Ralph Nader will run if Dean doesn't win!

[Meldread]

Alright let's assume the worst case scenario. Kerry wins the nomination and Nader launches a campaign. Whispers and rumors are that Kerry is thinking about forgetting about the South because he doesn't have a chance there. (I think most sane and rational people realize this.)

This would mean Kerry would focus on the West, North, and East... and maybe Florida.

Now let's remember 2000. Let's say Nader enters the race. If Kerry is our nominee it's going to be a close fight and Nader will tip the balance toward Bush. We will lose and we will have another 4 years of Bush. War with North Korea might become imminent. Nuclear Weapons might go off for the first time in the history of the world. Our economy will spiral out of control, and the value of the dollar will plummet. Our Country would begin to implode.

Nader said he will run if Dean does not win, and from the way things look the Dean campaign is on shaky ground.

I think it's time for all of us to unite behind Dean and donate to him. Donate as a protest that says "No to Nader!" Despite the differences between us and our candidates Nader running against Kerry will almost certainly tip the scale in Bush's favor.

Forward this message to your friends. Begin circulating it around via E-mail and message boards. Let it be known that Nader is going to run if Dean doesn't win, and that will certainly spell another 4 years of Bush. Dean needs your help and right now he needs money to continue his advertising campaign.

You can donate here: http://www.deanforamerica.com/blogcontribute

Support Dean and say No To Nader!

EDIT: Here is a source for the story. There is something more up-to-date and I am looking for it. Click here.

[Monte Carlo]

1. Do we really know this?

To my knowledge, Nader has said little to nothing about Kerry or Dean, but mainly Kucinich or Lieberman. Do you have a link?

[WilliamPitt]

2. Empty threat on Nader's part

[waylon]

3. Picking nits

"Nuclear Weapons might go off for the first time in the history of the world"


Hirsohima, Nagasaki....I get your point though

[KuroKensaki]

14. Well..

There's something of a difference. Those were regular old atomic bombs. Not very scary compared to what we've got today. Let's rephrase--The first time a -thermonuclear- weapon will be used in combat.

The Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs were if I'm not mistaken 15 kilotons each. Our modern thermonuclear bombs go up to somewhere around 200 megatons, someone correct me if I'm wrong?

13,000 Big Boys. In one fiery blast.

[KuroKensaki]

17. Note...

My post above was to show how scary Bush is.

Which is not a reason to support Dean, it's a reason to support ABB.

Preach it!

[waylon]

45. I get you

Perhaps I picked nits too quickly :)

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

20. Absolutely correct...

If one of our current nukes landed on, for perspective purposes, Washington DC, everything from Atlanta to New York would be in deep, deep trouble.

[Tinoire]

4. Nader never promised not to run for Dean- that was for Kucinich

I am curious about your source for this because I thought Nader made that very clear.

[blm]

5. Doubt it. Nader and Kerry are bonded in some very important ways.

First, they were both targets of NIxon.

They worked together on investigating IranContra iand sharing nformation when the powerstructures in DC were trying to shut the hearings down prematurely.

Kerry is the best environmentalist of all the candidates.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

15. and Dean is not too good on the environment. He's against the Kyoto

Treaty was very pro-corporation in Vermont - cozied up with Enron and other energy companies. He would have to be a hypocrite of massive proportions to jump on the Dean bandwagon. The only thing Dean is liberal on is the war and gay unions.

[Rose Siding]

48. That isn't so

Dean supports Kyoto and he ordered tougher restrictions in VT than even Kyoto required.

--Reengaging with the international community and restoring our nation's role as a global leader on environmental issues. For instance, recognizing the threat of global warming, Dean believes we must work toward a Kyoto Protocol we can adopt. Dean believes the agreement should be strengthened to include carbon pollution reductions by developing nations as well as developed nations.
http://www.deanforamerica.com/press/environment/2003/07/31/environmental_strategy/


Tough Emissions Standards- Governor Dean ordered emission controls Vermont to be more stringent than those required by the Kyoto Protocols. He has worked consistently and closely with the New England states to sue the Midwestern states to reduce coal emissions.
http://www3.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_record_environment

[rpf113]

61. Nader has proved...

willing to attack anybody--even his former closest allies--in his crazy crusades. Kerry will be no different. I'm sure we'll be hearing "there is no difference between Kerry and Bush" soon enough.

