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Does the far left have to win more elections to prove they are right?

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 05:39 PM
Original message
Does the far left have to win more elections to prove they are right?

Just what does it mean that the country hasn't embraced candidates who are seen as far-left in presidential elections. What does it say about their argument? Can the far-left convince the rest of us of the rightness of their argument and the worth of their candidates with the dismal record of success statewide and in presidential contests?

I realize that in the House there is a sizable contingent of far-left representatives. But not in the Senate.

What does it say about the message of the far-right since they have trouble electing candidates statewide or nationally?

I think what the voters decide matters. I believe the fact that these far-left candidates don't get elected is a reflection on the popularity of their message. That's why I am baffled by the claim that they would do better than more centrist candidates in the general election. Where is the evidence of that?

Hasn't the far-left movement failed so far in converting the majority of the electorate? Or does it matter at all that their message doesn't seem to produce a majority of votes?

Or am I wrong about this?
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. Denis Kucinich
is a hero! If he is considered the "far left" then so be it. For me as a European liberal he would be a more moderate then on any extreme. But I guess when even the left moves to the right as in the USA that bounds to happen. Happily not so in Europe... ;)
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. So you think that the country has been moved right
by concessions from the elected left. They sold out and the country caved by their lead.

Sorry about the far-left label. It's hard to distinguish folks I consider merely liberal from the principles expressed by those who advocate a move from center to the left. Maybe that's the problem. The elected 'left' makes compromises that blurs the distinctions between their principles and promotes the aims of those seeking the center.
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danp Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. What I want to know is how come
the right wingers get to run on their full platform, but in order for the LEFT to win, we have to "compromise" and come to the center?
We don't have to be ashamed of our ideology; we should embrace it, because that sends a message. Energizing the base is more important than pandering to the center, because trying to look centrist comes across as weak, while standing up for what you believe conveys strength. Why should the centrist voters be comfortable with us if we aren't even comfortable with ourselves? This election won't be about getting the people who vote to agree with us - it will be about getting the people who agree with us to vote. Mark my words.
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Bill McBlueState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Welcome to DU, danp!
kick-ass first post!

:toast:

I know plenty of people who protest their butts off but don't make a point of voting. If all the people who marched against the war last year would vote with that in mind, things would change real quick around here.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #8
19. Welcome to DU danp!

I am chewing on your thoughtful post.

"This election won't be about getting the people who vote to agree with us - it will be about getting the people who agree with us to vote."

I've always felt this way. I'm usually disappointed by the low numbers that do respond.
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_Jumper_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. They do move to the center too
Although they do it to a lesser extent since 2/5 of Americans are conservatives and less than 1/5 are liberals. The far left is probably in single digits.
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
27. Welcome-- very well put!
It seems like nobody even READS the platform anymore. It's really quite liberal in its philosophy, and quite in line with how most Americans view the government. Unfortunatly, we keep picking these Melvin Milquetoast "moderates" who DO NOT reflect the views and message of the party-- and that's why we continue to get creamed at the polls.

It's awfully hard to get our base excited about a candidate who doesn't even reflect our views as a party. Hence the low turnout, and the losses.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. How much of that idealism in the platform actually gets enacted

in our system of compromise?
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #6
49. Hi danp!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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Sam Lowry Donating Member (147 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
2. No, you're right
Political extremism on either side is dead in the water. It's what makes the U.S. system of representative democracy better than the parliamentary ones seen in Europe. Who wants fascist- and communist-leaning members of Congress? Is there utility in this?
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jsw_81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
3. The far-left has NEVER won an election in this country
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. We have no obligation to rescue capitalism from its own demise
Edited on Thu Jan-29-04 05:58 PM by IndianaGreen
The illusion of democracy, which is what we are being presented with in the 2004 Elections, is just that, an illusion.

What have Socialists to do with Capitalist wars?

