left/right is not bs. it's the defining issue facing the party.

[ulysses]

Ok, that's an oversimplification. Left/right is always an oversimplification.

Still, we have a genuine problem in the Democratic party, and about what we actually stand for. There are several axes to the issue - corporatism/populism, war/peace, social issues, etc.

We can't ignore it. We can't put it off until "after we've won", because 1) we won't win while we're putting it off and 2) even if we could, all our time would be taken up with trying to not lose again.

These are genuine issues. We have to face them and resolve them. Soon.

[OneBlueSky]

1. I respectfully yet vociferously disagree . . .

the whole left/right dichotomy is a contrivance by the corporate oligarchy to keep Americans at each others' throats over comparatively marginal issues . . . left/right is the horizontal axis, and that's where they have us playing the game . . .

by focusing on left/right, we neglect the place where the REAL issues reside: the vertical axis, the up/down . . . the REAL issues are the ones that actually determine the nature of our democracy: poverty, the economy, unconscionable deficits, corruption in government, the environment, energy, health care, war and peace, etc. . .

the REAL issues involve "us versus them," i.e. the people against the VERY small ruling minority . . . and in every case, what the Ups want is completely contrary to the best interests of the American people, the United States as a nation, and the planet Earth . . .

as long as they can keep us tied to the horizontal axis, left and right duking it out, we won't be stepping on what they see as their prerogatives . . . and just to reinforce things, they throw out terms like "class warfare" to convince us that actually looking at the real, up/down issues is somehow communist or something . . . but that's EXACTLY what we need to do if we are EVER to make any progress and actually start making changes and solving problems . . .

EVERY American -- right, left, center, apolitical -- is on the SAME SIDE in the up/down battle! . . . (excepting, of course, those very few at the top) . . .

and what scares the shit out of the Ups is that the Downs will someday realize this and act in concert to change the system to work for us . . . instead of allowing them to steal us blind while we're wasting our time in life-or-death battles over gay marriage, abortion, prayer in schools, and pornography . . .

[DemBones DemBones]

2. I agree wholeheartedly with you.

We are fools to allow them to use the hot button issues against us. We should take the hot button issues out of our platform and out of our campaign speeches.

Abortion, same-sex marriage, pornography, prayer in schools, Ten Commandments in schools, etc., allow the right to keep their base riled up AND snare a lot of voters who would otherwise vote Democratic -- and the great irony is that these issues will all continue to be settled by the courts.

Furthermore, the courts are almost certain to continue ruling in ways that should please the left (keeping abortion legal, allowing same-sex marriage, keeping religion out of public schools, etc.)

The left SHOULD focus its energy on educating people about the REAL issues, as you have explained.

[dsc]

9. Can I have some of what you are smoking?

You seriously think that the current federal court system is going to rule to allow same sex marriage? I hope you are right but I honestly don't think I will live to see such a decision from federal courts. I am 37 BTW

[zanne]

10. I think you're right, dsc

Republicans have been on a crusade to make the courts more conservative by appointing zealots as judges.

[DemBones DemBones]

12. I haven't been smoking anything, but I do

have 20+ years on you and that's an extra 20+ years of watching what's happening and learning from it.

Besides, my point was not that the courts will legalize same sex marriage as you suggest I said, but that the courts are the ultimate decision makers, whichever way they go.

Will the federal courts legalize same sex marriage? Probably. Will it happen as soon as you want it to? Probably not. Few of us will see all the change we want in our lifetimes.

Here's the thing: Democrats saying they'll legalize same sex marriage or keep abortion legal is bullshit because they can't do either. Neither can the Republicans stop same sex marriage from being legalized or criminalize abortion. It's all talk, on both sides.

These issues WILL be decided in the courts, and if you look at the trends over the past fifty years, you can see that the court decisions have not favored the rightwing point of view on issues related to privacy or the First Amendment.

The issues where the left has been hit and hit hard are the economic ones. And that means the American people have been hit and hit hard on economic issues. The economic issues are not ultimately decided by the courts. Congress can change tax structures, redirect appropriations, etc., at their disgression. Presidents can lead Congress either for or against the people's economic interests.

THAT'S where the Democrats need to focus, on telling people how they're being ripped off by the GOP and how the Dems can and will change that.

As they said in the Clinton campaign, "It's the economy, stupid!"

[dsc]

19. I think the courts have hardly be uniformly progressive on social issues

The Bowers case was in 86, and Romer was distinguished in the late 90's. Lawerence was a pleasant surprise, but it was a surprise. Abortion has fared better but even that is in for some adjustment. I think partial birth and parental notification are both going to be upheld.

