pregnancy CAN kill you

[mopinko]

it always changes your body forever. for the worse. women die all the time from complications of pregnancy and child birth. do prolifers think it is ok to tell other people that they have to risk their life and health to take care of someone else? maybe we should start mandating that people give blood once a month then. that would save a lot of lives. maybe we should all be mandated to donate our organs at death. life is important, right. you are dead, what do you care. in the meantime, maybe we should all have to register now, and give a sample so the our compatibility can be determined now. makes it all more efficient, ya know. maybe if you prove to be compatible with someone who is really "worth saving", you should be compelled to give bone marrow, or a little piece of you liver, or that redundant kidney.
or maybe prolife is really about something else. and maybe opening this door will lead to all of the above. draw the line at NO- THIS IS MY BODY. IT IS NOT GOVERNMENT PROPERTY. KEEP YOUR FLIPPIN' HANDS OFF!!!!!!!!!!

[DanCa]

1. It can also leave a women crippled and paralyzed too.

You know Jesus didn't care for religious theocrats. I now know why.

[mopinko]

2. i dare these guys to be pregnant for an hour

AN HOUR. puking. aching. feet swollen. stretch marked. a little gestational diabetes, maybe.
or even skip the 9 months. i dare jerry falwell to give birth. once.

[elehhhhna]

8. 30 minutes of contractions would do it.

[DanCa]

9. I really can sympythise - i have parkinsons' and these bastards

would rather have me suffer than invest in stem cell research. All for thier religious beliefs however, the same hypocrites have no problem dropping bombs on children, and pregnant women in iraq.

[I Have A Dream]

12. Yes, you also are a victim of their insanity.

:hug:

[ninkasi]

101. I know, DanCa

This aversion to stem cell research is as about as anti life as you could get. So many people could be helped. I truly hope that one day soon, in your lifetime, you will be able to have a medical procedure, or take a medicine, that will help you.

For people so supposedly "pro-life", the conservatives sure do seem to be determined to see that...not only every clump of potential human cells develops, and becomes a person, but that once here, that person suffer the torment of hell, so that they can feel self-righteous. Ignorant fucks.

[Dulcinea]

52. He could NEVER handle it.

He couldn't handle an easy pregnancy, let alone a complicated one.

Dulcinea
mother of 2

[sepia_steel]

73. Oh god, if they only knew.

I'm 2nd Tri and STILL sick.

It's MY choice to go through this though, and that's the way it should be for any woman.

[MADem]

107. Like this guy????

http://www.malepregnancy.com/mingwei/

or this guy???

[radwriter0555]

64. In 13 states the number 1 cause of death for pregnant women is MURDER.

Go figure.

Abusive spouses.

[mopinko]

75. abusive spouses who probably

refuse to wear condoms, and who do not care where she is in her cycle, or whether she has her diaphragm on, or control the money so that she can't go to the doctor or buy her pills, or.......
that pregnancy is not an incidental factor in these murders. it is THE PRECIPITATING FACTOR. and when they talk about making women inform their husbands, these are the guys who are not told. they are also the type of guys who would stand in the way of an abortion, just for the control factor.

[barb162]

137. and these are guys who probably beat the kids up when they cry

How many years is it since the "Feminine Mystique" came out. SO much progress has been made and yet so little in some areas.

[Vanje]

3. Its not about saving lives

Its about punishing women for having sex.

[tx_dem41]

4. Doesn't being pro-choice also mean a woman has a right to choose..

to have a baby..and as many babies as she chooses to?

To couch pregnancy ONLY so negatively when defending your pro-choice stance just play's into the pro-lifers' hands, IMO.

[mopinko]

53. i'm not opposing pregnancy, ferchrisakes

i have 5 kids. i chose that. you missed the point.

[donsu]

5. it's that control thing - men are so scared of women that they want to

keep them under control.

and yes, while we speak, women are dying in pregnancy, delivery, and post partum all around the world.

having a baby is a life threatening experience

even more so now that our health care system has crashed and can't be trusted because the pharma barons greed knows no bounds

[KyndCulture]

6. It almost did kill me... thankfully 2nd trimester abortions are legal

in my state or I wouldn't be here typing this message.

[JDPriestly]

62. Almost killed me too,

although I had two beautiful children -- but the second birth was very high-risk, and the doctors said it was a miracle that I and my baby survived. I had a close friend who died of a stroke during pregnancy. It was a long time ago. That is why I want all pregnant women to have free access to medical care. We must institute free prenatal care for each pregnant women --- Because pregnancy can be very dangerous.

[fasttense]

7. You are absolutely right mopinko.

I almost died from giving birth to my daughter. I had to be in bed for over five months. I got hugely fat because I couldn't exercise and I was scared to death the whole time. But it was my choice. I could have ended it anytime and that is what helped me through it. Knowing that there was a way out, if it became even more unbearable, helped me get through it. Taking away my choice would have added to the fear and panic.

I would never force that situation on any woman. It is a choice. Do you risk your life for the fetus or not? It is up to each woman to make that choice, not up to my government or some man who will never suffer the fear and pain. Now I'm kind of proud for going through it. But, making it mandatory would have taken away my my sense of pride. Can you really be a hero if you have no choice? I don't think so.

[pecwae]

10. Pregnancy almost

killed my friend's daughter. The young woman was obese, had high blood pressure and developed prenclampsia in her 6th month. Doctor had to take the baby to save the mother and child.

During this ordeal the medical staff was constantly talking of saving the baby. My friend finally had enough and actually grabbed the doctor by the arm and said her daughter's health was the priority and to hell with everything else.

[BeTheChange]

11. Life WILL kill you.

Crossing the street can kill you. Eating a pretzel can kill you. Driving a car can kill you.


Lotsa things can kill you.

Sex can kill you but nobody seems to call for people to keep their pants zipped up more often.

All Im saying is that if "pro-choice" folks continue to turn pregnancy into a horrible burden and bitch about how it's their body damnit, and nobody else's opinion matters.. I even heard that abortion was a CIVIL right recently...

Until the focus on is on the core issues, the scary ones that got abortion legalized in the first place, the rest comes off as self righteous whining. I am not for outlawing abortion. I dont think we can do that at this stage in the game. Had it been up for a vote and I been alive in the days of Roe v. Wade, I would not have supported it. I would have instead supported programs that provided free birth control for everyone and education on really knowing our bodies.

I cant take the pill, I have horrible reactions to it. Depo is incredibly scary stuff and gave me a whole host of problems while I was on it...I use a method of birth control that doesnt require more then a couple bucks and my time if I wished to obstain during my fertile time. Instead, I pay for condoms during that time, so the total cost of my bc runs around 10 bucks a month. Why do mothers not teach their children to really know their body? To understand how to chart their temp, what their cervical mucus means? Why doesnt sex ed teach that? It teaches us about condoms and the pill, etc..

We are so concerned with having control over our body, yet we arent even in touch with that body in most cases. Ive never been able to reconcile that.

[fasttense]

13. Easy for you to say. You never woke up in a pool of blood because

your fetus attached at the wrong place. It is so easy for people who never had a fetus that almost killed them to say "force that woman to have that baby". So easy to minimize another's fear and pain.

Sure you can die tomorrow, but you wont spend five months on your back wondering if this is the day the fetus inside of you is going to kill you.

[CatBoreal]

16. Two weeks on bedrest because I went pre-eclamptic with my first pregnancy.

Had friends on bedrest for placenta previa and other issues. I know what I'm talking about.

Would I force you to have that baby if you didn't want to. No. But because a small number of women (including yourself) in the Western World have issues with pregnancy does not make it an ovewhelmingly negative experience for all.

So please don't characterize it that way.

[fasttense]

117. What is that number? Do you really know?

Here is a statistic that nobody talks about: Forty percent or more of pregnant women may experience acute obstetric problems during pregnancy, childbirth and the postpartum period; an estimated 15% of pregnant women develop life-threatening complications.

Here is a link http://www.who.int/docstore/world-health-day/en/pages1998/whd98_01.html

That does not include actual deaths of pregnant women, that is just those who are at risk. That's a fairly large percent. It's a pretty negative experience for many women but we don't talk about it. Better to paint a false rosy picture for them.

So who is making a false characterization?

