Being fair about what Dean said on getting out of Iraq.

[madfloridian]

Being fair to Howard Dean about getting out of Iraq. Actually he has been speaking pretty clearly on this. Considering he can't make the plan or set the timeline...two of his last appearances on FTN and MTP showed a definite belief that we need to get out as soon as we can. Some don't seem to think so, just presenting what he has said.

Dean on Hardball - Oct. 6, 2005

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you about Iraq. One in six Democrats now tell pollsters that the war in Iraq was worth it. Are you one of those one in six, or one of the five in six — I should say, well, only one in six say it's worth it. Are you one of the one in six or one of the five in six who don't think it was worth it?

DEAN: Well, I think, Chris, one thing I am is consistent. I thought this was a bad idea in the first place because I believed we would get just in the kind of mess we have. It looks like, Chris, now the Iraqi government that George Bush is supporting to hard is trying to rig the vote on the constitution. Women appear to be worse off under this constitution than they were under Saddam Hussein. I think this president's made a terrible mistake. Now we're stuck, we're in there. It's not responsible to take our troops out tomorrow, but we need to get our troops out of there and we need to do it in a reasonable way and not lose any more lives.

MATTHEWS: Most Democrats, in fact all but a quarter, think that your party, you, don't have a policy, an alternative, to President Bush on Iraq. What is your clear-cut alternative to what he's doing now in Iraq?

DEAN: Well, our clear-cut alternative, of course, wouldn't have been to get in there in the first place. But I think our clear-cut alternative is we know we have to come home. The American people are sick of this, they think this was a mistake. The question is, what's the timetable to come home? There's a lot of reasonable alternatives. I personally don't think it's reasonable to pull out all the troops tomorrow. But I clearly think sooner is better than later.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9601984/

And on Face the Nation August 14 this year. It was pdf version, so just putting text.
Linking to html version.
PDF version:
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/face_81405.pdf
HTML version
http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:srqSgVI51BsJ:www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/face_81405.pdf+dean,+face+the+nation,+iraq&hl=en

SCHIEFFER: "Governor Dean, polls are showing that people are losing confidence in the president's handling of the war in Iraq. A minority--a majority now believe it's left us more vulnerable, rather than less vulnerable, to the terrorists. But what do Democrats propose to do about it?

Dr. HOWARD DEAN (Democrat, Former Governor, Vermont; Chairman, DemocraticNational Committee): Well, I think, first of all, we need a plan. The saddest article, in a series of very sad articles about people losing their lives--the saddest article I saw was in The Washington Post this morning, talking about the insiders of the administration saying, `Well, now we misjudged. We really can't achieve any of the things--or many of the things we said that we were going to achieve when we went.'

Eighteen hundred and fifty Americans lose their lives because the president can't figure out what he's going to do, had no plan when we got there and has no plan when we get out. First thing we need to do have a plan for leaving. And the second thing we need to do is to make sure that to the best of our ability we can influence the writing of the constitution. It looks like today, and this could change--as of today, it looks like women will be worse off in Iraq than they were when Saddam Hussein was president of Iraq. That's a pretty sad commentary on this administration's ability to do anything right.

SCHIEFFER: Well, when you say, `We need to have a plan,' you mean a plan to leave?

Dr. DEAN: We do.

SCHIEFFER: A plan to get out?

Dr. DEAN: We need to have a plan to leave.

SCHIEFFER: Should we leave now?

Dr. DEAN: I think that's going to be very problematic. I mean, I think we've gotten in there, we've made a huge mess in there, we've created a terrorist danger for the United States where one did not exist before. But to pull out before they even have a chance to write their constitution I think is wrong. But I do think that time is coming very quickly. And if it turns out that this constitution really does take away the rights that women have enjoyed in Iraq before, then I can't imagine why we're there."

Just trying to be fair. He can not make the plan, congressional Democrats need to. Won't do any good, except to make us as Democrats happy.

Actually I agree with what Dean said. He said the president is commander chief....HE needs to make the plan.

[blm]

1. I think he answered as well as he could. It's impossible to give a plan

that entails having THIS commander-in-chief in charge of implementing that plan.

