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Just wondering. Why are some Dems calling for Troups home by end of '06?

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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 12:10 AM
Original message
Just wondering. Why are some Dems calling for Troups home by end of '06?
Edited on Tue Nov-08-05 12:25 AM by FrenchieCat
I see that Tom Dashle has hopped on the "Troups Home by end of 2006" bandwagon....and has a petition in on the DU home page.
http://www.newleadershipforamerica.com/index.php?option=com_philaform&Itemid=34&form_id=2

Also, Feingold has a 2006 December Home for Troups date.
http://www.democrats.com/node/5776

Why are these Dems giving the GOP a way out PRIOR to the '06 elections?

I mean, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that it would be too easy for the Bush admin to make enough noise in September/October about something that MIGHT or MIGHT NOT happen in December, and then doesn't.

My understanding is that there are those who are counting the troups...and that currently there has been an increase.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2231123

Wouldn't it also be easy for Bush to start calling troups home say on the First of November.....only bring some of those in the increased numbers, and then stop once the elections have occurred?

Are we stoopid, have we noticed, or are we falling for this shit? Personally, I am suspicious of any date proclaimed now that is scheduled for AFTER THE 2006 ELECTION.

What about you?
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
1. You' re right. The American people are very stupid, like little children
and they'll eat up anything this White House puts out there like doggie biscuits.

I can almost envision Condescending Rice saying "Peace is at end" in late November 2006.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Some Dems hope to 'push' the withdrawal--instead of 'When Itaqi troops
stand up/We stand down (WH manta)--it is PLAN with dates. Feingold was the first a few months ago--but got little attention.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Condi will say "peace is at end"....like a week before the elections
Edited on Tue Nov-08-05 12:33 AM by FrenchieCat
you mean? The elections are on the first Tuesday in November 2006....and then Rice can also have a nice little terrorist threat to boot....just for drama! :eyes:
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
3. too much focus on the dates
also important is what should be done between now and then. and hold Bush accountable for ALL of that rather than make it just about some date.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. "hold Bush accountable"
i like the sound of "hold Bush accountable" but what does that exactly mean? will the budget for the war be cut-off if he fails to meet the objectives? and who will define the objectives?

the problem i see with the Democrats' current thinking is that if bush continues to fail, we just remain in Iraq longer and longer ...

where's the accountability in that?
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. But I am asking about the wisdom of Dems having announced demands
Edited on Tue Nov-08-05 12:38 AM by FrenchieCat
for a pull out date that just happens to fall a month or so after the elections of 2006. Does that really make any sense? Just asking.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. my answer would not be responsive to the gist of your question
my answer would be to say that we should be getting the troops out of that hell hole ASAP and the politics be damned ... if one were to argue that "ASAP" means the end of 2006 because of conditions in Iraq (i.e. whatever objectives they believe can be achieved by then), i'd rather see that be the driving force than the midterm elections ... playing politics with the war is just plain wrong regardless of which party is doing it ...

btw, i agree with your speculation that bush will manipulate the war and lie about his plans to help the republicans in the midterms ...

and another btw, it is remarkable that anyone is willing to invest the rest of this year and all of next year (and probably much longer) in Iraq ... that's about another year and a quarter which is roughly 50% of the time we've already been there ... let's hope we don't see another 50% increase in the number killed by then ... chances are, that's exactly what will happen ...

i wouldn't give my life for what's going on over there; would you? if this were up to me, the troops would be home this weekend ... i would do all i could to prevent the loss of even one more American ...
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. Ah....so you are saying that 2 months could make the difference....
and that its possible that December 2006 is wayyyyy better than October 2006?


I personally don't have a problem having a strategy for the 2006 elections. Does that make me a bad person? I mean, the reason that we are as fucked is that we keep coming up short in elections.

So you are saying that we shouldn't utilize a strategy available considering that it wasn't a Dem administration that started this shit. We should take the "high Road".......? I'm tired of that road traveled before. Doesn't seem to help anybody in a long run!

