This year's "Weird Liberal" Thanksgiving talking points

[underpants]

Are you the "weird/crazed liberal" in your family or Thanksgiving Day group?* Are you surround by truly MAD conservatives? For some reason is politics talked about at your Thanksgiving celebration?

If any of these apply to you please use this opportunity to discuss talking points that you are likely to face AND facts/talking points/perspectives you find useful against such "conventional wisdom" (psst they really hate thinking that they are the conventional wisdom .....although you know some people say.....)

*-you probably aren't- We DO outnumber them.

Okay let's start with THREE that I have run into in my recent extensive research deep into the jungles of the angry victims of societal and governmental oppressed of the white (Protestant) male.

TAXES- Yep the old stand by is still here. They pay taxes and they don't like...they center their life around not liking it. Typically at least one person will have their flat tax lines ready ("Boortz" is a code word here) as well as their "welfare" line and the "They only thing I ever qualified for was to PAY taxes"
----The easy counters here are the big picture----
--No one ever said you had to go out and be as successful as you have been. Why don't you try and see how great it is to live off "welfare" for a while.
--YOU AND I are getting ripped off not from the bottom but from the top! When was the last time Texaco paid any taxes? You are falling for the old shell game. and so forth

Here's one I have run into recently so heads up
We DID find WMD in Iraq
Two main points here for them.
1.Remember that pallet of 12 or so OLD artillery shells the Dutch troops found a couple of years ago? Well they do. That is their WMD proof (they were unfireable and these HAD been WMD in the distant past-this would be a good opportunity to bring up "WMD shelf life" which you can look up on the internets)
2.Several dual use facilities WERE found. They can't name anyWHERE that this might be true but trust me they are sure of it. When confronted they like to go with the "OH COME ON!!!" matter of fact BS...I like to counter with a "OH COME ON!! Why hasn't Fox News still covering it then??? (this would be a great place to work in criticism of MSM even though they would buy it and use the same line about Fox News for the supposed "good news" in Iraq)

Lastly this one works with topic ONE

RACISM I have heard the "N" word dropped more recently than in the last ten years. This appears to stem from Katrina and is a great diversion for them away from any criticism of his holiness Bush. "Mayor Nagin" is code here folks. Take the high road here and when "welfare" (yes that isn't even really code anymore is it?) tell them that Clinton ended welfare in '96 and then sit back and watch the head explode.

Good luck and remember that this is Thanksgiving-first celebrated at the Berkeley plantation in Virginia home of the Jamestown settlement. The "first permanent English settlement in the New World"--look that one up....psst the Spaniards were here first and in fact dominated the East Coast at the time (they will NEVER see that one coming). If anyone starts off with "The REAL first Thanksgiving" they are actual dittoheads so be weary of them too.

Spaniards in Tennessee in the 16th Century
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/11/1122_041122_spanish_fort.html

"Welfare" as we now know it
http://www.urban.org/publications/307034.html

http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/issueguide_welfare_facts

[TallahasseeGrannie]

1. We don't talk politics at family gatherings

Period. Ever.

[WePurrsevere]

7. Agreed. Unless you're all of the same mindset & even then you're taking...

a chance. IMO that's not what the upcoming holidays are about. Save your battles for another day, enjoy the meal and avoid indigestion.

Besides... with most that are still pro-Bush Admin it's like "trying to teach a pig to sing...". ;)

[ramapodem]

2. What do you do ......

with the crazy conservative uncle?

[underpants]

4. Which one?

I am surrounded.

Welcome to DU :hi:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

8. We water down his wine

and we say firmly: NO POLITICS, UNCLE IDIOT! How did your garden do this summer?

Or I have learned, when faced with breathless assertions of idiocy, to say: "You know, I never thought of that." That's all. You don't agree, you don't disagree. They feel brilliant. Then you ask Aunt DumbDummy whether she puts pecans in her stuffing.

[ellie]

3. Except for my one

brother, who says he is a Republican but has the same views I do on things (?), my entire family is filled with liberals, thanks to my socialist dad. I expect a Thanksgiving filled with vitriol against the current occupant of the White House.

[underpants]

5. Sounds nice

We are hosting this year and my father-in-law is a Dem. Should be a good year.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

6. Wing nuts, if they are allowed in my house at all

are not allowed to speak, even if they get upset at the picture of Laura and Doofus taped to the bottom of my toilet seat lid. Trickle down indeed!

[abluelady]

9. I too Use that One

"Why don't you try and see how great it is to live off "welfare" for a while."

Actually I ask them do you think those living at the bottom who "milk" the system live better than you do? That usually stops them. Then I talk about all the rich older folks who "hide" their money so when they have to go into a nursing home they can qualify for Medicaid. That tends to stop them in their tracks. Everyone knows someone who has done that.

[jbnow]

10. There are work requirements for welfare

for all able bodied. Here they start for a single parent when an infant is 3 months old! As someone mentioned earlier Clinton started that in 96. Then someone getting aid had to be in work or training 20 hours per week.

Bush raised it to 30 and then to 40 hours per week and made more of it be paid work. Great job market to do this in. Imagine having to shuffle kids into day care and juggle 2 or 3 part time jobs.
Instead of being able to get 12 months of training now they can get 3 months of training in any year.
There are sanctions for failing to meet this.

Welfare just isn't what it use to be and not even what it should be.

[SpiralHawk]

11. Thanksgiving first celebrated here about 40,000 years ago

The colonial invaders who stole the land from the "insurgenets" in Virginia were a bunch of Johnny Come Latelys to the Thanksgiving ritual.

[ComerPerro]

12. Taxes: When they suggest a flat tax

Provide them an example of a Progressive tax. There have been many proposals, and from them figures have been generated that could provide the necessary revenue. Such tables can be found on the internets.

And make sure to explain it to them.

When you say, "The first $40k is tax exempt, anything from $40k to $80 K its taxed at 25%, etc.", make sure they understand. Their first reflex will be to say "So whats the incentive to make $80K if I can pay so much less with just $79,999?" They say this because they have been conditioned to think this way by the right wing. BS talking points like "Progressive taxes cut incentive to make more money" and shit like that. So explain to them that if they make $79,999, they will be taxed at 25% for $39,999 of it, since the first $40k is tax exempt. And if they earn an extra $2 and are bumped up to $80,001, they will be taxed at 25% for $40k, and their new burden will be adjusted to include the extra $1, taxed at 30%.

Of course, those aren't exactly the numbers, its just an example based on a progressive tax model.


And, then, when they mention the "fair tax" or "consumption tax", that's even easier to refute. Ask them if they would enjoy paying 140% of the retail price for every purchase they make.

[underpants]

13. Well said-great example

:thumbsup:

[ComerPerro]

14. The best way to wake people up is to set them straight

and help them reason and sort through the BS and disinformation.

Then, if they are open minded and even halfway intelligent, they will start to look into things for themselves and find out how damaging Republican policies can be for the average American.

However, if they continue to argue and contest your points, then chances are that they are too far gone and will be Bush loyalists for the rest of their lives.

[MADem]

15. Hell, tell 'em the monkey coulda given them a BIGGER tax cut if we did not

have to pay for Iraq...and we will be paying for it, for YEARS!!