NOTHING can work because BushInc doesn't really want it to. A prolonged Holy War means MEGA bucks for his defense industry cronies.

Dean is doing what he needs to do...keep that ball IN Bush's court because NO PLAN from the Dems has any chance to be implemented so why play that game that the media is playing.

Both Kerry and Clark have submitted great, DOABLE plans that are quite similar, yet noone in the media gives either of their plans any airtime or discussion. Instead they keep at the "Dems have no plans" meme, and try to play trip up whatever Dem is being interviewed.

[madfloridian]

7. They are ignoring Kerry's plan.

I think the radio address today was our Democratic congressional leaders talking to the grassroots....we stay and win.

They are going to stay.

[Donna Zen]

16. "...some semblance of success."

That is a far cry from "stay and win."

I have a question: do you advocate that Dr. Dean or any other Democrat propose that we say: "I think we should lose"?

I just don't think that is a very smart postition to take. I also think that it gives the bush's a real advantage in the frame game. Well, I'm a confessed Clark supporter, true, but I still think that pressuring bush on his obvious weaknesses: incompetence and a failure of diplomacy is a good idea. Putting bush on the defensive and offering up a long-past-due action, talking to the neighbors and settling the country down, is our best chance of getting out asap.

Much of the struggle within the country can, and must be, settled from the power struggle beyond Iraq's borders.

Get out asap.

Pressure bush's weaknesses.

Call for action that will make leaving possible.

Don't open the Dems to criticism for bush's failures.

[madfloridian]

17. I remember Vietnam....this sounds so much like that.

I am not sure what you think I am saying. I have been torn in my feelings, but it looks like pure hell there....and I don't think we can fix anything there anymore.

I am angry with all our Democrats, but glad to see some coming around. I do believe that the leaders in congress, the ones who voted for it....still support it. That makes me angry.

I do believe as I said, that the message coming from them perhaps via the radio address is that we are staying no matter the cost.

This term:
"There is no alternative to success in Iraq." sounds very much like it could have been said about Vietnam. We lost 54,000 there. We have a long way to go.

I am no more critical of one man than any other. I am being a realist. We can not win there. It is chaos. Saying otherwise is wrong.

[Donna Zen]

18. My question is pretty simple

I understand who voted for this mess, and who stood against it. I also understand that this is bush's war. As we call bush incompetent, because he is, do we come out and say: gee, I think we should accept failure and bring the troops home. In the end, there will be no success because there never was anything successful about lying a country into an illegal invasion and killing people. I'm looking at Dean's, and other honest Dems, framing their message to receive the most benefit for Americans and Iraqis and incur the least ridicule from the republicans. If people won't listen to you, then the message goes no where.

All of the honest Dems. who opposed the war, still oppose the war and want the troops home asap. Why give your enemy ammunition that they can kill you with? Saying that we hope for success, want the troops home, and criticizing bush is about it for now. There are no Dems that will be chosen by bush to take the reigns of this debacle. At the same time, in true regime fashion, they are trying to push the blame on Democrats.

[1932]

20. In what form do you imagine "success" coming?

[1932]

19. There is no winning by staying.

Even if we "win" we lose. If we show the world that we can ignore popular opinion and invade a country illegally and then turn it into a money printing operation for US corporations, then we are REALLY going to freak out the rest of the world. They'll start trying a lot harder to knock us down, and then we'll REALLY have to turn the world into a maximum security prison to remove all the threats.

But we're not going to win. Empire is too complicated, too expensive, and too contrary to democracy and justice. It simply can't succeed.

Some people can make a lot of money for a while (like Halliburton, GE, Bechtel, et al) but it comes at a price that will have to be paid eventually.

There is no winning in Iraq.

[mzmolly]

2. Thanks. I missed the hubub over Dean's remarks.

Recommended.

[madfloridian]

9. Hi, mzmolly.

It has been off and on. I just think he is doing the best he can in his position.

[mzmolly]

15. Hi MF!

Dean's doing a great job too.

