Deleted message

[Name removed]

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[dsc]

1. If he funded the Osama ad

if even one of his staff did I won't vote for him no matter what.

If he push polled about gay marriage and Dean's Jewish wife I won't vote for him no matter what.

The only way the above would change is with a full public apology, firing of any staffers involved, and a position of Dean's choice in the administration.

On edit, I should have mentioned that you have been gracious. I do appreciate this. But I also do feel this happened due to dirty tricks and negative campaigning against Dean. I am hoping that Kerry had nothing to do with this, but he got caught push polling on tape.

[cthrumatrix]

6. ditto.............

[Liberal in Ohio]

13. Do you have any links to the push polling story

I have not heard that one -- sounds like a Rove move

I am a Dean supporter who will vote for the Dem nominee but I will not volunteer or contribute to Kerry because of his dirty campaign tricks.

[dsc]

17. It was caught on tape

and covered by ABC News. I will try to find the link but it has been posted several times.

Link

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Politics/ThisWeek/Kerry_Dean_calls_040117-1.html

[ShimokitaJer]

44. Here's a link

to the ABC News story:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Politics/ThisWeek/Kerry_Dean_calls_040117.html

There was also a pretty long discussion on dKos, with quite a few first-hand accounts of people finding Iowa voters who seemed to think Dean was an abortionist and wife-beater, but I can't find the link right now.

[saracat]

91. Push Polling Story

I find it very interesting that most of the complainants were Dean supporters. I wonder if ABC contacted them, or they contacted the network? The conclusion drawn is at the end of the article

"At the end of any election, many campaigns are eager to both make such calls and accuse others of doing so, casting them as engaging in dirty tricks to energize their supporters and to turn swing voters off on their rivals.

During the 2000 GOP primaries, Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., charged then-Gov. George W. Bush with making "push call" phone calls against him. His campaign soon retaliated with recorded anti-Bush calls to Michigan voters that did not disclose their affiliation. "
Implicit in the author's conclusion is this is often done by both sides ,in in reverse to suit an agenda. This being the case, it could be construed as likely the Dean Campaign did this itself in order to blame the Kerry Camp. I am not claiming either side did any such thing ,I just want to point out that your link presents two scenarios, not just the one you indicated. The first example of the staffer "caught " on tape appears to be somewhat insignificant as he seemed to be merely debating Foreign Policy credentials and environmental policy. In any event, he was fired and the campaign publicly acknowledged its gaffe. I have worked on many campaigns in which young staffers are carried away, and it can be dangerous, but it is very common.I am afraid this story is a nonstarter.I am ABB and don't want any of our candidates crippled before the general election and certainly not by our own kind!

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[newyawker99]

113. Hi saracat!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[kerry-is-my-prez]

23. What about all the dirty tricks the Dean campaign pulled. Is he going

to apologize to the other campaigns for that? The Dean campaign has been dirtier than all the other one's....

[dsc]

33. Links please

Yes you need to actually back up your smear. I want a link to push polling, I supplied mine.

[dsc]

102. 8 hours later no link

[ibegurpard]

2. Pete, you've been one of the very few Kerry supporters

on this board who has actually been decent and as such, I will take your comments into consideration.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

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[calimary]

70. I appreciate your courtesy. But I'm HUGELY conflicted about Kerry.

My problems with him are

1) he voted for the war, AND for the Patriot Act. As such, he was a bush enabler. While Dean stuck his neck out and voiced what happened to be MY anger and frustration and opposition to the war, Kerry and Edwards and others were too busy trying to capitulate and give bush the benefit of the doubt. Again.

2) he told people like me who are still outraged over Selection 2000 to stop crying in our teacups and get over it. Get over it???????? I, for one, will NEVER be able to get over it. And I don't think I should have to. Would he also tell Jewish people they should stop crying in their teacups and get over the Holocaust?

3) he opposed bills like the prescription drug hosing of seniors, alright, BUT HE DIDN'T STICK AROUND TO VOTE AGAINST IT. Neither did Edwards, by the way. They perceived (yes, correctly) that it was a loser so they didn't bother to stay and at least make a statement. Machivellian, okay. But aren't the Machiavellians the ones we are presently trying to GET RID OF????

4) I am seriously doubtful as to how hard Kerry really wants this, and is willing to fight for it. He gets forceful when he says "Bring It ON!" But that's about it. The rest is and has been rather milquetoast. AND, he has formidable ammo on his team in the form of Rand Beers and Joseph Wilson, and hasn't done squat to make use of them. I'm still going back to that. It's my understanding from reading, listening, and digging into it, that these two guys have enough dirt on bush to constitute a proverbial "tactical nuke." AND KERRY HASN'T DONE SQUAT WITH THIS!!!!!! WHY isn't he willing to really really fight?

Pete, if it comes to that, I will find a way to vote for Kerry. I'm gonna have to. Because what I REALLY want to do, MOST, is vote bush OUT!!!! But I will do it half-heartedly. It was Dean who captured my feelings, and in fact, echoed them, way back when it supposedly wasn't what we were supposed to do, because we were all supposed to be docile little lambs for bush. Kerry sure looked like one of those. In fact, I think the only reason he's fighting a little harder now is because he's seen from the Dean people that this is what true Democrats really yearn for.

