Is anyone else watching Tom Brokaw's: In God They Trust?

[LostInAnomie]

Everytime I watch programs about Evangelicals I get chills up my spine. These people are so swept up by all the meaningless platitudes that they no longer think rationally.

They are a scary group of people.

[NJCher]

1. I had to turn it off

These people make me sick.




Cher

[targetpractice]

2. Very scary, indeed. n/t

[WritingIsMyReligion]

3. Was going to, until I saw the "preview" on Nightly News.

That scared the hell out of me.

:scared::scared:

[Sgent]

4. Very, very, very

concerning.

Knows nothing about politics, but liked GWB because he'll preach the gospel.

[Cobalt Violet]

9. And the pukes know there are are so many like her out there.

:scary:

[Martin Eden]

5. I'm watching it

Evangelical churches are 70 million strong, and growing. They cannot be ignored by anyone interested in winning national elections.

In another thread, in which the point was raised that so many Christians vote on the single issue of abortion, I wrote the following:

This issue is of overriding importance to THEM -- but not to ME.

Of all the cultural issues of the Christian Right, abortion is the one in which I am sympathetic to their views. I will always be steadfastly opposed to any bridge between the separation of church and state, such as teaching "intelligent design" in science classes. They have no right to impose their religion on other people's children.

But a good case can me made against abortion without bringing in the religious element. A fetus is alive, and will become a human being if not terminated. Abortion is a compex moral and philosphical issue, and giving life the benefit of the doubt -- and the benefit of legal protection -- would not be a calamity so terrible as that which now occupies the White House.

Though I personally subscribe to policies that would make abortion legal, safe, and rare, I fear that Democratic adherence to these policies will continue to exact a terrible price in the form of Republican control of government and policies destructive to our environment, our economy, our security, and our national well-being.

While I'm writing this, I'm watching Tom Brokaw's report on the evangelical movement in America that is 70 million strong and growing. These people vote, and if they continue to vote primarily on the single issue of abortion, the Democratic Party needs to reassess which issues are of primary importance.

[JNelson6563]

67. It's really not all that complicated

It's rather simple IMO: It's not the government's business.

The complications you cite are of concern to those considering abortion only. They are not complications for the government to address. Just as divorce is complicated business but not something for the government to decide whether it should be legal or not.

Julie

[Martin Eden]

68. Evangelicals would agree ...

... with your statement that "it's really not all that complicated." They say that a fetus is an unborn child, that killing it is murder, and that it IS the government's business to protect life and punish murder.

This certainly holds true for a child immediately aftr birth. Why should this child have NO legal protection before it is viable outside the womb? The fact that there is such profound disagreement about this and the questions that arise when examining the moral and philosophical aspects make it, in my opinion, a complicated issue to which easy answers are reached only by those firmly entrenched on one side or the other.

It is somewhat ironic that the left takes an essentially libertarian government-hands-off stance on THIS issue, while advocating a larger role for government in so many other spheres of public interest (and visa versa for the right's stance on this issue).

Don't get me wrong. I have always been pro-choice, but I've also always tried to understand other views. Most of all, I'm a realist, and we can't ignore the huge bloc of voters who will continue to elect Republicans on the issue of abortion even though Republican policies hurt their interests in so many other ways.

I also understand that the demands of the Christian right don't end with abortion. If they win that battle they will continue to push for religion in schools and trampling the rights of homosexuals. If the left caves on abortion, would that lead us inexorably to cave on other issues that are simply unacceptable? (and I understand that ending a woman's right to choose is simply unacceptable for many)

My essential point is that the Democratic Party's ability to win national elections will be marginalized as long as there is such a huge (and growing) number who will cast their vote primarily on the issue of abortion. If we can't find a way to win while remaining firmly pro-choice, we should at least reassess our atrategy on this issue.

[JNelson6563]

69. It remains simple, in spite of efforts to the contrary

to that nonsense from the Fundies trying to complicate the matter I would simply answer that each one of us answers for our own actions. We are not our brother's keeper.

Then I would direct their simple minds to other simple matters, like poverty, killing through illegal war, cruelty to other humans (like child abuse). I know of one instance where treatment of the unborn is talked of in the bible. There it is stated that if a man assualts a pregnant woman and she loses the baby but is ok herself, money is due the husband/father. If the woman dies then there is a killing.

If they want to complicate the issue, and if lefties want to enable it, fine, I'll break out the bible and beat their nonsense back with it.

Cheers,
Julie--an atheist who knows how to use the "wisdom" of the bible

[Martin Eden]

73. Breaking out the bible ...

... and beating their nonsense back with it could certainly win the debate in front of an impartial judge, but how many votes would it win?

