Are Dems/Libs in FAVOR of illegal immigration?

[underpants]

I ask this question in all seriousness.

For as long as I can remember the right has been screaming and yelling about illegal immigration. This not only implies all immigration (our people got here first*) but it supposedly makes it their fight.

It fits right into their self appointed position as leader of national security as well as the image of tough on crime.

Are (HAVE) Dems and/or liberals been saying that there should be ILLEGAL immigration?

Have they completely framed this issue on their terms?

I know that I think that there should be the enforcement of existing laws (as is possible) but I also know that we are in the business of tearing DOWN walls not building them (at least that is what I remember hearing) and I know I don't want the US military on the Mexican border.

* not really
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/11/1122_041122_spanish_fort.html

[AllegroRondo]

1. Not for illegal immigration,

but for the humane treatment of illegal immigrants. they are still people.

[Lerkfish]

3. That is the crux of the issue, you beat me to it.

progressives object to the dehumanized portrayal of "illegals" which leads to their abuse and exploitation. They are considered by the right to be unworthy of citizenship, but worth paying next to nothing to have them to clean toilets.

If there are immigration laws, they should be enforced humanely and consistently. Not just enforced against people of color or ethnicity while allowing white european immigrants easy ingress.

There is a not so veiled racist loch ness monster below the surface of the lake of right wing objection to illegal aliens. And they are the same people who will hire them as gardners or housekeeping staff.

:shrug: the world does not make sense, always.

[underpants]

7. a not so veiled racist loch ness monster ...

I'll have to remember that. Very well put

[Lerkfish]

14. thanks. it just occurred to me while typing.

[Ken Burch]

60. As a person of Scottish descent, I'll not have Nessie insulted like that!

She's ne'er been racist. She'd gladly eat the lot o' ye!

[Ken Burch]

58. A fair and humane immigration policy would also be nice.

If the immigration policies now in place had been in place from the mid 19th Century through 1920, most of the waves of Irish, Italian and Eastern European Jewish immigrants would have been "illegals". This is particularly important when you consider that many of the descendants of those groups are among our most passionate opponents of immigration from Latin America today.

And we should also support movements in those countries that seek to create a decent living standard and political freedom for the peoples of Latin America, so that they wouldn't feel compelled to leave their countries for a better(or simply a more survivable)life here.

At present, the U.S. message on that is "we're going to keep you out of our country and we're going to keep your oppressors in power in your country".

This has to change for U.S. policy on immigration to have any basis in morality or decency.

[Stevepol]

2. I believe the bracero program worked pretty well in the 60s.

I heard a Dem talk about this recently but don't remember who it was. He said there was very little illegal immigration during the bracero program, which allowed for the legal immigration of MX workers under certain guidelines and limitations.

It's a difficult problem admittedly, but it was less of a problem during Dem administrations when there was more reason applied to it and less venom.

[Der Blaue Engel]

4. Against the demonization of illegal immigrants

The RW uses illegal immigration issues to stir up xenophobia and make illegals (and by extension all immigrants) the scapegoats for society's ills.

(And then they hire them under the table and act shocked when they're caught with illegal nannies that they're paying dirt.)

[underpants]

6. Yes that is clearly the reason for this

xenophobia

[blondeatlast]

26. That's the situation in a neat little nutshell.

They serve the RW agenda both ways--on the job and as convenient scapegoats when the evil Godless homo-lovin' liberals won't quite do.

[MadisonProgressive]

5. I'm against illegal immigration

but for illegal importation!

[Beacho]

8. The real question should be

Is the Money/Corporate faction against illegal migrant workers? They love using the issue to whip up the 'hoi polloi' nativists, but the dirty little secret is that the economy RELIES on illegal workers to function.

[underpants]

11. 'hoi polloi' nativists

Man there is some good writing (NOT mine) going on in this thread.

Thanks also. That is the big point here.

[leveymg]

9. "Illegal Immigrant" is a pejorative term that blames the victim

The only reason that people in these times have to climb fences or overstay visas is that Congress refuses to take a realistic approach to regulating immigration, and some on the Extreme Right Wing are trying to altogether criminalize it and even want the military to enforce it.