[sadiesworld]

17. Are you truly confident

that the federal court nominees are anything more than pawns? I think the federal courts, most obviously at the SCOTUS level, are little more than blank slates to be writ upon as the elite see fit. Gay marriage? I think they will rule in a way that is most conducive to maintaining the status quo, i.e., whatever best serves to keep the elites fat and happy and the peons at each others' throats.

[sadiesworld]

15. This MUST be shouted from the rooftops.

The issues we all can agree upon are never addressed while the issues we are (somewhat) at odds over are exploited beyond reason.

Dark players abound, take NOTHING at face value and keep a solid foot in your real--not online--community.

[AntiCoup2K4]

3. As I said in another thread.....

The DLC would have us give up the 50% of eligible voters who stay home (rather than vote for two corporatist parties) in order to go for the 10% in the mushy middle who don't even have the presence of mind to realize THE BUSH CRIMINAL EMPIRE IS DESTROYING THIS FUCKING COUNTRY.

If we put a REAL Democratic platform out there we would not only get a huge chunk of the 50, but probably most of the 10 as well.

The perception out there is "Democrats don't stand for anything", and unfortunately, the voting records of the DLC in both houses of congress prove that to be true, in most cases.

It's not even really left vs right or left vs center as much as it is the American people vs corporatism.

[DemBones DemBones]

4. That's what One Blue Sky said above, and

what I agreed with above. Forget about campaigning on abortion, same-sex marriage, gun control, all the hot button wedge issues, which will ultimately decided by courts, not through the electoral process, and FOCUS on how THEY are screwing US over. Our differences on the wedge issues are keeping us from uniting to throw the corporatists out of office.

People used to vote Democratic if they wanted to live like Republicans, as Harry Truman said it, but the GOP has bamboozled half the electorate by pushing the wedge issues to the front.

The result is that people are voting against their economic interests, and against what's fair and morally right, economically speaking, to be sure they elect some Bozo who's promised to put prayer back in the public schools and ban abortion -- promises he cannot keep and has no intention of trying to keep.

Most people in this country are probably unaware of what has been done to their rights to earn overtime pay, to file bankruptcy after a catastrophe, such as a medical or natural disaster, wipes them out financially.

Most don't realize that the government now has the power to enter your home without a warrant; that they can search your possessions and never even inform you that they did so; that they can access your library records and your records of bookstore purchases (unless you always pay cash and don't participate in any discount or incentive programs the store offers -- and keeps records of.)

Most don't realize that the GOP has eliminated the estate tax in order to help the rich get richer, not to "help family farms." Most have no idea how much money you have to have in your estate for your heirs to be taxed on it -- they think "big government" wants to tax their paltry $50 K savings when they die. They think the GOP is protecting them when all they're doing is helping themselves and their cronies get richer.

Give the Democratic Party the message that we want them to focus on the important economic issues and national security issues and get all the wedge issues out of the party platform. Tell the candidates to leave those issues to the courts and FOCUS on how rich individuals and corporations are getting obscenely rich while the rest of us get comparatively poorer every year.

[Neil Lisst]

5. we gotta reach towards the middle to win

I agree that the party must define itself, and do so in the most positive manner possible.

Elections are about winning or losing, and if you're losing, you have to find a way to get more of the middle. The issue is therefore how to nominate candidates who are liberal enough for the base, but conservative enough to get elected.

The truth is, we must find a way to get more white voters, more male voters, more gun owners, more Christians to vote Democratic.

-----
my progressive political cartoon
http://www.webcomicsnation.com/neillisst

[kentuck]

6. A large proportion of American doesn't know if they are left or right

They go with their instincts and their passions. And they vote a lot on emotional issues. They don't know what left or right is and go with the message of the person. We have lost our message. Our leaders have become too cautious to stand up for anything, for fear of being called a leftist or a Communist. That fear has them paralyzed. Until they can shake off that fear and speak to the people on a more basic level, we will remain paralyzed by this division.

[DemBones DemBones]

7. I'll say it again; Dems need to wise up.

Forget about campaigning on abortion, same-sex marriage, gun control, all the hot button wedge issues, which will ultimately decided by courts, not through the electoral process, and FOCUS on how THEY are screwing US over. Our differences on the wedge issues are keeping us from uniting to throw the corporatists out of office.