Principle is one thing.....political suicide is another, IMO.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #19
26. did i call you a bad person?
i certainly didn't mean to ...

if you want to talk politics, let's talk politics ... here's my view on what the Democrats should do about the "withdrawal issue" ... ready?

i think they should call for immediate withdrawal ...

what voters don't like at all is to see the Party's putting their selfish political interests ahead of the best interest of the country ... if you can sell October, 2006, and that wouldn't be my preference, then sell it ... but if the Democratic Party's plan doesn't pass the smell test, you've gambled everything ... i don't think a plan like that would pass the smell test but what the hell do i know ...

a survey on voter sentiments that was just done showed Congressional Dems with huge leads on almost every issue except one ... and that issue was "leadership" ... and that issue, even though it's just one issue, could cost us everything next year ...

we could blame Rove; we could blame the press; we could blame the 'sheeple'; we could blame the lies and the propaganda; we could blame just about anything or anyone for Americans holding this view of the Democratic Party and its candidates ... but the numbers are the numbers ...

leadership on the war means taking a firm stand ... if you think the Dems have done that, fine ... i don't ... i have yet to hear a single Democratic plan, other than those who signed on to the McGovern plan (or whatever they're calling it), that actually calls for a clear end to this madness ... ALL the other plans leave and open-ended withdrawal process that could easily drag on for years ... and accountability? there is no real plan; there is no accountability; bush just keeps failing and the war goes on ... no threats of cutting off the authorization for the war they did when they repealed the Gulf of Tonkin resolution; no cutting off the funding; no "date certain" beyond which the war must be ended ...

i think the American people have expressed a tidal wave for ended this war ASAP ... but Democrats are too fearful to do that ... i think they're afraid of being labeled soft on defense ... it's too bad ... a bold stroke calling for withdrawal might just be the demonstration of courage and leadership the American people are looking for ...

so yes, principle is one thing and political suicide another ... my view is that the Democrats are committing political suicide by failing to act as a real opposition Party ... it's making them seem weaker; not stronger ...

i like to believe that the best policies make the best politics ... it seems unlikely the Democrats are going to be willing to test this theory anytime soon ... and that's too bad ...
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. You see, I understand the stance of Troups home immediately.....
I just don't understand the Daschle/Feingold call of bother to call for a dateline that places troup withdrawal a month AFTER THE 2006 ELECTIONS. That's what I was asking about......

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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. i understand what you were asking about ...
that's why i said my answer wouldn't really be responsive ...

you're asking about the political implications of the timing they've described and my answer is that we should have a higher calling, especially where lives are on the line ...

but, if I can't get a buy in for immediate withdrawal and you're campaigning for October instead of December, for any reason, i agree that would be the better of the two months ...
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 12:24 AM
Response to Original message
4. Maybe they are trying to back the Repugs into a corner.
If nothing is being done by then, they can use it.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Yea....but AFTER the elections in '06....
how does that work exactly?

Dems back the Repugs into a corner how? To allow "the Iraq war is Fucked and it's Bush/GOP's war" message to be something the Dems can't use.....if the smoking mirror Bush Admin starts signaling troup pull outs....but only after the elections? That's sounds ok?

I don't get it! Can I get another clue, please? :shrug:
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Believe it has something to do with '08 more than '06
Edited on Tue Nov-08-05 12:34 AM by Carolab
http://libwocyn.blogspot.com/2005_08_01_libwocyn_archive.html

Scroll down this blog to the article "FUBAR". Interesting discussion about withdrawal and the Dems.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. Well yeah....I read it, and I understand this part.....
Which brings me to the third reason why calling for withdrawal is a bad idea. Not only will it look impotent, but, like last time, it will also end up looking foolish. This isn't because some form of withdrawal is necessarily a bad idea; plenty of smart people think the US ought to get out of Iraq asap. It's because the withdrawal we get is almost certainly going to be an incompetent, callous, cut-your-losses-for-the-midterms disaster. And as the region descends into outright civil war; if people start being ethnically cleansed; as the US abandons the Kurds and the geurrilla-owned towns and dooms the region to more economic misery for the second time since 1990, the liberal hawks who shared in the cheering for withdrawal will be stuck doing exactly what they did last time: striking politically meaningless distinctions between principle and practice and arguing that We Would Have Done It Better. And that will ring as hollow as before because, just like they were always getting Bush-Rumsfeld's war, they were also going to get Bush-Rumsfeld's withdrawal. And if they if they're on record supporting it, they'll be reduced to demoralizing retrospective carping yet again.


So why are Daschle and Feingold calling for Withdrawals to start at the END of 2006.....makes no sense. Screw 2008....2006 is pivotal and super important!

