Don't be overly-sensitive and make unrealistic demands of the Democrats.

[LoZoccolo]

What you think is a deep offense on their part might be no big deal, and when you choose to let the Republicans win because the Democrats don't do exactly what you want, well, you're doing even worse. Just because Bill Clinton or Harry Reid don't jump up and down and shout like the guy from Rage Against The Machine doesn't mean they are spineless. And putting people on ignore for explaining why this is so might be burning a bridge back to common sense.

Oh, and by the way...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4556593

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4558892

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4487801

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=134233

Woo-ha! :bounce:

[bluestateguy]

1. Melodybe got tombstoned?

Anyone know why?

[Hello_Kitty]

4. No way!

I thought she was really cool.

[LoZoccolo]

6. Really?

See, I'm a person who thinks that anyone can say "fuck you" and "go to hell" and tell people they're mad at someone. Plus I'm a person that thinks you shouldn't post about the same thing twice in the same day, or start a thread asking people to nominate another one you've written for the greatest page and hang out here trying to get people to vote it up.

[LittleClarkie]

21. So did TruthIsAll

I wonder what he did as well.

[wisteria]

2. I hope the author of the posts noted above gets the message

and knocks off the Dem attacks. I also hope others see themselves in these nasty posts and clean up their act. (I can hope, can't I)?

[LoZoccolo]

3. I can't be sure if they had gotten the message or not.

But I do know that the Dem attacks will stop! :toast:

[wisteria]

5. Good! n/t

[Savannah Progressive]

7. Perhaps you will forgive this question

However, I wonder, what is the difference between a Republican and a Democrat who votes with the Republicans? Perhaps you can explain the difference between Zell Miller and Bill Frist? How about the difference between Bill Nelson and Trent Lott? If they vote the same, on the same issues, on the same bills, what is the difference?

If our idealism is on issues, a womans right to choose for example, does it matter if the Politician voting to take away those rights is a Democrat or Republican? Does it matter if it's the Democrats or Republicans who voted for the PATRIOT ACT? Our rights are still history, and our rights and individual liberties are what we are supposed to believe in as Democrats aren't we?

Perhaps it makes you feel better if it's Democrats voting to take your rights away, however that isn't much of a consolation when the Feds are executing a no notice secret warrant. Or investigating your book purchases or borrowing from a library. Perhaps it gives you a certain satisfaction when Democrats vote to reduce tax rates on the Rich while increasing the taxes on the Poor.

I for one join with those who denounce those actions, and demand accountability from our elected leaders. I am tired of choosing the lesser of two evils, knowing I am still choosing evil. I like all of you want, demand equal rights for all, black, white, gay lesbian or whatever. I demand the civil rights that are the Constitutional guarantee for all, even those held at the Guantanamo Base Torture facility.

Friends, it doesn't matter what letter they have after their name, if they are taking our rights and liberties. I don't want the Democrats using the Constitution for Toilet Paper any more than I want the Republicans.

[LoZoccolo]

9. Hillary gets accused of being no different than a Republican as well.

Are you sick of it? I sure am. Do you wish people would show at least some credibility and not make such an careless accusation? Maybe at least do some homework about how they vote beyond just a few bills? OK then, do the same.

If our idealism is on issues, a womans right to choose for example, does it matter if the Politician voting to take away those rights is a Democrat or Republican? Does it matter if it's the Democrats or Republicans who voted for the PATRIOT ACT?

Yes. Now figure out why I said "yes". It isn't hard.

I am tired of choosing the lesser of two evils, knowing I am still choosing evil.

Ask the Katrina victims how much they like Nader and all the people who claimed they didn't want to vote for the lesser of two evils when they helped Bush* get elected through a third party. Or the families of soldiers who died in Iraq. Tell 'em how "tired" you are.

[firefox]

12. It raises the question

What do you think of the people that stayed home on November 2? What do you think of the people that do not even register?

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. After readying all I could on the 2000 COUP

lets use the correct language, whether Nader existed or not, Bush was gonna "win." This was a CIA operation, not unlike many they have mounted in Latin America

You should turn your attention to the felonious five, who should have NEVER gotten involved in the case.

It is just that Nader provides you a nice shinny bauble to avoid the real issue, the elephant in the room, the bush crime family was going to take power come hell or high water, and had the skids greased for that one.

