Democratic leaders in House will seek to block party vote on Iraq war

[stop the bleeding]

12/05/2005 Democrats block vote on Iraq position- rawstory.com

jus read the article and I am not sure what to make of it?

[MrBenchley]

1. Good idea....

It would be suicidal to jump up and vote at this time.

[IndianaGreen]

5. That's the same logic that kept us in Vietnam for as long as we did

the only thing it accomplished was to get 58,000 names on a wall.

[MrBenchley]

10. Wow....if only we'd had you there in the sixties

to tell us what to do--we could have ended the war in 1966! (sarcasm)

[IndianaGreen]

11. I was there in the sixties!

Left the army to join SDS in order to end the war.

Et tu?

[MrBenchley]

13. It shows...

I was there...

I also remember how miserably that SDS whimsy ended up....

[IndianaGreen]

16. At least we opposed the war unlike the Dem and GOP apparatchiks

that did not have the balls to end the carnage for fear of being perceived as wimps.

Now we go through this same exercise all over again, with the same kind of people supporting another war, which is easy to do when one's ass is not the one being shot.

[MrBenchley]

17. Fifties style red-baiting! Cool!

What's next...are you going to condemn people who can see what a worthless and empty gesture this vote would be as "fellow travellers."

"that did not have the balls to end the carnage"
Yeah, that was all that kept the SDS from ending the war within a few months of the Port Huron statement.....a lack of balls.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[VegasWolf]

7. Yes! Let's pretend the 10 ton elephant in the room is invisible. nt

:sarcasm:

[Name removed]

9. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wryter2000]

8. I tend to agree

If there was any chance in hell we could prevail, I'd say "fuck politics, we have to do the right thing." However, with Congress the way it is now, there's no point voting on this. It won't bring a single soldier home. It'll just be an empty gesture.

[MrBenchley]

12. Exactly so....

Any vote by the caucus wouldn't do a damn thing to stop the war...all it would do is give the GOP a club to bash Democrats with.

Look how well the Murtha resolution worked out...in the end even Murtha had to end up voting "no", which was a terrible public embarassment and a setback toward real progress in ending the war.

[meganmonkey]

19. They never voted on MURTHA'S resolution

The resolution they voted on was a sham.

But thanks for reminding me of the talking points I am constantly trying to debunk.

[MrBenchley]

24. Why do you suppose that is?

Myself, I think it was silly of Murtha to offer a resolution that he knew would be shuffled into oblivion by the GOP leadership, especially one that could be so easily mocked and discredited.

It was a public relations debacle....but evidently some here want to see the Democrats repeat that.

[Zhade]

33. Do you support the war?

NT!

[dkofos]

2. Is the difference of opinion on the war, between the DLC dems

and real Dems??

[jsamuel]

6. well, all you have to do is look at me and MrBenchley to see

posts 1 and 3

[jsamuel]

3. In other words: Will Dems decide to lead or follow?

“Will we step out of the way and take advantage of their political problems and be successful, or will we step into the fray and make it about us and muck up a golden opportunity that hasn’t presented itself since we lost the House in 1994?”

Bullshit!

You can hold off a vote if you want, but that reasoning is bull. You can't just sit around and do nothing and expect to do well.

For example:

[MrBenchley]

15. What a silly cartoon....

When somebody is beating themselves up the only thingTO do is stand back and let it happen....getting in range of their punches gives them a chance to straighten out.

[meganmonkey]

4. Grrrr. Pisses me off.

Another high level Democratic aide tells ROLL CALL a position rallying around the Murtha stance would not only be "politically damaging" to the party, but also give Republicans ammunition against Democrats at a time when the GOP is on the defensive about its handling of the conflict

Fuck that.

The only damage that will happen from the Dems tip-toeing this issue is that MORE US SOLDIERS AND INNOCENT IRAQIS WILL DIE.

But they are more concerned with protecting their political asses than doing the right thing.

Fuck that.