In war as in peace, we are a party of opposition, not a party of power. In that way we can also most surely serve that part of our task which war outlines so sharply, the work of national independence. The Social Democracy cannot let the fate of any nation, whether its own or another nation, depend upon military successes. In throwing upon the capitalist state the responsibility for the method by which it protects its independence, that is, the violation of the independence of other states, the Socia Democracy lays the cornerstone of true national independence in th consciousness of the masses of all nations. By preserving and developing the international solidarity of the workers, we secure the independence of the nation—and make it independent of the calibre of cannons.

Leon Trotsky’s
The War and the International

http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1914-war/part2.htm#CHAPTERVI
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Sam Lowry Donating Member (147 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. Hoo hoo!
I wanted to say that, but I didn't think it was my place!
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Sam Lowry Donating Member (147 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. Aw, snap
I guess that was over the line.

I am chastened.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. In what form do your principles translate into policy without a position
in government to effect those ideals? How do you think you influence the nation's agenda? Or do you? Are you still on the outside of the system or does your message translate into policy anywhere? Show me, please how you think your movement has influenced public policy? (I'm not being facetious)
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rpf113 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
4. Only extremists want extremsits.
And they will insist that they know for a fact that everybody else in the country needs to have their personal political ideology rammed down their throats. We saw it in 2000 from Nader supporters, and now to a certain extent from Kucinich and Dean supporters.

They're like the Republicans that bolted to Buchanan in the 1992 elections. Ideological puritans who don't care about electability. No matter how little sense this will ever make, they will always be out there, and they will always be posting on the DU.
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el_gato Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
20. of course those who fetishize electibility especially
when it is defined by the parameters put in place by the corporate establishment will play the role of handmaidens to the complete destruction of freedom and democracy

Look at the trajectory our the U.S. has been on for the past 30 years.

These elections are nothing but a fig leaf and the politicians are just window dressing.

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. But our vote still counts doesn't it?
Edited on Thu Jan-29-04 07:13 PM by bigtree
What does the voter's choice say about the durability of the less popular candidate's issues? Does electability trump ideology in national campaigns? How does the left get its point of view translated into policy without Senate seats or the presidency to effect that ideology.?


edit:punctu
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el_gato Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. anyone who even remotely challeges the elite is systematically eliminated

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. By the voters, right?
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el_gato Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. no not by the voters

your vote doesn't count

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. el_gato, I am in earnest

Why doesn't my vote count?
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Broken Donating Member (51 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #20
34. .....
I agree.
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nancyharris Donating Member (637 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
12. The truth is:
Today’s far left is tomorrow’s political center. The way to move the whole country to the left is to give credence to those considered “far left” because slowly those progressive values become part of the mainstream.

10 years ago anyone who favored civil unions would have been considered a leftist wacko.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. This rings true

The election of Bill Clinton moved the Democrat's political debate to the right. I guess that's what leadership is all about. What does it say about the left movement though who hasn't been able to find a candidate to carry that message nationally?

I realize that Rep. Kucinich is still pushing ahead, but why hasn't he or others on the left, so far, been able to convert more of the electorate to their way of thinking?
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JasonBerry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Unfortunately
Unfortunately, many still are. I am a leftist in a land of centrists. I know this and accept it. The answer is not to try to win at the top. It is to win from the bottom up. To nominate a Kucinich -at this time- would be fatal for the leftist ideals I hold dear. That's reality!
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
13. I'm confused about a few things
first of all, I assume you meant "far-left" in this statement?:
"What does it say about the message of the far-right since they have trouble electing candidates statewide or nationally?"

second, assuming you are correct, why would we nominate John Kerry if, as so many on here want us to believe, he is the most liberal candidate in the race?