PhDs from China and India who desire to come to the US to work now face a wait of five years before they can even apply for residence status. All non-immigrant work visas (H-1Bs) have been used up, and new ones won't be available until October 2006. The number of employment-based visas available is utterly inadequate to meet the demand.

This situation is absurd, and contrary to the American tradition as a global nation that regularly refreshes itself with the talents of newcomers from around the world.

The existing immigration laws don't work, and don't serve the national interest. They need to be rewritten and the Right-wing zealots who make them must be replaced.

[underpants]

10. Excellent

thank you

[dolstein]

13. "Criminal is a perjorative term that blames the law-breaker"

That's in essence what you are saying. These people are breaking the law. Period. Stop making exuses for them. There are plenty of people who grow up in poverty in Mexico who DON'T sneak into this country. You act as if these people have no control over their own actions, which strikes me as downright paternalistic.

If you don't like the laws --- CHANGE them. But as long as they remain on the books, we would demand that they be enforced and that the people who violate them, which includes not only the illegal immigrants themselves but also anyone who assists them or employes them, be punished.

[Lerkfish]

16. what is the purpose of immigration law?

I assume to control the population size, that's what it comes down to.

there are facets of that, like keeping out "undesirables", allocating for their impact on community services (like schools, hospitals, etc.)

but ultimately all those facets come down to the desire to limit who stays in and who stays out. The limit itself is arbitrary. It sets a line in the sand, just so many, and no more.
The setters of the limit are the ones who determine what becomes "illegal".

If you in a line to pay for groceries, and the cashier totals up the person in front of you, then closes down their register, is it your crime to be in that line, and be one person too late? Should you be punished for the limitations set by the cashier?
Many people have already gone through that cashier's line and been served in the past. Many illegals have waited it out and gotten their green cards and eventually become citizens.

I think to "criminalize' immigrants is pointless. If they don't fit into the arbitrary number, then just refuse them entry.

"Give me your tired, your poor. Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free"

should we remove this from the statue of liberty? Have we forgotten that unless we are Native American, we are ALL immigrants here>?

[dolstein]

23. If you don't like the law, CHANGE it, but until then, ENFORCE it

What exactly is it about breaking the law that you don't understand? Millions of people are in this country illegally. They may be perfectly fine people, but it doesn't matter -- they broke the law. Period. I'm sure there are millions of other people who would like to live in the United States, but they aren't willing to break the law to do it. There are the people I have sypmathy for.

[Lerkfish]

25. What is it about my post that YOU do not understand?

reread it and reply if you have come to a new understanding.

did you miss this part?:

--I think to "criminalize' immigrants is pointless. If they don't fit into the arbitrary number, then just refuse them entry.---

that would be enforcing it, right? refusing entry? If the goal is to limit the number, then limit the number, enforce the law. No need to criminalize it. If you have an auditorium and it is full, you should simply turn people away that are too many. Instead, people assign negative descriptions to them such as "I have no sympathy for them" or worse.

My point, which you apparently missed entirely, is that people are attaching a great deal of undue negative emotion to what is essentially a quota. If a quota is reached, merely enforce the law and deny entry to those that are above the quota.

Its a mathmatical law, why make it a class or racial distinction? Why should people get upset enough to launch vitriol and even violence against illegals? Merely deport them or do not allow entry.

My objection is to the dehumanization and demonization of persons whose only "crime" is the desire to live on one side of an arbitray line as opposed to another side.

[Telly Savalas]

39. Damn straight. Put all the fuckin' pot smokers behind bars.

[Telly Savalas]

40. Oh yeah. Lots of states still have sodomy laws.

Have fun suggesting that we should enforce those too.

[The Magistrate]

42. The Immigrants, Mr. Dolstein

Are not alone in breaking the law. Those who hire them are also criminals. The law needs to be enforced in that regard, and indeed, if it was, if employers of illegal immagrants were hauled off in cuffs and put in jails for a year or two routinely, the problem would be largely ended in short order.