:hi:

[MrModerate]

3. Dean could -- and should . . .

Articulate a specific withdrawal schedule.

With milestones and hold points, and a plan for what we do when Iraq a) collapses into civil war, or b) cozies up to Iran, or c) peacefully trifurcates, or d) whatever.

And a plan for repairing our alliances, and how we'll handle the Iran mess and etc., etc., etc.

In fact the whole party should get its act together and articulate a series of plans, and do it before the light finally-fucking-dawns in the White House and they come out with their own (no doubt disastrous).

As in "to govern," the lack of confidence in Democrats' ability to do same having cost us at least the last two elections.

Right now the WH and the wingnutariat are running around like decapitated chickens. NOW is the time to demonstrate leadership abiity. Doesn't matter if we can't implement yet -- let the electorate know that they need someone who will.

[Up2Late]

4. Exactly. "...the *cough* president *cough* is commander chief...

...HE needs to make the plan...!"

What's the issue?!?

WHY Can't this guy (*)Lead!?! WHY Can't this guy take responsibility for ANYTHING!!!???!!! :banghead: :mad:

[AntiCoup2K4]

8. You answered your own question

LEADING means taking responsibility. And George Walker Chimp Jr has never had to take responsibility for anything in his life.

Got crappy grades? So what? Grandpa's a Senator, Dad's a congressman,and both were Skull & Bones, so he gets into Yale.

Should he go to 'Nam? Nope, not when daddy's got friends in the Natl. Guard.

Desertion from the Guard? But Daddy needed me to run his friend's campaign!

And then you have his so-called adult life. Where every job he ever had (including the current one) was bought for him by his daddy and/or daddy's friends. Including the Bin Laden's in the first one, Arbusto Energy. And as each one failed, Junior simply walked away with money in his pocket and coke up his nose, leaving others to pay the price.

He doesn't take responsibility because he doesn't have the first clue HOW. In 60 fucking years on this planet, nobody has ever held him accountable for anything.

[jamesinca]

5. Wes Clark needs to talk with Dean and Dem Senators

I think with his background he would be a good resource to consult with. I think they need to crack open the history books and look at the exit strategy for Vietnam and remind themselves how that played out. Take the best parts of the Vietnam exit strategy, take some ideas from Gen. Clark and come up with something by the beginning of the year. We have 30 years of hind-sight with Vietnam, hopefully the picture there is clear and lessons were learned and we can build on what was learned from that.

Most importantly we need to say something, if we can't come up with a plan that makes us look weak also. If we look weak, and they look weak, why would voters change horses in midstream. We need to say, here is our plan. We need to say and remind people that this administration is talking a 15 -20 year occupation in Iraq. We need to remind people that they don't have a plan. We need to remind people that 15-20 years is 4-5 administrations down the road. We need to put something together for the '06 races and let the repugs hang on to George and his 20 occupation.

[madfloridian]

6. In the radio address today, the official Dem address,

Clark said we needed to win Iraq. The one who speaks is often chosen by the DSCC or DCCC usually, or the leaders thereof.

This may be the official Democratic strategy...stay and win. Sounds like he was chosen to make this statement to us.

QUOTE:"We have a long way to go before victory, or at least some measure of success, is assured.

"And that is why we must say to our sons and daughters who put themselves in harms way for our own safety and for the freedom of others: You have our gratitude. You have our respect. You have our unqualified support. We love you and we will not forget your sacrifice and that of your families when you come home. We are determined to ensure that this Administration provides you a plan for success befitting of your sacrifices and service.

"There is no alternative to success in Iraq. This administration has an obligation to provide our men and women in uniform and the American people that strategy."

[1932]

21. You should read Clark's books.

One theme that repeats throughout both books is that he feels that Vietnam could have been won and that we lost it because Americans became too critical and the political leaders lost their resolve.

(This conflict between military objectives and politics, incidentally, is what the movie Dr Strangelove is about.)

I think a lot of what Clark does as a politician is that he's trying to make an argument for maintaining resolve so that we don't repeat Vietnam. He doesnt' want to pull out of Iraq. He wants Iraq to look like Saudi Arabia and not like Vietnam.