[BeTheChange]

22. Actually I have...

I was pregnant once and lost the baby due to placenta previa.. although it was in the middle of a store, not waking up in my bed, it was no less scary. I did not have to do 5 months of bedrest, but that wouldnt have changed my opinion on the matter.

[BeTheChange]

25. One more thing...

I also dont think that the main issue that we are speaking about is abortion when a mother's life is in medical danger. I think even on the far right you will be hard pressed to find many people that want a mother to be let to die due to complications from a pregnancy.


My post never said to do away with abortion. I explicity said that at this place in our society, I dont believe that is possible. I just am very confused by this whole.. it's my body, my choice, nobody else's! Pregnancy is such a burden! It's horrible! Nobody should be forced to endure it! - stance when most women dont even know their bodies at all. We claim ownership and choice when an unwanted pregnancy presents itself, but are so pissed off when someone dares to suggest that most of the time, we did have a choice in getting pregnant.

[CornField]

27. History has not shown that to be the case

I think even on the far right you will be hard pressed to find many people that want a mother to be let to die due to complications from a pregnancy.

The so-called "partial-birth abortion ban" was struck down by three judges as unconstitutional because it did not include a provision for health/life of the woman. Are you saying you believe this to be merely an oversight?

[BeTheChange]

44. I think we have already determined that our government isnt exactly..

representative of the people right now. Why did 63 Dems sign onto this bill?

Stenberg v. Carhart told the right that DX was never nessecary to save the life of a mother. If you are told that medical professionals and organizations are saying that there are always other options, even when a mother's life is at stake, then you are more apt to just do away with the proceedure in general because it isnt pleasant any way you slice it.

I dont think it was an oversight. I think it was people trusting the information that they were being given naievely.

[fasttense]

116. That sounds like an apology for the anti-choice crowd.

Why didn't legislation include an exclusion in the case that a mother's life was in danger?

"I think it was people trusting the information that they were being given naively." Poor legislature, so trusting, so pathetic. But hey, if it happens again and some mothers die, who really cares.

[lastliberalintexas]

32. I would say that no one should be forced to endure it

Although my pregnancy did not come with any serious medical issues that were life threatening, it was still not an experience I would wish on my worst enemy. I was sick for NINE MONTHS, vomiting frequently for 7 and 1/2 of those. Also borderline gestational diabetic, and had to go through that oh so wonderful testing 5 times in 4 months. No lie, the people who know me in real life would certainly be able to vouch for that fact. In fact, people who know me tell me they do not know how I did it and that they would not have been able to. Especially men.

Are all pregnancies that way? Of course not. But having had one that was, I can say with absolute certainty that I would NEVER dare to presume that I could make that decision for anyone else. And I'm sorry, but anyone who is so arrogant to think that they could (ie, the anti-choicers) needs to have their head examined.


And it doesn't sound like you know many of the hard right anti-choicers. Far too many of them would gladly let you die in their pursuit of the "sanctity of life".

[Greyhound]

96. Sorry for your confusion

It's my body, it's my choice. Seems to be quite clear to me, and I see no valid argument against it.

[newspeak]

103. and most of those opposed to abortion

are opposed to birth control. By the way, I have two friends that became pregnant while on birth control pills. Birth control is no 100% effective.

[Iris]

143. Actually, abortion has only recently become an issue.

For centuries, pregnancy and childbirth were left to women to work out for themselves. Women helped other women. Sometimes they helped each other give birth, sometimes they helped each other abort, sometimes they taught each other how NOT to get pregnant.

[CatBoreal]

14. Hear! Hear!

I'm sick and tired or pro-choicers making pregnancy seem like an ORDEAL!

It can be, but if you bother to get educated on the subject, if you know what to expect and what should be done during that period, it is not so scary or awful. It's tiring as hell (speaking as a pregnant lady who falls asleep in the SHOWER!) but it's not a panic inducing event.

Pro-choice needs to change it's meme from 'Every child is a wanted child' to 'Every child conceived is a wanted child.' and start to act accordingly with increased awareness of contraception and the basic biology. If I hear one more woman refer to her privates as her 'ying-yang' or her 'woohoo' instead of her vagina/uterus/ovaries/clitoris I am going to scream.

Abortion is nothing more than a rotten solution among rotten solutions for a rotten situation. There are no positives that come out of an unwanted pregnancy. So lets start working at preventing the situation instead of mopping up after it's too late.

I am done.

[I Have A Dream]

15. The religious right also doesn't want sex education.

They don't want to just stop abortions -- they also want to control sex. I think that this is the real issue for many "pro-life"/anti-choice people.

[CatBoreal]

18. And that's where Choice needs to step up to the plate.

That's where Planned Parenthood needs to get mouthy.

It's been shown time and again that sex education reduces the amount of unwanted pregnancies, the amount of STD's amongst teens and raises the age of kids' first sexual experiences.

We as liberals and pro-choicers have to start pushing this as a public health issue. Until that happens we'll keep seeing abortion and sex ed attacked.

Bottom up approach is the best way to go. Keep working to protect abortion and get working to include sex ed in the curriculum, either in health class or in biology class. That's where we will make the most impact.

[CTyankee]

123. Planned Parenthood has been working for YEARS in sex ed

Educate yourself about PP. Sex ed is a huge part of their work. Abortion is much smaller comparatively. We can safely say that Planned Parenthood PREVENTS more abortions through their work than any other organization in this world.

Please don't aid and abet the No Choicers by smearing Planned Parenthood.

[Mandate My Ass]

17. Say what?

Pro-choice needs to change it's meme from 'Every child is a wanted child' to 'Every child conceived is a wanted child.' and start to act accordingly with increased awareness of contraception and the basic biology... So lets start working at preventing the situation instead of mopping up after it's too late.

Talk about memes? Pot meet kettle. :eyes:

[CatBoreal]

19. And your problem with that is???

[Mandate My Ass]

28. Some people get pregnant despite using contraceptives

responsibly. The utterly false and insulting implication that only irresponsible women suffer unintended pregnancies is a typically RW smear used to limit or eliminate choice, and to demonize it. As is the suggestion that abortion is always a rotten choice. I know some women, even here on DU, who said abortion was a godsend and had never had second thoughts about it.

Who cares about why someone made the choices they did? Who am I to say that I have to approve of why someone chooses a perfectly legal option to end an unwanted pregnancy.

[CatBoreal]

31. It isn't a matter of me or anyone else approving...

and I know contraception fails. I'm currently walking proof of that!

I also know that women are thankful that they are able to have an abortion, but what would be better: Having to have an abortion, or not getting pregnant in the first place?

Personally, when I was making my choice to go ahead with this pregnancy, I would have prefered not been put in the position of having to chose in the first place. I'm continuing with the pregnancy, but I am grateful as all Hell for having the out.

But again, I wish I was never in this situation in the first place.

So, explain to me why it's wrong to believe that Planned Parenthood should expand it's focus beyond securing abortion rights for women? Why is it wrong to also want them to focus on better sex education in the schools, greater access to contraception, empowering women to take control of their biology to prevent conception in the first place? How is that RW??

[Mandate My Ass]

35. Well maybe you should have said that instead of saying this

I'm sick and tired or pro-choicers making pregnancy seem like an ORDEAL!

It can be, but if you bother to get educated on the subject, if you know what to expect and what should be done during that period, it is not so scary or awful. It's tiring as hell (speaking as a pregnant lady who falls asleep in the SHOWER!) but it's not a panic inducing event.

Pro-choice needs to change it's meme from 'Every child is a wanted child' to 'Every child conceived is a wanted child.' and start to act accordingly with increased awareness of contraception and the basic biology. If I hear one more woman refer to her privates as her 'ying-yang' or her 'woohoo' instead of her vagina/uterus/ovaries/clitoris I am going to scream.

Abortion is nothing more than a rotten solution among rotten solutions for a rotten situation. There are no positives that come out of an unwanted pregnancy. So lets start working at preventing the situation instead of mopping up after it's too late.

There is a distinct moralistic tone throughout your entire post, whether you care to own it or not. Planned Parenthood was not even mentioned here. And we'll never get to a place where every child conceived is a wanted child, so saying that is counterproductive to keeping choice private and legal and it certainly isn't conducive to empowering women.

