The right wing's war on Halloween

[bluestateguy]

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/10/28/student_ghosts_unmasked_in_newton?mode=PF

NEWTON -- When students at Underwood Elementary School walk to their classrooms on Monday, there will be no witches, SpongeBob SquarePants, or Johnny Damons there to greet them.

No skeleton paintings or Frankenstein tattoos, either.

The school's principal said yesterday he acceded to the complaints of a handful of parents who said that because the school's traditional Halloween celebrations offended their religious beliefs, they would not send their children to school if the revelry continued this year.

''Not everyone is going to agree with the decision, and I really understand that," said principal David Castelline, , who last year grew a beard and dressed up as Johnny Damon. ''But I felt the goal was really important to make it a respectful and open and welcoming place for all members of our community."

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[FreedomAngel82]

1. So are they still going to do Christmas??

:eyes:

[NMMNG]

4. Of course

But it has to be called Christmas, not "winter holiday", because it is a Christian holiday. And those kids better not be singing any damn Kwanzaa songs, playing with a freaking dreidel or any of that multicultural crap either! :sarcasm:

[greyl]

10. There's no reason to be certain that it was a Christian handful.

Wiccan, Muslim... who knows?

edit: I'd guess they were Wiccan. They didn't say the holiday offended their religious beliefs, they said the way the school celebrated Halloween offended their religious beliefs.

[Der Blaue Engel]

13. No it does not say it was the way the school celebrated

I says "the school's traditional Halloween celebrations offended their religious beliefs." That could and probably does mean the fact of the celebration itself.

Neither I nor any other Wiccans I've ever met or read about would refuse to send their children to school because of Halloween celebrations. Some of the more uptight among us might take offense at the portrayal of witches, but they would be far more likely to ask the school to raise awareness of what witchcraft is really about than to take the fun away from all of the children.

Now, when I was in gradeschool, I knew plenty of Christian parents who refused to send their children to school because of Halloween celebrations...including my own.

[izzie]

16. Was not Halloween a religious holiday?

Guess I will have to look that one up.

[Der Blaue Engel]

26. Yes, it's a Wiccan holiday

called Samhain (pronounced sah-wen).

In the Christian tradition, it's All Hallow's Eve, because November 1 is All Saints (hallows) Day.

Here's a Catholic site that gives more history of the Church's appropriation of the pagan holiday:
http://www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/Oct2001/Family.asp

[izzie]

28. So why is any one up tight about it any how> It is just fun.

Heck half the Ch. holidays and painting came from Rome.

[Der Blaue Engel]

32. Fundies hate fun

especially when it's not about them.

[greyl]

96. It's, practically, an American holiday.

Samhain was around millenia before Wicca.

[LostinVA]

102. Samhaim nd Halloween are not the same thing!

I grew up Catholic and am now Pagan: Halloween is Christian, Samhaim is Pagan. Much like Christmas is Christina and the Winter Solstice is Pagan. It is NOT the same holiday... one morphed from the other.

And, many people one this thread are using "Wicca" to mean all Neo-Pagans. Wicca is just one of the traditions ("denominations").

[LostinVA]

101. Halloween is a Christian Holiday

All Hallow's Eve -- mainly an RC/Anglican one, as the Puritans condemned it. Samhaim, however, is a Pagan holy day, the Pagan New Year, basically, and one where we honor those who have died before us. VERY much like All Soul's Day!

[greyl]

42. "School's traditional" is "the way".

As opposed to the "authentic pagan" way, perhaps.

"Neither I nor any other Wiccans I've ever met or read about would refuse to send their children to school because of Halloween celebrations."

You haven't met them all. ;)

[Der Blaue Engel]

80. "Traditional" as in, they've traditionally celebrated Halloween

and now they're not allowed to.

Haven't met them all, no, but I've sure read about a lot of them. :)

Take a look on Google and see how many instances you turn up of pagans objecting to their children celebrating Halloween at school versus Christians. What these fundies do is mindboggling. Heard of Hell Houses? The fundies and their ilk have had a war on Halloween for a long, long time.

[greyl]

84. tap tap tap ... Is this thing on?

I'm aware of the Christian opposition to Halloween.
I'm also aware that this article doesn't mention Christians.
Furthermore, I'm aware that Wiccans have had their issues with Halloween.
Considering all that and that this school is 15 miles from Salem, and that the first Halloween costumes mentioned in the article are "witches", the possibility remains that the handful are not Christians.

Your comments seem like they're coming from a religiously biased point of view (which is common). In your case, "There aren't any "fundy" Pagans, and they would never want to spoil the fun for the children anyway, they just want to raise consciousness" vs "Christian fundamentalists are responsible for spoiling the fun at Underwood, because... just look at their rotten ridiculous history".

My input in this thread has been focused around reading this article without jumping to hasty conclusions. I would never argue against you about the notion that Fundy Christians totally suck.

Critical Thinking, on the other hand... ;)

[kevinbgoode]

87. I doubt that the Wiccans would mount this kind of

campaign in multiple localities at the same time. Moreover, the style of confrontation appears to be more in line with the "christian" fundie approach to making political statements. As some have noted here, for example, Jehovah's Witnesses would quietly adhere to their beliefs without demanding others abandon their plans. Since others on this thread have indicated they have received similar notes this holiday from their own local school, it is much more likely this is another battle in the fundamentalist culture war.