:grr:

[IndianaGreen]

18. Bush, Democrats back protracted war in Iraq

Two articles from WSWS that may shed light on why "our" representatives in Congress behave the way the do:

Bush, Democrats back protracted war in Iraq

Statement of the WSWS Editorial Board
1 December 2005

The great advantage that the administration still enjoys is the support for the war from its ostensible opposition—the Democratic Party. The basic unity of the Democrats and Republicans in support of the US occupation reflects the broad pro-war consensus within the financial oligarchy, whose essential interests are defended by both parties.

Those in the political establishment and the top ranks of the US financial and corporate world understood from the outset that the purpose of the war was not to counter a terrorist threat, much less promote “democracy,” but rather to utilize overwhelming American military power to impose US hegemony over a region that contains much of the world’s oil resources. The predominant sections of this ruling elite still see the vast profits and strategic advantages over America’s economic rivals that such control would yield as worth the price being paid in blood—both American and Iraqi—as well as the $6 billion in monthly war spending.

This is what underlies the bipartisan alliance between the Democrats and Bush in support of continuing what is, in the most profound sense, a criminal war. It also accounts for the indifference of both parties to the antiwar sentiments of the majority of the American people.

This alliance found its most noxious expression in the column written by Lieberman for the Wall Street Journal’s editorial pages, the most consistent voice of the Republican right. Lieberman claimed that “real progress” is being made in Iraq as a result of the US occupation and that the US neo-colonial operation is somehow giving the Iraqi people a “modern, self-governing, self-securing nationhood.”

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/dec2005/bush-d01.shtml

US press echoes consensus in ruling elite to continue slaughter in Iraq

By Patrick Martin
3 December 2005

The American ruling elite is inextricably committed to military victory in Iraq. That is the only conclusion to be drawn from the response of the major media to Bush’s November 30 war speech.

The most prominent editorial voices of corporate America, from the ultra-right Wall Street Journal to the New York Times, the leading voice of upper-class liberalism, despite disputes over tactics and methods, agree that there is no alternative to using whatever level of violence is required for the United States to remain in control of the oil-rich Mideast country.

The December 1 editorial in the Wall Street Journal was typically unrestrained in its celebration of the war, hailing Bush’s speech as a rededication of the administration to “complete victory” and a repudiation of the growing public disaffection with the war. “Our reading of history is that the American people will accept casualties in a war, even heavy casualties, as long as they think their leaders have a strategy to win,” the Journal declared, thus announcing its approval in advance of the increased bloodletting which continued occupation will produce.

The tragic human implications of the Journal’s glib endorsement of “heavy casualties” to secure US control over the region’s oil resources were driven home on Friday, when the government announced that at least 10 Marines had been killed by a single explosion in Fallujah. Meanwhile, the US military is preparing to slaughter hundreds more Iraqis in a new offensive in Ramadi.

The Journal praised the performance of Iraqi troops in Tal Afar, when mainly Shiite forces rampaged through the predominately Sunni city near the Syrian border. It called for strengthening the interior ministry, although that agency is now believed responsible for some of the worst atrocities, including the underground torture chamber in Baghdad uncovered last week when it was raided by US troops.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/dec2005/iraq-d03.shtml

[MrBenchley]

21. The World Socialists?

So tell us, how is that Socialist Equality Party doing with the voters, anyway?

"The ICFI rests on the proud heritage of the movement founded by Leon Trotsky, co-leader with Lenin of the Russian Revolution."

http://www.wsws.org/sections/category/icfi/icfi.shtml

Ending up all but forgotten with a tack hammer in your skull is evidently a "proud heritage"....

[IndianaGreen]

22. Our Trotskyite British friends do good analysis on current issues

although their conclusions are not always on target, such as their views on the Israel/Palestine conflict.

I'll take their analysis over the "better to fight them there than here" sort of sound bites that the American public prefers to consume nowadays.

[MrBenchley]

23. So how's that party doing with voters?

"I'll take their analysis"
And you're welcome to it. Myself, I think anybody still boasting of being a Trotskyite is more than passably silly.

[IndianaGreen]

25. I hope your point of view on Iraq prevails, MrBenchley

because it will doom America to endless war!

Why is this good, in a perversed sort of way?

Each day the US stays in Iraq is a day closer to the collapse of the mighty American military. The day the military collapses from exhaustion, will be the day in which the people of the world will no longer have to fear American bombs on their cities or US Marines on their shores to secure their natural resources for America's endless appetite.