[Savannah Progressive]

17. A Democratic Voting Record

Senator Bill Nelson, a Democrat from Florida, voted to give Federal Protection to Gun Manufacturers from Civil Suit. So while Colt is making M-16's for every gang banger in the street, and every lunatic KKK Neandrathol, you can't sue Colt for what these lunatics do with the guns.

Senator Nelson apparently felt that the Gun industry deserved protection, despite the roughly 20,000 gun deaths in this nation every year. The good news is that he has the symbol of the Democratic Party after his name. So that of course makes his actions good and decent and wonderful for all.

In all 65 Senators voted to pass this bill, that means that even with the majority of Repugnicans, ten Senators from the Democratic Party, our party, voted for it.

How about CAFTA, where it passed with 54 votes. When you consider that the Democratic Party provided the votes necessicary to pass the bill to send our jobs, the jobs of average Americans overseas, then I have to wonder if the out of work people feel any better knowing it was the Democratic Party that helped put them on Unemployment?

Hundreds of Thousands out of work, millions of families and victims of gun violence with no ability to seek justice in our court system, and the Democratic Party helped do this to them. Ten Democrats voted for it, more than enough to pass it. More than enough to put average working people out of a job.

That is the Principals we say we stand for, the Principals we use to bludgeon the Repugniks. Either we care about the environment, or we don't. Either we stand for womans rights, or we don't. Either we are opposed to machineguns in the hands lunatics, or we aren't.

Again I ask, are any of these people less dead, less homeless, or less jobless because Democrats had the power? The Democratic Party had the power, to vote against these travesties. To stop one, and slow another. Yet, we abdicated that power, and responsibility, and the people suffer because of it. How is that less evil than a wholly Republican Congress? I can't see the difference. I can't see the benefit of blindly supporting those who purport to back us, when their every action is one of betrayal. With every vote, they betray our ideals, our principals. With every back room deal, where they go along with DeLay, Frist, Lott, and the rest of the corrupt bastards in Washington, they betray US, the People.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. May I add to your list?

Banrupcy Bill

Energy bill

USPA

the renewal of the USPA

need I go on?

[Carla in Ca]

8. I don't know what is going on

but I don't like the in-fighting here lately. This is a website for Dems. This is where we come to unite.

Here is an example of others calling for a third party. One of the posts has a Green Party emblem. What purpose does it serve?

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2132742>

Thanks for posting this, LoZoccolo. It needed to be said.
BTW, here is a thread I started today. Some others have posted this picture of President Clinton as well today and I love them for it.

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2135131&mesg_id=2135131>

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Okl Carla thanks for the link

here is a clue, from the huge clue department

There is this thing you folks are forgetting CALLED United States HISTORY... many have been trying to point to the several elephants in the room. One of them is that the base is NOT secured... why? the base is quite shall we say unhappy with the actions of members of the Democratic Leadership Council, who have been engaging in a nice war against progresives inside the party. The last barrage came from Mr Shummer, who wittingly or unwittingly said that they will mot listen to the left of the party on C-SPAN. Now you may not now or realize this, but they are trying to drive many progresives out. In the end they may succeed shooting themsevles in the foot.

Now the history of this country is quite clear and the parallels between modern day DLC (Did not say DNC, just DLC) and RNC are not that disimilar with the Guilded Age and many people are fed up... for the record the Dems would not run FDR today... but TR is the model of Democrat they like

Second elephant in the room: If you run like a Republican Lite and only care about money and triangulation you don't look that diferent from ... your neighborhood republican to Joe Six Pack, remember him? He is the one you must sway and faux populist talk from the Pugs have gotten joe to repeatedly vote for them. This criticsm is not only mine, but in places like What's the Matter wiht Kansas. I am sure you think the author also hates the Dems right... right.

Third, every time we try to discuss what is wrong with the party, you call it bashing. I call it criticism that needs to happen. I vote for my country, not my party... you might want to try that someday, even if I have done solid democratic slates, but that may soon change. I know hard to believe but some of us look at the voting records of candidates and due to those voting records, there are some candidates we can no longer vote for, even if they have a D behind their names. Call us silly, but progressives make a stand...