I appreciate your gentle appeal. It's a heck of a lot more palatable than what I've seen elsewhere around here. It actually might win you a few converts. I may eventually be one of them, but I can't promise that now. Kerry just doesn't excite me. Dean still does. He stuck his neck out when everybody else was pulling theirs in. That makes a world of difference to me.

[Walt Starr]

4. Too late

I've already lost hope. If Kerry is nominated, it'll be all I can do to bring myself to cast a vote for the man.

After he loses horribly, I will be leaving the Democratic Party for good.

[Monte Carlo]

8. What if I said "too late"?

What if Dean was the supposed frontrunner right now, and I said that I've already lost hope, and that if Dean is nominated, I'll merely vote for him, and that after he loses horribly, I'd be leaving the Democratic Party for good. What kind of friend would I be?

[Walt Starr]

12. Possibly honest

A question was asked and I answered honsetly.

I believe the Democratic Party is setting itself up for the worst electoral debacle in American History. If I'm right, the Democratic Party will officially be in its death throes November 3rd.

[lancdem]

21. But what about Monte Carlo's scenario?

What if people took the same attitude about Dean as you're taking about Kerry? It's not a one-way street. Dean is among my top four, and even if he is not my top choice, I would not hesitate to support him completely because I want Bush out.

[Walt Starr]

38. That's the way it goes

I will probably vote for Kerry should he be the nominee even though I am 100% convinced there is no way possible for Kerry to win. I won't donate time or money to what I consider to be a losing effort nor will I try to convince any fence sitters that Kerry is the right choice because I'm not convinced of that. I will vote for Kerry out of spite for Bush and nothing else.

Then, after Kerry loses, I'll leave the party to its own self destruction because should my predictions about the outcome of November 2 come true, the Democratic Party will die.

[Monte Carlo]

75. That's just indulging in cynicism.

I will not try to convince any fence sitters that Dean is the right choice because I'm not convinced of that. I will vote for Dean out of spite for Bush and nothing else.

Then, after Dean loses, I'll leave the party to its own self destruction because should my predictions about the outcome of November 2 come true, the Democratic Party will die.

[Walt Starr]

82. I have no problem with what you are saying

It's your right and under the circumstances if you feel that way, I support you reacting that way.

[liberalhistorian]

26. Kerry WILL NOT LOST TO SHRUB,

he has the best chance of ANY of the candidates, certainly much better than Dean! DEAN is the one who'll lose horribly to Shrub, that's a guarantee.

Kerry has all the advantages against Shrub, especially where the military is concerned, and the fact that we can contrast his being from the same kind of monied family as Shrub but choosing not to use his family's money and influence to get out of Vietnam, unlike the Boy King Impostor!

THAT is one of the main reasons why the repukes don't want Kerry to be the nominee and why they DO want Dean to be the nominee, because Kerry is far more electable, and they KNOW it! Just the contrast between Kerry in his uniform and the picture of Shrub chewing gum at the same age, using Daddy's influence to get out of Vietnam and forcing some poor, probably minority, kid to go in his place while he partied down in Texas, will work wonders! And the way he risked his own life to save that soldier's life in Vietnam has also really begun to resonate, especially with veterans.

And it's time to get real about Dean. He has no electability and, against Shrub, HE WILL BE SLAUGHTERED! Now, if you want Shrub to win again, that's your business, but don't come crying to DU in November the day after Dean's lost big-time to the Boy King Impostor.

[PVnRT]

28. Then why is it

that the media is running a 24-hour-a-day hatchet job against Dean?

Must be because everyone wants him to win the nomination, huh?

[liberalhistorian]

37. No, because the media loves kicking

someone when they're down, especially if they're a Dem. I repeat, Dean is NOT ELECTABLE AGAINST BUSH. He will be slaughtered, crushed, whatever you want to call it.

[Walt Starr]

41. No Insider candidate has been able to beat an incumbant

in modern presidential elections:

Adlai Stevenson - '56
Barry Goldwater - '64
George McGovern - '72
Walter Mondale - '84
Bob Dole - '96

and I am 100% convinced the Democratic Party is preparing to add:

John Kerry '04

[kurtyboy]

65. Maybe, but then again,

No incumbent president has ever been this crappy--ever.

[Walt Starr]

66. That's your view at the moment

There are voters out there saying they approve of the job he's doing at the same time 3 million jobs have been lost, their's included.

I say Kerry is 100% unelectable. We'll see on November 3rd, but there's a lot riding on the gamble of trying to do something that's never been done.

[AntiCoup2K4]

69. This is true, but you're forgetting the other half.

Kerry voted FOR most of his crap. And shares ties with the same crappy people pulling the strings of this crappy Fraudministration. So Kerry might as well be Max Cleland running against Junior, because he's got no legs to stand on.

(Sorry Max, bad pun, I know...)

[CTLawGuy]

57. Kerry will lose because

He opposes the war, but voted for it. he will look like an opportunist. he can't criticize bush on the war because Bush will say, "you voted for it, it was good enough for you then"

Kerry loves the middle class tax cuts, but the problem is, he voted against them, and bush will point that out while calling him a "tax-raiser" for his plan to get rid of the cuts for the wealthy.

kerry voted "present" on the Medicare bill, even after he couldnt appear at a debate because he was joining the filibuster. Why didnt he vote against it?

