "supports the war and want Americans to die" and was too stupid to see that it was really reinforcing what Dean had said.

Then when Dean himself did damage control, I was told in no uncertain terms that now I could be happy that Howard Dean "supports the war and want Americans to die" and besides, he was either threatened by the DLC or bribed to change his mind.

And no, I'm not kidding and can put up links to all that malarkey and more.

By the way, I thought Dean did as good a job of damage control as I've ever seen.

And for me the jury's still out on whether he should be replaced....and if even if I decided "yes" I'm not sure, right now is the time to do it.

[salin]

38. I missed these threads and posts

but given what I read during the primary wars (frankly there were similar logic-free backflips from supporters of ALL candidates - as if to support a candidate was nearly deify them ... and what you describe sounds like an extension of those days)... sorta makes me laugh.

Right now - I think Dean gets press and gives criticism and gets that into the public psyche. In the long-term shift... I think this is necessary - even if it makes for a periodic cringe worthy moment. Tell you who else is good at this... Ried. The key is being able to get media coverage - and criticize long enough for folks, who are growing disillusioned with all things bush and all things GOP, to hear so that an alternative explanation for the motivation of bushco starts to seep in.

The fact that most of the public now thinks bush INTENTIONALLY lied about the prewar intelligence... represents a HUGE shift in the public psyche. For the longest time the public conscience seemed to accept the cognitive dissonance of "no wmds, probably were never wmds" along with "bush, as pres, has our security and best intentions at heart". It was multi steps that shifted it - beginning with the DSMs - even though coverage was spotty initially ... it sunk in... then the summer of Sheehan and Plame - two very different stories - but each keeping a piece of the "the story we were told of why we went to war" in the front of the public's minds eye... and suddenly political plate tuetonic shift.

For now, Dean is playing a role that helps with this. Is he the right guy to steer us into the midterms? I don't know. But does he have an important role in the short term in prepping the public's minds eye in preparation for the midterms? So far, I think he does - but so do some other high profile dems who have shown an ability to garner media attention.

[MrBenchley]

39. And of course the problem for Chimpy and the GOP

is that they DID lie about the pre-war intelligence, and then they went about lambasting Democrats and the French for being against the war...which is why the "it wasn't us, everybody thought Saddam had 'em" tactic is falling so flat.

Sheehan was a tremendous blow to the whole facade...not because of anything she said, but because a guy whose whole persona was built around his "guts and courage and balls" was visibly terrified by a middle aged lady (and, remember, a middle aged lady who was all by herself for a couple of weeks). If he had swaggered out, fed her a load of blah in public and walked back into Rancho Corrupto, the issue would have died in the press...but because he cowered, he was seen in an eyeblink AS a coward. And once that shift took place, he was doomed...because then even if he HAD come out he would have been seen as a bully (and of course he WAS afraid to). It reminded me of the ending of "Dead Zone" when Martin Sheen's character snatches pu the tofddler to shield himself.

By the way, let's not forget Terri Schiavo--(and again, he and the GOP isolated themselves from average Americans and thought that what grieving families everywhere wanted to have was Dick Cheney, Tom Delay and Bill Frist meddling in their private affairs). George rushing back from Texas in the dead of night to sign that bill left a sour taste in the mouth for many Americans who were honestly giving him a break for not rushing into action over the "Osama determined to strike" memo.

Dean has done a powerful amount of good (and by the way, he's far to the right of many in the DLC; Business Week hailed his presidential run because he was a Rockefeller Republican at heart). I hope he can bring it home and deliver in 2006.

By the way, I suggested elsewhere that if the GOP seems to be succeeding with their "White Flag" campaign using Dean's soundbite (which remains to be seen), that the Democrats counter with a "White Feather" one showcasing the chickenhawk brigade.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2301436&mesg_id=2301541

I'd like your opinion.
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_32/b3845084.htm

[mmonk]

34. Why should we have the Neville Chamberlains

of the democratic party speak for us when we can have someone like Dean? We need people not afraid to say what the repukes are doing or what they are such as what Pelosi did with her resolution. Tell them to their face and show the public what is bad about them and their policies or put out a "real" surrender flag.