Why would anyone care if someone else thinks and says pregnancy is an ordeal? Educated or not, it is an ordeal for many.

[CatBoreal]

41. Okay, fine, I was being moralistic....

You'll have to pardon the pregnancy hormones.

And as unrealistic as every conception being wanted, wouldn't that be a good thing to shoot for?

[Solon]

42. Impossible, practically...

Rapes, incest, etc. cannot be eliminated all together.

[mopinko]

109. every child a wanted child has been a mantra of pro-choice

advocates from back, back in the day. abortion rights have never, ever been a stand alone issue. in fact, the fight for access to birth control began long before the fight for legal abortion. and support for mothers has also always been a part of the same fight. you see, pro-choicers always have believed in the seamless garment.

[ultraist]

37. Planned parenthood's focus is not only abortion rights

You seem to be misinformed about what PLANNED parenthood does. They promote sex edu, dispense birth control to low income women, as well as provide other services.

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/pp2/portal/files/portal/aboutus/diversity-mission-statement.xml

Planned Parenthood believes in the fundamental right of each individual, throughout the world, to manage his or her fertility, regardless of the individual's income, marital status, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, age, national origin, or residence. We believe that respect and value for diversity in all aspects of our organization are essential to our well-being. We believe that reproductive self-determination must be voluntary and preserve the individual's right to privacy. We further believe that such self-determination will contribute to an enhancement of the quality of life, strong family relationships, and population stability.

Based on these beliefs, and reflecting the diverse communities within which we operate, the mission of Planned Parenthood is:

to provide comprehensive reproductive and complementary health care services in settings which preserve and protect the essential privacy and rights of each individual;

to advocate public policies which guarantee these rights and ensure access to such services;

to provide educational programs which enhance understanding of individual and societal implications of human sexuality;

to promote research and the advancement of technology in reproductive health care and encourage understanding of their inherent bioethical, behavioral, and social implications.
What health services do Planned Parenthood health centers offer?

Each Planned Parenthood affiliate is a unique, locally governed health service organization that reflects the diverse needs of its community. Planned Parenthood health centers offer a wide range of services that may include

family planning counseling and birth control
pregnancy testing and counseling
gynecological care, Pap tests, breast exams
emergency contraception
HIV testing and counseling
medically accurate sexuality education
screening and treatment for sexually transmitted infections
infertility screening and counseling
voluntary sterilization for women and men
reproductive medical exams for men
safer sex counseling
midlife services
abortions or abortion referrals
prenatal care
adoption referrals
primary care
referrals for specialized care

[Bridget Burke]

38. Planned Parenthood's focus has always gone beyond abortion rights.

Have you ever been there? I went in my young & foolish days--so I didn't have an unplanned pregnancy. They supply contraception & other kinds of health care to all sorts of people.

www.plannedparenthood.org/pp2/portal/

As you can see from the link above, PP focuses on issues beyond Choice--like funding for birth control in Texas. Why are you waiting for PP to focus on all the issues you mention? They can't do everything.

[Tsiyu]

83. Thanks to ultraist and Ms. Burke

Where have you folks been? Planned Parenthood is about a whole lot more than abortion. They have been advocates of contraception and education more than just about any organization i can name.

The OP is not saying "pregnancy is awful and no fools should be pregnant."

The OP is saying that the reality is that pregnancy can be life threatening. In order to illustrate the point, we have to discuss the ways it can kill a woman. If this discussion bothers you, I would wonder if you dislike the reality of the sitution more than the way the discussion is framed?

[lastliberalintexas]

29. My problem with that is that I faced an unplanned pregnancy

Well into adulthood, married several years, and on birth control. So you can clearly see that you are never going to be able to make *every* conception a wanted one. And trying to argue that we can is idiotic.

Do we need better sex education? Of course. Do we need to improve access to and affordability of contraception? Certainly. Do we need to work on developing more and better methods of contraception? I think my story proves that we do.

But those things have nothing to do with whether a woman should have dominion over her own body, whether she is pregnant or not.

[CornField]

20. For some of us, it is an ordeal

Not for every woman, not in every case, but there are times when it is more than unwanted... there are times when it is life-threatening.

That is the primary reason why it must boil down to choice. Only a woman can know what she is mentally, physically and emotionally prepared to deal with. Only she can make that choice - not the government, not a diety, not a partner, not even a doctor. Ultimately, everything boils down to the woman. And, contrary to popular opinion, women should be able to take care of themselves in such a manner. (If you cannot trust me with a choice, how can you trust me with a child?)

If this leads a woman to produce an army of children or if it leads a woman to have numerous abortions, the choice should not be up for public debate.

While I wholeheartedly agree with working against the social issues which produce unwanted pregnancy, I'm not willing to disregard the fact that medical privacy is a civil right which should be afforded to everyone (even us females).

[fasttense]

118. Well put CornField. n/t

[JDPriestly]

65. You don't know what you are talking about.

I loved being pregnant. I wanted more children than I had as did my husband. But pregnancy was too dangerous for me. Abortion can be a necessary procedure. Rather than focus on abortion, whether it should be allowed or not, I would like to focus on universal pre-natal care for all, pre-school care for mothers who need or want to work and getting rid of the stigma that still exists in many communities for unwed mothers. I was specifically told that if I got pregnant again, neither I nor my baby would survive the pregnancy. I was told that I would be advised to have an abortion. I managed not to get pregnant, but then, I was in a stable, healthy relationship as I still am. In other words, I was lucky.

Abortion could easily be made a much rarer procedure if we simply made our society more mother-friendly, more child-friendly, more pregnant-woman oriented. I am very suspicious of those who focus on ending abortions. I want to focus on getting really good healthcare for women. I believe that would reduce the number of abortions in this country drastically.

I have lived in several European countries, and in each of them, a pregnant woman not only had nearly free access to prenatal and postnatal care, but she was paid a sum of money - Kindergeld in German - provided that she visited the doctor at certain intervals in her pregnancy and provided that she brought her infant to see the doctor at certain intervals. That was a smart system. Those countries allowed abortion but provided incentives to women to carry their children to term. I like that idea. Let's talk about positive incentives to encourage women to carry their babies to term, not punitive measures to stop abortions. After all, conservatives advocate for incentives for big business as the answer to environmental problems, so surely they will see the value of incentives for pregnant women. I think we could sell this idea.

[barb162]

23. The charting the temp thing may work in some women but not all

That was the old Catholic method and it was not what was called reliable as compared to the pill.

[BeTheChange]

26. Well, tell that to my whole family :)

It's not like it is religious hocus pocus. It is scientifically sound that our body experiences changes through our cycle and that we can use those changes to identify when we are fertile.

7 women...We have all been tremendously successful. None of us has experienced an unwanted pregnancy. Ive been using the method reliably for 5 years at this point. It isnt just about temperatures either. It is also about real physical signs like cervical mucus.

Coupled with barrier methods/abstinence during fertile periods it has fantastic success rates.

Im not saying that it is the best method for everyone.. but there are a whole host of bc options out there nowadays, and you dont have to just use one. You can always use a barrier method with the pill.. etc.

[zanne]

30. I was a "rhythm" baby...

OOPS! I guess it doesn't always work.

[BeTheChange]

43. Nothing works 100% of the time..

except abstinence...but it isnt as flighty as some would make it out to be either.

[DemBones DemBones]

89. OOPS! I know "pill" babies, "IUD" babies,

and "diaphragm" babies. No contraceptive method always works. Abstinence does, but isn't very popular.

Natural Family Planning ("rhythm") works well when done properly.

Contraceptives (the pill, IUDs, condoms, diaphragms, spermicides) only work well when used properly.

[mopinko]

60. tell that to a woman who is a drug addict, or married to one, or

who suffers from depression, or is bi-polar, or alcoholic, or is married to a jerk who demands sex every day and refuses to use a condom, or who lives in a small town with nowhere to get good birth control, or is too young to get birth control on her own but is being molested by a family member, or.....

guess what- they call it the middle class because not everyone is in it. some are above it, and some are below it. your methods are fine for people who have a safe and orderly life. you don't seem to be able to imagine what it is like for people who are not. well, guess what, lot's of women don't have a place to sleep, let alone a highly accurate thermometer, or a place to keep their diaphragm. but guess what, they still want love, still want closeness with another person. and if they ignore all of their needs, based on your version of what is right and wrong, guess what they would be? PROBABLY DEAD. it's an ugly world out there. it is not your place to judge. it is not the governments place to judge.