[eileen_d]

6. "whispers and rumors" indeed!

I'd like to see one shred of evidence for these assertions:
1) Kerry is thinking about forgetting about the South (that would be ignorant; I don't think Kerry is a fool)
2) Nader said he will run if Dean does not win (I thought Nader preferred Kucinich as a candidate?)
3) If Kerry is our nominee... Nader will tip the balance towards Bush (I don't think Nader would garner the support he did in 2000; I also think the 2004 election will be close no matter which Dem gets the nomination)

As for getting behind Dean and donating to him... Dean won't get any of my money unless he is nominated. If he does, I'll max out for him; but I'll spend money on products I like until then. (so far these "products" include Clark and Kucinich)

[CWebster]

7. Well I guess he would suspect

that there were possibly some votes to be had.

[KuroKensaki]

8. Nader isn't to blame

Nader is not to blame if people vote for him. People voting for him is a signal that they are disillusioned with the Democratic candidate or the party as a whole.

I don't like Kerry and I do like Dean, but saying that Kerry's nomination will make Nader run, and that Nader running will make us lose, are two stretches I'm not willing to make.

Bush will lose, don't worry. If we watch carefully and make sure Diebold doesn't screw us over. Bush has managed to piss off conservatives on top of the liberals he'd already alienated. It's only a matter of time before his support base erodes and he's left with only the top 5% behind him.

And as we all know, 5% of the population doesn't win an election.

However, I DO agree that if Bush gets the White House in 2004, this country, if not the world, is coming to an end. Literally. Even if he doesn't manage that within 4 years, he will turn us into a one-party system and therefore have all the time in the world to kill us all.

George W. Bush's administration is as bad as Hitler's. Kaboom. I said it and unlike Soros I'm not sorry about it. We MUST dethrone him. It is imperative, if we love our country and our world. But I'm optimistic, whoever the candidate ends up being.

Kuro

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

22. Completely untrue

I wish I had that 5% back in Florida or several other states!

Nader made his point. Is he really stupid enough to run again and jeopardize ALL of his ideals in order to reinforce a point he already made in 2000?

Further, are we stupid enough not to go to this guy and offer him some kind of high level cabinet position if he'd just stay on the sidelines?!?? EPA chief, Secy of Labor, anything outside of State and Defense and I'd give it to him just to make sure he doesn't run!

[Iverson]

24. completely untrue

You seem to believe that Gore didn't win in 2000.
Foaming at Nader may be fashion. Heaven knows that it doesn't stop here for longer than 25 minutes at a time. However, that doesn't make it accurate.

Take comfort in affiliation with the majority that shows little concern over electoral fraud.

[Meldread]

31. Yep.

"Nader made his point. Is he really stupid enough to run again and jeopardize ALL of his ideals in order to reinforce a point he already made in 2000?"

Yep. He'll run again because he believes that "it has to get a lot worse before it gets any better". So basically in his mind if Dean or Dennis doesn’t win the nomination he's going to say "well I guess it just has to get worse". So he's going to run just so Bush will win and we'll get stuck with him for another 4 years. He likes Dennis more than Dean, but has said in so many words that Dean is "good enough" that he won't run. Mostly because he stood up against the War in Iraq and the Patriot Act two things Kerry supported.

[VelmaD]

9. Oh spare me...

I will not "unite behind Dean" out of fear of Ralph Nader running. :eyes:

If that's the best reason you can come up with for why I should change my support you're gonna have to try harder.

If you want to protest Nader...then don't vote for him and convince others to do the same.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

10. Really!

It was Kucinich that Nader favors, but you don't see Kucinich supporters trying to blackmail people into supporting their candidate by threatening the prospect of a Nader run.

We "extremist radicals" are, as far as I know, all willing to support the eventual Democratic nominee.

[VelmaD]

12. Absolutely!

Dennis K is the candidate I support in my heart. And you sure don't see him or his supporters pulling this crap.