Something does not compute.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. John Kerry seems to be running a centrist campaign
But he has a record of supporting 'liberal' issues. I suspect though that most on the left would not call him kin.
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Speaking only for myself, you suspect correctly.
John Kerry will not support any "liberal" issue that would endanger his position as a senator or a presidential candidate.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
28. The best way to gauge this
is to switch to a ranked voting system. That way folks will truly check off the candidate they MOST want to win rather than the one they GUESS can win.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. I'm not familiar with this
?
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Click on the link in my sig
to get more info on some different types of ranked voting. :)
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. That's easy

Thanks! :hi:
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Any time
Thanks for having a look-see. :)

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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
35. Because people listen to bull** snarl words--
--instead of looking at policies. 'Far left' policies are actually pretty popular.

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2003/september/aljazeerah_reports_r.php

Pew foundation poll--

Fully 72% of Americans agree that the government should provide universal health care, even if it means repealing most tax cuts passed since Bush took office. Democrats overwhelmingly favor this proposal (86%-11%) and independents largely agree (78%-19%). Even a narrow majority of Republicans (51%) favor providing health insurance for all even if it means canceling the tax cuts, while 44% disagree.

51% of fawking Republicans?? How mainstream is that?


http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Iraq/press_12_03.pdf

70% say UN should lead reconstruction of Iraq, that the war has not reduced the threat of terrorism, that pursuing Al Qaeda is more important.

http://www.tompaine.com/op_ads/opad.cfm/ID/6727

GOP candidates who favor privatization might have encouraged a debate on specific plans, put forward by their sitting president, for diverting Social Security taxes and cutting benefits in order to fund private stock market accounts.

Did they? No. Consultants said they would suffer at the polls if they did. So GOP candidates everywhere dodged, flip-flopped and just plain lied to convince voters that they’re NOT for privatizing Social Security. "Conservative politicians with long and specific records of support for Social Security privatization suddenly decided to denounce the whole idea," write Roger Hickey,

http://www.icrsurvey.com/ICRInTheNews/ABC_BigCorps.html

60-70% think corporations have too much power

http://www.aflcio.org/yourjobeconomy/minimumwage/americanssupport.cfm

70-80% think minimum wage should be increased.

http://www.americans-world.org/digest/global_issues/intertrade/lowsupport.cfm

When NBC News/Wall Street Journal asked the same question in October 1997, 35% supported the idea and 56% opposed it. In August 1998, Market Strategies found 36% in favor of fast track, with 58% opposed. That same month, in a poll by President Clinton's pollsters, Penn and Schoen, 38% said the president "should be given fast track negotiating authority," but 53% opposed the idea.

In addition, poll questions that ask specifically about incorporating environmental standards find very strong support. In a June 2002 CCFR poll, an overwhelming majority of 94% said that countries that are part of international trade agreements should be “required to maintain minimum standards for protection of the environment.” <1a>

In November 2000, a poll by the Tarrance Group and Greenberg Quinlan Research presented respondents with two statements on the issue. More than 3 in 5 (62%) chose the one that said, "Future trade agreements should contain safeguards that require the US (United States) and other countries to enforce strong environmental protections, even if it limits trade."


http://www.pipa.org/whatsnew/html/new_1_15_04.html#1

Steven Kull, director of PIPA, comments, "Clearly, US policy on farm subsidies is far out of step with the preferences of the American public. The vast majority of US subsidies go to large farming businesses on a regular annual basis, while only 1 in 10 Americans approves of this."

http://www.americans-world.org/digest/global_issues/biotechnology/biotech3.cfm

In recent surveys an overwhelming majority has held that GM foods should be labeled as genetically modified. Most recently, a June 2001 ABC News survey found that a near-unanimous 93% felt that "the federal government should...require labels on food saying whether or not it has been genetically modified or bio-engineered."

http://www.norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=4420

A solid majority of the American public now agree with NORML that responsible marijuana smokers should not be treated like criminals. Eight out of ten Americans support the medical use of marijuana, and nearly 3 out of 4 Americans support a fine-only (no jail) for recreational smokers. And while a majority of Americans continue to oppose the legalization of marijuana, 40% now support legalizing small amounts. Overall, this is the highest level of public support we have ever experienced, and our challenge now is to convert this public support into public policy.
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ThirdWheelLegend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Great links and info, to understand why we BELIEVE different...
Read more on Manufactured Consent.