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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. I think it might be because it doesn't matter.
I watched the Chief of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Peter Pace on Lehrer's show tonight. This guy was saying that the tactic is to stay on in cities "we" have "taken" so the "insurgents" can't go back in--with "coalition and Iraqi troops". He was talking about the "elections" in December giving the "Iraqis a chance to self-govern". This might be the Dems way of equivocating. In other words, sit back and see what happens...if this stay the course philosophy ends up giving them more rope to hang themselves or not. Their demands to leave sooner aren't going to go anywhere anyway. The Repubs are doing this their way or the highway.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. That I understand.
Thanks! :hi:
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
6. Democrats Forced Bush To Change Course
Is that really so hard to comprehend?
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Doh.....I guess so....
Can you run what you are talking about by me again.....

I missed it.


I was asking a question. Did you answer it? I can't really tell. Sorry if I did. :shrug:
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. One more time.
I'll try this again. Maybe it'll make some sense.

http://libwocyn.blogspot.com/2005_08_01_libwocyn_archive.html

"As a digression, I want to make a distinction here between the situation now and the situation a year ago. All through 2004 I argued, and still maintain, that we should have run cleanly against the war. Berman, for instance, is absolutely right that Kerry's middle-ground position on Iraq, while basically consistent and even responsible, was too complicated and looked too qualified for the public to either grasp or trust. But the error of the campaign's hedging was bigger than just tactics: it represented a fundamental misreading of the political era. The Iraq War has been the great radicalizer, the political awakening, for a whole generation of young people, myself included. It was why turnout in the 2004 election hit levels not seen since... Vietnam. It's why Kerry's only major demographic gain came among men age 18-29 where he achieved a whopping 10% improvement over the 2000 result, mainly by warning young audiences that Bush might reinstate the draft if re-elected (highly unlikely, but politically effective, judging by the spluttering of conservatives and an Annenburg survey that found 53% of men under 25 feared a draft reinstatement if Bush won.)

Yet at the same time, the Dems didn't need to fear Iraq being the political minefield that Vietnam was or opposing it being the kiss of death that opposing Vietnam was. The tale of Iraq and its discontents carries none of the Vietnam era's cultural, generational overtones. For all the Republican demagoguery, Howard Dean, and John Kerry who usurped him, was no George McGovern. Today's protesters aren't as scary to middle America as those who rioted at the '68 convention (Cindy Shaheen hardly conjures images of the Weather Underground). Plus, when these "what to do" issues are debated on the center-left, it always seems to go unmentioned that the Democrats who attained the most foreign policy cred, and power, within the party in the 80s and 90s had all been overt, passionate opponents of the Vietnam War, and used their youthful prudence vis-a-vis that disaster as a context for their later-period hawkery. Similarly, the next generation of hawkish Dems -- assuming they were smart enough to shun the Iraq bandwagon -- could have gotten a similar amount of mileage out of refusing to succumb to "Iraq syndrome" when debating future foreign policy challenges.

So Kerry -- who's honourable biography and voting history made him an ideal candidate to assume the mantle of opposition to preemptive war -- should have opposed the war flat out as the calamity it was always going to be. Even had he lost the election, the party would be in far better shape than it is right now, and on top of that, he would have been right. Even having voted for the IWR because of White House misdirection, he could have saved himself by renouncing his vote as the product of misdirection, taken the lumps, then moved on to force Bush to defend it in principle.

So what's changed? Why isn't what would have good for Kerry then bad for Biden now?

The answer is roughly that the situation right now is more like it was just before the IWR vote in October 2002 than like the run-up to the election in 2004. By doing now what Kerry ought to have done in 2004, HRC and Biden wouldn't avoid his mistake but, actually, would set themselves up to repeat it.

First, there's the problem of the interaction between the (complex) policy with the (inevitably bone-stupid) politics of withdrawal: how fast, whether the US should provide air support to the Iraqi forces after the troops have left etc. These aren't soundbite, pep rally issues. Like in 2002 and 2004 when the issue was popularly understood as "for the war" vs. "against the war", the issue as it plays out in the popular understanding over the next few months is likely to take the simple form of "out now" vs. "stay the course". No matter how substantive and responsible HRC and Biden's withdrawal plans are, they'll come through in the popular conciousness as "let's cut and run". And given their past statements and votes in favour of the war, that's going to look to the press an the public like the same kind of hypocritical reversal Kerry was unfairly but inevitably hammered for when criticized a war he voted in favour of on the campaign trail.