[BeTheChange]

93. I didnt judge..

but there are a whole host of options. Until everyone who seeks to have an abortion meets the criteria that you listed, unconsentual sex, unable to obtain birthcontrol, etc.. Im still going to push education and birth control methods over screaming about what I have a right to do with my body.

[JDPriestly]

68. I understand what you are talking about and am very familiar with it.

It is a workable method of birth control in a stable relationship. It is useless in case of rape. Women should be encouraged to observe their physical cycles much more than they are and for many reasons. It is the legacy of the Puritan/extremely religious superstitious era that makes women ashamed of their bodies and insensitive to their own functions.

While we are talking about abortion, I recommend the movie the Magdalena sisters. It is about Irish women, unwed mothers and other women viewed as "fallen" for one reason or another in who, for were placed in these horrible convents where they were abused and had to remain in the convent until someone came to take them out. While there, they did laundry and slept in dormitories. That movie is really worth seeing, but it is dark. It shows you where the extreme right wing wants to take us.

[BeTheChange]

95. Rape is a very large reason why I support legal safe abortions

Incest is another. I recognize that this world we live in is less then perfect.

Abortion isnt the absolute norm tho. Alot of women choose to have abortions after engaging in consentual sex. That is obviously their choice and Im not advocating that it be taken away from them. I am however, advocating that it is irresponsible from a myriad of standpoints in engage in unprotected sex. It's not just about pregnancy. It's about disease, self esteem, etc.

[JDPriestly]

100. I agree that using abortions for birth control is irresponsible.

But then, is it surprising? Our society in general does not value woman's work -- caring for children, the elderly, each other, cooking, cleaning and work that was TRADITIONALLY, and I repeat traditionally viewed as the work of women very highly. I think that those tasks should be valued and that time spent on them should be recognized and maybe even compensated (although I don't know how that could be done).

I think the focus on abortion is misplaced. I would like to see some changes with regard to womens' roles and choices beyond that divisive issue. Women have a lot of common interests in common and need the rights to privacy and choice choice about a lot of other aspects of their lives. Think of it. A wealthy woman can choose to have a baby and stay home with the baby while it is very small, but a poor woman can't. Other countries have generous family leave provisions that pay women a small amount to stay home with a very young child if that is their choice. Those countries value the work the mother of the small child does. We don't. If we really wanted to discourage abortion, we would offer the opportunity to American women to stay home with small children. Many, many of the women who use abortion as a birth control measure do it because they do not have the money to raise a child or because having a child would "interfere" with their ability to earn a living. They feel they do not have the choice to stay home with the child they are bearing. This should not be.

[mopinko]

128. using abortions for birth control

what a right wing talking point. i do not even know what that means. do you mean women who just have sex without a care that they might get pregnant? that might be a clue that that woman is not entirely mentally healthy and consenting in the situation. do you mean a woman who is swept off her feet and has sex with her fingers crossed?
look, until women are really given full agency in this society, and have the resources to take care of all their health care, it is really ridiculous to make judgments about whether or not they have made acceptable efforts at contraception.
and if they haven't, then what? this line of reasoning seems to be that these women are not "entitled" to an abortion. that they have "made a mistake" and need to "bear" the consequences. how would that work? a nice middle class lady that checks her mucus and takes her temperature, or takes her pill every day, will quiz her about her birth control procedures, and if she finds them wanting she is forced to serve her sentence? or she gets an abortion, because we don't want any more people like her, but we tie her tubes, or tattoo a scarlet letter on her chest? what? what is the point of these discussions about birth control compliance??? this debate is about keeping the government and the moralistic busy bodies out of peoples personal decisions. that includes judgments about whether or not people are contracepting perfectly.

[JDPriestly]

132. I'm not saying the government should be involved.

I'm saying that women should do the best they can not to get pregnant until they want a child. Abortions are not the best family planning method. They just aren't for many reasons including health, efficiency, the fair use of healthcare resources, etc. Some women have multiple abortions. That's not smart.

[mopinko]

141. well, i think all women do "the best they can"

some just cannot do much. women who are not able to contracept well are also not usually in control of the rest of their life. nobody thinks repeated unplanned pregnancies are "smart".
if you don't want the government involved, what do you want? why does your opinion of a good reason matter?

[JDPriestly]

151. I want universal healthcare for all people, starting with

pregnant women, children and the elderly. If resources have to be allocated, allocate them according to some criteria other than money and social status. We could provide paid leaves for young working mothers so they could have the choice to stay home with their children. We could give stipends to assist families with small children. Other developed countries assist people with children through these means.

I also think that, we as a society, should take better care of the disabled and not leave so much of the care and expense of caring for a severely disabled child (including through adulthood) to the parents. If we, as a society, do not want abortion to be common, we have to put our money where our mouths are and do helpful things to prevent it. Criminalizing abortion just makes it more dangerous.

[mopinko]

152. you'll get no argument from me

i am not against mother or babies, ferchrissakes. the women's movement, from it's earliest days, has insisted that the measure of a society was in the care it takes of mothers and babies. only republicans see abortion as a stand alone issue.

[JDPriestly]

154. For me, the two issues are inextricably linked.

I was able to have and enjoy having babies because I knew my healthcare and theirs would be paid for.

[gkhouston]

139. and let's not forget that even tubal ligation has a failure rate

Actually, the failure rate for tubal ligation is comparable to that for IUDs and since I wasn't sure my baby-making days were over, I chose the IUD. At least I can tell if the IUD's in the right place by checking the string. I'd have no way of knowing whether my Fallopian tubes had re-connected until the morning sickness started.

[mopinko]

74. did you know

that one of the reasons that "rhythm" methods do not work is that the ovulation time will be unstable when no pregnancies occur? so that your carefully charted predictions will be "deliberately" undermined by your body? this method relies on prediction. and a women's desires are synched to her hormones. so, you are asking her to forgo intercourse on the days that her body most wants it. this is fine is a good relationship where other activities besides intercourse are accepted by both partners. but that is sure not everyone.
women have to be in a stable situation to contracept well. in a world where women are rarely in control, even in their own homes, your suggestions are of very little value.
maybe we should make abortion illegal for middle class women who have control of their lives, since we can fairly judge them. right?

[BeTheChange]

97. Please point me in the direction of that research..

Because, as I said.. The women of my family have had tremendous success with this method. All I can do is speak from personal experience as well as the studies and literature Ive read. There has never been an unplanned pregnancy, none of us have to forgo intercourse during our fertile periods, we simply use a barrier method (actually, most of us use multiple barrier methods, spermicide and a condom, diaphram and condom, spermicide and diapram, foam and diaphram, yadda yadda).

Now, is the Fertility Awareness method an easy method? For alot of people it isnt. But it requires very little more effort then taking a pill and it's free ( outside of the initial cost of a thermometer and some paper- draw your own calendars). You can get free condoms at a number of locations in most urban areas. Yes, I realize that not everyone lives in an urban area.. and I have no guilt in saying that if you do not have access to birth control and protection, it is not too much to ask that you obstain from consentual sex during your fertile period.

Is FA the method for everyone. No. But it can be incredibly effective if used correctly.

Can you please tell me why we have to have sex every time we want to, repercussions be damned? Will it harm us to abstain from sex for a week a month if we are unable to use any other birth control method?

[mopinko]

106. so now you are not only qualified to judge

who has had sex responsibly enough, you see fit to tell them how many days of the month they should and should not have sex. well, you have certainly shown the folly of thinking that these matters can be intruded on in a tightly defined and reasonable way.

[barb162]

88. I agree it's not hocus-pocus and it is scientifically sound.

I am not at all arguing that. And I agree with you about the mucus, the temps, etc. But if a woman isn't real regular, this method doesn't work so hot. I am glad your family has had so much success with it.

[BeTheChange]

98. Obviously not the method for everyone

But how many women who have no other options have even tried it?

[barb162]

133. Good question. Probably the ones who need it most

the women in the most poverty-stricken countries who have no access to any medical care.

[eridani]

114. Nice to know that genetically related people find that their bodies--

--are a lot alike. The signs of ovulation you successfully track don't appear in everyone.