People used to vote Democratic if they wanted to live like Republicans, as Harry Truman said it, but the GOP has bamboozled half the electorate by pushing the wedge issues to the front.

It's not about moving to the middle. It's about showing people whose beliefs range from left to right that their needs are best served by the Democrats. It's about getting them to think about issues other than their emotional issues.

[kentuck]

8. Agree...

Why is it so diffcult to communicate?

[DemBones DemBones]

13. Because we're all suckers for the emotional issues.

There's a thread in LBN now with 708 posts. Seven hundred and eight posts! It must be about something really important, right?

If only that were the case. . .

[welshTerrier2]

14. a few points ...

just for the record, it's at 508 ... you'll be happy to know i didn't waste my time reading the thread ...

second, and more importantly, we do have to be careful about how we address the "emotional issues" ... i think it's necessary for us to view these issues in the right context ... i think what OneBlueSky wrote above was great ...

but we shouldn't minimize the importance of the cultural issues ... we need to frame them in the proper context ... OBS stated we have to be careful about "comparatively marginal issues" ... it's difficult to see issues like gay rights or women's rights and other issues about human freedoms as "comparatively marginal" ...

i agree with the central themes being expressed here that we have to pick and choose our battles and understand that ultimately we are in a class war and a battle for our democracy and the power that controls it ... and i have no disagreement that absent that struggle, all other struggles cannot ever succeed ... but still, we should be careful in being too quickly dismissive of cultural considerations ... they really are issues of social justice and that's not trivial ...

as for DU'ers being distracted with nonsense, who could disagree ?? we are so obsessed with one opiate of the people or another that we often lose sight of the essential battle we're engaged in ...

i wrote this earlier in another thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2144970

what troubles me about DU is that they are not likely to even read a thread like this ... i hope they prove me wrong but i doubt they will ... how are we ever going to heal the rift in the Party if there is no "cross-pollination" on threads of this nature ???

i really don't know how to promote this kind of issues-focussed dialog ... if i had chosen a title like (just an example): "Kerry the Corporatist Sells out Americans on foreign policy" (the actual title was: "Corporatism, imperialism and the Democrats ..."), this thread would get a hundred responses ... with hot, flashy subject lines, everyone wants to participate ... the problem is, with inflammatory subjects like that, the issue gets buried and only the candidate, the flaming and the poster personalities are discussed ...

oh well, i'll keep trying ... not sure what else to do ...

[Telly Savalas]

16. What Dems were campaigning on the wedge issues?

If issues like abortion, legal recognition of same-sex marriage, etc. came up, prominent candidates would tell you what they think, but they didn't go out of their way to promote their ideas on these issues. The key issues in '04 for the Dems were jobs, healthcare, security, and doing better in Iraq.

[Telly Savalas]

18. Excellent post.

[bluedawg12]

11. Left means liberal which to me means

( I posted this on another thread- but I think it works for me at the moment and fits in with the working/middle class world I live in and the folks I know. the issues are not black or white- and the priority is over national security and jobs and from there spring other concerns like the environment and the last thing we or any one should do is force sexual behavior to the forefront- besides gay rights are not about gay sex, it is about fairness, fairness to all Americans. the radicalright wing has shoved the nose of America into the bedrooms of our people -we need to support fairnes in work, housing and benefits for all Americans and tell the right to shut the fvcck up about sex and go back to their closeted toilet reading of their private porn collection.)

I won't take crap from anyone in real life.

I stick up for my beliefs.

I love my country and the best of the ideals it stands for- and for what it can yet become.

I support a strong military, and support our troops, and believe in a strong and swift and sure repsonse to any act of hostility to my home land.

I believe in the right to bear arms.

I am conflicted and saddened by abortion, and understand the right to chose but can't quite get my head around the fetus issue- that's my deep personal belief. Because I do believe that life, all life, critters as well as people are a spark of the divine.

I love nature and hate to see it gobbled up by greedy developers and polluted and spoiled for generations to come. This is a beautiful land and the clear cutting of forests in the west and pacific NW is an awful sight.

I like out door stuff, don't hunt critters, but target shoot.

I want everone in this country to be well off, have decent paying jobs, health care, and pensions.

it goes on, so if I am a librul- cool. I'm proud.

I can't be a conservative because I can't support coprorate welfare and off shore tax havens and tax cuts, and I can't tear down others to make myself seem righteous. nor do I care whom you love and if you do or don't have sex with them and if you do or don't see God when you come.

I hope that makes me a librul.