I love Dennis (and I really like Kerry too) but I'm voting for the Dem nominee come hell or high-water or (goddess forbid) Lieberman. :-) ABB all teh way baybee.

[Rowdyboy]

Thanks, Lydia, for calling it what it is-BLACKMAIL!!!

Hell, no, I will not bow to any threat from Ralph Nader. Not now, not tomorrow, not ever. His opinion and his decisions will have NO effect on my vote.

[KuroKensaki]

19. Um..

They were saying that the poster was blackmailing us, not Nader.

[Rowdyboy]

53. Months ago Nader implied that he will run unless

Kucinich is nominated. That close enough to blackmail for me. The poster seems to imply that Nader feels the same way about Dean. I don't know if its true or not, but I reject blackmail from either other supporters of candidates or from Ralph Nader. He's more than welcome to run. Have at it. And anyone who would attempt to blackmail the Democratic party is welcome to join him.

[diamondsoul]

58. That is what Nader himself has said.

I don't consider it blackmail, myself, just a discussion of the situation as it's been presented.

The OP of this thread, however IS blackmail.

Number one it's based on fallacious representation of the person being discussed- Nader has NEVER said he wouldn't run against Howard Dean, despite speaking well of the candidate.

Number two, I've never seen any Kucinich supporter attempt to make the same claim (though it's been a while since I viewed the threads you mention) that people should support Kucinich PURELY to thwart Nader. In point of fact, most Kucinich supporters would say if Nader thinks his voice is needed, let the man run!

For my own part, I wrote Nader and asked him to please consider helping the country and publicly endorsing Kucinich.*shrug* That's where I see him saving his own reputation and helping the United States too.

[cindyw]

11. I think i can say with total confidence that if Nader tries to run in the

manner he did before, the democrats in this country, people like us not the leadership, are going to pull an Al Franken on his ass.

In a manner of speaking of course.

[Karmadillo]

13. Nader will run unless my mom agrees ASAP to raise my allowance.

He's not kidding! Email my mom NOW and DEMAND she save America from four more years of Bush war crimes.

[eileen_d]

16. LOL! Buy my Amway products or Nader will run!

:crazy:

[Loonman]

18. Prima Donna Nader wants to hand the GOP another victory

Get lost, Ralph.

[KuroKensaki]

26. Nuh uh.

Nader did not lose that election for the Democrats, at least he wasn't solely responsible. That loss was equal parts Katherine Harris, the Supreme Court, Ralph Nader, and Al Gore (for losing in his own home state).

Since the only two of those to do anything -illegal- or -immoral- were Katherine Harris and the Supreme Court, I say--blame them.

[Iverson]

21. Look! There goes a UFO!

:eyes:

[dolstein]

23. Somebody shoot me before I kill myself!!!!

Sorry, but threatening to run as a third party candidate unless the Dems nominate someone who is incapable of defeating Bush isn't a threat that's worth taking seriously.

[NNN0LHI]

25. Playing the old Ralph card are you?

Last I heard he was checking into some bad calls a referee made at a basketball game. Fuck Ralph and the horse he rode in on.

Don

[HuckleB]

27. I'm a Dean supporter, but this is a poor argument.

Nader has nothing to do with us, at this time. We shall choose our nominee regardless of him and his threats.

[sangh0]

28. I don't believe you

You have no link to Nader's (supposed) statement. The only link you offer is to donate money to Dean.

[Meldread]

29. I edited it.

And placed the link in the original message.

The fact of the matter is Kerry isn't going to get a single Southern State, and if Nader decides to run you might as well remove some of those swing states. Especially with Bush and Nader pulling "Kerry voted for the Patriot Act, he voted for the Iraq War, he voted for No Child Left Behind... etc." Bush will kill Kerry for being "more liberal than Ted Kennedy" while Nader shoots Kerry with "being too far to the right".

It sucks, but it's true. That's why I say you better donate to Dean cause if Kerry wins it's all over before it even starts.

[KuroKensaki]

30. I'm sorry

Sorry I doubted you. That looks official.. It does seem strange, because it's nothing like what I normally see from the Green Party.

Sort of like www.kucinich.com perhaps?

I don't know and I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. I think it would be foolish for Ralph to run, but I also can't fault him for it. It's ideals. I used to hold those once.