We use to make fun of the Russians because they had Pravda..

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Herman%20/Manufac_Consent_Prop_Model.html

This is a great intorduction to understanding perception in a 'democracy'. Also remember that this was written in 1988, the concentration of power and media is tenfold worse today, if not more.

TWL
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Devil in the Details
Edited on Thu Jan-29-04 10:54 PM by Nederland
Fully 72% of Americans agree that the government should provide universal health care

Sure, until you actually start describing a specific implementation. Once you get into the nitty gritty details of such a system, support plummets. I realize that nearly 50 million people in this country are without health insurance, but you need to realize that also means there are 230 million people in this country with health insurance. Of that 230 million people, 85% are satified with the care they recieve. That makes it extraordinarily difficult to come up with a system that those happy people will view as being, at the very least, comparable. Chances are very good that you will come up with a system that is less appealing to large segments of the population than what they already have.

I'm not saying its impossible, I'm just saying its very very difficult. We all remember how some of the country's smartest people tried to come up with a system at the start of the Clinton adminstration and failed miserably.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Clinton did NOT propose universal health care!
He proposed pouring huge amounts of public money into the pockets of large private insurance companies to pretty please beg them to insure more people.

You are right that selling people on the issue requires talking to people who are not likely to ever get expensively sick. That is most of us, unfortunately. But then on the other hand, most of us will never have house fires, yet we have to pay property taxes for the fire department anyway. I think we can win on this if we reframe health care as infrastructure. (I'll repost my essay on this, as things move so fast here that I can rarely find old threads to link to.)


Arguing about health care
eridani@scn.org (pass along freely with attribution)

Effectively convincing people who haven't spent much time thinking about health care policy requires countering the blather that the likes of Harry and Louise have been using to make people in the US afraid that however bad the current situation is, change is too scary and government is bad anyway. The market is good, no matter what problem you are addressing. A way to effectively counter this attitude occurred to me after listening to Dennis Kucinich speak in Seattle. Talking about his universal health care plan, he said, "The market has failed!" three times, with an invitation to the crowd to join in, which people mostly did. He was, of course, preaching to the choir. This is a slogan that will cut no ice with the "market good, government bad" crowd, and it caused me to think about the various ways in which it could be taken.

Obviously, what Kucinich meant was that the market has failed to deliver health care, but the statement taken plain could also be seen to refer to markets in general. In that case, anyone who bought a computer ten years ago and has upgraded recently (and who almost certainly doesn't spend any time on being a health care policy wonk) is going to think "What on earth is this idiot ranting about?"

Clearly the markets for health care and the market for computers are pretty different. If you ask free market believers what governments should be doing, they will often say something like "Roads and police and firefighting are legitimate government occupations because that is infrastructure." What we need to do is to present a good case that health care is infrastructure too. Almost no one will argue that government should have no role in creating and maintaining infrastructure, other than a few Libertarian hard cases whose arguments are ignored by average citizens anyway. Health insurance paid for by individual is extremely expensive, and people who pay that way commonly feel ripped off because after they pay, they never see a penny of it. But if health care is infrastructure, it is analogous to police and fire protection. These services are also expensive, but do people feel that if their houses don't burn down and they don't get assaulted or robbed, the property taxes paying for these services are a ripoff? Should the expenses for these services be paid only by the people who are immediately served by them? Obviously not.

The slogan "Health care is infrastructure" beats "Health care is a right" as well. The latter makes people think of endlessly inflating entitlements that will drive the country into bankruptcy and still not satisfy everyone. Saying that health care is infrastructure not only directly and inevitably implies that health care is a right, but it gets people thinking about the issue in the most productive manner, namely as active citizens responsible for helping to determine public policy.