[eridani]

115. Nice to know that genetically related people find that their bodies--

--are a lot alike. The signs of ovulation you successfully track don't appear in everyone.

[ultraist]

36. Right to Privacy

I even heard that abortion was a CIVIL right recently...

Um, it is a civil right, "right to privacy" which Roe was premised on.

http://www.tourolaw.edu/patch/Roe/

We, therefore, conclude that the right of personal privacy includes the abortion decision, but that this right is not unqualified and must be considered against important state interests in regulation.

[BeTheChange]

48. I beg to differ...That is an implied right...

It's very different then a civil right, and is highly debated even as such.

[JDPriestly]

69. The argument about the status of the right to abortion

is what will be decided by the next new Supreme Court justice. O'Connor was the swing vote on Casey, which defined (a bit) limits on the right to abortion.

[mopinko]

84. highly debated, yes. honestly debated? hardly

a religious minority forcing their religious views into the public debate, mostly in order to throw sand in the gears of our democracy, maybe qualifies as a debate. in my opinion, it is all dishonest in the extreme. i respect the honest reverence for life that many on the prolife side feel. but most of those "highly debating" this position do so for the purpose of getting and keeping political power, and money. there is nothing else in their agenda that reveres life. this is a debate that is a fulcrum to shift power on the bodies of women. this not about life.
this decision should be returned to the realm of private decisions and private conscience, where it belongs. unless the government takes reverence for life into consideration in every decision it makes, it does not belong in this decision. unless they are ready to make all citizens roll up their sleeves, and give blood, bone marrow and cadavers to save lives, the should stay out of my uterus.

[fasttense]

119. Mopinko your logic and common sense cut through the BS again. n/t

[mopinko]

131. thank you

what a concept, using logic, eh?

[barb162]

134. second that!

[JDPriestly]

63. Don't take it lightly.

To the extent pregnancy is safe today it is only because we give birth in safe places with high standards of hygiene and cleanliness. It still can be very dangerous for many women and was life-threatening for me. By saying life can kill you, you are trivializing the risk of pregnancy. Unless you've been pregnant and nearly lost your life, you don't believe it, and women don't normally talk about their close calls, but the fact is that they are not as uncommon as you might think.

[mopinko]

76. Lotsa things can kill you.

the government does not tell you you have to stand in a busy street and risk getting run over so that someone else can live. the only example of that that i can think of is military conscription. and even that is not the same. only the fit and the sane get conscripted. the last time we had a draft there were far more exemptions allowed than there are in these restrictive laws they keep passing.

"We are so concerned with having control over our body, yet we aren't even in touch with that body in most cases. Ive never been able to reconcile that."

that is our choice. we can examine our mucus and chart our temperatures if we want. do you think the government ought to require that? or do you think it would be ok for the government to forbid that? it is nobody's business is the point.

[BeTheChange]

99. Okay..

This is is my last try in response to your posts.

Im not saying that I want to oulaw abortion. Im not saying anything of the sort. Im simply saying that its a shame to scream about the control we have over a body that we are so sadly out of touch with most of the time.

Empowerment for me is taking control, not demanding it so loudly that it drowns out the sounds of my own responsibilities to myself.

The current argument is, in my opinion, very bullheaded, combative, and in need of reframing.

The end.

[mopinko]

124. i do not scream for myself

i am past the personal worry about this issue. and your arguments seems to be that you have an adequate personal solution, thanks to your own responsible behavior.
i scream for my sisters. and for my brothers, for that matter, when their bodily integrity is rolled over by a state that sees it citizens bodies as part of their domain. either the power of the government ends at our skins, or it does not.
if keeping the state out of all of our bodies is not a stand worth taking, and examining the ramifications of this camel's nose in our tent is not an argument worth pounding on, at least until it is clearly defined, then there is no sense having an intellectual community here.

bullheaded and combative? thank you.

[Der Blaue Engel]

112. The issue is not that it is a horrible burden

it is that NO ONE has a right to tell any other person that they should take this risk--or even the damn inconvenience--if they don't want to. To call it self-righteous whining trivializes the very real risk involved.

Thank goodness it's not up to a vote. No one has a right to vote about my body. No one.

[countryjake]

145. Easy for you to say. You never woke up in a pool of blood because

the man you thought you loved had beaten your body to a bloody pulp, then told you he was "sorry" by fucking the rest of your brains out!

When are people going to realize that women are treated as second-class citizens with no brains, no choice, no rights, no options in thousands of thousands of "family" situations across this country. Your little temperature and charting games that you devise with your husband are all well and good in a perfect little mutual respect relationship, but that is not the case for many women. Subjugation is alive and well in our country, conditions in which a woman does not control any aspect of her own life, let alone how, when, and where she chooses to engage in sex.

Until women are educated to become whole people, within their own right, and NOT raised to think that "catching a man", becoming the "beautiful bride", maintaining the "perfect family", and raising "model children" is THE prime objective of all womanhood, abortion will continue to be a necessity for all those enslaved by patriarchy in our society!

[mopinko]

146. discussions like this remind me that dems are not always

the party of "walk a mile in the other person's shoes". people with their middle class notions of how easy it is to be "responsible" ought to have to walk a few miles in the shoes of the incest survivor recreating the only kind of love she knows, the woman struggling with depression or worse, the woman working 2 or 3 jobs to feed her kids, the woman with no family to help her escape an abusive husband, etc, etc.
who are any of us to say that other women should, even if they can, not have sex if they might get pregnant. i have had some hard times in my life, and had sex with my fingers crossed many times. i was lucky, but i was a lonely human, in need of connection. no choicers, are you above that? if you are, you have my pity. it is a complex thing to be a human being. we should not be passing judgment on what it takes to keep it together in this world. you never know when you will find yourselves barefoot.

[KitchenWitch]

21. I came close to dying in childbirth

I lost about 2-1/2 pints of blood.

[fasttense]

120. I'm glad you survived such a life threatening ordeal KitchenWitch. n/t

[barb162]

24. I hear you!!!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

33. Not to mention the joy of morning sickness, hemmorhoids and backache.

As a man, I can safely say, that most men would cringe in terror at what women have to go through in pregnancy. Not to mention childbirth.

I'm always a bit more than amazed that women ever allow themselves to get pregnant and go through that torture. Even more amazed that they do it more than once.

I once saw a bumpersticker: "If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament".

Women are not babymaking machines for men. Forcing women to give birth is tantamount to slavery.

[Caoimhe]

34. More than one woman dies per minute

worldwide due to complications resulting from pregnancy/childbirth. That's a lot.

Becoming pregnant and deciding to keep it is tatamount to risking your life. There is no equivalent thing asked of males.

Thanks for pointing this out. I get very irritated hearing people say that 11 year olds should be forced to give birth against their will. This does very lasting damage to their developing bodies. Just because we can GET pregnant, doesn't mean we should REMAIN pregnant.

My husband and I are trying desperately to have a baby, and lost one last summer at 10 weeks. The bill from the hospital which came after my D&C had the procedure listed as ABORTION. It's important that we understand that it is a medical procedure that can at times be VERY necessary to save a life (the mother). Without it I would have developed an infection and could have died, or been rendered infertile. We must frame this issue. People who've had D&C's or abortions need to stand up and admit it. It's far more than most frightwingers think!

I guess when we get robotic wombs.. all children will be planned for. I am more than ready for it!

[undergroundpanther]

39. It's because RELIGIOUS

MEN want women to be cursed with childbirth just like their MALE bible god decreed in genesis.This is why they oppose abortion.Religious men are told by their hateful god to hate women because the bible god hates women So if women don't bow down to their bloated male egos they can call daddy god to MAKE the women fear by using the boga booga of biblical mythology and manipulation about"covering" and the hierarchy of the family crap..Too many men are bullies and see bullying as being "manly" Some women who are tied up in these gender roles even teach men to be "men"by letting them be mothered so they never are accountable,never learn to wash their own clothes or cook..Some men still think because they work(at a job) they get to rule the women as if she is paid for property like a TV set.
This ruling game is because of a primitive stupid mindset leftover from our apish past,MEN are scared of women(we bleed but do not die) so they express fear by making us property,by making us mommies sex objects and whores they DOMINATE us because they are NOT superior to us (equal)and deep down they KNOW it but hate it because we can do something THEY can't.So the one thing we can do(give birth) and all the stuff surrounding it breasts periods are tabooed,covered up and restricted.