Frankly, I don't care WHO did this - just exactly WHAT kind of parent would have their child tell a teacher that they'll not be allowed to come to school if the rest of the class celebrates Halloween?

[greyl]

89. "WHAT kind of parent would have their child...."

One that was upset about the holiday being blasphemed, or not taken seriously enough, or a crazy fundy of any salvationist religion.

And what do you mean by mounting a campaign in multiple localities?
That's not in the article at all either.

[Der Blaue Engel]

107. I'm not sure why you've decided to descend into condescending

rudeness, but fine. Happy New Year! :)

[greyl]

118. Chalk it up to mild frustration.:) nt

[FreedomAngel82]

92. Oh brother

Every year my church has Halloween parties and stuff. Last night my parents went to a "country" party and the little kids that went dressed up. A little boy my family knows was dressed as a little boxer. ;) And my church the service before Halloween has a little thing called "trunk-or-treat" where the kids dress up and go to the vehicles and have fun. A Presbyterian church down the road is also having that.

[Der Blaue Engel]

110. I'm sorry, I should have specified

I was referring to fundies. Obviously, there are many Christians who are not fundies, and therefore are not crazy and hateful. :)

[Warren DeMontague]

18. Who knows? ...Yeah, right.

I would eat my fucking HAT if the parents who 'complained' were ANYTHING but Fundamentalist Christians. Give me a break.

[greyl]

24. You're sure, but have no direct evidence.

I'm not saying that I have evidence that the parents aren't Christians, and I'm not saying that you are probably wrong. I'm saying that you're drawing a hasty conclusion that may have you eating your hat.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that the complainers were Christian, but there is nothing in this story or others I found about Underwood that mentions Christians.

[Dr.Phool]

35. Christians, the loony, Jack Chick fundy variety

Have been bitching about Halloween since I was a kid in school, and I'm in my 50's now. They think it's a day for Satan. Just look at how wacky they get over Harry potter movies and books.

[greyl]

40. Yeah, I'm aware of all that. I'm also aware of this from last year:

All Hallow's Out

There's a breed of fundamentalist Christian that protests whenever a school celebrates Halloween and thus, by their lights, promotes witchcraft. Now those easily offended Christians have some unlikely allies: easily offended witches.
----------
"She said schools have had complaints from followers of the Wiccan religion who are offended at the way Halloween is celebrated. Hansen said schools are teaching students to be respectful and take account of the discomfort felt by others.

She said that witches with pointy noses are not "respective symbols of the Wiccan religion" and that their district wants to be respectful of that."
http://www.reason.com/hitandrun/2004/10/all_hallows_out.shtml

Why is it so hard to believe that someone from just about any religion, or even an atheist, could protest having a public school sanction the celebration of Halloween?

[schrodingers_cat]

73. These are the same folks that don't give a second thought to

blaspheming the death of Jesus by dressing adults up as large overweight rabbits and decorating the embryonic casings of chickens with paints every year sometime around April.


Yawn............

[Warren DeMontague]

109. The funniest part about the whole Easter ("Ishtar") thing...

is that the rabbits and eggs are symbols of fertility and, (gasp!) fucking-- you know, that's what rabbits do...

But tell your average uptight, repressed, joyless, sexless Christian Fundy that they're celebrating mother nature and rampant, lusty copulation, to boot... and their friggin' heads are likely to 'splode.

[LostinVA]

103. Exactly -- Pagans are not behind this

[greyl]

113. Carla says they are. You have no evidence otherwise. nt

[misternormal]

39. You can bet it wasn't wiccans or pagans

Samhain, pronounced sow-an marks one of the two great doorways of the Celtic year, for the Celts divided the year into two seasons: the light and the dark, at Beltane on May 1st and Samhain on November 1st. Some believe that Samhain was the more important festival, marking the beginning of a whole new cycle, just as the Celtic day began at night. For it was understood that in dark silence comes whisperings of new beginnings, the stirring of the seed below the ground. Whereas Beltane welcomes in the summer with joyous celebrations at dawn, the most magically potent time of this festival is November Eve, the night of October 31st, known today of course, as Halloween.


http://www.celticspirit.org/samhain.htm

[greyl]

43. This school is 15 miles from Salem.

Wiccans have protested Halloween before.

Why would I want to bet that this story isn't about Wiccans?

[LostinVA]

104. Because you know it isn't

It's always Fundies who freak out over Halloween. Some Pagans do dislike the way witches are portrayed, but they never organize like this. Mainly because Pagans don't proselytize.

[greyl]

112. No I don't, nor do you. You've overlooked some posts here.

And what do you mean by "organize like this"?

[newspeak]

61. it is Samhain--and I celebrate every year

it is the Eve of Celtic new year---also Nov. 1 is All Saints Day. I've never heard such bunk-if those parents want to keep their children home, let them. And, any good Christian knows that Yeshua was not born on December 25th!!!! In December, is Solstice and pagan nordic celebration.