Secondly, regardless of Biden and HRC's stances, cut-and-run is likely to become the dominant political position soon anyway. I'd say it's basically inevitable at this point. Not only is the occupation an abject failure, but the public increasingly knows that it is. Bush's approval ratings are in the toilet and the midterms are only 16 months away. Pretty soon, the GOP congress, at least those in insecure districts, will start to smell the flopsweat, have nightmares about Paul Hackett coming to their district, and scuttle back to their Realist roots. Some will say God told them to do it; others will say that we've done all we can but Iraqis just won't help themselves; some might even argue that withdrawing is necessary to lower gas prices. And when the White House feels it can't hold the squirming GOP congressmen in line anymore, it too will switch to a full-on advocation of withdrawal.

And when it does, the Bushies and the Congressional GOP -- not the liberal hawks -- will be the ones making the policy, getting the coverage, sharing the credit and the blame. HRC and Biden, if they join the homecoming bandwagon, even if they issued the inital call to the bandwagon as liberals wish they would, aren't going to be relevant in how the whole thing plays out. They'll just be part of the chorus, vaguely on the same page as the White House, just like they were as Bush took the nation to war in the first place. Being the first to take a popular position is hardly an advantage when you don't control what actually happens when the position is implemented.

Which brings me to the third reason why calling for withdrawal is a bad idea. Not only will it look impotent, but, like last time, it will also end up looking foolish. This isn't because some form of withdrawal is necessarily a bad idea; plenty of smart people think the US ought to get out of Iraq asap. It's because the withdrawal we get is almost certainly going to be an incompetent, callous, cut-your-losses-for-the-midterms disaster. And as the region descends into outright civil war; if people start being ethnically cleansed; as the US abandons the Kurds and the geurrilla-owned towns and dooms the region to more economic misery for the second time since 1990, the liberal hawks who shared in the cheering for withdrawal will be stuck doing exactly what they did last time: striking politically meaningless distinctions between principle and practice and arguing that We Would Have Done It Better. And that will ring as hollow as before because, just like they were always getting Bush-Rumsfeld's war, they were also going to get Bush-Rumsfeld's withdrawal. And if they if they're on record supporting it, they'll be reduced to demoralizing retrospective carping yet again.

If instead, HRC, Bayh, Biden etc. oppose the troop drawdown they'll probably be proved right for practical-political purposes. Since their bleating is impotent given the GOP hold on government, they hurt nobody in demanding we stay the course, and they gain a measure of consistency given their past support for the war effort. And, most important by far, come 2007, they can get up there and lambaste Bush and his congressional enablers (some of whom will be running to replace him) for getting into a war they didn't intend to finish, and for putting the polls ahead of the policy when the going got tough. That is, they can turn the focus onto what's awful about the GOP rather than having to explain their own enabling of the awfulness.

Maybe all this sounds like crass politics. But as a simple moral issue, Americans should have a choice about the defining controversial issues of our time, like preemptive war and empire and the US role in world peace. The parties should not march in lockstep when it comes to controversial questions of war and peace, even if one of them has to assume an unpopular position. The Dems fucked up badly in not providing that choice to their voters in 2002 and 2004. I hope at least one Dem who opposed the debacle from the start mounts a credible challenge for the 2008 nomination. But failing that, I'd rather support a Dem candidate whose position on the war was consistent and didn't float around with the polls, happening to more or less coincide with the White House's position over the course of the entire debacle. For the Senate hawkery to go cut-and-run now would risk confirming that very bad pattern if, as I predict, the GOP follows suit. And I think it'll end up biting us in the ass."
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. Maybe I'm just getting old.....
So what does this mean to me....that Dems should not ask for troups to pull out in December of 2006? or that it doesn't matter? Or that Bush is being held accountable and that's good? or that it's 2008 that counts? Or that .....what? Maybe I'm just stoopid....cause I still don't get it.

I personally don't want any Dems asking for troups to come home AFTER THE ELECTIONS OF 2006. I think that it is a dumb demand.

Either the troups are demanded to be brought home in October of 2006....or else the demands don't make any fucking sense.

So no, I still don't get "it" obviously! :shrug:
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. I think this is it.
"or that it doesn't matter"

See my answer to your post above.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. By Jove....I think I've got it! n/t
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. You missed it?
Don't think so. I respect you more than that, you're not that dense.

Sorry Clark is toting for Hillary's pro-war stance. Not my problem.

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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. You are actually talking in circles and not being straight with me .......
nor are you dealing with my OP in a straight Forward manner.