Kerry is longwinded and boring. He also comes across as Patrician. One of the reasons Bush was so successful was that he was able to portray himself as a regular person. I don't think Kerry can do that.

Anyone who voted for the war will have a base furious at him. It will be a prime opportunity for Nader to come back and say, "see, the Dem party doesnt care about you, they'd rather kiss Bush's ass on the war, no child left behind, and tax cuts." With Kerry, Nader might be stronger than in 2000.

[dansolo]

64. Bush's military record will not be a factor

Unless Kerry is willing to bring up Bush's record and challenge Bush to give a documented accounting of his actions during his stint at the TANG, the alleged advantage will not exist. The media has already demonstrated in 2000 that they will bury the story, so it will be up to the candidate to bring it up. Does Kerry have the guts?

[MercutioATC]

94. My issue is that Kerry has no attacks he can use...

War? There's Kerry's IWR vore.

Education? Kerry's No Child Left Behind vote.

Civil liberties? The Patriot Act vote.

By November, the economy will be doing well enough from Bush's $1.3T infusion that he won't even be able to use that.

I'm not optimistic about his chances.

[Monte Carlo]

31. Yeah, well, what if you're wrong?

Then quite frankly, I can think of a few different words to describe what kind of friend I'd be. Fickle and unreliable comes to mind.

The Democratic Party is hurting, but it is not in its death throes quite yet. John Kerry is not the worst thing in the world to happen to it, nor Howard Dean.

[Walt Starr]

43. I disagree

John Kerry is absolutely the worst thing to happen to the Democratic Party, in my opinion, because he represents a debacle in '04.

[x-g.o.p.er]

83. There is hope--from ex-Republicans of all people

Hey Walt,

Don't be depressed--your hour of redemption draweth nigh. I am an ex-Bush supporter who will vote democrat in '04. We are a rapidly expanding base of folks who are disgusted with the profligate spending and the trampling of the first amendment that has occurred under our former icon and mantle holder.

I am a lifelong Republican who thought, until a few months ago, that voting for democrats was like committing treason. Needless to say, I have changed my mind. Won't go into it here, but if you want to know why, I'd be happy to tell you. If anybody wants to know my reasons for conversion, I'd be happy to share them with you.

[liberalhistorian]

89. Good for you!

And please do share your conversion story, because we need to know how to reach people who are beginning to feel the same way as you about Bush, and people who still support him but are very uneasy about it.

[Eloriel]

110. I DEFINITELY want to hear your story

Can you start a new thread yet? (Probably ought to go in GD.)

Welcome to DU, too.

[ibegurpard]

36. Kerry, water-carrier for the DNC and DLC power-brokers

has been no friend to a campaign that actually proved it was possible to garner support outside of corporate and big-money donations. Therefore, I'm not sure why I should consider myself a friend to him.

[nolabels]

63. Being rational and pure at the same time is not always possible

I might vote for Kerry, but still might find it hard to get on that Kerry band wagon (but will if he gets the nomination). These are some of same problems Gore had; one cannot dance to the tunes of two or more bands at the same time. Some are hedging their bets, some are looking to get * out and some just uncomfortable with some with Dean positions (while other's love them also).

We are all part of system that some or many might not always agree with, but blaming one person for the way the entire system is just seems fool hardy.

Don't be confused, big money wants to keep things the way they are (or better for them). Kerry is a good vehicle to line money up against its self, if nothing else. Don't get too discouraged there advantages and disadvantages to everything.

Kerry will need lots of support and money to evict that squatter. Big time money are lining up for *. Unless them votes Kerry won that vote are fraudulent, I would say that those other people might have some ideals too

[NashVegas]

72. What Makes You Sure You'd Have Had an Opportunity?

How many threads have were there in this forum from Dean voters, when Dean was the frontrunner, desperately begging for support among those who'd aligned with other candidates?

Should Dean go back up in the polls, how many threads do you think you'll see in this forum from desperate Dean supporters begging for your help in the fashion Pete did?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

22. i was trying to save my money

to donate to the person who won the nomination but i broke down and donated to Howard Dean today.

just my 2 cents

[deutsey]

30. I'll vote for Kerry

I was an early supporter of his and still think he's all right. I wrote to him back in late 2001 and urged him to run...he wrote me back nice handwritten note thanking me.

However, I will be leaving the Democratic Party, probably even if Dean wins the nomination. This is what I was about to do until Dean's campaign convinced me to stay. I'm returning to being a small "d" democrat and will register as an Independent.

Until a new, viable party comes along to break the stranglehold the Dem/Repub establishment has on our system, I'll definitely vote Democratic, but the Party has lost me as an active member.

[in_cog_ni_to]

60. Me too.

I'm finished with this party if we cannot nominate an electable candidate. This year is WAY too important to put up a loser. :(

[wryter2000]

5. You could clarify something for me

I'm a Dean supporter who's ABB (as soon as you-know-who goes away). I'm all for Kerry. But you could answer one question for me.

I thought the DLC wanted You-know-who. Did they change their minds?

More important, seems to me the DLC kept telling me not to get angry. Not to rock the boat. Not to criticize the Chimp too loudly. That I can't abide. Doesn't seem to me that Kerry's asking me to do those things, or am I wrong? I won't support anyone who is going to run as "Bush was wrong on some things, but I'll do them better." Basically You-know-who's stance.