[LostinVA]

100. They aboslutely weren't Wicca

I'm Pagan, and every Pagan I know does NOT have a problem with Halloween. THese were Christians, I guarantee it, which shows how damned ignorant they are. Why? Because:

1.) Pagans do not believe in Satan, Lucifer, etc. He is a Judeo-Christian-Muslim belief.

2.) Halloween is not Pagan. SAMHAIM is Pagan. The difference between the two is night and day. Kids don't eat Samhain candy, dress in Samhain costumes, etc. And the Fundies KNOW this. I'm 41, and as a kid, I went to Halloween parties at RC, Baptist, Methodist, etc. churches. EVERYONE participated!

[greyl]

116. Absolutely? That's bold of you.

"She said schools have had complaints from followers of the Wiccan religion who are offended at the way Halloween is celebrated. Hansen said schools are teaching students to be respectful and take account of the discomfort felt by others.

She said that witches with pointy noses are not "respective symbols of the Wiccan religion" and that their district wants to be respectful of that."
http://www.reason.com/hitandrun/2004/10/all_hallows_out.shtml

[Contrary1]

25. My son teaches here in Indiana...

no Christmas allowed. The teachers can only decorate with "Winter" themes. Snowmen, sledding, skating, etc...

What a bummer it must be to be a child these days.

[kath]

69. The child can celebrate whatever holidays his/her family celebrates

AT HOME, and/or in the family's place of worship. Public schools need to be inclusive of ALL students.

[proud2BlibKansan]

56. My school district calls it a winter holiday

and we have no religious songs at winter programs in school.

It works both ways. They are taking Halloween away so we took Christmas out of the schools too.

This is the logic I use in the pledge argument. If this is today one nation under God, how long until we pledge to one nation under Allah?

[Union Thug]

22. Um, that's Winter Holidays. Make a note of it! :-)

Next time I see a kid celebrating halloween with religious zealotry, I might reconsider my thoughts. But Halloween is a kids' activity night. It is certainly not a religious event. The funniest, most ironic thing of all is when the fundies provide an alternate "harvest celebration". Considering the celebration of the harvest is much more similar to a pagan ritual than a bunch of kids dressed as Buzz Lightyear or the wolfman, you have to wonder if these people ever remove their heads from their collective asses.

[johnaries]

94. They shouldn't - it was ALSO a Pagan holiday!

Ever heard of "Yule"? Yep, a Pagan holiday held on the winter solstice. "Christmas" trees, holiday wreaths, mistletoe, gift-giving, Yule logs, etc. were all Pagan Yule traditions before Jesus was ever born.

Jesus' birthday? He was born sometime in March or April.

[NMMNG]

2. These fundies are out of control

The school's principal said yesterday he acceded to the complaints of a handful of parents

Screw a handful of parents. This is how these bastards are taking over the country--a "handful" here and there make waves and bully people into doing what they want. Next thing you know, policies are changed, laws are rewritten, corrupt politicians bamboozle their way into office and the whole nation is effed up.

[kevinbgoode]

30. Exactly. . .

What ticks me off about this is the idea that, if a handful of people had personal religious beliefs that dictated they could not participate, then why didn't they just quietly state that privately to the principal instead of sending their CHILDREN to school to make an announcement to the TEACHERS? That sounds way like a fundie tactic to me - it's more a political bullying statement than a deeply-held belief. . .

So do the schools cancel winter vacation (Christmas) or reschedule it because Jewish children are going to school during Hannukkah?

There are religious schools for a reason.

[NMMNG]

33. Because we are a Christian nation UNDER GOD

And everyone better damn well get used to it or move the hell to Canada. :sarcasm:

[kath]

70. Yes, and if the schools always make sure that kids have off for Christmas

and often for Good Friday, then they should also have off for Yom Kippur, Rosh Hoshanah, Passover, Eid and other Muslim holidays, Eastern Orthodox holidays, etc.

[Trillo]

3. Comply with a few?

when are educators going 'get'democracy?

Personally, I give them an "F". They're certainly something from which to protect one's children.

[DanCa]

5. Can we call this the suck the fun out of everything administration.

Every frackin' holiday these people ruin. First it was christmas now Halloween. I really can't stand 'em.

[murielm99]

6. Why are these idiots allowed to hold the rest of us hostage

to their beliefs?

When my daughter was in first grade, I helped with her classroom Halloween party. There was a little girl who was a Jehovah's Witness. Her mother came and took her home from school, because their religious beliefs did not allow her to participate. It was done quietly, without all kinds of stupid religious hollering.

When I was in high school, my advanced English class read Catcher in the Rye. One girl's family objected. She was given a different book assignment. She went to study hall to do her reading during the times we discussed the book. She was a friend of mine. She was very bright and religious. Her family upheld their principles quietly, without stupid religious hollering.

If my child went to that school, I would be doing lots of secular hollering. And I would organize other parents to yell right along with me. They won't send their kids to school if the revelry continues? Well, bye-bye, then. Don't let the door hit you in the self-righteous ass on the way out.