I clearly stated in my OP that I want to know if calling for Troups out in December of 2006 by Dems is a wise move.

Is your answer yes or no? or what?

Forget about Clark.....he ain't mentioned in my OP...and if you so chose to respond to my OP....please make it clear. I feel like I'm having to puzzle up what you are truly saying. Sorry bout that!
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. "Democrats Forced Bush To Change Course"
Headlines in newspapers in October 2006.

I honestly don't know how much more straightforward it can be. That's the strategy. It works no matter what Bush does. Pulls out troops, we forced him to do it. Doesn't pull out troops, elect people who will.

We won't get there though because there's still a perky little Democrat who needs the war to win in 2008. And others who would literally cut out their own tongues before they stood behind the person who is leading this strategy.

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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Who's the "perky" little Democrat who needs a war to win in 2008?
Edited on Tue Nov-08-05 01:11 AM by FrenchieCat
And how does it work to call for troup pull out by December of 2006, the month AFTER THE 2006 elections? Who will be writing this "headline" that you have come up with. The corporate media? Please explain this too me.

Thank you.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. You're too transparent
Gosh, who could be running in 2008 who needs to be tough on war. Hmmm.

The plan is not to pull all the troops out IN Dec 2006. I'm sure you know that.

Enough of the media has found its voice with the Libby indictment. It won't be quite as hard to get headlines as it has been. Provided our perky friend doesn't sideline us with her ambitions.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. So I'm transparent now.....Thanks....I thought I always was!
Edited on Tue Nov-08-05 01:41 AM by FrenchieCat
But what I am asking about is why ask for a pull out starting December 2006.....a month after the election?

Ok so you've given me a hint with the "she" in your statements. Ok, so now I know who you are talking about, which still doesn't answer my OP...which has nothing to do with "she" nor Clark...

Here's the question again: Why do the Dashle/Feingold Iraq plan requesting a December 2006 pull out date (a month after the 2006 congressional midterm elections) make sense? I don't think that plan makes sense....so I was asking others what they thought of that particular plan. That is my clear question based on my OP.

I will add that if you now think the corporate media has "found its voice"....think again. I ain't that easily pacified.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. It doesn't
In fact, Feingold doesn't have a set date. Daschle isn't even in the Senate, so I don't know what he's got to do with anything. The rest of the Democrats calling for a Change of Course have called for a systematic withdrawal, sector by sector, beginning THIS Christmas.

Keith Olbermann is the one who said that the period where they were being called on the carpet for having liberal guests on is over. I hope he's right. Things are better for now, although not as good as it should be.

But it won't matter if the majority of Democrats aren't on board, which I'm not hopeful about because of the reasons already given.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. "systematic withdrawal"
just to clarify, they've called for a "systematic withdrawal" only if certain conditions are met ... and those conditions are essentially not defined at this time ...

if the conditions once established are not met, my understanding is that they would not support further withdrawals until they are ...

i suppose from some perspective one might call that calling for "systematic withdrawal" ...
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. They're defined
They've been defined since the war started. Clark has defined them. Kerry has defined them. As the situation changes, the conditions are tweaked. Kerry is calling for a sector by sector turnover to Iraq and withdrawal of our troops, beginning next month. It's better than what Kucinich is calling for, which is a plan to begin withdrawal in Oct 2006.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. conditions for withdrawal
have I misread Kerry's statement about this?

i thought he said that troops should be withdrawn when benchmarks are met but that bush should come up with a plan to define the benchmarks ...

my impression was that Kerry did not actually provide what the benchmarks should be with the exception of the 20,000 troop drawdown after the December elections ...

is this not correct?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. Sector by sector withdrawal
More Iraqi troop training, including sending them out of the country if necessary. Ramping it up to get it completed in 6 months. Bring in NATO and engage support of Sunni neighbors. The sector by sector turnover is so that the progress is visible to everybody. NO permanent bases. Bush is the one that has to implement the plan because he's the President, that's why Kerry calls on him to lay out a plan. But Kerry also lays out what needs to be done and he has been on a regular basis since before this war started.

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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. not sure we're on the same page here ...
i'm asking a yes or no question ... i understand there were many elements to Kerry's plan for the war ...

my question is whether he tied withdrawal, with the except of the December of elections, to benchmarks that it would be up to bush to define?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. no
He defined them. I gave them to you. Train Iraq troops within 6 months. Turn the country over, sector by sector. Get out.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #41
44. i don't read the plan that way ...
i don't agree that he defined them ... his statement clearly calls for "the Administration" to define them ... i've excerpted and highlighted the statement from Kerry's speech on which I base my understanding:

"The Administration must immediately give Congress and the American people a detailed plan for the transfer of military and police responsibilities on a sector by sector basis to Iraqis so the majority of our combat forces can be withdrawn."