[lastliberalintexas]

40. I don't think it's only about hatred of women

Though that and their desire to control women certainly plays a huge part in this. But religious leaders also need church members, and it's much easier to simply grow your flock than try to convert the non-believers. It's as much about power (of the sect) as it is about control (of the women and even men).

[BeTheChange]

45. What if it isnt about control?

What if it is about believing that the fetus you have growing inside you is a life?

I dont want to control anyone. I dont want to take away anyone's choice.. but I cannot help but know in my heart that life exists in the womb and that abortion does end that life. Is abortion murder? I dont know.. Should it be punished by laws? No. Should it be available? Yes. Would I have one. No. Will I try to make it so that you cant have one? No.

People who dont nessecarily support abortion arent always struggling with issues of control.

It's easy to put everyone in a box, or make the rabid protestors that scream, kick and holler outside of abortion clinics the poster children for the term "Prolife". Some people just feel sadness in their hearts that we live in a world so fucked up that abortion outside of medical nessecity is deemed nessecary for some.

[lastliberalintexas]

46. For the people about whom I'm speaking, it is

I don't mean the people who are truly pro-life, who are concerned with the fetus from conception until death, and who support programs and policies such as living wages, universal healthcare, government subsidized or run daycare as in France, workplace protections, etc. Those people are most often Democrats, btw.

The people about whom I am speaking are the *anti-choicers*. And more specifically in my post above, the religious leaders of all stripes who use the abortion and contraception issues as a means of both growing their numbers and controlling the "underclass" and "undesirables". Both religion and child rearing has been used for hundreds (thousands?) of years to control the masses and to keep them so busy that they don't have time to become informed, to be active, or to revolt against the powers that be. Those people could care less about the born alive child, and most often support regressive policies such as laissez faire economics, flat taxes, higher taxes on earned than unearned income, etc. Those people also tend to be republicans. Funny how that works.

As you can see, I don't put people in boxes and try not to use imprecise language and labels. When I argue that it is about control for the anti-choicers, those are the people- and the only people- about whom I am speaking. I very seriously doubt that you are in that group, or else you wouldn't have lasted very long on this board! :)

[BeTheChange]

47. Thanks for the clarification...

I guess I just get my back up a little when I hear religion and prolife used in the same sentence. I dont think you have to be a rabid fundamentalist if you are prolife because you truly respect what you consider life during its entire duration. I try my best to see both sides of the coin. Everyone has a reason for the things they believe and a unique set of life circumstances that led them to their conclusions.

I know alot of Christians that vote Replican because of abortion when at heart, they are truly Democrats. They support social programs, they really have a heart to help people, not to control people but they simply cannot get past the staggering numbers of women that are having abortions. While I may not agree with their views about wether abortion should be legal.. I do respect the heart that they have, in most cases. If all women who are having abortions are doing so because of their health or birthcontrol failures, we really need to get some real numbers on the effectiveness of birth control and why such a large number of women are experiencing such serious problems during pregnancy. Is it the toxic food we eat? The water, the air?

Sadly, I think that there are alot more complex issues that really frame the decision a woman makes to get an abortion. Issues that we as a society should get better at dealing with.

But Ive went off on a tangent :)

Thanks for taking the time to respond, it seems rare that responses are so civil when faced with conversations like this.

[Caoimhe]

49. YOU would NEVER have one????

"Would I have one. No."

So you are saying you would rather die than have an abortion? Or are you just talking about elective abortion?

How anyone can ever say.. that they would NEVER have one, is beyond me. Just like when I hear people say "I don't believe in divorce"..."I would never get a divorce". They are the people I silently laugh at when a few years later they are working on their 2nd or 3rd marriage.

Until a situation stares you directly in the face, you cannot say what you would do.

Like I said, we are desperately trying to have a baby. That doesn't mean I would never have an abortion. Of course I would if my life or health were in danger from a pregnancy! And my husband would NEVER want to lose me over a fetus!

[BeTheChange]

50. I would never have an elective abortion...

A better choice of words would be that I would never choose to have one, unless my my life\future fertility with no viability was on the line and there were absolutely no other options.

[Caoimhe]

51. Thanks for that

the clarification is important to me in my own situation I guess.

I appreciate your reply

[mopinko]

54. donating blood saves a life, being an organ donor saves a life

the federal government had decreed that everyone on your block give a blood sample today. those whose blood type is in demand will be required to go to the blood donation center once a month, until supply is adequate.
several small children in your town need liver transplants. since an adult can donate a lobe to a child, without long term problems, those that are a match for a child in need will be required to submit to further screening. those that are found to be compatible will be given 2 weeks to organize their affairs, then they will report to surgery.
several other children are in need of bone marrow transplants. those that are compatible will have 1 week to schedule their donation.
needless to say, everyone on your block who dies, but has harvestable organs will have them confiscated by the feds.
look, you are saving CHILDREN! you got a problem with that? children.

[BeTheChange]

67. Those children's lives are not the direct result of my actions..

In most cases, pregnancy would be. It's the same strawman arguement that is trotted out whenever this topic is brought up.

[mopinko]

71. you assume that all sex is a considered, consensual act

that is not how it is in the real world. especially in a real world where women are not even guaranteed equal rights under the constitution in this country. even if every woman in this country was autonomous, supported, healthy, happy, sane, well served in her community with health care, child care, equal education, equal access to good employment at equal wages, empowered in her family and personal life, there would still be situations where unsupportable pregnancies would occur. who are you to intrude on this decision?? why does your opinion of her responsibility and motives have presidency over her body?
if you are not required by the government to have your bodily integrity violated for something as simple as a blood donation, who are you to tell a woman that she must bear a pregnancy that she did not want. she may have no more connection to that fetus than you do to the recipient of that blood. either my body is mine and not community property, or it is not. there is one place to draw this line, and it is at my skin. inviolate is inviolate. that is the principle. if my uterus is government property so is your blood. lives could be saved. for your position to be consistent it would require what is necessary to save lives. unless the root of your argument is not really about life.

[Caoimhe]

78. BINGO

You nailed it. It isn't about saving lives. It's about punishment for lustful sex (sins)

[BeTheChange]

91. Bullshit.nt

[BeTheChange]

92. Did "in most cases", convienently escape your attention?

I did not assume any such thing.. and nowhere in this thread am I calling for outlawing abortions. But the argument that right to refuse to give up your kidney and right to abort does not equate.

If your tactic would have been far less dramatic then the strawman, perhaps you could see that too.

[mopinko]

108. the equation is this-

the state wishes to be able to tell me that i must risk my life so that another "person" will live, whether i am willing to or not, by prohibiting me from aborting a pregnancy. it is about the primacy of life, only, goes the argument. the state, however, does not require many other acts which would be equally effective in saving lives. many, in fact, have virtually no risk. many have slim risks, and cause small amounts of pain and some inconvenience. even these are never compelled. others still, like the donation of a kidney, are certainly major, but are certainly the same order of magnitude with the risk, pain, and sacrifice that many mothers willingly suffer in order to bear wanted children. and certainly requiring that usable organs from cadavers harms no one, and could save countless lives every year.
why? why is the carrying of an unwanted fetus singled out to be compelled by the state? if it about life, why doesn't the government compel these other sacrifices? and if it is indeed legal and proper for the state to compel a woman to carry an unwanted fetus, why can't it compel these other lifesaving sacrifices?

[newspeak]

104. but then your talking about religious concepts

when does the soul enter the body? At the first trimester, the brain stem is not even developed until the fifth month? There are religions that believe that the soul enters at the time of conception and others believe at the time of birth. If you are valuing the fetus before the human that is already here, then we have a problem. Because if women are considered in value, socially, below the fetus, then we as a people have gone backwards. Read "Sex in History", very enlightening about infanticide and the church.

[mopinko]

110. some believe life begins when

the youngest goes to college and the dog dies.
badump ching

[newspeak]

105. yes, Hitler believed in the sanctity of the fetus, also

It's amazing that there are a lot of so-called "pro-life" people out there who are willing to murder other people's children and even doctor's, because they believe in the sanctity of life. Go figure!!!