The reality is that health care providers and firefighters are very similar in an economic sense. Computer makers want to sell more computers, and people always want more memory, more bandwidth and more speed, but people would rather not get sick and rather not have their houses burn, but want effective help fast should those things happen. Imagine a city with three or four fire departments, paid for by dozens of different employer insurance schemes plus a few subsidized plans for the poor which a lot of low income people earn too much money to qualify for. A real mess, right? The firefighting equipment has to be duplicated several times, and the private insurance is always shifting around with employment patterns. ("Whaddya mean you won't send a truck out? My employer turned in the new insurance paperwork last week!" "I'm sorry sir, but you must still be with Company X. We don't have you in our records.") And you'd also have a bunch of sorryass parasites sitting around trying to calculate which zip codes are likely to have the most fires, so they can stick their unlucky inhabitants with higher fees. Also each company would adjust prices dramatically upward to include profits as well.

Since no city in real life is actually stupid enough to have several different fire departments, there is no way of comparing that hypothetical situation with the current state of affairs in the provision of health care. But this was not always the case. There used to be private fire departments, and markers designating fire protection eligibility can still be found in antique shops. If your neighbor's house caught fire from the cinders of your fire, your personal firefighting service would just let the other house burn. If there was a dispute about coverage, competing services would often spray more water on each other than on the fire. Before the revolutionary war, that well-known commie rat bastard Benjamin Franklin put a stop to this practice with America's first public fire department in Philadelphia.)

We do know what happens to health care prices in towns with more than one hospital compared to towns of similar size with only one hospital-namely that the more hospitals, the more expensive health care is. And it's perfectly obvious why-if you think about the proper economic analogy, namely that of the fire department. And it's exactly the opposite of what happens with restaurants, barbers and computer manufacturers-more of those means better and cheaper products and services. Since firefighting is paid for as a public investment, they'll go to a house of $100,000 assessed valuation just as rapidly as one with a million dollar valuation, even though the property taxes are higher in the latter case. People in wealthy areas may have some overall service advantages, but the difference is trivial compared to the difference between people with and without health insurance. In addition, the fees would be jacked up even higher to include as much profit as possible.

Competition actually degrades performance directly as well. The single most important factor in determining your chances of surviving a complex operation is the number of those operations previously performed in that hospital. Divide the number of operations by the number of similar facilities in town, and you have calculated the relative incompetence factor. The same goes for firefighters-they keep their skills up by practicing on buildings slated for demolition that have been set on fire, or on fire towers which have serious restrictions as to where they can be located. Therefore there are limited numbers of these, and dividing them up among competing departments would mean that everyone would have lower skill levels. Compare this with computers, where sales and product improvement efforts mean more computers are made and sold. Somehow you just can't sell people on the virtues of having more heart attacks and house fires, so more competitors means less real life practice for everyone.

In one respect, public payment for health insurance is more like paying for roads than firefighters. Just as roadbuilding is paid for by the public but almost always contracted out to private outfits, medical providers would continue to be private operators even though publicly financed. Road maintenance is done by both public and private employees-how you decide between the two options is by putting the matter up to public debate and arguing about it.(This is called "activism" these days, although it used to be just plain old "citizenship.")

That firefighting is a public business leads to putting arguments of how to pay for it in the public venue. Service providers will always want to do less work for more money, and service recipients want more service for less money. No conceivable social arrangement can alter that basic fact of life. What happens is that unions and professional organizations argue about the solutions in public, bond issues and tax rates are proposed, and everybody comes to a compromise arrangement. And there is no reason to think that the same process won't work with health care providers. You can't cover everything and pay everyone what s/he thinks s/he deserves, so you put all the arguments on the public table and come up with a compromise.

And this segues into other public policy areas as well. In the case of firefighting, there are building codes and enforcement to argue about, fire safety and extinguisher training, smoke alarm requirements, etc. In the case of health, there is urban design (making walking and biking easier, for instance), health education and awareness, arguing about how to evaluate various technologies for proven results, etc. By comparison, making matters of computer design subject to this kind of public dispute would be unbelievably stupid.