Incidentally, we will be chaning horses in 2008. Term limits, remember.

[Crunchy Frog]

23. He has been doing so, a great deal.

He has regularly met with Reid and Pelosi. He recently met with the Congressional Black Caucus at which time he also met with Cindy Sheehan. He has been all over the place trying to help build some sort of unified, coherent Democratic message together on the issue of Iraq.

I'm very glad that the party is finally taking what he has to offer more seriously.

[madfloridian]

24. I think that has been the party message all along.

To stay. I don't think that any who voted for this war intended it to end in failure. Yet, it has. They don't want to admit that it has.

I think more and more of us are seeing the trend in the party toward putting national security first. Unfortunately, they are not taking the emphasis off the military's role in it. None of them will admit we are less safe now. Our own party is playing to the fears about terrorism, just as Bush as done.

I think Clark was chosen to give the message today to the grassroots that we are going to stay in Iraq. I think that is what most of our leaders in congress want. 9/11 was a domestic defense issue, not a military one.

These words he said today are exactly pointing out what Howard Dean said when he tried to explain it to Cindy Sheehan. He was saying he could not figure out how to get it in the agenda...because the DC people don't want it in there. The Democratic party leaders in congress and the DLC and Third Way and PPI do NOT want to leave Iraq. It is part of the progressive internationalism that is the PPI's goal.

Clark said we should tell our soldiers who put their lives in harm's way that we appreciate them, but they can't come home until some ethereal level of success is met.

I remember the Vietnam years well, and this is sounding just like that. Just exactly.

Clark said:
"QUOTE:"We have a long way to go before victory, or at least some measure of success, is assured.

"And that is why we must say to our sons and daughters who put themselves in harms way for our own safety and for the freedom of others: You have our gratitude. You have our respect. You have our unqualified support. We love you and we will not forget your sacrifice and that of your families when you come home. We are determined to ensure that this Administration provides you a plan for success befitting of your sacrifices and service.

"There is no alternative to success in Iraq. This administration has an obligation to provide our men and women in uniform and the American people that strategy."

I have had mixed feelings about this, but they are clarifying. I think Clark today delivered the message to us. We are staying.

[madfloridian]

10. Dean tonight said support the troops by bringing them home.

From the FDA blog tonight. Dean must have flown straight to San Jose from Minnesota. He speaks in Hayward tomorrow. I am sure this person won't mind if I post this. Since I have been showing that he is changing on this issue, this brings out my point.

Denise wrote on October 16, 2005 12:36 AM:

"Tonight, among his usual talking points, Howard mentioned something that is worth repeating.

He said that when he comes to California, especially in this area, that he sees what the rest of the nation will look like by 2050. The diversity that permeates this area will be the face of all of America. Pretty hard to imagine, but worth thinking about.

Oh and when he spoke about moral values, he said that includes "supporting the troops by bringing them home" - with no usual caveat of "we can't just cut and run" this time. And that line brought the most applause of the night."

[shance]

11. Thanks Floridian for posting this.

n/t

[madfloridian]

13. You're welcome, and of course I meant the DFA blog...not FDA.

That will teach me to post so late at night.

[loyalsister]

12. If we want out

We need to recognize their culture as legitimate.
Step 1 is stop trying to have it both ways from here. We need to stop saying that we want to bring our troops home and having an opinion on women's rights in their constitution, etc.
They need and deserve some respect for their historical roots. I wouldn't want to be a part of it. I am grateful that I am not.
But after all that they have been through, they deserve some respect for their beliefs and customs, their history, and how they have tried to govern. This is how people create group the order that leads to rule of law. Their sense of tribal identity is important to them. You can't just dismantle them and impose American mores.

[madfloridian]

14. Spreading Democracy will not work.

You are right about that. We have no right to do that.

[welshTerrier2]

22. the rights of women? - Article 2, Section 1

just for the record, things are not looking all too good for women under the new Constitution ...

Article 2:

First: Islam is the official religion of the State and it is a fundamental source of legislation:

A. No law that contradicts the established provisions of Islam may be established.