Thanks in advance for clarifying for me.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Walt Starr]

16. I have to admit, if LaRouche were the nominee

I would actually cast a vote for Bush. I could not risk LaRouche becoming the president.

[creativelcro]

7. earth to space station:

if you are so close to him you cannot judge him objectively. Sorry, same principle applies to medical diagnoses etc. You cannot trust your friends or people who are close to you.

[lancdem]

14. You've never met the guy

and you're more of an authority on him than Pete? So people who are close to Dean and support him are deluded also? By your logic that would be the case. Both assumptions are wrong, IMO.

[creativelcro]

40. I will never trust the judgment of a person who says "he knows the man"

It is too easy to be delusional about the man. it may sound strange, but it is true that doctors are worst at diagnosing their relatives. Why ? Don't they KNOW them better than the other patients ? Problem is that they know them too well that they go into denial about certain things. Because it hurts to recognize them. Same in every field. I never met Dean, and I have mainly an intellectual and second-hand anecdotal knowledge of what he stands for etc

[liberalhistorian]

15. So, using that same logic, the people who work closely

with Dean can't be trusted in their opinions of him because they work too closely with him? Sorry, doesn't work that way!

[creativelcro]

85. That's exactly right. I'm not listening to people who are "close"

to Dean

[CWebster]

10. Let me guess

It is another veiled loyalty oath in an effort to rally support around Kerry. Kerry has clawed his way back using insider media influence to target Dean and dark players--(Whouley, who won't even be photographed)utilizing dirty tricks and robo-calling to topple Dean. Kerry uses the Right's "angry"= "unelectible" memes to target Dean for his own advantage. It wasn't through his own merit that he gained momentum, but by cynical and deceptive manipulation. He nauseates me, politics or no politics. The only desperate measure he can pitch is ABB which means he really hasn't got what it takes to confront Bush with a tidal wave of support behind him.

No.

[Hoosier Democrat]

11. Thanks for the offer...

And I concur that you have been one of the most polite of the Kerry supporters. Thank you for your maturity.

If Gov Dean does not win the nomination (and that is starting to look like a real possibility), I cannot automatically give my support to Senator Kerry. This is not "Sour Grapes", but a decision based on several factors.

One of the most important of these is the war. One of the things that drew me to the Dean camp over a year ago was his outspoken opposition to the war. I have opposed this travesty from the start and will have a hard time supporting ANYBODY who voted for this resolution. Whether it was a "strategic vote" top avoid possible political flack or simply a fear of KKKArl Rove, there is no way to morally justify this vote. For many years, I coached high school in a working-class neighborhood. Many of "my kids" are over in Iraq now. I know it will only be a matter of time before one comes home in a coffin. How am I supposed to enthusiastically support anyone who may have contributed to a waste of a young life like this?

I will give Senator Kerry credit for FINALLY speaking out against this war (albeit, after public opinion had turned that way) as opposed to Senator Lieberman, whose continued support of the war I find morally reprehensible.

If Senator Kerry is the nominee, I wish him the best. Whether I vote for him or not has yet to be determined.

[ShimokitaJer]

18. I was originally fairly positive on Kerry

For all the reasons you mention. It was the dirty tricks campaigning that turned me off. You can chalk the behind the scenes deal with Gephardt in Iowa up to smart caucus politics, but between the push-polling in Iowa, the anti-Dean ads, and the anti-Dean and Clark fliers, I don't feel I can trust him. If he's such an amazing candidate, why doesn't he rely on his record rather than on dirty tricks?

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you believe these were the work of overzealous individuals within Kerry's campaign rather than the Kerry campaign itself. If so, I hope you will do the honorable thing and turn from Kerry if the allegations are eventually proved. But for me, the effects are already too far-reaching and the "coincidences" already too numerous to ignore. I can't bring myself to support Kerry.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

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[LuminousX]

20. John Kerry IS the Real Deal ... uhh...

Everytime I hear someone say this I think to myself, "If he is the 'Real Deal' why do I have to be told he is the 'Real Deal?'"

Let things work themselves out. I'm not abandoning Dean until Dean is no longer actively seeking the nomination.

[Eloriel]

111. And that always reminds me of a bad hamburger chain slogan

Sorry, but it's just silly.

[On the Road]

24. Thanks -- I Appreciate That

If Kerry is the nominee, I will definitely vote for him in November.

I hope all the positive things that have been said here about him are true. I am especially encouraged by his anti-corruption activities.

[mrgorth]

25. Kerry had better do something about this!

http://www.ndol.org/print.cfm?contentid=252334

[tnlefty]

46. I wonder how Kerry feels about being labeled a "Blair Democrat" who

has been vindicated?

[Armstead]

27. ABB but no enthusiasm for Kerry

Sure, if Kerry's the nominee will support him, but he won't get my enthusiasm.

Dean is not a wild eyed radical, and he was a responsible governor of a state. He's a moderate who dared to speak the truth about what has happened to this country.

But Kerry contributed to the media spin that Dean is "unelectable" because he is too "angry" and unstable and liberal, didn't believe the Iraq War was justified, spoke out about media concentration and acknowledged that "free trade" has ben a bust and needs to be re-evaluated.

[Hawkeye-X]

29. This Dean supporter refuses to support Kerry

based on his dirty tricks campaign, copycatting Dean, and stealing Dean's votes by push-polling, negative attacks and much more.