[NMMNG]

9. That's not the way it's done anymore

These people aren't the "keep it to themselves" type. They want to shout it in the streets and push it in everyone elses' faces. If everyone else objects, too bad--they have to leave. This is evangelism taken to the Nth degree; "I'm going to give you God or you'll die from me trying".

[kevinbgoode]

31. Maybe the parents should all get together

and plan their OWN school party. . .and every one of them keep THEIR children out of school for the day. Then the principal can explain to the school board how the grade school was open only for a handful of children whose parents ordered to go to school and tell their teachers that Halloween had to be canceled.

[sleipnir]

7. What a pushover. He's a pathetic administrator.

But then again, most low level educational admins have failed for some reason or other and that's why they are in charge of an elementary school. Granted, a very small handful of people really want to do that work, but most are placed there through the greater Darwinian wheel because of their incompetence or failure to take their own actions.

[LostInAnomie]

19. That is incredibly unfair.

Although you put a small qualifier in your post that does not make up for a incredibly unfair generalization. Most administrators are not placed in elementary administration because of incompetence or failure. They are highly educated professionals who usually have at least two masters degrees or a doctorate. These positions are highly sought after by those in education and competition is high for open jobs.

I know your post was meant as a sight against this particular administrator but don't demean the profession as a whole to try to make a point against one person.

[Union Thug]

23. Thank you for pointing this out. I felt the same way.

This particular administrator may be a spineless sea sponge, but I've been nothing but impressed by those with whom I've worked both in the parent/school relationship and in a professional relationship.

[BiggJawn]

48. Wonder if he's subject to a Dominionist School Board?

Just a Fundy or 2 on the board can derail any important business they need to work on while they're forced to debate out how many angels can dance on the rim of the basketball hoop in the Gym...

[dsc]

74. actually the exact opposite is often true

The ranks of elementary principals nearly universally come from assistants who have done well at a high school or middle school or from teachers who have excelled in the classroom. Admittedly some of those do poorly when given their own building but most flourish.

[oldtime dfl_er]

8. How is this decision "open and welcoming" to the 90% who want to

dress up like Johnny Damon? The goal here apparently is to kowtow to the loudest complainers. Friggin ridiculous.

http://www.cafepress.com/scarebaby/938430

[Aimah]

11. When Will They Learn

I'm sure when someone decides to contest Christmas they're going to be ticked. I've never celebrated Christmas and had to go 13 years of schooling with Christmas Trees and Christmas Carols my parents never made a big deal. I just didn't participate in Secret Santa. If they're going to go after Halloween then everything should go.

[greyl]

12. Why do you say "right wing"? nt

[Aimah]

15. There are Evangelical e-mails and articles floating on the net

telling people not to celebrate Holloween. I guess one would assume that they are right-wing.

[greyl]

44. So? The school is 15 miles from Salem, wiccans have protested

halloween in the past, and the article doesn't specify which religious group protested. The article doesn't even say it was one religious group, only a handful of people.

[LostinVA]

105. What does being close to Salem mean? You keep on and on

About that? So frigging what. These are Fundies. I'll find out and PM you tomorrow.

[greyl]

114. Have you been to Salem lately? Guess not.

I think they are fundies too, I'm not just certain of what variety.

[kestrel91316]

121. There aren't any fundie Wiccans.

[greyl]

119. "I'll find out and PM you tomorrow." Any news?

It would be nice to know one way or the other. :)

[kestrel91316]

120. I think somebody HERE has a little problem with Wiccans and

wants to blame them.............if you get my drift.

[LostInAnomie]

14. For lurking Freepers who are looking at this thread.

I know you will take this thread and try to draw parallels to how the Left "makes war" on Christian holidays. The difference between our objections to a small group taking away festivities, and your objections is that the the Left objects to public schools using funds and school time for programs and festivities that are used for evangelizing for a certain religion. Your side objects to essentially secular festivities that have little if any real religious significance to any religion.

Halloween, Christmas, St. Valentines Day, etc. have become secularized enough that they shouldn't really offend anyone's beliefs. It is silly to think that a kid dressed as Shrek, Spiderman, or their favorite sports star would be advocating or proselyting for Witchcraft or Paganism. Just as it is silly that Santa, Frosty, and Rudolph are promoting Christianity.

[Aimah]

17. I wouldn't mind personally having Christmas taken out of schools.

In favor of more of a winter celebration which some more liberal school districts do. It can be a bit awkward being the only kid in class having to answer to the things you're excluded from doing. If there is really going to be a separation of church and state I don't think any religious holidays should be in public schools. Halloween isn't a religious holiday though.

[Union Thug]

21. especially since Santa (and perhaps Rudolph) could be argued to be..

proselytizing not xmas but paganism/Yuletide. ;-)

[Union Thug]

20. Offend their religious beliefs.. OH BOO HOO.

Capitulating to the bleating of a few whining, backward medievalists is NOT what any of us should be doing..

[Borgnine]

27. Jesus H. Christ.

What's John Gibson's new book called? The War on Christmas, about how liberals are trying to ban the holiday?

It's horseshit, but someone really needs to write a book about the war on Halloween, as so many conservatives are trying to ruin this fun celebration with their batshit insanery.