We can certainly make the case that the impact of Republican policies on ALL life compares poorly with Democratic policies, and therein may lie our best strategy.

Short of becoming anti-choice ourselves, there may be ways to pry some of the evangelical vote out of the Republican grip. But hitting them over the head with their own bible and deriding them as simpletons would likely push them further to the right.

The Democratic Party, at the very least, needs to understand and reach out to these people where there is common ground (and there is a LOT of common ground). Alienating them unnecessarily is political folly.

You and I disagree about whether abortion is a simple issue on a moral and philosophical level, but I think you would agree it is a very complicated political issue that has a significant impact on the prospects of the Democratic Party and that changing the disastrous course our country is on may require winning more than 5% of the evangelical vote.

[JNelson6563]

74. We agree on much

but I disagree that we should let the fundies complicate the abortion issue politically. It's not up to the Government nor shoudl it ever be. This is the message we need to go with. Arguing any other point on the matter is foolish IMO.

Julie

[bluestateguy]

6. Me

It's good so far.

[Martin Eden]

75. Santos-McGarry

Every Democratic candidate should see the speech Santos gave in the classroom about intelligent design. I wish life would imitate art a little more!

[Cobalt Violet]

7. I am watching.

:puke: I really can't stand these freaks. :scared:

Help us all. They must be stopped.

[LogicalGreen]

17. Inaction

Right now Dems/Liberals should be organizing an equivalent movement that opposes evangelicals. However, no such action has been taken. Inactivity is the biggest opposition.

[LostInAnomie]

28. How can you organize against God?

Well at least the perception of God. These people are zealots who honestly believe that they are becoming politically active for their souls.

Their leaders convince them that if they do not go to the polls and vote en masse they are not doing their duty for God. They have become convinced that voting for someone who doesn't hold their EXTREMELY narrow views is a sin.

During the report they mentioned that the mega-church is not only a church anymore, it is a community. They congregate there and actively try to receive as little outside influence as possible. They only hear the rattle from the echo-chamber. The one woman even admitted to not reading the paper or watching the news. How do you fight against voluntary ignorance like that?

[CornField]

30. It takes a lot of work

After several years, members of my extended family broke from New Life. It took many other family members and lots of information in order to make the break.

1) The church hosts daycare & school (no need for the parents to ever encounter other viewpoints at the local PTA or Mommy Club)

2) Retraining of language. (When we get outraged or upset about the current state of affairs, i.e., the War in Iraq, we are "outside of Christ" and do not have "inner peace")

3) Money. I don't know about all New Life congregations, but my brother's family was going without food so that they could contribute to the church.

4) Entertainment. Movie theaters are the devil's playground -- as are skating rinks, McDonaldland playgrounds, public parks, etc. You just never know who you might meet in such situations. Better off to attend the entertainment hosted by the church.

5) Vacations. An idle hand is the devil's tool. Instead of running off with the family to the local amusement park, why not gather contributions and send yourself to Mexico and preach to the savages?

As you can see, virtually every aspect of a person's life is enveloped by the church, what the church says and what the church will see if you disobey.

In order to reach my family we planned get-away vacations -- all of us chipping in to pay his family's way. (We also made sure there was not a New Life church within driving distance.) We left books in his home, car and most everywhere else. We left magazine articles. We began to speak to him in the same language he had been taught at the "church" -- explaining that God would not want his family to go hungry just so the church could get a new sound system.

It was a very hard and long road, but it is possible. There were times when I was not speaking to him and his family at all. There were other times when I spent hours on the phone, listening to how I was going to burn in hell. Other times he was open to discussion. Still other times he would hang up on me or vice versa.

The bottom line is that if you love the person, you cannot give up trying to reach him or her.

[FreedomAngel82]

40. I agree

And we all love our country so we can't give up. We have to do that as well. I'm trying myself when I talk to other people on the other side of the political isle. You just have to use the Bible and show them how these people aren't true prophets of God.

[NuttyFluffers]

50. sounds like cultists...

so when do you think they'll "jonestown" themselves when they don't get their way?

[FreedomAngel82]

39. There is too a group!

It just began a little while ago: http://www.christianalliance.org It's a progressive Christian group.

[eallen]

8. Someone ought to make a Halloween movie, with evangelicals as the zombies.

[BooScout]

10. I felt like I was watching the rise of Hitler.......

I had to leave the room. They scare the hell out of me and play a large part in why I am moving to the UK in a couple of weeks. I don't like what is happening to my country and I don't see them going away or shutting the hell up with their prosletizing even after Bush is long gone. They are changing the face of this nation and I don't know how to stop them.