This Dean supporter thinks Kerry can go to hell.

Hawkeye-X

[Cheswick2.0]

100. this Dean supporter who has voted a straight Democratic ticket

every year since 1976 (when I started voting) will stay home on election day if Kerry is the nominee. I truly dislike Kerry and that dislike started way before I supported Dean.

[eissa]

32. ABB, baby!

I would LOVE to see Dean get the nod, but if not, I'd vote for any dem. Yes, I have issues with Kerry, especially the war vote (I won't go into all of this now as I'm beginning to feel like a broken record). Suffice to say that I just cannot handle the thought of 4 more years of this far-right, warmongering administration.

One commentator stated that when the democrats form a firing squad, they get in a circle. Well not this year! Record voter turn-outs (thanks in part to Dean), and (get ready for that word) anger towards this administration has energized us to TAKE BACK THE WHITE HOUSE!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

34. If Kerry hadn't abandoned the left, I wouldn't be abandoning him.

But, he did. Initially, he was my favorite candidate, even before he announced. Then he voted for the war.

He won't get my vote if he's nominated.

[ibegurpard]

39. He disgusted me long before that

Kerry operatives were on DU trashing Gore long before he dropped out.

[Justice]

35. Please Explain Why A Good and Decent Man Like Kerry

would say last September that Wesley Clark was a friend of his and that he would never say anything critical about him (CNN).

And then Kerry would blitz NH with misleading campaign flyers that were very critical of Wesley Clark (and Howard Dean).

Please explain what about this is good and decent.

Then please explain why Kerry would dismiss the entire discussion about Bush's military record on Crossfire by saying it was over the top -- leaving Clark out to dry --- and then a week later Kerry says he will hire PI to get to the bottom of it.

Please explain why Kerry talks so much about veterans and then disses a veteran like Wesley Clark. Why would Kerry not stand with Wes Clark as a veteran against people like Bob Dole?

If Kerry wants my active support, he needs to show a little profile in courage.

[IrateCitizen]

42. One small quibble, Pete...

First off, you know I admire your character and conviction in supporting John Kerry with as much sweat and money as you have. And your effort should be in no way diminished, because you have chosen a fine politician. But I have to take slight exception to the following statement:

For 35 years, he's been fighting tooth and nail for progressive causes.

John Kerry has been fighting for liberal causes, yes. But progressive causes? Not entirely. I am one who makes a distinction between the words "progressive" and "liberal", because definitions matter -- especially those founded in history. Liberals seek to maintain the status quo by tweaking it. Progressives seek much more fundamental -- even radical -- change. That is the big difference between the two.

John Kerry IS a liberal, and that much IS admirable. However, he is NOT a progressive. If you want to know the true meaning of what it means to be a progressive, read THIS.

The piece I cited does not come close to describing John Kerry. And while John Kerry is a liberal and an admirable man, he is not a progressive.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IrateCitizen]

54. No offense, Pete -- most people DO use them interchangeably

I just don't believe them to represent the same things. While there are many corrolaries between the two philosophies, there are also many differences.

[Sophree]

68. Nevertheless

Most DUer's political views more closely match Kerry's than Dean's. We would be lucky to have such a strong liberal like Kerry in the White House.

I hope some of you can get past all this nastiness and try to think about the alternative- 4 more years of B*sh. Our democracy would not survive. The B*sh Dynasty would grow even stronger. We MUST end their reign of terror, no matter who our nominee is.

And yes, even though I have strong reservations about Dean, I'd still vote for him if he becomes the nominee.

[IrateCitizen]

86. What are you talking about? Are you replying to my post?

Most DUer's political views more closely match Kerry's than Dean's. We would be lucky to have such a strong liberal like Kerry in the White House.

If you've ever seen any of the stuff I've written on these boards, you'd know that I am a Kucinich supporter -- not because I think he'll get the nod or is the most "electable", but because I think his vision is something that America sorely needs, and none of the other candidates are offering something similar. I only hope that whoever is the nominee listens to some of what he's saying, and adopts it into their own vision.

I hope some of you can get past all this nastiness and try to think about the alternative- 4 more years of B*sh. Our democracy would not survive. The B*sh Dynasty would grow even stronger. We MUST end their reign of terror, no matter who our nominee is.

Where did I express nastiness? I was simply attempting to point out what I perceived as a misrepresentation. And where did I ever say I would not enthusiastically support the Dem nominee, whoever it may be?

Well, if Lieberman were to win, he'd get my decidedly unenthusiastic support -- but I don't think I'll have to worry about that. ;-)

[bullimiami]

45. dean supporter

of course. ABB.
I, for one, didnt think it was a dlc conspiricy.

i do think the dlc would rather not have dean but my feeling was that the gore-ing came from the right and the media whores who serve them.

how much did the right spend on the anti dean ads in iowa again?

the dlc does support kerry and that is fine.

but kerry didnt claw his way back with sheer determination and focus.
he had a lot of help from those who were scared of dean and cleared him out for kerry to emerge.

we will see what happens. its early. firsr inning and kerry is up 4-2.
(remember dean got delagates in both states as well)

[Egnever]

47. Sory but no

I will not reward the IWR enablers in any way. I may hold my nose and vote for him but it will be because bush is horible not because of anything positive about john kerry.