And finally there is the question of how do we afford single payer. Establishment opinion says that the Kucinich proposal is outrageously expensive compared to the proposals of other candidates. Of course they fail to mention that we would no longer have private insurance expenses, that out of pocked expenses would be dramatically reduced, and that we would continue to have the government funding that we now have. The fact is that we are already paying for universal health care-we just aren't getting it. Suppose your electric bill is $400 and you don't have that much. And suppose that you check your back yard and find out that someone is tapping into the line between the power provider and your house, siphoning off as much as they can get by with. All of a sudden the fact that you don't have $400 isn't the main problem any more.

The health care plans of all the other candidates (note that Sharpton and Braun just advocate single payer--they have no specific plans posted on their sites) are in fact more expensive than that of Kucinich, because they all assume that we continue to spend what we are already spending, but should add more to that total in order to further subsidize private insurance companies, who would continue to drain off funds in the pipeline flowing from the public to health care providers. For those who like equations, those plans would cost out as

Total proposed health care spending = Current spending + incremental proposal extra expenses - x, where x is whatever unknown amount of savings would be produced by the plan. (Extending preventive care, no matter how incrementally, can be expected to produce some saving.)

Kucinich plan = current spending only - x.

So remember boys and girls-HEALTH CARE IS INFRASTRUCTURE!

For a nice analysis of Canadian Single Payer with references, see below.

http://www.geocities.com/stewjackmail/pdf/uhc-canus.pdf

A note on cost control--an analogy is controlling the movements of a herd of cattle. You can do the sensible thing and build a fence around them, allowing them to move freely within the confines, or you can hire a passle of cowpokes with sets of reins controlling each cow individually. The former is what Canadians do with global budgeting, and the latter is what HMOs and insurance companies do in the US. It's obvious which system gives providers and patients the most choice.
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dawgman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
38. The rest of the first and second worlds are heavily represented by the
"far left." If you ask me the far right and center need to win some more outside our puritanical leaning country to prove that they are right.
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arewethereyet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-04 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
40. whoa up there bigtree
you say that the Senate is light on libs and in the next sentence claim that the right has trouble electing candidates statewide and nationally.

those two statements are mutually exclusive.

But you are correct to note that far-left candidates clearly do not resonate with America in general and are unelectable.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. i meant to say left . noticed it late and couldn't edit
sorry x(
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John_H Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
41. Isn't that how politcs should work?
I will grant you that the media whores will always try to make mincemeat out of any candidate left of, say, Kerry for any major race.

But certainly the far far left would be able to muster more than one or two percent despite the media if the message were resonating, right?

I think it's up to the far left to get as much as what they can through compromise, because they don't seem to have the politcal juice at the moment.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. No--absolutely not.
The far right has gotten as much as they have gotten because they refuse to compromise until they have to. They don't open their bidding on any issue with the wussiest possible compromise.
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John_H Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #43
46. The far right controls the GOP because of Jesus
The invoke the name of God to get what they want, and since the GOp would be toast without the votes the Christian right gets them in the south, they give in.

Since the far left does not have a divine being with whom to threaten wrath upon those who would oppose them, I still suggest they compromise.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. Amen

Night!
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #41
45. Compromise

Don't the principles get blurred in that atmosphere? Doesn't that blurring compromise the principles of the left in the political system, especially since they are in the minority.

It's almost impossible to keep your principles intact and still be effective in Congress.

Must the left resign itself to the bully pulpit? Can the far left ever dominate in our system?
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Iverson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 06:03 AM
Response to Reply #45
48. I don't think that dominating is the point.
My impression is that the far left wants to be heard by its supposed allies and maybe get some of its favorite issues addressed.

Being told, in effect, to shut up and vote for a conservative (or a moderate) is a far cry from that.
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George_Bonanza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
44. I think a lot of conservatives are put off by Bush's extremism
So the Right DOES have to pander to the centre as well.
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