[Sgent]

11. Now they are talking about

the Air Force academy, and a concerted effort to take over the officer corp....

This shit is scary.

[BooScout]

12. Did you hear that one pastor?

That said they weren't so concerned with sin because Jesus died for their sin? I guess that's how people like hime justify killing 100,000 plus innocent Iraqis................it makes me ill.

[FreedomAngel82]

41. It is disgusting

You still aren't innocent just because you're a Christian and been saved and all that. I'll still be held accountable for my own actions and deeds. Another good scary movie with these people is called "The Army Of God." Now that's a scary movie.

[tabasco]

46. Yep, said it was "easy" to get rid of your sin.

Just look how easy it was for GWB. Drunken playboy for 40 years and "abracadabra!" - he's saved! - on equal footing with Mother Teresa.

It's basically a cult that programs their members to act, think, and vote the way they want.

These people are not interested in saving souls, they are interested in gaining power and money.

[KoKo]

13. Yes...I posted a DU alert it would be on tonight.

I'm disgusted....with it.

[Rowdyboy]

14. We're taping it.....

I can't wait!

[Catfight]

15. yup, it's a FREE FREAK show...I'm loving it. I told my dad I want him

to wave his arms and act like he's in a trance! LOL He laughed and he's a repug that thinks these whack-jobs are insane. This is great, and bush is aligned with them. I say, shed the light on the mystery of these freakazoids and show how they make a wonderful profit living in the shadows of peoples fears. I wonder if Tom will discuss the HIGH divorce rate among these so called followers of the word..."until death do us part." Say it with me...HYPOCRITES HYPOCRITES HYPOCRITS.

[FreedomAngel82]

42. I remember not long after the election

there was the stats that came out on divorce and the number one state with divorce was Texas (also the state that executes the most, Bush did 150 which is the highest)and the lowest was Massachusetts. Also, I think if more light is shed on these people moderate republicans will leave the group and be independent or maybe even democratic. My mother did that. She used to be a republican and voted for Bush in 2000 I believe but now she despises the family like me and thinks he's nothing but a hypocrite. My mom is now going to vote straight democratic in the upcoming midterms. My grandmother is a republican and voted Kerry and a Christian. My grandfather got to vote last year (he died back in July) and he was an Elder in his church for twenty-seven years and was in the navy and voted for John Kerry and thought Bush was a moron.

[Catfight]

16. Their fantatics...their hatemongers....and it IS SO TRUE...this is great.

These people seem miserable and sad. Their veneer smiles are masked in sadness.

[Stinky The Clown]

18. Cults. That's all they are .... cultists

[BooScout]

19. Anyone else think they are destroying this country?

I can handle true Republicans most of the time........ It's the Evangelical Nut Cases that have ruined this country in just a few short years.

[qanda]

20. When Tom Brokaw asked the black man about activist judges

And their role in the Civil Rights movement, he was as ignorant as anything I have ever seen. Those people used Christianity as an excuse to enslave and subdue our people and for him to not know that is just beyond me.

I am from an Evangelical family and background and it just scares me what it's turning into. I would have loved for Tom Brokaw to get into the fact that they are melding together church, government and corporate interests for a perfect storm against the interest of America.

I just shake my head in sadness.

[Christa]

22. I cannot watch it

It's frightening and makes me sick to my stomach. These people judge by the bible but don't know anything about brotherly love.

[CornField]

23. I was shaking my head right along with you

Perhaps Christianity had a role, but you can bet your last red cent it wasn't EVANGELICAL Christianity. I doubt MLK would recognize these folks as people of God.

[qanda]

27. Truly, black churches and ministers helped to lead the CR movement

But if it wasn't for activist judges, which Tom Brokaw was specifically addressing, then who knows where we would be. For that black man to equate Christians who now seek to take away rights in the same vein as Christians who sought to give rights is just downright wrong in my opinion. I know that you probably agree with me, but I just wanted to make my point a little more clear.

[FreedomAngel82]

43. Take away their tax deduction

If they want to be involved in politics as a church take away their tax deduction.

[CornField]

21. The part that really got to me

Was the blonde lady. "I don't read the papers and I don't watch the news," she said. She went on to add that she vote specifically on the grounds that Bush stated he was a Christian. She said she knew he would act to protect things like "in god we trust."

As a final note, why is New Life Christian Center (which already has me on some sort of religious black list) still operating as a non-profit religious organization? It seems to me that when you bring in political speakers, you're tax-exempt status should be going bye-bye.