[WildEyedLiberal]

36. "Insanery" is a great word

:P

[Borgnine]

37. These bastards practically require new words to be coined.

As the old ones don't properly convey the outrage I feel towards them.

[kevinbgoode]

29. There are reasons why we have religious schools.

[Aimah]

77. I always figured so..

but they always find a way to mix religion into public school. When I was a kid in the late 80s we had to fight our public school school because they wanted the class to say a prayer together before lunch and had bible selling drives. Not saying that these things still exsist or are the norm but what is considered ok or offensive is different depending on who's setting the rules.

[truthisfreedom]

34. they only hate it because us Dems refer to it lovingly as "The Nightmare

before Fitzmas."

[ET Awful]

38. So are they going to cancel Easter too? After all, it has similar origins

contrary to the now popular mythos that it celebrates Christ's resurrection, it actually has it's origins in pagan traditons circulating around Baal, Ishtar and Tammuz.

The whole rabits, eggs, and, for that matter, the not eating meat for several days (lent), etc. all originates not in Christianity, but in older traditions.

[Branjor]

41. Jeez.......

Halloween is just a fun holiday for kids. When I was little we had Halloween parties organized by our Sunday School.

[rainbow4321]

45. Christians use Halloween to witness

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/102905dnreltracts.706da06.html

Faith Meyer gives the good stuff at Halloween – Snickers, Butterfingers and Baby Ruths. But each child who stops by her North Dallas home also gets a Gospel tract.

Evangelical Christians have long debated whether to observe Halloween, with its pagan roots and witchcraft imagery. But an increasing number of evangelicals are, like Ms. Meyer, making Oct. 31 a prime time for witnessing. They do so with colorful little booklets whose bottom line is that only those who profess Jesus as savior will go to heaven.

Americans long ago adapted Halloween into a secular night for costume-clad, candy-craving kids. But many evangelicals – who insist on a "born again" Christianity and see the Bible as infallible – distrust the occasion's pagan heritage and associations.

The Internet carries postings from evangelicals arguing against observing Halloween. These days, it's common for evangelical and even mainline churches to offer a fall festival as a substitute for neighborhood trick-or-treating.

[costas254]

46. Sounds like Halloween could go the way of the British piggy bank

As fringe religious extremists and their stooges set out to destroy another well-loved tradition. Tolerance just aint hip no more.

[Zodiak]

47. I think a handful of parents should watch...

the "King of the Hill" Halloween episode. A neighborhood lady was fighting against the holiday and had the whole town scared of offending her. Good ole "traditional values" Hank Hill was brave enough to put on a devil costume and walk down the street saying "Trick or treat...dang it!", and the town came out and celebrated Halloween because it is FUN!!!

A great show

[cmd]

49. We went through that phase years ago

Fall parties, no costumes. I loved it when the parents who brought treats covered them with Halloween symbols. They always gave candy in trick or treat baggies. The parents that objected to Halloween never volunteered for their precious "fall parties".

We then got a new principal who was not intimidated by the fundies. She met them at the door wearing a costume.

[Liberal In Texas]

50. What a bunch of uptight idiots. Screw 'em!

Halloween is more fun than Christmas. Xmas has become nothing more than a frenzy for retailing. We've been socialized to such an extent that if we don't spend oodles of money (even to the extent of going into debt) for giving gifts, we feel inadequate and depressed.

Halloween is about dressing up in funny costumes and giving bits of candy away. It doesn't last for 3 months, and when it's over, it's over.

I much prefer Halloween to Xmas.

[mucifer]

51. it's just different beliefs

I'm a pediatric nurse. I think halloween is fun. I have had patients before (only one or 2) who I've asked what they will be on halloween and they said something like, "I don't celibrate the devil's day". That is there right and their belief. Is it such a big deal to do halloween after school?

[Liberal In Texas]

64. I don't mind different beliefs. As long as long as they don't try to

impose those beliefs on other people. If someone is curious about someone's beliefs and asks about it, fine. But these fundies like to proselytize and keep others from enjoying beliefs different from their own. Halloween is just about fun, not devil worship (for most people), and they should just shut up.

Your patients should have simply said that they don't do Halloween and left it at that. By making sure you know they think it is evil, they are attempting to impose their beliefs on you. This is wrong.

They're the first ones to get all uptight about any protests to spending tax money for religious displays on government property. (Of course, their religion, not say, Islam, or some other evil practice.)

[Dulcinea]

60. I'm with you!

The older I get, the more I just tolerate Christmas. Whatever religious significance it has has been buried by relentless commercialism, illustrated in spades by the mouth-breathers who stake out Wal-Mart to buy things the day after Thanksgiving. Why does the TV news cover such drivel anyway?

Christmas displays in October? Ugh! Wild horses wouldn't drag me near a mall in December, either.

Decorating? No thanks. Put all that crap up just to take it down again 3 weeks later? Who needs it? It's nothing but a hassle.

I like Halloween & Thanksgiving much better; Halloween is all about fun & Thanksgiving involves eating tasty food & watching football!

:rant:

[Liberal In Texas]

65. Yes, I'm getting to dread Halloween and T'giving only because it means

that Xmas is going to now rev up to high gear. I'm to the point that I can't wait for Xmas to be over.