Kerry also made withdrawal of troops conditional on meeting the benchmarks when he said:

"To undermine the insurgency, we must instead simultaneously pursue both a political settlement and the withdrawal of American combat forces linked to specific, responsible benchmarks.

one question i have is what happens if bush fails to meet the benchmarks?

i'd like to see some language that holds bush accountable when he fails as i'm sure most of us expect he will ... why not build in a call to cut-off funding for the war after some specified date? the way things are setup right now, even if bush agreed to provide a plan, the reality is that there's no penalty called for if he fails to meet it ...

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 03:20 AM
Response to Reply #44
45. That's cherry picking and misinterpreting
I have to say I'm not surprised. It clearly says to pursue both political settlement and troop withdrawal. Not that troop withdrawal is contingent on any particular political settlement. Only that political resolutions will be helpful to undermine the insurgency. The benchmarks are the elections, defining timeframes for troop training and sectors to withdraw from. It's really not complicated.

Kerry has defined them, which is what you asked.

He can't implement them, Bush has to do that because he's the Commander in Chief. That's the way it is.

What would you have Kerry do in a year if Bush has done nothing? Shoot him?
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 03:33 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. first of all...
i knew it would only be a matter of time that you would throw in a personal attack ... it was totally uncalled for ... i provided complete statements from the plan we're discussing and you call it cherry picking and misinterpreting ... that's really sad ...

i guess you consider resorting to personal attacks to be a defense of your arguments ... take a hint: it's not ...

i did NOT say that troop withdrawal was conditional on a "particular political settlement" ... perhaps you would like to show me where i made that statement ... i provided you with Kerry's own words and you still choose to dispute them ...

you keep saying "Kerry has defined them" and yet, right there in black and white, Kerry said the Administration has to come up with the plan ... and you consider it "cherry picking" to suggest that "linkage to benchmarks" does not imply conditionality? "linkage" in this context means that if the benchmarks aren't achieved, the withdrawal will not happen ...

and finally, with regard to your "shoot him" remark, i provided an idea of what i would like to see ... i talked about calling for a cut-off of funding if the benchmarks are not met within a reasonable timeframe ... what i'd really like to see is a call to repeal the IWR that many have come to see as a mistake ... the point isn't that Democrats control the Congress; the point is that they have every right to demand accountability even if they're unable to enforce it ...
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 03:51 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. cut off of funding
That would be reasonable, but I don't know when Congress would call for it. It took a very long time in Vietnam.

But, yes, I get frustrated when the same people make the same statements, time and time again.

I get frustrated when the Kucinich plan doesn't even call for withdrawal to begin until Oct 2006, yet he's praised as the anti-war advocate.

I get frustrated when the person who has laid out plan after plan to end this war is labeled a warmonger.

I get frustrated when people will misconstrue anything to pick apart something just because it has the name Kerry on it. It is flat out common sense that Bush has to implement the plan, I don't know what purpose it serves to pretend those words cancel out the plan that he laid out to get out of Iraq.

Or that working towards political solutions, which is also only common sense, is a specific linkage to a benchmark that means withdrawal won't happen.

I get tired of having good plans to end this war, or change the voting system, or expose the war lies, get trashed because the wrong person brought them to the public's attention. You didn't engage me to have an honest debate. You engaged to pick apart John Kerry. And no, I'm not surprised.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 04:17 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. it's apparent you don't understand Kerry's position on withdrawal ...
you think i "pick apart John Kerry" ... that's interesting ... i disagree with his position on the war ... in this thread, there's been hardly any criticism at all ... we were trying to establish the nature of Kerry's intent regarding troop withdrawal ... i made fair, clear statements about his position on withdrawal and you can't even acknowledge that it was you who failed to understand what he said ...

and you failed to acknowledge my support for parts of his position and yet you think you know me and my motivations??? you know nothing about me ...

did you know in other posts i complimented elements of Kerry's Iraq plan? did ya, huh? did ya, huh? bet you didn't ... everyone's out to get poor little old you ... talk about not debating honestly ...