[LogicalGreen]

26. Fanaticism

Any degree of religious fanaticism is a sign of a weak and impressionable mind. How is it being "Christian" by exploiting this sad but true fact? It's not about Christianity, it's about using fear to reign in the support of those who cannot reason for themselves.

[Catfight]

63. Welcome LogicalGreen, I totally agree. I went through the religious

"phase" in my late teens. I remember when it ended for me was the literal word that women were to remain home, pregnant, with no dreams of their own, dreams defined by white men behind a lectern. I just got sick of being oppressed in the name of anything. Now I'm pretty much agnostic. I've always contested that if I really had to spend eternity with people like this and a god like that, I really have no desire to do so. That's hell in heaven to me. I had a very weak and impressionable mind at that time in my life and it was foolish nonsense to get excited about nothing.

[FreedomAngel82]

44. So what? John Kerry's a Christian too

Duh. Didn't Kerry and Edwards speak in churches this last election? I don't find anything wrong with speaking inside a church. With me it's when they're doing action and giving funding as a church to a canidate. Plus, if these people really did read their Bible's they would know throughout the book of Proverbs King Solomon warns you to check people out all the time. You don't know how someone really is unless you check it out themselves.

[CornField]

47. They aren't only having candidates in to speak

In this particular show they were showing one of Reagan's footmen -- brought in to discuss economics and politics. They even had a member of the church saying he was really uncomfortable with that speaker.

I believe the time has come to draw a more legible line when it comes to churches being used as political pawns.

[bumblebee1]

56. Boy, was she misled

I seemed to agree with her husband about some of his misgivings. I knew what he meant when he would ask, "Is this the right forum for this topic?"

[GreenPartyVoter]

24. We need help fighting them.. come here and lend a brain cell or two

http://www.livejournal.com/community/thought_express/14905.html

[CornField]

25. Dear GPV

I do admire and love your tenacity. :) Thank you for all you are trying to do. If you need help from an Iowa Pagan, I'm your gal.

[GreenPartyVoter]

32. Thank you, Cornfield. :^) I hope you don't mind me referring to your

post in that thread the other night, but I got bashed in my blog for being a controlling Marxist, so I thought I ought to put my post in context. *l*

As for offering help, I really do think I need to start a letter writing campaign. If I get a page up for that I will let you know so you can send something off.

:hug:

[CornField]

33. Naw, I didn't even realize you had

I ventured over there earlier, but (I'm ashamed to admit) I couldn't figure it out. I guess I'm Livejournal challenged. LOL! I couldn't find any comments. Guess I'll need to make another appearance.

[GreenPartyVoter]

34. It's set up for anon users to leave notes. A sure-fire way to get

slammed by some cowards, but livejournal can look pretty unfriendly to some folks interface-wise, so I thought setting it up for an easy anon reply was the best way to encourage a larger # of people to participate. :)

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

29. Wow, I didn't see your thread and just posted a rant inspired by it.

That crap scares the hell out of me.

[Crunchy Frog]

31. I didn't watch it, and now I wish I had.

Does anyone know if it will be available for downoad anywhere?

I really do feel that this country has been taken over by a giant religious cult that is driving us into a sort of fascist theocracy. I'm just at a loss to know what to do about this social phenomenon. Even if we got a Democrat elected president, it wouldn't make this huge bloc in our society go away, and indeed, would only infuriate and inflame them.

Has this country always had such large numbers of fundies and they just weren't politically active before, or are many people being drawn into it who were not a part of it before?

Religious fundamentalism seems like a far more difficult thing for a society to throw off than other types of totalitarian ideologies.

Sounds like this show was a really scary watch, but a worthwhile one.

[knitter4democracy]

35. Hasn't that been done before?

I remember having to watch a Peter Jennings thing on evangelicals and mega churches back in college called "In the Name of God" or something like that. Freaked me out--and I was an evangelical at the time at an evangelical college.

[thinkingwoman]

36. I watched it and the main guy was creepy

I couldn't cope with the way he lifts his upper lip to show teeth and gums while squinting his eyes down to little slits. I thought I was looking at a reptile.

It really bothered me, and I'm not usually concerned with how people look.

[bumblebee1]

52. The only thing missing from the main guy's reptilian look was....

a forked tongue.

[thinkingwoman]

55. LOL! That's the truth. nt

[Catfight]

64. Because all of us that aren't seduced by his veneer smile know he's

full of crap. We all know if lynching were still something the good 'christians' of the KKK could do, he'd have his white robe hanging in his closet all in the name of jesus. ICK.