[Iverson]

33. Please note.

The Illinois Green Party that placed that article on their website credited the original source, The Wall Street Journal online.

[sangh0]

38. Please note

that the article doesn't support the initial posts claims that "Nader said" he will run if Dean is not the nominee.

[Iverson]

40. sure ...

... but you had already noted that earlier on this thread. Redundancy would be repetitive and also provide the same information over and over, causing us to read it again.

[sangh0]

42. Look at the poster you responded to

who seems to think that Meldread has proven her assertion. SO far, there is still no evidence that Nader made such a statement. If you don't like reading my repetitions, put me on ignore.

I won't complain

[Iverson]

44. Hey, I don't mind.

You repeat all you like. I just don't necessarily think there's something wrong if I fail to repeat your comments.

[KuroKensaki]

43. Oops!

Thanks for pointing that out, I had missed it entirely. That's like the conservative pundits always quoting the Weekly Standard...

[Meldread]

34. I'm scared.

I don't want another 4 years of Bush. I don't want to know what will happen to this country -- the world -- after 4 more years of Bush. Dean needs money and things aren't going as well as we all hoped. I don't believe Kerry can win in the General Election, but right now it looks like he might win the Nomination.

It's not just about Dean -- it's about getting rid of Bush.

[sangh0]

32. I still don't believe you. I'm even more suspicious than before

In your intial post you claimed that "Nader said he will run if Dean does not win"

The link you supplied has no such statement from Nader.

[Meldread]

35. As I have said...

That link isn't as current as the one I am looking for. I saw it mentioned in another thread on this board and remember reading it. I googled and found that but I am looking for something more current. Nader said he had to "think about it" -- that was over a month ago. I can almost swear on my mothers grave that a day or two ago there was something said in the News about Nader running if Dean doesn't win.

[sangh0]

36. IMO, that doesn't help your case

You made a claim that Nader *said* he will run if Dean isn't the nominee. So far, the only Nader statements you have posted indicate the opposite. And still, you keep insisting that your priginal claim was accurate

Wouldn't it have been more reasonable to have the links BEFORE you made the claim. So far, all we have to go on is your memory of what someone said on the Internet.

"someone on the Internet" is NOT a credible source

[sangh0]

56. Meldread, did you find the link

or will you admit Nader never said it?

[diamondsoul]

59. Nope.

No quote has ever been provided that Ralph Nader would refuse to run against Howard Dean, period. It was never said, and never quoted, sorry.

He HAS said that about Dennis Kucinich, and he HAS PRAISED Governor Dean, but that's all. Sorry to ruin your premise.

[mrgorth]

37. Good

I want to vote against the DLC.

[Renew Deal]

39. Screw Nader and his blind threats.

He's a loser. People thought it was cool to vote for Nader. I wonder if those people now think Bush is cool too.

[jsw_81]

41. Screw Nader

I'm confident that Kerry will beat Bush even if Nader does decide to run. Most of Nader's supporters from 2000 now see how important it is to get Bush out of the White House as soon as possible. The only ones stupid enough to vote Nader in 2004 are clueless college kids and radical leftists who wouldn't have voted for Dean, either.

And you've got to be joking if you want me to give any money to the mortally wounded Dean campaign; that would be like flushing it down the toilet.

[Meldread]

47. Actually...

Allow me to paint the mental picture of what will happen.

Karl Rove is on the right. He is saying that Kerry is a far left liberal, distorting his record by telling half truths. Bush has a much more engaging personality, and Rove uses that against Kerry. Rove begins to leak how Kerry may have used dirty tricks to win the nomination. (I.E. Writing E-mails to Dean Supporters and telling them that they need more people to come to New Hampshire, but didn't want gay people because of the confined sleeping quarters.) This enrages the former hard-core ABB Dean supporters and they will most likely sit home.

Then on the left you have Nader. He attacks Kerry saying he's too far to the right. He points out that Kerry voted for the Patriot Act, the Iraq War Resolution, the Medicare bill, No Child Left Behind -- the list goes on and on... and then finally finishes with his famous "There is no difference between Kerry and Bush" statement.