[formernaderite]

50. You know you aren't allowed to check whether their papers

are in order, or whether the soc # is valid until AFTER you hire. You're also not allowed to fire them even if the number comes back invalid. There is a long process. It's also not mandated to check, it's completely optional. So get the lawmakers to mandate it with fines....not going to happen. There are few Americans who want these jobs, even the jobs that are advertised publicly with prevailing rates. The guys who show up are from central or south America.

[The Magistrate]

53. That Sounds Odd To Me, Ma'am

Several forms of identification are required on hiring, and the level of expertise required of a bouncer at a bar-room door ought to suffice in many instances. And it is against the law to knowing hire undocumented persons. If the penalties are not severe enough, thet ouight to be made so. It would be a very popular line for agitation, appealing to both left and right on fundamental levels....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[formernaderite]

59. I'm in construction...and what really is knowingly?

Let me tell you, regardless of whether someone can speak english, I've seen some absolutely real looking papers. You can go an accuse someone of being here illegally just because you are suspicious. Some of the numbers they use are also legitimate numbers, just not theirs. Again, you cannot check on the validity of the numbers until after you have officially hired someone...only then will Soc security deal with you. There is no mandate to do so. If you get a number that comes back flagged, you're to tell your employee that the number was incorrect and allow them to correct the mistake. Go over to the SSA.gov to read "how to verify numbers.

BTW, I am an open border person...I don't believe in the concept of an illegal human. But you have to admit the bureaucracy is hysterical.

[tandoori]

48. Its one thing to issue work visa's to PhD's, another to allow illegal

immigrants who are unskilled and therefore can not work at a skilled
job earning a living wage and then become a burden on the society. The
working & tax paying folks foot the bill for their hospitalization,
education of their children and welfare checks.

[dolstein]

12. Sadly, yes -- and so are Republicans

It's embarrassing, but yes, liberal Democrats refuse to condemn illegal immigration for fear of appearing racist and/or elitist. Apparently, being of Hispanic origin or low socio-economic status absolves you of any personal responsibility to comply with U.S. immigration laws.

Conservative Democrats refuse to comdemn illegal immigration for fear of offending businesses that thrive as a result of the depressed wages that result from a large influx of illegal immigrants.

Personally, I've always believed that laws are supposed to be obeyed. But I appear to be in the minority around here.

[sepia_steel]

46. I'm with you dolstein nt

[rniel]

15. I don't think about it anymore

There are 100 things more important at this point. Which is worse $25 dollar an hour jobs getting sent away to India. Or illegal aliens working field jobs for $1 an hour.

It's only an issue because they own the media and decide what the issues are. That's why get get stupid crap like Gay Marriage. And that's the hot button issue. That was an issue only because Karl Rove wanted it.

[Der Blaue Engel]

19. "stupid crap like Gay Marriage"

Are you saying that "gay" marriage is stupid crap or that whipping homophobes into a frenzy that makes them turn out in droves to vote to discriminate against anyone who's different from them is crap?

[rniel]

30. I support gay marriage

Letting people join together in marriage is a good thing for all of society to me, but when the 2nd depression has came there's no more jobs left and thousands of people are dying in a neverending war. The government has become all powerful and are taking away my constitutional rights one by one. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. Gay marriage is something I'm not that worried about.

[bluedawg12]

32. I am not worried about gay "marriage"

I am worried about anti-gay hate speech, restiction of work and living in certain places- like south of Indianapolis.

However, the neo cons did the same thing, former leftists, former socialists, they abandoned their social consciusness in favor of power, war and money.

Where do we draw the line?

Sure survival comes first, but after that, do we drop issues like the environement? Racial and class discrimination?

Why not unite people who espouse these issues?