[Extend a Hand]

140. to be prolife is to make a value judgement

That says that preserving a life is more important than other values.

Preserving life at any cost is not my most important value.

abortion (even very late term) outside of medical nessicity might be the best choice to make in any number of circumstances.

Lets say:
you already have three children
you are in a car accident in the 30th week of your pregnancy
the fetus you are carrying is severly injured and you are told has sustained severe brain damage and will be paralyzed for life
your husband was killed in the car accident
you have no job and no skills
your husband didn't have any life insurance
you don't have any living relatives
your hospitalization will run out at the end of the year since your husband is dead unless you can afford expensive cobra coverage

What would you do?

I would place more value on the quality of life in this case...The quality of life that fetus would have if it was born. The quality of my life and that of my other children.

[mopinko]

85. i think men are always insecure

i think that the evolutionary leap that "monogamous" relationships, and male investment in childrearing made possible is one fraught with danger for a man's genetic inheritance. the fear of being cuckolded is deeply seated in men. the fear of choosing a woman who does not care for your little packet of genes is in the core of their psychies, imho, and in that of evolutionary psychologists. i think this comes first, and religion is built around it.
what got the witches in trouble was knowing how to prevent pregnancies, and cause abortions.
i think it is time for intelligence and fairness to take over.

[mopinko]

80. i had to have a d&c

i had 4 of my 5 at home. the doc i was going to at the time was perfectly equipped to do the procedure in his office, but did not offer the service because many of the people who chose home birth do so for religious reasons, and were staunchly pro-life. he did not want to offend them. now, home birth practitioners usually have touchy relationships with hospitals, and are always reluctant to send their patients. they often helped women through miscarriages at home, even though it meant a more drawn out process. they would send out a nurse, or keep in touch by phone, and as long as all went well, they let nature take it's course. in my case, i began to hemorrhage and needed a d&c. a lack of communication when i got to the hospital lead an overtired resident to not realize that i had been followed, and that i needed intervention. so i was "observed" while the resident got some sleep. i did eventually get my d&c, 8 hours later, and after a 30% drop in my hematacrit. after laying awake all night in the hospital, gushing blood, and mourning the loss of a very wanted pregnancy.
the doc was furious when he found out, both at the partner that lost track of me, and at himself. he stopped apologizing for the presence of equipment in his office, and instituted a plan to take care of his future patients in the office, day or night, if that is what they wanted that.

the point of this story is that women's health is what is at stake in these debates. i almost died, in part because fundies pressured a doc to not offer a service that i needed, just because it was ASSOCIATED with abortions. they never offered elective abortions in the first place. but they were objecting to the procedure, and the presence of the equipment, anyway.

[fasttense]

121. Caoimhe thanks for sharing your experience. I hope you have your baby soon

You will make a great mother.

[Fescue4u]

55. true, but its not a solid argument

abortion foes will say that the mortality rate of pregnancy is very low (which it is), and pregnancy is quite preventable. On the other hand the mortality rate of abortion is 100%

[mopinko]

56. so, you won't mind when it is your turn

when the feds come to your door, and tell you to role up your sleeve. a pint of blood a month is no problem. why, many people with rare blood types give monthly. just because they are good people. it's life, ya know. little children who would die. why can't the government make you give blood? or bone marrow? there is almost zero risk in that. just some discomfort, a little inconvenience.
how old are you? your almost done with those kidneys, aren't you? most people get a long fine with one.
and after you are dead, you don't need your body at all. so why can't the government just take it? it will save lives.

[Fescue4u]

58. Sure I would mind

But you preaching to the wrong person here.

We're on the same side. I just pointed out how the other side will respond.

When arguing, its generally a good idea to anticipate your opponents response.

[really annoyed]

57. "the mortality rate of abortion is 100%"

Let me argue with some of your "facts."

Abortion is 10 times safer than pregnancy.

Here are the facts:

Abortion - 0.6 out of 100,000 women will die.

Pregnancy - 13 out of 100,000 will die.

Surgical abortion is the safest procedure done in the United States.

Here is the SUPPORTED data:
http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/safety_surgical_abortion.html

You might shake if off because you are an "abortion foe," but the facts stated by the NAF are supported and are not propaganda.

I KNOW my facts - I was a "pro-life" for over ten years. I have heard all the arguments and I have researched them. Most of them are bunk.

Plus, you assertion of a 100% "mortality rate" for abortion is up for opinion.

I am of the PERSONAL opinion that abortion is morally wrong - therefore, *I* will never consider the option. However, I will NOT tell other women what to do with their lives.

I'm also of the opinion that children are a great blessing and women who are willing to risk 9 months of their life (planned or unplanned child) for somebody else deserve great honor.

[Fescue4u]

59. Im not joking, IM not even making the statement

just acting as a sounding board for the OP's argument.

From the other side of the fence, abortion is fatal (for the infant). Sure some abortions fail, so the real "mortality rate" is about 99%

Now if we just want to sit around and pat ourselves on the back and agree how ironclad our arguments are, we can do that to, but I don't believe its effective in making progress, or even holding the line for that matter.

[Caoimhe]

81. Um...

In many "abortions" the "infant" is already dead. It's referred to as a D&C and it is listed as "abortion" on all paperwork.

Abortions don't fail. Doctors don't ACCIDENTLY deliver live babies while trying to provide abortions, or miss their mark and suck out only uterine lining so that somehow the pregnancy survives (which would be impossible). That is more RW guttertripe emotobabble. That is like saying that tooth extractions fail sometimes. Score one for the tooth!

[Fescue4u]

87. Yes, Im aware of D&C's in the case of miscarriages

I would think that only the most zealot would understand that this is essentially an after the fact procedure and isn't elective, although Im sure that there are some fringe nutcases that wouldnt see it that way.

As for the the statement that abortions don't fail. Well I guess that would be semantically true. Just as we can could say that lethal injections never fail either, because if they did, then it wouldnt have been a *lethal* injection.

It seems to me that the controversy over abortion really isnt over the medical procedure called "abortion", so much as it is ending the pregnancy through human intervention. Its just that "abortion" has almost become short hand for both sides, to refer to a variety of non-natural pregenancy ending techniques (i.e. d&C, ru486, coat hangers etc etc)

[DemBones DemBones]

90. When the baby is dead prior to the D & C,

it should NOT be referred to as an abortion. The medical profession should know better.

[Tsiyu]

111. In medical terminology, a miscarriage is called a spontaneous abortion

The D&C was necessitated by the spontaneous abortion (death of fetus).

IIRC, of course, from my hospital days, that is the correct term.

If you truly believe Gawd micromanages every woman's womb, you might be shocked to learn how many "spontaneous abortions" Gawd, not a doctor, causes.

On edit: here is just one web page on "spontaneous abortion" I found while googling the term:


http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001488.htm

*snip*

It is estimated that up to 50% of all fertilized eggs die and are lost (aborted) spontaneously, usually before the woman knows she is pregnant. Among known pregnancies, the rate of spontaneous abortion is approximately 10% and usually occurs between the 7th and 12th weeks of pregnancy.

The risk for spontaneous abortion is higher in women over age 35, in women with systemic diseases such as diabetes or thyroid problems, and women with a history of three or more prior spontaneous abortions

*snip*

If a spontaneous abortion occurs, the signs of pregnancy decrease, the uterus begins shrinking to its original size, and a brownish or reddish vaginal discharge is often experienced. The tissue passed from the vagina should be examined to determine the source (fetal vs. hydatidiform mole). It is also important to determine whether any fetal tissue remains in the uterus. This is called an incomplete spontaneous abortion.

If remaining tissue is not naturally aborted in a reasonable amount of time (about 4 weeks), surgery (D and C or D and E) or medication will be required to complete the abortion. Medications include mifepristone, methotrexate, misoprostol, or a combination of these medications. Most women who use these medications do so because of a desire to avoid anesthesia and surgery if at all possible.

*snip*

(A little edumication for us all.....)

[OzarkDem]

61. If you have cancer, it may

Doctors today refuse to give chemo or radiation treatment to pregnant women dx with cancer. Tough choice for the women.