If Kerry wins the nomination I will reject the democratic party from here on in. The ends they have gone to to take dean down have sickened me. and why did they do this? Because they wanted to retain thier power.

No sorry Kerry does nothing to inspire me in fact he repulses me he will say anything to get elected and pull any dirty trick in the book at the same time. The man is scum in my book and represents everything that is wrong with washington.

If he gets the nod he will have to depend on peoples level of disgust with bush to be higher than thier level of disgust with him.

No thanks not when there is a clear choice of somoene that has proven he is willing to stand up and fight for what is right.

[Monte Carlo]

49. Is this your first primary or what?

Because no campaign is ever above dirty tricks. Dean is not anything above and beyond the fray. If you can't recognize a candidates strengths outside of the primary process, then you are going to tire very quickly.

P.S.: Careful with that term "enabler". It's a dangerous, tricky standard.

[dsc]

55. show me a tape of Dean push polling then you have a point

Kerry got caught doing exactly that.

[saracat]

90. Carol Mosley Braun

I wonder what the Dean people think of the Campaign not paying the staffers for two weeks but continuing to pay Carol Mosley Braun $20,000 a month for her endorsement? And what about hiring Roy Neel, the ultimate insider? Do these things bother anyone?

[Egnever]

61. So your answer is

Its OK cause everyone else does it?

My dislike for Kerry goes way beyond his scummy tactics. I happen to be disgusted with his vote on IWR. I happen to be disgusted with his vote on the patriot act. I happen to be disgusted with his missed votes in the senate this year. I am disgusted by this man in so many way I cant even begin to list them all.

His resulting to osama ads and phone calls pushing the Idea that dean is a wife beating abortionists is only the beginning of my disgust with this man.

[Walt Starr]

62. Not only all that, but history says John Kerry is unelectable

Read my sig and do the math.

[aldian159]

71. all those incumbents the above lost to

Were in far better position then dubya.

McGovern = too left, scared away middle America

Goldwater = anyone who says "I'm gonna nuke North Vietnam" has no chance

Stevenson = Ike was still the war hero

Mondale = Reagan was still the brave man who solved the 70's mess and got shot doing it

Dole = The GOP looked like shit for shutting the government down, and when you couple that with the fact that Bubba is one of, if not the, best politicans of our era, no GOP would have won.

[Walt Starr]

79. Not from where I sit

Kerry as a candidate will make it easy for Bush to win, IMO. the problem with running an insider against an incumbent is he has a record to compare directly to the incumbant.Too many times Kerry can be shut down because he voted on the same side as Bush.

An insider is considered to be a Congressperson or a Senator. To date I have not found a single case of an insider defeating an incumbant president, not one in the entire history of the United States.

So please, tell me the last insider to defeat an incumbant. Every instance I have found of an insider running against an incumbant has resulted in defeat.

[Monte Carlo]

74. History cannot predict the unprecedented.

If we listened to history non-stop, nothing new would ever happen.

[Monte Carlo]

73. No, it's...

... all part of American politics. Holier-than-thou attitudes are going to change nothing.

You allow yourself to be disgusted. Again, is this your first primary or what?

Those weren't his ads, those weren't his calls, BTW.

[dsc]

77. HIs employee was caught on tape

His campaign manager said it was true. Just whose calls were they?

[Monte Carlo]

78. Well we all have our zealots...

... who say stupid things, but that's no reason to label an entire campaign.

[waldenx]

50. after all the Dean bashing

where do you get the nerve to ask such a thing?

[cthrumatrix]

53. from the team (DNC) which did "osama ads vs Dean in December in Iowa

get lost DNC and Kerry and Gep...can go fly a kite

[RedEarth]

51. I'm a Clark supporter and hope that he is the nominee, however

if he isn't I will strongly support the Dem candidate. Our country CANNOT go through another 4 years of a bush administration. I cringe to think what would happen if this monster is in office another term. Frankly, it scares the sh.. out of me. What other countries would he invade, how much more would he give to big corporations, what would Ash croft do with another four years, what would happen to the environment, health care, the list could go on forever.

Four more years of bush would do immeasurable damage not only to our country, but also the rest of the world. We cannot let that happen! There is too much at stake. I too, plead with the supporters of any candidate that does not win the nomination, to let bygones be bygones and actively support the Democratic nominee. We have too much to lose if bush is re-elected.

Please people.......let's kick this SOB out of office!!!!!!1

[CTLawGuy]

52. if kerry is nominated

I will not vote for him... He ran the dirtiest campaign ever and then won in a state full of morons who "don't like negative campaigning". he can go fuck himself.


I could vote for Edwards or Clark.

[saracat]

56. Hypocrisy in the Dean Camp

I cannot understand the double standards that are displayed by the Dean Camp.I am ABB but I find it interesting that Dean who has no tolerance for John Kerry's War vote finds it acceptable to take an endorsement from Tom Harkin who also voted for the War. By the same token Kerry is being endorsed by Ted Kennedy who opposed the war! And now Trippi is gone and replaced by the ultimate Washington insider Roy Neel! You cannot claim to status of outsider and surround yourself with the establishment staff and endorsements. A candidate must be consistent with his statements. The actions must match the deeds, and Gov. Dean's actions don't match his words.I am also appalled that any Dean supporter on this Board would express the thought ,that they would not vote for Kerry ,should he be the nominee. The Governor himself has expressed support for whomever the eventual nominee should be, even if it should not be himself. If the stated intent of the Dean Campaign, and all the campaigns, is to get rid of Bush then we should unite behind the nominee whomever they are. To effectively punish the entire country by sentencing us to another four years of Bush because of a personal resentment of any one of the candidates would make such a person a traitor to the cause of liberty ,and no better than the GOP, who vote only for their own advantage.Just my two cents worth of opinion!

