Reminder on Clark:

[robbedvoter]

" seems to be preoccupied, and I'm quoting now, with building legitimacy, with exhausting all diplomatic remedies...  So I think General Clark simply doesn't want to see us use military force and he has thrown out as many reasons as he can develop to that but the bottom line is he just doesn't want to take action. He wants to wait."
Richard Perle, Iraq war-mongerer, before congress Sept. 26, 2002
****
But as General Wes Clark, former Supreme Commander of Allied Forces in Europe has recently noted, a premature go-it-alone invasion of Iraq "would super-charge recruiting for Al Qaida."
Paul Wellstone
http://www.wellstoneaction.org/news/news_detail.aspx?itemID=1865&catID=298
****
"There are a lot of good Democrats in this race, but Wes Clark is the best Democrat."
Sen. George McGovern
http://clark04.com/press/release/193/
****
I believe that Wesley Clark will end this war. He will make the rich pay their fair share of taxes. He will stand up for the rights of women, African Americans, and the working people of this country.
And he will cream George W. Bush.'"
Michael Moore


****

 He's running for president, and he is not used to losing.  And if he gets the nomination, he'll go up and down this country and beat on President Bush like a drum.  He'll do 2,000 yards every morning; he'll rappel down any cliff he needs to; he will shake off any small-arms fire as if it were a swarm of gnats.  And he'll get better at the game each and every day.
He hates to lose.  And he doesn't run from fights.
And even if he's never played the game, he's never a beginner at anything.
Dismissed."

[abburdlen]

1. Oh Please

Can you point me to a link with a better copy of the ad? I will print 200 copies and send them to SC

[democratreformed]

3. I'll look for you

Just give me a little time (meaning don't give up) - I'm at work.

[democratreformed]

5. Only one I can find:

You might try one and see how it turns out.

Link: http://home.comcast.net/~brianmcw/negate2.jpg

Gosh, I see it put the pic on here instead of the link

Try again:  home.comcast.net/~brianmcw/negate2.jpg  Put
http:// in front of this.  I left it off so it wouldn't post
the pic again.

[abburdlen]

6. I'll try

cleaning it up.

If it comes out any better I'll post a link

[Bolo Boffin]

7. If you click the Message format button above the posting window...

...the html will print, not the picture. Like this:

http://home.comcast.net/~brianmcw/negate2.jpg

[democratreformed]

11. Thanks for the posting help

I am still semi-illiterate when it comes to certain stuff.

[Dark Star]

2. Thanks especially

for the Wellstone reminder...:pals:

What a ticket that would have been: Clark/Wellstone... :loveya:

[Casablanca]

4. More reminders on Clark

He's my second choice behind Dean, and the only one apart from Dean that can effectively make the Iraq war a campaign issue.

However:

1. Clark openly and consistently supports a flag burning amendment to the Constitution.

2. Clark openly and consistently supports the School of the Americas.

Quotes on issues2002.org. The first I can overlook as a typical Southern Dem flip-flop, but to support a school where assassins are trained to overthrow foreign governments goes far beyond a mere political disagreement for me. It's a negative statement about his morals and character since he knows the history of SotA very well, and this can and will be used by the Rove media machine against him.

And 3., many of the quotes in the pro-Clark graphic above were qualified by the candidates, and the caveats have been left out of the quotes. Deference to military services is de rigeur campaign requirement, and is more from candidates not wanting to seem unpatriotic than out-and-out support for the candidate.

[NV1962]

8. Could you look at this?

http://nv1962.forclark.com/story/2004/1/20/194525/572

As to the flag issue, I think Wes Clark's serving in the armed forces for 34 years goes a long way in explaining his position on the flag. I understand and can to a certain extent agree with apprehension over Wes Clark's position on the flag burning issue, but my take on it is that he's rather sending a message: let's respect the national symbol, don't tar the whole country with a particular / partisan / minority issue. That's what the far right does when it claims "patriotism" and the same flag as "their" field, too.

That aside, I'm very much interested in your take on what I wrote on the SOA issue.

[LandOLincoln]

12. Dennis Kucinich also supports the flag-burning amendment....

believe it or not, and so do all the veterans I know, no matter how liberal they might be otherwise.

[Casablanca]

14. Possibly, but it's still symbolic idolatry ...

And it plays way too much to a groupthink definition of patriotism, which is something we've had way too much of in America (particularly since the Reagan years). Locking up a person for burning a cloth, along with burning books, is something only fascist governments do.

So respectfully, Dennis and the vets you're talking about are wrong.

[Casablanca]

13. Excellent post, and one I largely agree with ...

Particularly your expression of outrage against the widespread complicity with the wrongs committed by the Reagan administration. It thouroughly disgusts me to see the reverence he is still paid by people who should know better. Alzheimers is not a moral defense.

My responses are probably ones you've already heard, considering that you've obviously looked into this issue extensively, but since you've asked ...

I recognize that much of the damning info against the SotA (I can never recall the new verbose name) is decades old, and that there's a lot of talk that the school has changed its ways recently. I find that difficult to believe because 1. they're a military institution, and military institutions are loathe to change in response to external criticism because it is a very insular society where tactical expediency is valued more than morality, and 2. as you've pointed out, promises of reform were not followed up by the sustained and open public scrutiny needed to change military behavior. Clinton was clearly afraid of the hawks in the Pentagon, and went out his way not to rile them. Whether the SotA reformed or not, we probably wouldn't have been allowed to know about it either way.