did you see my posts about my strong support for Kerry's comments on the energy bill? bet ya didn't, did ya? but you're so sure all i want to do is bash Kerry ... oh yes, you're a real honest debater ...

think i showed up bashing away on all those threads this weekend that were critical of Kerry? if there were any on his position on the war, i may have stated my criticisms ... and the others about his election concession? nope, you want find any posts from me ... at least nothing critical ...

you are so incredibly misinformed, accusatory, personal and absurd that you really aren't worth wasting time with ... go check those threads for yourself ... i know you wouldn't want to take my word for it since you're so convinced i'm not honest ... oh yes, your a real honest debater ...

the bottom line is, my misinformed friend, that Kerry's position on withdrawal is exactly as i stated it ... you think you're obligated to defend Kerry; the truth is, he wasn't being attacked ... you confuse disagreement with attack and instead of responsibly discussing the issue, you resort to personal attacks and misinformation ...

if you're going to support the guy, why not learn a little about what his position really is ??? and if you ever hope to convince anyone who might one day support him if he ever changed his position on Iraq, you might try not resorting to personal attacks ... it's really not very helpful to any candidate when their supporters act as you have ...

but you won't listen to any advice because you think it's more important to be tough than right ... well, keep on being tough ... maybe that will get you what you want ...

goodnight.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 04:29 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. As if this is the first such thread
As if your motives aren't crystal clear. I say I'm not surprised at your response, oh the horror, and am lamblasted as attacking and insulting you.

Then you turn around and call me misinformed, accusatory, personal and absurd. It is just so typical.

Pretend all you want. It has become clear to me that some people are more interested in being anti-war than ending the war.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. I could have sworn Feingold had set a timetable.....

FEINGOLD PROPOSES WITHDRAWAL....Fortuitously, Russ Feingold called today for a timed withdrawal from Iraq. This is from his press release:

U.S. Senator Russ Feingold today, at a local Listening Session in Marquette, Wisconsin, proposed a target timeframe for the completion of the military mission in Iraq and suggested December 31, 2006 as the target date for the completion of the withdrawal of American troops from Iraq.
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2005_08/006931.php

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. When does it start?
How does it progress? How do you measue the progress?

He has a target date of the end of next year, that's it. Kucinich has a target date to begin pulling troops out in Oct of 2006. Kerry is the only one who has ever suggested a beginning date for troop withdrawal. Last year he proposed a plan that would allow for troops to begin coming home this past summer. Now he has proposed a plan to begin bringing them home next month.

For a bunch of people who want to end this war, it's funny how nobody ever gets behind the guy who has consistently proposed plans to actually do it.

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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. But I wasn't referring to Kerry's plan...which isn't a pull out in
December 2006......

So maybe, you were reading things into my OP that weren't there? That would explain the "go round" that I sensed in your postings.....non? :shrug:
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. People are dying
You're playing. Feingold's plan calls for the withdrawal to be completed by December 2006, not to start after the elections. As have the other Senate Democrats that I've heard talk about withdrawal recently. You're entire premise was wrong from the gate. Why you want to play these games is beyond me, but people are dying while you do it.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #38
42. Wow...now, I'm playing! Give me a fucking break!
So ....Frenchie Cat starts a thread, Asks a question and makes a comment.....and while she's doing it, people are dying! So that makes FrenchieCat what? A murderer?

I don't even understand where you are coming from.....but stating what you did was uncalled for.

SO what are you doing, exactly?....cause I see you posting here as well.

Shouldn't you be out stopping the war or something. I mean, since people are dying, why are you here "playing" here at DU?

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. Your thread speaks for itself
Which I said way back in my second response to you. I really don't know why you're pretending to be dense because I know you're not. You choose to play word games, that's your business, I hope you don't take it out to the public. I don't, not here or when I'm not playing here either.
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snot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
16. THIS MAY BE AN IMPT STRATEGIC POINT--PLEASE RECOMMEND! nt
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ElectroPrincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #16
50. What's an Important Strategic Point is that INNOCENT Iraqi
civilians are continuing to DIE in significant numbers EVERY DAMN DAY.

And of Primary ... PARAMOUNT IMPORTANCE is the fact that Our Troops presence only serve as giant *targets* and delay the inevitable, i.e., civil war.

I lived though VIETNAM and *I'll be damed* to NOT ACTIVELY PROMOTE that our troops withdraw as soon as possible.

Yes, Daschle's plan is viable. It's beyond time to "declare victory" and LEAVE!!!
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