[NoPasaran]

58. At this point I can't get enthusiastic about Kerry

But I'm as ABB as anyone.

I honestly feel that the Dean campaign is still our best hope for some real change in this country. But at the very least we have to get the Bush junta out of office before our republic is totally destroyed.

Every candidate has strengths and weaknesses. I have to give Kerry a lot of credit for turning things around after the punditocracy declared him dead a few months ago. I still believe that the Dean campaign has the capability to do the same.

Until the convention I plan to stick with Dean. After that, LET'S GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!

[Strapping Buck]

59. Kerry is just Bush in Dem clothing...

Oh sure, isn't that great. We can all vote for Kerry and go from a current president who wanted this war to a future president who voted for it.

This party, once again, is about to move itself right back to the center-- which is really the right.

[nolabels]

76. About this time some on the right are even starting look like.............

Well I won't go that far, but rest assured, * is starting to feel the meltdown with them. Kerry knows he made a mistake there with the Iraq thing, but being of the Patrician class would never admit it. This won't be a issue in a the GE for obvious reasons. Don't be disgruntled, this is the compromise big money gave to us over *.

Many people on this board have been saying this would probably go on for a long time now. I don't know why anybody is surprised about any of this. To get over it, we have to change the system, getting angry at other people won't fix it, or help anybody in the end.

Kerry is not the devil incarnate, he is just another politician from Yale :-)

[Strapping Buck]

81. Thanks for the good thoughts...

I'm not really mad at anyone. It's just that I'm saddened every time I see a Democrat with truly liberal, progressive ideas get squashed by his/her own party at the national level. I've said it elsewhere on this board and other discussion forums that Democrat Party, at the national level, is just Republican-lite. They think they have to be to retain the votes of all those union/hunter/rural type folks in the red states that still vote Democrat for a variety of reasons. For us liberals who want real, dynamic change in this country-- progressive change-- well, we just get pushed to the sidelines when nearing the end of the game. It's like they use us to get momentum, and then cast us aside when it really counts and they want to appear "moderate"-- or as I like to call it, "Repuke-lite". After all, they know we have no where else to go. I thought Nadar scared them enough last time that they wouldn't do the same thing this time around. Boy, was I wrong. As soon as the national media and others started criticizing Dean as "too liberal", the national party abandoned him and his fellow Democratic contenders grouped up and played dirty politics against him.

[nolabels]

84. I think we are only touching the tip of the tentacle of the monster below

These folks didn't buy up all the media outlets so they could talk among themselves, their plan is to tell the rest of us what reality looks like. It's up to us common Jane's and Jose to tell them that's not the way it works
Things have changed a lot really, we just don't see them because we want to see the other things we could have. I don't really think we know who any of these folks are really then also they seem to change a lot when they take that office.

[InvisibleTouch]

67. Agreed

Hey Pete ... yes, I will be bitterly disappointed if Dean loses the nomination. But I will slap myself out of it and continue on. Kerry doesn't inspire me (no offense), but as I learn more about him, I can see where he does represent a lot of my views. Your personal insight is valuable because I think a lot of us are ultimately looking for the "real deal" in a nominee and a President. I just prefer someone who's more emotional and outspoken. :) But not to worry - I won't be sitting back saying "My guy or nobody."

[Ramsey]

80. Not impressed with Kerry

I actually liked Kerry at first. Before Dean entered the race (or at least before I knew about him), I took a look at Kerry and thought he'd be my top choice. It is Kerry himself who has driven me away. Even when I decided to support Dean (about a year ago), I still liked Kerry. It has been his own behavior that has turned me off.

In particular while the vote for the IWR and the Patriot Act concern me, it is his constant flip-flopping and restating on issues like these makes him look like the worst political opportunist. I have been very unimpressed with his campaign and his public appearances, both when it was floundering and now that he's on top. He is drab and uninspiring, the "safe, insider" for sure. Which is why he will surely lose to Bush.

He opportunistically uses what he can get his hands on and there are allegations, as mentioned above, of dirty tricks. Why should I support someone who stoops to Repuke tactics?

Will I vote for Kerry? Sure. But I will not donate to his campaign or give him my precious time and energy. Those intangibles are not automatically transferable. I would for Clark or Edwards, but not Kerry.

The bottom line is that I will be very disillusioned if Dean fails, especially if it is partly due to dirty tricks and bad-mouthing on the part of the Kerry campaign.

[Casablanca]

87. The ABB mentality is still in effect ...

I'm pretty sure most Dean supporters will support Kerry to the hilt if he gets the nomination.

[RetroLounge]

88. Not a freaking chance in hell...

Screw him, let him twist in the wind.

[FarLeftRage]

92. Sorry dude, no can do...

His supporters on DU by their words and actions have left me totally cold to your suggestion.

Do you know how many people I have on my ignore list, because of this?

I really miss the "old" DU, where people respected each other...but that is no more.