As for Clark's peripheral involvement with the school, I think that's possible, even though his "Trust me, they're good boys now." defense of the school implies that he knows a lot about what goes on there. I don't hold him accountable for what went on (and may still go on) there, I hold him responsible for his dogmatic support of an institution that he knows many of his progressive supporters have serious and valid qualms about. To me, military groupthink is a moral and character issue, and Clark should show that he is willing and able to rise about groupthink responses, and validate and substantively address people's misgivings about the continued existence of the school. As one who has shown that he can operate as a maverick against the military order when necessary, and pay the price for it, I expect no less moral courage and responsibility from him on this issue.

As for your rationale of Clark's support for a flag-burning amendment, I agree - it's expected from someone of his background. But it's still unwise, even if he thinks he'll win some conservative-leaning independents (there aren't many of them, by definition) by that stance. He'll potentially lose far more progressives. Many progressive respect what the flag represents as much as he does, but a flag-burning amendment is based on symbolic idolatry, which no intelligent true patriot would subscribe to. I would like to see him _not_ respond in a typical Southern Dem way (much like Edward's stance against the use of the Confederate flag motif) and say "Yes, I do personally believe in what the flag stands for so strongly that I'd like to see the amendment. But I realize that many others agree with me just as strongly about the flag but don't about the amendment, and I respect that." It would blunt the political fallout of his stance without seeming duplicitous about what he's already stated, or to seem like a pollwatcher - which is something Rove would try to exploit against him.

[robbedvoter]

10. Clark's statement on SOA

http://clark04.com/issues/soa/
Statement of General Wesley Clark on the School of the Americas
(now known as the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation)

I strongly condemn human rights abuses of any kind. Throughout my career, I have fought to protect the fundamental rights of all people and to promote democratic values that empower people to prevent abuses of power and combat them when they occur.

It is unacceptable that some who passed through the School of the Americas (now known as the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation) committed human rights abuses. Those that did should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law - as should all who commit war crimes or crimes against humanity. In order to prevent such abuses from happening in the future, we must promote a policy of engagement and education with friends and allies in the region.

I strongly support the reforms that have been implemented at WHISC and encourage careful vetting of students. I strongly support oversight measures that ensure that antidemocratic principles are not taught at the school. Thanks to the work of human rights campaigners and others, WHISC is constantly improving the way it teaches the Army's values of respect for human rights, for civil institutions, and for dissent.

As for the flag, you can burn it anywhere but Vermont. cuz Dean made it so.

Dean's cute flag flap
http://www.salon.com/opinion/conason/2003/11/14/friday/?ref=http://images.salon.com/src/ads/aol/aol_ splash2.htm
Joe Conason's Journal: Nov 14, 2003
Several readers distressed by Wesley Clark's remarks supporting the flag desecration amendment wrote in to declare that they had dropped their support of the retired general in favor of Howard Dean. But others pointed out what I didn't know about Dean's own record on this issue. Two years ago, as governor of Vermont, he brokered a legislative resolution that urged Congress to "take whatever legislative action it deems necessary and appropriate to honor and safeguard the United States Flag." While a bit vague, that sounded much like an endorsement of the Constitutional amendment.

[Casablanca]

15. Thanks for the SotA quote ...

It goes beyond the quotes I saw on issues2002.org, and eases a lot of concerns I have about that issue - if he's willing to act on the rhetoric more than Clinton did.

Dean's implicit support of the amendment is something I disagree with along with Clark's, and for the same reasons. And I disagree that it will help him win independents, since the media will focus on the inconsistency between his social liberal stance and that patently social conservative view.

[tishaLA]

9. Two things

One: Is there any way you can reduce that pic? It's really big.

Two: I found this great report about Clark's AZ appearance last night on a yahoo group. Here is the link and part of the post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wesleyclark2004/message/45812

When he was introduced he came by through the area I was standing (which I scoped out). When he was going through the throngs of people to get to the area to speak he had sort of a 'glazed' look, like he was still in NH mode of insanity of the masses. When he was passed me and offered me his hand, I took it in both of mine and said "welcome back to Arizona and congrats on NH!"...he stopped for just a moment, looked me in the eyes and said "thank you" very quietly...he then took a moment to LOOK at each of the people
whose hands he was taking and he was 'back'.

People reacted as they always do...screaming, chanting, clapping , near hysteria. I spoke to a captive group prior to him coming about what he would do for them once they met him...afterwards they came to me and told me they have never been so moved in their lives.

The magic is still with him! His passion is still there and bigger then ever. The bottom line is we need to win BIG on February 3rd...

He spoke well (although his voice is not good) and his famous smile was absolutely radiant last nite...he was funny, serious, caring, passionate...the vets in the crowd were crying and I was privileged to hear a few of them tell him THANK YOU for running. One young man who I believe had just gotten out and was in Iraqi, politely interrupted him for a moment (this was when photos were being taken) and told him he had just returned and who he served with...he said 'Sir, I just want to tell you that what you are doing means everything to us vets and thank you"..then he turned to leave (this young man was humbling)...The General who was two or three people from him said, "wait, come here, and the young man looked at him and the General offered his hand and pulled the guy to him in a hug and said "thank you", for what YOU have done for this country...the young man got tears in his eyes as did the General...as did I!!! God how moving. He SO loves the military men and women....

edit: formatting

[Myra]

16. Thanks robbedvoter! He's the best. So are you!

eom

[robbedvoter]

17. Blush, blush...kick!

;-)

[rpf113]

18. Good ad.

It looks like the storyboard for a good ad campaign.