Factor in that Kerry isn't what you'd call a man who can really stand up for what he believes in -- because it changes with the flavor of the month. Then you watch him flip flop back and forth on the issues.

The people who vote will be hard-core ABB Bush haters (mostly people like us on these boards) while the rest say "Screw it" and stay home. No matter what Kerry does he'll lose.

Of course Nader doesn't even have to run for that to happen -- he just has a slightly better chance of winning if Nader doesn't.

Oh, and don't forget the Media. You think Dean's Iowa speech was over played? That's nothing. Every fumble Kerry makes -- and like it or not he will make them -- will be burned into the American mind.

[jsw_81]

50. And your brilliant solution is to nominate Howard Dean?

Let's review his record for a moment, shall we? In addition to the infamous scream heard 'round the world, Dean has:

- Told interviewers that he suffered from panic attacks and needed counseling while serving as governor.
- Called for open, honest government while simultaneously ordering his own records sealed in a vault for an unprecedented ten years.
- Offended the African-American community by courting the votes of southerners who fly the Confederate flag.
- Offended Christians by making a laughable attempt to inject God into his formerly secular campaign.
- Offended Jews by calling for "equal treatment" of Israel and Palestinian terrorist bombers.
- Baffled (and offended) nearly everyone by saying that Osama bin Laden deserves a fair trial in an American court.
- Said that Iraq was better off under Saddam Hussein.

Oh, and he also made jokes about his son's arrest for burglary and kept his wife hidden until the very last days of his campaign. Face it: Howard Dean is Karl Rove's dream come true; today's news about how the "fiscally conservative" Dean campaign squandered $40 million will only make things worse. So you'll have to excuse me if I take my chances with Senator Kerry.

[KuroKensaki]

60. Points..

1) Damaging.
2) Damaging, but manageable--supposedly the records he sealed were for the purposes of Vermont residents' privacy.
3) The Confederate flag dealie is generally forgotten, as far as I can tell.
4) I didn't see him try to inject God into his campaign.
5) Palestine (-not- Palestinian terrorist bombers... contrary to what you might think, not all Palestinians are terrorists) does deserve equal treatment.
6) Osama bin Laden does deserve a fair trial. EVERYONE deserves a fair trial. Nuremburg was a lasting triumph for international law and justice because it was a fair trial. Stalin and Churchill just wanted to take the Nazis out back and shoot them.
7) I don't think he said that--I think what he said was that they were no -worse- off under Hussein. He's also said that we're no safer now than we were before the invasion, in fact that we're less safe. Both of which are true statements.

And lastly, just because you don't want to see him get the nomination doesn't make his campaign a 'squandering' of money.

[styersc]

46. Nader has pissed off the National Green party and he will

have to crawl around on his hands and knees, begging each individual state organization to put him on the ballot. We can stop him. Dems have to show up to Green conventions around the country and stop Nader (which is really Nader, Inc.).

[Terwilliger]

52. I see...Dems should use Repukes tricks to stop Nader

wonderful democratic sentiment! :eyes:

[On the Road]

49. Nader Would Be Toast

Independent candidates don't get second chances. Perot dropped. Pat Buchanan dropped. Wallace dropped. Nader will get less than 1% and the Democratic nominee won't even have to compete. And if he doesn't run Green Party (as I've heard rumored), he won't even have a recognized organization behind him.

It could still cause a "Florida" to happen in a close election, but by that logic the Democratic Socialist candidate caused Gore to lose by getting 2,000 votes. I hope Nader is smart enough to realize this.

[jsw_81]

51. Excellent point

Unless the Democratic nominee just collapses right before the election (unlikely), Nader would probably get no more than one percent of the vote.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

54. Nader never said that.... where are you getting that idea?

He gives a few praises to the people that make up Dean's support. I see no reason why Nader would not run if a corporatist like Dean was the nominee. Nader has actually said there would be less reason fro him to run if KUCINICH was the nominee. Since Kucinich truly offers an alternative.

TWL

[eileen_d]

55. Ralph Nader will run if you don't eat your vegetables!

So clear your plate, kiddies!

[corporatewhore]

57. I rember Nader saying He would not run if Kucinich or Sharpton got it!