Now what was the lesson of history? You know the populist party? You read the whole statement didn't you? Did they remain as an independent party? No, they were absorbed by 1900 by the Dems, their legacy IS the New Deal... and it took the formation of that party to wake the dems up, who were in bed with the corporations as well.

Now if the DLC stops its talk about getting rid of the fringe (aka progresivse) amybe progressives will stop looking for alternatives.

That mirror pointing at you may reflect something you don't want to see... but that reflection is important

All that said, we also have another problem: read Diebold, which did not exist in 1776, or 1900 for that matter. Oh the machine did exist, but nothing like a GEMS open database.

[AntiCoup2K4]

14. I don't think the DLC would have run Teddy Roosevelt either.

Teddy was all for busting up corporations that got too big. The reason that TimeWarnerAOLNetscapeCNN exists today is because the DLC and the Republicans deregulated the Telecommunications industry in 1996.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. I use TR as an example

but you are right, wrong example... but Teddy would be right at home with us, who want to break them up... oh brother...

[Gnostic]

18. Come to unite

Theoretical civilian citizen Democrats are a whole different animal and beast from those who also label themselves as such and are in power.

I understand the basic premise of unity you put forth, that there is strength in numbers and so what if the Dems don't do everything we desire. I agree wholly.

But this is a different time and place in our country. Many of "us" are getting quite sick and tired of the Dems pandering to the cabal of thieves running the show in DC. Tired of the pro-war dems for example. Tired of the dems who pay lip service to or try and be "diplomatic" with those clowns. The ones who, like Clinton, seem for all intense purposes to be quasi-republocrats in drag who can't seem to stand up to them squarely and righteously and declare once and for all that the American people have had ENOUGH.

And that is why, though I know I will always take some heat for it, refer often to the "two-party fraud system" we have entrenched in place today.

Dems have to be held accountable for their votes and actions, for their defense of the constitution and the wish of the people. If they do not, it is high time for a third party to step in and gain popular support. I am very sorry to say.

[Carla in Ca]

22. In one post I was accused of bashing.

I didn't say that, I said in-fighting. And although I appreciate the respectful tone of your post, unlike others, I cannot agree with the idea that a third party is necessary. I think the country is divided enough.
If DU is going to be party to such recruitment, I want no part of it.
I understand you reasoning, and also agree with some of what you say so we will agree to disagree.

[AtomicKitten]

10. Well, I still love Bill Clinton.

[ladylibertee]

16. WOW, I sure needed you last night.Thank you so much for confronting

this "freeper-like" garbage.I am glad you did it.I think EVERYONE should heed your message

"Don't be overly-sensitive and make unrealistic demands of the Democrats."

:toast:

[cloudythescribbler]

20. what if you have a pseudo-populist but underground privileged elite who ..

Think of things like eggplant tennis-anyone, and engineered hypersensitivity and excommunication, all backed by the most brutal of coercive if veiled political machines as nothing more than having a naughty blow job or two?

After all, where do the limits of 'unreasonableness' of demands stop? When we insist on real Jeffersonian politics and not deconstructions thereof?

The problem of imbalance in America is not in general that progressives demand too much in general of politics, or that human rights and small d democracy get out of hand, but that the elite have gotten completely out of hand. They have always hated any sign of genuine freedom of expression (regarding it as prurient and disgusting, like kiddy porn, to expose the elite) but have always pushed for and in America largely succeeded at keeping democracy as merely a veneer. That goes for the Clinton (Bill the Shill who connived successfully at the Repuglican Congress elected in 94) and his Al From type wiggletoesian (as I call them) friends.

That said, the Repugs are worse, but these are the people helping them get in. As LaFollette said, machine politics is always bipartisan.

I think it would be a good idea for a progressive -- an authentic progressive (liberal) like Robt Kennedy Jr. or Jose Serrano or Adam Clayton Powell IV to run against Hillary in the primary. But the politicians don't want to buck both the Democratic party and "the class", and then you have outsiders who are professional losers (Mark Green) or charlatans who do even worse (like Al Sharpton). We need a strong peace candidate in the Democratic Primaries in NY in 2006. And if the mainstream of the Dems don't like it, good! At least it will be clear that Hillary never did and never will truly represent the progressive wing of the Democratic Party authentically.

[Moderator]

23. Locking

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