[MrBenchley]

37. Ahem...

A) Dean just fucked up badly and is running around doing damage control HIMSELF. Nor is this the first time he's opened his mouth and inserted his foot while Democratic chairman.

B) Leaving aside whether centrist Democrats are "Neville Chamberlains" (and them's fighting words, so be careful) Howard Dean is chairman of the WHOLE party and thus is supposed to speak for ALL factions, left, right and center.

C) It evidently escaped your notice that the problem is that when Howard opened his potato trap the Republicans gleefully took what he said and began running a campaign commercial using what he said. That sure as shit did more damage to the Democratic party than ANYTHING the DLC has ever done (or even all their supposed "sins" piled together.)

[mmonk]

40. Well let's make sure none of our candidates

say anything that can be used in an dishonest campaign against democrats. Let's tell all who want to complain to be quiet. Don't say anything against the war itself, just that its been mishandled but is thus, still a war to protect Americans against terrorism and to spread democracy and freedom. Let's win by not confronting the truth and let's be reasonable and appeal to that republican base if we can. Maybe then, they won't say such nasty things or run those bad commercials.

[MrBenchley]

41. Wow....

Who thinks "reasonable" is a term of derision? Probably somebody who can't realize why Howard Dean is doing damage control HIMSELF.

[mmonk]

43. Did he come up with the idea?

Frankly, I don't care what he said before or now. Democrats are missing or have missed recent opportunities crying out, "take me!" in setting the American people straight. So be it, let the repukes continue to set the agenda and let us be careful and measured in our response. They do, indeed, create their own reality and we watch.

[MrBenchley]

44. I suspect, yes, Dean knows he fucked up

without any prompting from anyone

"Democrats are missing or have missed recent opportunities crying out, "take me!" in setting the American people straight. "
Yes, clearly, all that's been missing up until now is somebody "setting the American people straight." A few magic words of, what did you call it, truth, and all our problems will be over.

By golly, why didn't I think of that? I'll have to make a note to myself on the things to do list:

1) Buy butter and eggs
2) Get stamps
3) Set the American people straight
4) Pick up dry cleaning

[mmonk]

45. Live the lies

I choose not to.

[MrBenchley]

47. You choose not to what?

[mmonk]

53. participate

in circular discussions anymore.

[Capn Sunshine]

49. I'm glad we agree on so much

So why are you battling the leadership? That seems counterproductive, and in fact lines up with the fakery Fox news is presenting of a "divided party"

Sure is distracting from the Republicans divided party issues though isn't it?

[renaissanceguy]

50. While you do have a right to what you say,

I can't help but notice that a majority of your posts since you started out here have been bashing Democratic figures and progressive sides of issues. Just pointing out the obvious.

[LSdemocrat]

52. My problem with the DLC: they (read: Al From) are politically brainless

I welcome the DLC as a legitimate faction of the Democratic Party. I subscribe to their weekly e-mails. I agree with some of their policy points, others I don't agree with.

My problem is that they are completely out of touch with political reality. Mostly their political strategy ideas come from their chairman and founder Al From. He needlessly creates intraparty battles that only help the Republicans. He attacks other Democrats just to get publicity. Americans don't want to elect people that say, I agree with my opponent on the major issues of the day, because if the like the incumbent's positions on the important issue, why would they vote for the new guy? The only reason that the DLC is so prominent is because they hitched their star to the most naturally brilliant politician of our time, Bill Clinton.

What it comes down to is not that the DLC isn't accepted by the Democratic Party, it's that the DLC often doesn't accept that they are part of the Democratic Party.

[Douglas Carpenter]

57. exactly

[AtomicKitten]

54. You go girl/sir

You are entirely entitled to your opinion. I actually like that within the Democratic Party. Sometimes it's hard to keep heated debate from spilling over into slam festivals. But the friction keeps us frisky.