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. This is really happening folks.

We have been told no costumes or references to Halloween anymore. If we want to have a party, we have to call it a Fall Festival party.

And we will be having Winter Parties and Spring Festivals.

[mucifer]

53. I like halloween,too. But, I've also heard a termanilly ill child

tell me it was the devil's day. I don't think any child should feel uncomfortable in school. I, as a Jew, would be very uncomfortable if every year I had to go to a Christmas party. Everyone should be respected.

[proud2BlibKansan]

55. It isn't school that is making them uncomfortable

It is their fundie parents.

I have taught for 26 years. Until a few years ago, we had alternate activities for kids whose parents chose to not have them participate in parties. We have always had quite a few Jehova kids. They would spend the afternoon in the computer lab while their class had a party. That worked well.

Then the fundies went nuts over Halloween. We used to have a huge party at school on Halloween night. The kids were safe instead of out trick or treating. Now we can't even do that anymore. And the sad part is that the majority of our kids DO celebrate Halloween. They will be out on the streets this year instead of safe at school. All because of a few loud mouthed fundies.

[mucifer]

57. the computer lab instead of a party sounds like lots of fun.

I think you should open your mind to other ideas. Like I said before, I'm Jewish. I like halloween. But, these partys are being payed for by people's tax money. To them it probably can be seen as a separation of church and state issue.

[kevinbgoode]

67. When I was growing up, these parties were being paid for

by the children AND their own fundraising AND designated "party" money that was sent to school for the year's celebrations for EVERY holiday.

There are religious schools for a reason. Demanding that hundreds of others forego celebrating a long traditional holiday in school simply because some local minister comes up with this "deeply-held" belief that it is devil worship doesn't convince me of crap. . .let the handful of parents remove their children from school for the day if they like - that's THEIR choice.

Otherwise, frankly, I'd be all for the REST of the parents removing their children for the day, asking the city for a parade permit, and parade down the damned Main Street with their children in costumes and a big afternoon party while the weather is still nice. Let the half dozen fundie children spend the day in school supervised by dozens of teachers and a principal.

[proud2BlibKansan]

71. Tax money does not pay for our parties

In every school I have taught, it works the same way. The teacher sends a note home telling the parents we are having a party, send treats IF YOU WANT. No one is ever forced. I always told my class that if I heard any of them had gone home and said 'My teacher said I HAVE TO bring treats', they would be in big trouble with me. Anyway, the party stuff is always supplied by the kids. Some years, I would get enough candy at Halloween to supply the whole school. Other years, barely enough for the class. I taught for 4 years in a school with a majority of Asian kids and they would bring the best Chinese food you could ever taste. I also usually bought the paper goods - cute little napkins and treat bags. And I usually bought the drinks. But those things were paid for by me, not the school.

So the cost was never absorbed by the school district. I would imagine that is pretty standard. I can't imagine any school being able to justify an expense for party treats in their budget, which is approved by the school district.

I also always put treat bags together for the kids whose parents asked that they not participate. I believe most teachers do that as well. It is only fair. The kids aren't the ones choosing not to participate in the holiday celebration, it is their parents.

[Swamp Rat]

54. If I were a parent, I'd show up in a costume and give out candy.

As well, I'd call a bunch of other parents, who I thought might be willing, and ask them to do the same, before AND after school. :)

BOO!



:rofl:

[Francine Frensky]

58. Odd because Halloween is actually based on a catholic holy day

Nov. 1 is All Saints Day and Nov. 2 is All Souls Day, so the early catholic church used to have festivals (coinciding with pagan festivals at that time of year of course, see Christmas for further info on stealing pagan holidays)....on this day, making it sort of a party before a holy day, like Mardi Gras is the day before Lent begins. All Hallow's Eve became Halloween. So this is Mardi Gras for kids and it's a shame to see it disappear from schools.

Fall is a time for people to remember the dead and the Catholic church celebrates the saints on Nov. 1 and the not-so-saintly (everybody else who has died) on Nov. 2.

Just a little fyi from a sunday school teacher.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

63. Yes, but they stole THAT from Wicca-- the holiday of Samhaim. nt

[greyl]

93. No, they didn't. How old do you think Wicca is? nt

[NuttyFluffers]

95. samhain is ancient

wiccan, as the modern "organized" version of european paganism, is not very old. the term may be around 100 years old at best, most like around 70 years.

that said paganism is throughout the world and unbelievably ancient. and european paganism is far older than christianity, let alone catholicism. this particular pagan holiday can be traced to european druidism, stuff that's been before rome was knee-high to a village.

now, that said, the current quick catch-all term for this european paganism and its revival is "wiccan." not everyone likes to use the term, and some like to distinguish themselves as separate or wholly uninvolved, but c'est la vie, that's the current vernacular. FYI, YMMV, KIT, RSVP, and MVP MPH MSRP... :P

[greyl]

98. I never said it wasn't.

I was talking about how old Wicca is.

And yes, it's less than 70 years old.

[SeanQuinn]

59. I was Damon last year,

Bush this year.

Suck on that.