[Bridget Burke]

127. Some women choose to have the baby, anyway.

Since radiation & most chemo agents can damage the fetus, doctors SHOULD refuse to give those treatments to pregnant women.

Some women settle for minimal treatment until the baby is born.

Others--with worse prognoses or family responsibilities--terminate the pregnancy.

[mopinko]

130. doctors should?

doctors should give the patient the facts and let them decide.

[Bridget Burke]

136. Let the patient decide to poison her fetus?

Many chemotherapy agents are teratogenic. (Derived from the Greek word for "monster.") Radiation can also kill or deform the fetus. Would the parents accept whatever resulted or call their lawyer?

If the patient wants full-blown therapy immediately, pregnancy termination is the most humane option.

[mopinko]

142. most women would choose to terminate.

but it is not the doctor's choice to make, any more than any other life altering decision. i do not think any doctor should have the final say in any healthcare decision. ever.

[Bridget Burke]

150. Please review the facts.

Breast cancer sometimes appears during pregnancy. Here are suggestions for treatment during the different stages of pregnancy:

www.bccancer.bc.ca/HPI/CancerManagementGuidelines/Breast/Management/BreastCancerinPregnancy.htm

The patient can't force the MD's to give her radiation. And she can't force them to give her any chemo she wants. (Some regimens may be safe during pregnancy.)

[mopinko]

153. i'm just saying

doctors are never the final arbiter of medical treatment. this is a deep subject with me. they discuss, they offer, the advise, they have standards that they apply, but in the end, they do what the patient says. period. if a doctor is advising a woman, and he is putting the health of her fetus ahead of the health of his patient, he is violating his oath.

[BlueIris]

66. I just feel so sad for anyone who thinks being anti-choice is justifiable.

SAD. Get lives, you fat, lazy misogynists. Stay away from my personal, private reproductive health choices. Your sick views are only about controlling the women of the world; their autonomy, their well-being. It's so tragic that the patriarchal, misogynist authoritarian social system you were raised in left you feeling so threatened by the concept of equality for women, and so nasty, judgmental and mentally diseased that you would think restricting their choices is acceptable.

STOP TRYING TO OPPRESS ME, YOUR SISTERS, WIVES, FEMALE PARTNERS AND DAUGHTERS. DO SOMETHING FOR A CHANGE AND ACTUALLY DEFEND MY RIGHTS. THEN DO YOUR PART AND GET VASECTOMIES.

Otherwise, stop believing you have the right to benefit from the love of women, or of a civilized society.

[barb162]

135. I agree so much with what you write here.

But I am not sad for them. They scare the hell out of me, make me angry and I want them to mind their own damned business. It just isn't happening that way. They just stayed sort of underground, relatively speaking, for several years, but now they smell they can change things through the BIG court. The ones who make me the maddest are the young women who voted for Bush. I know one

[Iris]

148. right on, iris-sister!

:hi:

[jbnow]

70. I agree that there are risks

I have heard true horror stories. And even in a healthy pregnancy and delivery there are many things that can be difficult. Delivery hurts, it really hurts.

But "it always changes your body forever. for the worse." isn't quite true. My knees had been bad since childhood. When I got pregnant, before I even knew I was, my knees no longer hurt or swelled. They never have again and that baby is 31 now. My pimples went away and stayed away, but that could be that I was 17. PMS sure goes away. I could go on with other nice changes, but you get the idea.
I do use my 3 hours of labor to guilt him into sending me Godiva now and then...(I am weak from 3 hours of labor. The doctor says I need chocolate ASAP)
That's funny with 3 hours, wouldn't be with an average length first labor. I did not like the 3 hours. I hear so many women with 12 or 24 or even more of labor pains. You can't MAKE someone have to do that or go through major surgery to deliver. It's part of the deal of having a kid so if we CHOOSE it we deal with it, but I won't force anyone else to do it because you hold a zygote more precious then the woman's right to make the choice.
I know labor is just one aspect of what we go through, but I think that alone gives us the right to choose.

I get tired of hearing abortion isn't in the constitution. Are heart transplants? Chemotherapy? Laser surgery? Are those up to individual states to allow or ban?

[mopinko]

72. you don't have an stretch marks?

there were changes to your uterus and pelvic muscles and ligaments, whether you know it or not. there may have been changes to your immune system that you do not know about. it is a process that uses up your body.
ya know, i have 5 kids. they were not all planned. so, obviously, i am personally somewhat pro-life. but it gave me great peace of mind, while deciding what to do, to know that i was not trapped. that i remained in control. that i had a safe and legal option. my high school friends that "got in trouble" had to go to another state to "take care of it." if they started hemorrhaging when they got home, they might not be able to get good aftercare, especially if the local hospital was a catholic one.
and yet, no citizen of this state, male or female, is required to do anything to save any other life. even when doing so carries no risk to their life, health or happiness. it is not about life.

[Iris]

144. or have they outlawed in-vitro-fertilization, which creates "lives"

that end up in frozen limbo - at least if one believes life begins at conception.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mopinko]

82. even if you don't raise them

the idea that there is an equivalency between adoption and abortion is absurd in the extreme.

[Tsiyu]

79. Right on, mopinko

A stroll through any old cemetery will show you how many mothers died in childbirth back in the "good old days."

There is tremendous risk involved in carrying a child to term. Yes, it is a normal human process, but inadequate nutrition, anoemia obesity, diabetes, environment, etc can cause the "manufacturing" of another human life to put a life-threatening strain on the body of the mother doing all that manufacturing.

Pro-lifers want to pretend it's some walk in the park women avoid out of inconvenience. They never saw any mothers die from toxemia or placenta previa or any of the myriad complications presented in pregnancy.

[mopinko]

86. how many unmarried women

who work for fundies, would lose their jobs when their pregnancies announce to the world that they are not virgins?

[Greyhound]

94. mopinko, that's Exactly where we're headed. IMO n/t

[mopinko]

126. we are on a slippery slope if i ever saw one.

i think the next step will be harvesting organs at death. watch for it.

[newspeak]

102. year's ago on PBS

they had a group discussion about what would you do if they outlawed abortion. One woman on the panel was a woman doctor--she stated that she would do the abortion especially for underage girls-I don't remember the stats, but the younger the female, the higher the mortality rate. At 13, it was well over 50% chance of death. When I was pregnant with my daughter at 20, I was the only one in the post op room and I could hear the nurses say, she hasn't stopped bleeding. I knew they were talking about me-they came in and gave me another bag of plasma. So, anyone know what the stats are for women mortality due to birth?

[fasttense]

122. Newspeak here is site that has good info

on women's mortality rate due to pregnancy. Here is the link http://www.who.int/docstore/world-health-day/en/pages19...

I think it is something we don't talk about because the right has us convinced pregnancy is a walk in the park. It is not a walk in the park especially if you don't have access to medical care like many poor women. Now with so many people having no medical insurance, and the religious right limiting access to abortions, I suspect the death rate has gone up.

[mopinko]

129. thus my undying hatred of henry hyde

and the hyde amendment that prohibited the use of federal funds to provide abortions. and also, locally, former cook county board president and chairman of the cook county democratic party back in the daley days, george dunne, who single handedly stopped cook county hospital from doing abortions. 20 years later, i guess we should name a prison after him.

[Der Blaue Engel]

113. Right on, mopinko!

Reproductive choice is a matter of life and death. Always has been, always will be.

[mopinko]

125. that's why they cannot stop it,

they can only make it illegal= dangerous, expensive, exploitive.

[AirmensMom]

138. My first one almost killed me AND the baby.

Second one was a little better, but I was warned that the third one WOULD kill me. Too much damage. OK, so you do what you can (snip) and hope you're not that .1% (or whatever the minute number is) it doesn't work on. Now, if a third pregnancy had happened, was I supposed to die and leave my two young children without a mother, and their father without a wife? Thankfully, I never had to find out.

:shrug:

I am pro-life ... just not by THEIR definition. I'm also pro-choice ... and I'm afraid for my daughters who are still of child-bearing age. :scared:

[NNadir]

147. I can't believe we're even discussing this.

[mopinko]

149. sometimes i think i'm stuck in a time warp

i think this is about the 100,540,345,343 time i have had this discussion, and had to say, well, do you know that life is complicated? no, really, is it? you can't just make a law, and no more bad things happen? really?