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harlinchi Donating Member (954 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 09:04 AM
Original message
Anyone who protests around a military base should be clear what they...
...protest!

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/21/national/21benning.html



...Though tired, they were energized at the prospect of demonstrating outside of the gates of Fort Benning, calling for the base to close its training school for Latin American officers.

Some, including four middle schoolers from Chicago, were not yet born when massacres occurred across Central America in the 1980's, many of them carried out under the orders of people who had trained at the school.

Even so, the estimated 15,000 protesters were eager to keep alive the annual demonstration, which began in 1990 when a Roman Catholic priest of the Maryknoll order, the Rev. Roy Bourgeois, and a few of his friends staged a hunger strike outside the school to protest the murders in 1989 of six Jesuit priests and two workers in El Salvador, murders that involved 19 soldiers who had graduated from the academy.

...While the protest is largely peaceful, the locals say they have come to see it as a slap of disrespect to the soldiers from the base who are fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq. To many residents, there is no distinction between being antimilitary, calling for an end to the war or calling for the closing of the military school, the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation, once called the School of the Americas.



I saw where the annual protest against the School of the Americas in Ft Benning, Ga generated a counter-protest against it by the nearby residents. I am sorry to hear of it. Folks who protest around a military base must make clear that their protest is NOT against the members of the military. A protest against a military school, e.g., that is thought to foster the worst of non-Democratic actions committed by this country (state-sponsored terrorism, installation of puppets, death-squads, etc.) is NOT a slap in the face to members of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines or Coast Guard. Because one thinks our government shouldn't train folks in anti-Democratic, para-military actions for the benefit of the corporate interests who have always demanded and supported said actions, it does not follow that they intend to insult the PFC's, SGT's, LT's, COL's and even the BGEN's (above that, I think, things get suspect). Sergeant Somebody from Middle-of-anywhere, Wyoming shouldn't feel insulted by such a protest; he should feel praised and supported in that folks seek to prevent his use in illegal and immoral ways.

On the other hand, the first time I heard a protester call any military member a 'baby-killer' would be the time I got physically involved; that protester would have to be shut down, shouted down or beat down. That protester's actions must be considered mis-directed, at best. He might as well accuse the finger of being bloodthirsty for pulling a trigger when the mind had the thought; it would be the thought that is wrong and the mind which should be accused.

The so-called 'spread democracy' actions that involve funding parties and individuals in Latin American countries who support American corporate interests at the expense of the residents of that country would appear to be both illegal and immoral, particularly when they are taken in conjunction with the para-military actions of those trained in places like the school in Ft. Benning. Also, the occupation of a country with neither internationally accepted justification nor effective domestic support would probably be the incorrect thing to do nine times out of ten. I somehow don't think Iraq would be the tenth.

Defense is rarely illegal and seldom immoral. Puppet installation (Iran, S. Korea, S Vietnam, the various banana republics, etc.) and occupation (Iraq) are usually both.
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Neil Lisst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
1. I think such protests are ill-advised.
Protesting the military is dumb. It's the CIVILIAN leadership that we should protest. When people protest an Army base instead of their congressman's office, or the legislature, or the White House, they give Bush et al. a free pass.

Take the protest to the leaders, not the soldiers.
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harlinchi Donating Member (954 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I am not against the old 'School of the Americas' protest in itself.
That is a bad school, in my mind, no matter what they call it. I am, however, against any protest that appears to denigrate the members of our military. I'd imagine that plenty of soldiers would be against that school, if they knew what it appears to advocate.
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acmejack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Are you familiar with the School of the Americas?
It is definitely NOT DUMB to demand the closure of such an evil institution. If the SOA is unworthy of protest, then we are tacitly OKing the use and export of torture, assassination, and all our other preferred techniques of oppression.

Should we should instead be proud and support the resounding success of this long time training institute of evil?
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Neil Lisst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Like I said, take the protest to the CIVILIAN authority.
It doesn't matter what the school does, the school is a functionary of the government. Protesting at the Army location is dumb. It's a good way to (1) get arrested for a serious crime, (2) hurt, and (3) accomplish nothing positive.

Some on our side are more interested in offending than in accomplishing. If we want to end practices, it's the elected officials who might respond, not the military.

Protests at military installations do not accomplish their stated goals.

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acmejack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. I agree that the Civilian authorities should take care of it.
Those civilian authorities have ignored years of pleading. I think the idea is to try to attract attention to the cause. Rightly or wrongly, these people have been driven to protest there.

No one is interested in offending, but shutting up and staying home is not acceptable either. Wonder if any of the racists were offended by MLK?
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
4. I doubt the counter-protests are in any way spontaneous
That kind of thing is COINTELPRO's meat and drink. Phone a few hotheads and ask them why they aren't out there 'defending our troops' and out the door they go with mis-spelt signs and no personal history of service, away to defend the indefensible from the peaceful.

The soldiers at those places are complicit.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
6. So the military never kills babies?
Wow, back in the 70s again, where the national myth of redemptive violence thrives and lives: "the first time I heard a protester call any military member a 'baby-killer' would be the time I got physically involved; that protester would have to be shut down, shouted down or beat down."

If you think beating me down would bring dead babies back to life in Kama Aido, Fallujah or anywhere else our troops have targeted and killed civilians, I guess you're welcome to do it. But don't expect me to deny the evidence before my eyes, and don't expect me to excuse murder just because the perpetrator happens to be wearing a uniform.
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BL611 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Yes you're right
the military loves killing babies, thats why most people join, not to serve their country, or for the GI Bill, or for health insurance, but to kill babies, brilliant, wonderful, and then you blame the media when the Republicans wind up controlling all branches of the federal government...
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LandOLincoln Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Thank you for a brilliant (and true) bit of snark. n/t
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harlinchi Donating Member (954 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. On the other hand, if you think a PFC has any choice in...
...the matter of his deployment short of jail, you're welcome to that. I just don't think alienating military families and the members themselves will be productive. I think some of you know such alienation will ensue, expect it and consider your job well-done when it occurs.

If I had been deployed, served honorable (to the extent that's possible) and returned to cat-calls of baby-killer, my political position would not be aligned with those who call me such names. Why, in our protests, must we demonize the military? Don't you wonder how the GOP is mistakenly said to be the party of the military? It's somewhat easier to account for murder (if, indeed, that's what it is) committed by a PFC or SPC at the orders of a SFC, decided in events which occur in a 2-second time span, than it is to excuse the leaders who orchestrate such events.
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guidod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
9. I was in the Military in the 60's
All of this talk is so familiar. Will we ever learn? Even if our talking points are right on it will hit a deep embedded nerve on the other side. Protesting war is very difficult.
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