[freetempe]

95. I can't support Kerry

IF he is the nominee. I could support Clark or even Edwards maybe, but not Kerry and here's why.

Kerry represents everything that is wrong with the Democratic Party. He changes his beliefs whenever he thinks it will do him the most good. Back in 2002 he was all for the Iraq War Resolution, then when the war was going good, he was still all for it. Then, when Howard Dean became popular for opposing the war, Kerry changed his stance. When Howard Dean spoke up against special interests, making him popular to the progressives in the party, Kerry stole his stump speach and became Mr. Anti-special interest. Kerry is all things to all people if you were to believe his supporters on this board. In fact, he is an empty-suit Washington insider elitist who will say whatever he needs to say to get elected. I'm tired of politicans like that in my party. I want someone who will stand up for what they believe in even if it may not be popular.

Howard Dean is trying to change not only the country, but our party as well. If Kerry steals this thing with AMPLE help from the whore media and his well connected Washington insiders, I will be even more disillusioned that I was in 2000 and 2002. I will leave the party. I am tired of being shut out of my own party and then expected to vote for who the establishment picks for us. I will not do it.

The last four years sucked, no doubt about it, but I am comfortable in surviving another four years if it meant real change in the Democratic Party. How many more times can the DLC and DNC lose before they change their ways? I guess we'll find out.

[MercutioATC]

112. Thanks for putting it so well. That's my issue, Kerry doesn't equal change

If I was happy with the some old stuff, I'd have saved my money and effort and done other things. I became involved because I saw a chance to elect a candidate who would really make a difference.

Kerry obviously isn't that candidate...

[Pantherman]

96. Dean's turn around

How can someone go from 24% to 12% in one week? Tell me how can that happen? if dean wants to win he needs to watch what he is doing.
my info came from http://www.pollingreport.com/wh04dem.htm

[Polemonium]

97. Respectfully no

Kerry and his peers will still be working to protect their 10 million dollar houses. The bottom line Kerry is good for corporate America, and Kerry has proven again and again that he will lock out common Americans to keep them from being represented.

[Abigail147]

103. So the fix is already in? Again?

Dean does not roll over and neither we. That is some nice sweet talking though.You are pretty good.

[Andy_Stephenson]

98. Was the IWV

ewvidence of him fighting?

How about Patriot Act?

Homeland Gestapo?

Those are progressive ideas? If so this progressive will not be voting for Kerry.

[bobbyboucher]

99. Save it.

It's way to early to be telling Dean suppoerters, or anyone else's how great your guy is and why we should jump on his bandwagon. I like Kerry, but it ain't over by a longshot.

[mzmolly]

101. Please quit asking me to join YOU. Join Deans campaign he's

the best man for the job.

[TopesJunkie]

104. A fine plea, but I am ABK --

Until the primaries are over, I am ABK all the way. I'll vote for Kerry if he's the nominee. But I don't think my vote will matter.

[dreissig]

105. Remembering 1968

In 1968 we had horrible choices - either Humphrey or Nixon. Many of us lost interest in politics then, because the game was rigged. If the 1968 scenario happens again, look for a repeat.

Representative democracies do not work when huge blocs of voters are disenfranchised. John Kerry no more represents me than Hubert Humphrey did. And Bush and Nixon are essentially one and the same person.

Don't want 1968 all over again? Don't nominate Kerry.

[Zinnola]

106. I will not vote for Kerry

For many of the reasons listed above and because the DLC is backing him. I will vote third party or write in Dean before voting Kerry. I will support Clark and Edwards.

[Walt Starr]

107. Let's just say

after today, there is absolutely no way I will be voting for Kerry on November 2nd. I would vote for Ralph Nader before I did that and I despise Nader.

[Eloriel]

108. Oh, please, Pete

That's just...I'm sorry, that's insulting. After what Dean supporters have been through here on DU?

It's also insulting because Kerry is NOT the man you think he is -- or at least what you describe is NOT what I see. Maybe he does have strong convictions, but IMO they're mostly about himself. His narcissism is WELL known and we already have one of those in the White House, why would we want to replace him with one? His narcissism is so well known the Boston papers have been writing about it for years: "live shot Kerry."

And I'm sorry, but while I found Kerry fairly unattractive personally, any man who would undergo botox and silicon/fat (whatever) is just too shallow and self-absorbed to be President.

I also can't forgive someone who would send Americans to die in a foreign land, depleted uranium and all, for his own political ambitions. And no, his "nuanced" explanations don't wash. It was pure political calculus -- you DON'T give a would-be dictator that much power and not expect it to be misused. He had a responsibility, the most crucial one any Senator can have IMO, and he chose his career over the good of Americans and our nation, not to mention the Constitution.

Please don't insult our intelligence, or dismiss so trivially our mistreatment here at DU and try to make nice.

If you really want Kerry to get my vote -- EVER, for anything -- here (for the umpteenth time) is what he has to do. Take him this message: A renunciation of his vote and a sincere and profound apology -- to Americans, to Iraqis, and to the world -- is the only possible way he can "explain" his IWR vote. And my willingness to forgive is both way more than most people get from me and way more than he deserves. And you might tell him to get some therapy and get over himself.

[feckerman]

109. Your not getting me :)

John Edwards is my next choice, in fact, he may soon be my first. Paging Dr. Dean.