Stay in Iraq, and die... just like all colonial powers!

[MrBenchley]

26. Since you don't know what my point of view on Iraq is

that's an astonishingly funny post.

But hey, let's have a futile and worthless gesture just for the hell of it ,and then strut about clapping each other on the back because we've managed to embarrass ourselves even more thoroughly than the 403-3 vote the other day did.

By the way, I guess theTrotskyite message of peace through military weakness isn't exactly striking a chord with the American electorate.....

[IndianaGreen]

27. Democrats should have voted "present" for that vote

They are beginning to look and sound like the LBJ Democrats that even after they found out that they had been lied to about the Gulf of Tonkin "incident," they still could not bring themselves to vote for peace!

[MrBenchley]

28. Is that what the Socialist Workers would have done?

[IndianaGreen]

29. I can't speak for them, I am not a member of that party

I can only say that had we listened to people like Senator Wayne Morse, we wouldn't have a Vietnam War Memorial today with 58,000 names.

I can also say that had we listened to Dennis Kucinich, John Conyers, Russ Feingold, and a few others, we wouldn't have over 2,100 dead GIs and well over 100,000 dead civilians in Iraq, according to the Lancet Report.

On edit:

Corrected spelling.

[MrBenchley]

30. You trotted them out as an authority....

"I can also say that had we listened to Dennis Kucinich, John Conyers, Russ Feingold, and a few others, we would have over 2,100 dead GIs and well over 100,000 dead civilians in Iraq"
Uh-huh....

[IndianaGreen]

31. How about Big Z?

Zbigniew Brzezinski is emerging as the most outspoken Democratic policymaker with an unambiguous alternative. He says it is time for Washington to "bite the bullet" and withdraw U.S. troops "rapidly," no later than the end of 2006. A more prolonged disengagement would jeopardize remaining U.S. troops.

"We have to face the fact that the war is not going well and is costing us too much, not only in blood and money but also in the U.S. position in the world, discrediting our legitimacy, credibility and morality even," said Brzezinski, who was President Jimmy Carter's national security adviser.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/04/AR2005120400965.html

PS: Thanks for point out spelling error.

[MrBenchley]

32. Now show us where he's calling for a futile vote....

....by the Democratic caucus...

In fact he sounds more like these folks....

" Almost everyone agrees that the United States will begin withdrawing some troops in 2006 as Iraqi forces become increasingly capable of fighting their own battles. By signaling that the occupation is winding down, a gradual drawdown may well abet politicalefforts to bring Sunnis into the new Iraqi government; we certainly hope so. "

So tell us, siince you brought him up, what do you think of this: "Brzezinski said he would be willing to support current policy if there were more signs of success."

[mmonk]

20. Darn

I want a detailed list of the dems that support this episode in our history.

[Toots]

34. This is what pisses me off about the Democrats

Sources indicated that even though leaders will work to keep a vote off the Caucus’ agenda this week, individual members may still press for balloting on the subject. Those sources said members also may seek support for a future Caucus meeting dedicated to a vote.

Another high level Democratic aide tells ROLL CALL a position rallying around the Murtha stance would not only be "politically damaging" to the party, but also give Republicans ammunition against Democrats at a time when the GOP is on the defensive about its handling of the conflict.

“Will we step out of the way and take advantage of their political problems and be successful, or will we step into the fray and make it about us and muck up a golden opportunity that hasn’t presented itself since we lost the House in 1994?” the aide asked.

It is apparent that a lot of Democrats are more worried about Politics than about lives being lost. War is death and destruction and it needs to stop and stop now...If you are too worried about your presious political future to stand up for the good of the world then I have no sympathy when the door slaps you on the ass on the way out. Don't make the war political.... make it end....

[FtWayneBlue]

35. Tomorrow is national call-in day to stop the war -

So call in and stop it. Bring the troops home for Christmas. For our sakes as well as that of world peace. Stop war profiteering. We have better things to spend our hard-earned dollars - and irreplacable lives - on, than bush's war of aggression, occupation and empire.