[thinkingwoman]

72. oh yeah, did you see

how he laughed about not dunking people (witches) anymore? Saying "we" haven't done that for "hundreds" of years?! :eyes:

Ugh.

[mestup]

37. My local affiliate pulled the show!

Substituted a "Billy Graham" special.

WTF?

[LostInAnomie]

48. You're kidding!

Are there a lot of evangelicals in your area?

[mestup]

51. There must be. I emailed the station but no response yet. Will call.

[FreedomAngel82]

38. It is scary

and I'm a Christian myself. I'm afraid that we'll get to the point like in Germany when people were turning each other in. :\ The last election I had a Kerry bumper sticker on my car and a pin on my purse so people in my church knew I voted for Kerry. Would they turn me in if it ever came to that? Would they allow it? They really are scary. If you haven't you should watch "With God on Our Side" and "God in the White House." As a Christian and a liberal the past year has definitely been hard for me, but I'm glad for places like DU where I know I'm not a lone and I have my mother, grandmother and brother. But it is scary to think about. I've even cried thinking about all the people in our country who would love to kill us.

[Az]

60. Try seeing what they are doing from an atheists point of view

This is why the nonChristians are so uppity about Christians. True its not all Christians. But those are the one's making a difference right now.

[Blue_In_AK]

45. I guess I'm going to hell...

Pastor Ted made my flesh crawl. What's up with the shit-eating grin and the squinty eyes? Shudder....

[catmother]

49. i watched it and didn't learn

anything new about them. they are brainwashed. look at their faces. they're worse than the moonies.

the really scary thing is that our president is one of them.

[depakid]

54. and that this very network enables these people to gain power

and it's been doing so for the last 25 years....

[bumblebee1]

53. Yes, I watched, too.

I got very concerned about the Air Force Academy cadet featured in Tom Brokaw's program. I've been wondering if he was one of the "Christian" cadets who were getting in the faces of the non Christian cadets and telling them if they weren't saved, They'd go to hell? The section about the Jewish family who has two sons attending the Air Force Academy was also quite interesting. their family name escapes me right now. I wonder what kind of officer will this cadet make when he's serving in the Air Force? There will be people of all different religious, racial, ethnic and economic backgrounds. My other question is: Is the New Life church turning itself into a mall? It sounded like it is.

[Catfight]

65. I wondered why all these 'christian crusader' boys of the church weren't

enrolling to fight the holy war of bushcoMobil.

[deadparrot]

57. I find them strangely addicting.

As awful as it sounds, I'm drawn to watch nutcases of any stripe, especially where it concerns religion. I always feel so dirty when watching those documentaries on polygamous or uber-religious types, because I know it's such an awful exploitation of women and girls, but I can't help it. I find them fascinating.

[Catfight]

66. Me too deadparrot. I think because it's fascinating how people allow

their thoughts, minds and dreams to be hijacked by someone else. It's fascinating, brainwashing and trance like states are very interesting to me as well. I think these people are so sad and empty that they 'search' for anything to uplift their dismal selfs.

[Aimah]

58. Oppressing Christians

We need to find these people who are oppressing Evangelists. Can't they just go with some kind of "Don't Ask Don't Tell". If you Don't Ask me if I believe in Jesus I Won't Tell you to get out of my face.

[hexola]

59. They pay no attention to issues; only vote against gays and for pro-life

candidates. Scary they don't think about anything but those two things.
Lemme outa here!

[Az]

61. God will cover everything else

They have been sold on the morallity issue. They find themself in a society that is increasingly leaving them behind. From their point of view it is corruption not progress. And they are terrified of it. They trust in god for the material things but feel they need to speak up for god in the moral aspects.

[Aimah]

62. I would buy that crap...

if their children didn't go buck wild once they got their first taste of freedom. Their morality should start and home and stay there. Most of the hyper religious families I know have the worst children. They spent so much time judging everyone else but didn't realize that their sons on track to rob a bank and their daughter is going to have 2 kids before her 17th birthday.

[Breeze54]

70. Scary!

Made me ill......alerted my sarcasm nerve into high gear!
:P
Who was that guy with the huge mouth and all the grinning?
They just seem really "glassy eyed" and 'freakish' to me!
CULT comes to mind.
Yuck!
Turned it off.

[yankeedem]

71. Life is hard

What these churches do is provide a way to make life easier. By providing a tight, insular, community, they don't have to process things from the outside world that they don't want to understand.

Unfortunately, this myopic worldview affects the rest of us.

[DanCa]

76. I don't mind the hallow plattitudes it when they expect me to beheld to

higher standard of living then they do. I take real exception with that.