As far as gay marriage, I think a lot of that was drummed up by the radicalright- gays wanted fairness and rights and benefits, health care, hopsital visitation, inheritance of property between partners,- but because we let the radicalright fundys define us, it now seems to be about some frivolous shit like a wedding cake and a reception. it is not.

read this hate mongering shit from Michigan. Notice how they attack working men and women- in their jobs- if they are homosexual.

http://www.afamichigan.org/category/homosexualagenda/

>LANSING — A statewide family values group Saturday praised Attorney General Mike Cox’s decision to appeal a circuit court ruling that a voter-approved Marriage Protection Amendment to Michigan’s state constitution does not prevent state and local governments from forcing taxpayers to pay for providing spousal benefits to the partners of public employees involved in homosexual relationships.<


>Judge Says Parent’s Expressing Concern About Homosexual Teacher Not A Reason To Deny Student Reenrollment
September 19, 2005

Genesee Teacher Among Those Nabbed in “Gay” Sex Sting?<

[dkofos]

17. If we had laws to punish the people hiring the illegals

we would not have a problem with illegal immigration.

[AllegroRondo]

21. we do have laws -they are just rarely enforced

[dkofos]

22. Do we have laws that would put the CEO of a company

in prison for having illegals working for his company?

[AllegroRondo]

24. Prison, I dont think so. Just heavy fines.

but Im no expert in the area.

[LSdemocrat]

18. I have nothing against people who are here now

The problem isn't illegal immigration. The problem is that our legal immigration system is completely broken and outdated. No one wants to come here illegally, but in many places from where illegal immigrants come from it is almost impossible to get an immigration visa.

The vast numbers of illegal immigrants here (and still coming in) shows that our country can handle large immigration, and our legal immigration system should be vastly expanded and simplified, so that legal immigration becomes a real option for those who would otherwise come in illegally.

[Telly Savalas]

44. Ding. Ding. Ding. We have a winner.

Great post.

[cranston36]

20. Take a look at the people he appointed to office in Washington DC.

During the time that George Bush was Governor of Texas 5 million illegal aliens entered the country in Texas alone.

Take a look at the people he appointed to office in Washington DC.

[bluedawg12]

27. Immigration must be regulated. It has always been

regulated.

We can't go and settle in Mexico or Canada at will and demand full rights and benefits.

This is a strange debate that confuses welcoming immigrants with anyone crosing our border and claiming rights and benefits.

We are in the business of having a secure nation, of providing jobs and education and health care to our own citizens.

the number of illegal aliens crossing our borders annualy is very high and a local problem for southern states bordering on Mexico.

[blondeatlast]

28. I don't think there is a "favor/oppose" answer to this question.

I think on the Left side, we do see far less of the racism so much a part of the issue (I don't discount that it still exists). On our side, it's an abiding belief in the Law to create a decent way of life. You hear far, far more discussion about punishing those who exploit the border-crossers on the Left than you do on the Right, where it barely raises an eyebrow or a voice. Even the "law and order" LW opponent is often conflicted.

Those LW who have little or no problenm with border crossing believe in the power of opportunity to make all of our lives better. We also struggle with the legal issue for much the same reasons the law and order faction do--stop the exploitation at the top and we can stop the problem without making those seeking opportunity the "bad guys."

I live in a border state and have seen nearly every facet of the issue in everyday life.

[rniel]

29. Another thing i think

A lot of corporate agribusiness wants to have cheap illegal labor to exploit. They don't want to put an end to it.

[dolstein]

31. "People who work hard and PLAY BY THE RULES"

Clinton got it right -- the Democratic Party ought to support people who work had and play by the rules. Illegal immigrants may work hard, but they don't play by the rules. I don't understand why so many DU'ers choose to ignore this.

[BlueCaliDem]

35. As long as you have employers "not playing by the rules"...

...you can't, in all honesty, expect undocumented workers who need the dollars for their families, to.

Dry up the demand, and the supply will disappear also, is what I believe.

This problem can only be resolved by working BOTH sides of the divide, otherwise nothing's ever gonna change.

[sepia_steel]

47. TWO things have to happen

1. STOP LETTING THEM IN. Duh.

2. ENFORCE EQUAL PAY. Again, duh.

This is one of those 'we need to pay attention to the problems we have HERE' kind of issues. It's a big one. Illegal immigration hurts us in a lot of ways.

[BlueCaliDem]

51. Both Are Sound Solutions...And Both Are Unrealistic as well...

You contend that:

1. (We) STOP LETTING THEM IN. That's a given. But how realistic is this solution in practice? Just how successful has that solution been so far?