Our priest asks us to be saints, not something bloody and dark so a wise-ass and most likely Dem SS/Religion teacher said later: "You all should be John the Baptist, if you want the headless, bloody aspect."

[WritingIsMyReligion]

62. OMG! Evil Pagan holidays!! AIIIIE! Let's just ignore X-mas, then.

Because the man Jesus was really born in spring, but we said he's born in December so those early pagans we recruited would join up.

NOTHING in Christianty is original.

[LibDemAlways]

66. Ridiculous

At my daughter's elementary school there was always a costume parade around the schoolyard first thing on Halloween. Then the kids had to change back into their street clothes for the rest of the day. Anyone not wearing a costume was welcome to watch the parade. I fail to see how kids dressed up as football players, cheerleaders, cats, pumpkins, and yes, a few ghosts and witches, could be so "offensive."

Wonder if these same people take their kids to visit Santa before Christmas? Doesn't that conflict with their religious principles? Some people need to seriously get a life.

[LiberalPersona]

68. Halloween?

Ok, that's just stupid. Unless they have a problem with the fact that most people consider Halloween to be a secular holiday, I don't see how it could "offend their religious beliefs."

What I see here is a typical case of party pooper stick-up-my ass grinches.

[OnionPatch]

72. My daughter's school is doing the same thing

She came out of her school last week looking sad and saying, "We aren't going to have Halloween at school." She gave me a letter that says: Dear Parent or guardian: In an effort to be sensitive to all families' beliefs and sensitivities, we do not celebrate Halloween at *******Elementary. We greatly appreaciate your understanding and cooperation. Please do not send treats, costumes, etc........

Then they say there is a festival at the town Civic Center. I knew about that festival and it is a Halloween party with costume contest and the whole nine yards. So at least the kids have somewhere to celebrate.

Seems strange to me that people would be offended about Halloween but who knew? :shrug: There are definitely a lot of fundies in the community but I personally know several Wiccans as well. I'll have to ask and see if I can get the scoop on who wanted Halloween canceled and why.

[kevinbgoode]

82. Yes, please do. . .

It's time we found out if this is some orchestrated effort or not. We need to remember that religious beliefs are personal CHOICES, not imposed restrictions. These schools could respect the religious beliefs of all students without requiring everyone else to NOT celebrate anything at all. And I hate the way these parents hurt their own children by demonizing others as it is. . .it seems to me that this is an organized effort to remove one of the few holidays celebrated at school that children look forward to every year.

[dsc]

75. While the parents here may have given the excuse

in all honesty testing mania has made schools try to find ways to get rid of any celebrations that use class time. I wouldn't be surprised if that is one big reason he gave in.

[CornField]

76. That is almost to the letter the same note I received

from my daughter's elementary school here in Eastern Iowa.

Each year the school had a party at the end of the day. The students participated in a parade -- marching in the hallways and around the building. This year, a letter was set maybe three weeks ago explaining that some students had not been able to attend school that day because of the Hallowe'en celebrations and that the powers that be felt the school should be a welcoming place for all.

On Monday morning, my daughter will go to school and she will be wearing something festivus. I'm sick of my children having to give up the fun, warm, good memories of childhood because a few Christians can't see past their own religious dogma to view Hallowe'en as a day of fun.

I want to add here that I'm pagan and Monday night, after my children do the traditional door-to-door business, we will be particapating in Samhain. Having a children's tradition in no way influences our religious life. I wish others could say the same.

[sproutster]

78. This shit is out of control - At my CORPRATE workplace they are calling it

Octoberfest -- What the fuck, they are so against spooks they take a holiday known for DRINKING?

Fuck em all. Pissed off.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

79. Odd. We MUST NOT do Halloween, but Christmas is required...?

Dickweeds like John Gibson say evil liberals are suppressing Christmas because they can't have Christmas parties at school. But it's OK to forbid some other holiday because that holiday offends the fundies.

[leesa]

81. The Fundies ruining yet another harmless holiday..and then they will blame

it on the liberals like they did the ruination of Christmas

[callady]

83. The souls of the dead are hungry and thirsty

On 31st October, the eve of All Saints Day, the people of England celebrate Hallowe'en, or All Hallows' (meaning hallowed or holy) Eve.

In ancient Britain this date was the pre-Christian eve of the New Year and Celtic Harvest Festival, when the souls of the dead were thought to revisit their homes to eat and drink. People left refreshments on the table and unlocked their doors before retiring for the night, then bells were rung, fires lit to guide the returning souls back to earth and animals were brought in for the winter.

After Hallowe'en became a Christian festival, supernatural associations continued to thrive. It was believed that witches were abroad and that it was possible for certain people to perform magic and summon up spirits. Torches (made from cabbage stalks and bundles of dried heather dipped in grease) were carried and spells were chanted, in the hope that souls condemned to purgatory (from Purgatory Field, Poulton & Purgatory Farm at Weston, Lancashire) would find some relief.

Hallowe'en was also a time for rituals and divination, when nuts were roasted by young women and apple pips scattered on hot coals - the behaviour of the pips indicating the temperament of their future spouses. Fortunes were told with apples and cabbages; children bobbed for apples in tubs of water; girls combed their hair three times before a mirror in the hope of seeing their future husbands; and lanterns were made from swedes and turnips (gouged out to form a face with a grinning mouth), then kept alight from from dusk until dawn.