In theory, what you say is absolutely true, but in practice, the undermanned border patrol guard units can keep some of them out, but not all of them--NOT when they have their sights on dollars and desperate to get as much as they can as goal!

It's like trying to mop with the faucet wide open, as we've clearly seen.

2. ENFORCE EQUAL PAY. In a country based in capitalism, do you really think this is feasible? When we have unscrupulous employers stingy enough to save on workman's comp, and other taxes they have to normally pay, and in a country where it's still the "employment at will" norm, how successful can the above prove to fight undocumented immigrants from coming in?

I still believe that in order to successfully keep them in their own country, we need to take away the incentive they have for coming here in the first place: Jobs and dollars.

We simultaneously need to severely punish those Scrooges with hefty fines and even jail time, who hire undocumented workers, and get rid of the incentive for the undocumented immigrants who only wanna come to the States for jobs. (This is the least popular with elected officials caught between a rock--American businesses and corps that aren't as opposed to undocumented workers as they'd like us to believe--and a hard place--doing what's right by law, human rights, and by the American people)

As long as they know there'll always be people willing to hire them for a pittance (to them, even a pittance is better than nothing!) and as long as there are people who can get away with hiring undocumented immigrants without much meaningful and serious legal recourse, the problem's never gonna go away.

Eliminate their reasons, and you'll see, that our underpaid, undermanned border patrol will be able to do their jobs more efficiently.

Americans need to wake-up and focus on the cause of the problem, not the symptoms of it, imo.

[Telly Savalas]

41. Gays don't play by the rules when they violate sodomy laws.

Are you against them?

[bluedawg12]

54. I oppose laws that dictate who consenting adults can or cannot

have sex with.

When consenting adults have sex it's their business and if it violates a law, then, the law is immoral and violates human right to privacy and happiness and must be changed.

However, nations can and must legislate laws about entry through it's borders borders by non- citizens.

[Telly Savalas]

55. That's beside the point.

The previous poster is arguing that if something is the law, we should enforce it. I'm merely pointing out that some laws are pretty damn stupid, and rather than spouting off bullshit Lou Dobbs talking points about law and order, perhaps we should fix the laws.

[bluedawg12]

56. I agree, laws should reflect society and be ethical

on immigration laws should reflect that.

[QC]

33. Apparently so, if DU is any indication. n/t

[bluedawg12]

34. Cheap foreign labor, with out benefits, rights

this is the kinda crap that unions, when they were strong, would have railed against.

Bringing in undocumented workers, for pennies on the dollar, lowering the wages and the standard of living for American workers.

Let's go to Mehico and see if Vincente Faux gives us workers comp and pensions.

[MrSlayer]

36. No. I consider myself a staunch conservative on the issue.

All illegals out now and close the damn borders.

[barb162]

37. Totally against illegal immigration

all would-be immigrants should apply legally

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

38. It might help to make hiring illegals a major crime, and to go

after those who break that law.

You know, the hypocrites who exploit them with one side of forked tongue, and denounce and denigrate them with the other.

[OzarkDem]

43. No, not at all

[sepia_steel]

45. Actually

The issue of illegal immigration is the only one I can actually agree with Repubs on. Not that I think we ought to be shooting them like stray cats like some of the extremies seem to believe.

I am quite sick to death of nothing be done about it.

[formernaderite]

49. No such thing as an illegal human being...

let's open the borders NOW!
Ask everyone for their identification as they cross, but let them in. It is heartbreaking to me how hard these folks work with no legal protection. Obviously there is work for them. I know plenty of contractors that can't hire Americans, and they aren't paying them below wage rates. They advertise their rates and alot of guys with fake IDs show up. No white guys, no black guys....just central and south Americans.

[RebelOne]

52. My only comment is: No Way!!!!

[leesa]

57. Not necessarily. They just think there is a better way to stop it than

patrolling the border and punishing the illegal immigrants. Punish the corporations that hire them...no jobs, no illegal immigrant problem.

[sadiesworld]

61. No.

The polls (that you can find) indicate that the vast majority of US ciizens are opposed to illegal immigration.

But it makes no difference--it's more lucrative to corporations to accuse people of being rascists and xenophobes.