Hallowe'en was once a time for making mischief - many parts of England still recognise this date as Mischief Night - when children would knock on doors demanding a treat (Trick or Treat) and people would disguise themselves as witches, ghosts, kelpies and spunkies, in order to obtain food and money from nervous householders. In certain parts of England youths still play pranks on their neighbours by hiding garden ornaments, whitewashing walls and ringing doorbells in the dead of night.

There are a great many local traditions associated with 31st October. For instance, Hallowe'en is known as Dookie Apple Night in Newcastle upon Tyne, where the local children parade through the streets carrying traditional turnip lanterns. Then in Somerset's Hinton St George, where punkies (Hallowe'en lanterns) are carved from mangel-wurzels on the last Thursday in November (Punky Night), children go through the streets singing. When they knock on doors they receive either money or a candle from the householder. This custom is believed to have originated when the women of the village walked to nearby Chriselborough Fair with punkies to light their way, and from there dragged their drunken husbands home.

http://englishculture.allinfoabout.com/features/halloween.html

[greyl]

85. "there were/was a wicca practicioner (NOT a Christian) who was offended. "

"OK, here is the 'real' scoop as far as I can tell. Apparently, there were/was a wicca practicioner (NOT a Christian) who was offended. My guess is because Halloween makes fun of witches. The poor church youth group accross the street happened to be hosting a costume (yes, a Halloween party) the same night and got bombarded with reporters asking youth and their parents why they are opposed to the holiday. Not sure what any reporter got out of them, cause I haven't seen a thing about that part of it. Now, I've been living with the dad-gummed easter bunny and santa clause for many years. They have not much, if anything to do with Xmas and Easter. By golly, the witches can handle a couple of pointy hats and brooms, in my opinion.

By the way, I also think there are many better questions to be asking of public schools, like where are all the aids and librarians, etc. Who cares if they don't get dressed up?"
http://tonguetied.us/tt_pda.html

Carla isn't the NY Times, but - I'm just saying there is no reason to believe that right wing Christians were the ones complaining here. That knowledge is not contained in the damn article!

Come on, I depend on you guys to read all of the headlines with a critical mind. :)
:)

[kevinbgoode]

88. This isn't the only case.

[greyl]

91. What isn't the only case?

Who said "it" was?

[fishwax]

86. he should have just told them not to come (n/t)

[greyl]

90. I agree. :) nt

[ulysses]

97. morons.

Idiots. Stupid fucksticks.

[jmm]

99. I love the alternative they're offering

Later in the year, he said, the school plans a costume celebration in which teachers and perhaps students will be encouraged to dress as their favorite literary characters.

Like I posted in the MA forum don't they realize Frankenstein and Dracula are literary characters? If I was a teacher or student I would have too much much fun with that one.

Got to love how a bunch of witches, vampires, Dragon Ball Z characters, princesses and firemen are more offensive to some people's religious beliefs than St. Nicholas.

[TheGunslinger]

106. ABC just covered this and they called it "political correctness run amok"

More like vengeful pseudo-Christians pissed off because the JEWISH Ten Commandmants aren't on display in their school.


I wonder if these same "religiously offended" will be similarly thoughtful of those of OTHER religions come Christmas pageant time.


Wanna know my guess? ;)

[greyl]

117. ABC indicated the possibility that Pagans complained.

http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=1263882

We simply don't know the details of who complained, yet.

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ksec]

111. They're bitchin about us stealing Christmas while they steal

halloween.

The Reichts stupidity has gotten beyond outrageous. Its become laughingstock material. They are now fodder for the late night shows. We need to make it a point to ridicule them at every opportunity, ridicule is the best weapon against extremists. When people laugh at them then they lose any semblance of legitimacy.

[walldude]

115. This is about as stupid as it gets.

This "holiday" is for kids. They don't care about any religious aspects of it, they don't care about Christians or Wiccans or their arguements about Halloween. All kids care about is costumes and candy. Let em' enjoy it..

[LittleClarkie]

122. The admittedly out of control Halloween bash at UW Madison

was labelled by a local DJ this morning as a bunch of liberal leftist college kids causing havoc.

I know Madison Wisconsin is pretty damn liberal, but who's to say that all the drunken college kids were all liberal. As if that were in our party platform, that we should be drunk and disorderly on Halloween. Why politicize it at all. Bugged the SHIT out of me.

[cynatnite]

123. This is so screwed up...

When I was a kid we had great halloween parties at school. With my kids, they quit that, but held parties after school with games and costume contests. Most parents went.

Now, there is none of that. Talk about taking the fun out of a great holiday. :(

[bobbieinok]

124. and complaints about Valentine's Day?????

and surely someone has some complaints about Thanksgiving

[BlueWolf]

125. I can't believe that was in MA

[JCMach1]

126. I am glad I send my kids to a private Islamic-centered

private school--

WHERE HALLOWEEN IS JUST ONE OF THE FUN THINGS THAT GOES ON!!!

Note the deep tone of irony...