Koppel on now, suggesting that the Dem "establishment" has seized control

[Dover]

and taken it away from outsider Dean. He was saying that the insiders have worked really hard to bump Dean out and now are piling onto the Kerry bandwagon and expect to ride it to the end.

I hadn't heard the media folks talk about Kerry as the establishment before....outloud.

[girl gone mad]

1. Koppel would know.

Glad someone in the media is saying it, but is it too late now?

[IndianaGreen]

4. Koppel is telling the truth, the DLC is winning!

And Al From got his candidate!

[Dr Fate]

11. Did Koppel tell the truth about faked WMD evidence, before the war?

Ah- but now he is the crusading truthteller since he is going after powerful Democrats...

[Uzybone]

16. LOL

well said.

[IndianaGreen]

19. "going after powerful Democrats..."?

You couldn't be speaking of Kerry since he is a wimp and a Bush enabler when he cowardly voted for PATRIOT and for the war.

[sangh0]

36. You can't do any better than name-calling

Calling Kerry a "wimp" is not an argument. It's the same sort of childish name-calling the Repukes engage in.

[Dr Fate]

70. "Establishment" ="powerful". Ted implied "powerful", not me.

But you got to smear a Democrat anyway, even if you could not actually counter my statement- and thats what counts!!!!

[Printer70]

24. Al From and the Establishment prevailed

Progressives once more were told how much their vote means to the Party. It's never been more clear that there are a set of puppet masters who puppeteer both parties. "People Power" couldn't match up to the veritable armada of DLC/corporate money, opposition research, and media contacts.

[Snivi Yllom]

49. Terry MacAuliffe is smiling somewhere today

:(

[LibDemAlways]

5. Not too late.

This thing is just getting started. California doesn't weigh in until March 3rd and Clark is very popular here. Kerry's bandwagon is going to lose some steam starting next week - despite what the media whores would have us believe.

[freetempe]

23. WOW! He actually said that?

Guess he didn't get the memo not to talk about how party insiders and the whore media are manipulating the whole process until after Kerry is nominated.

[Leilani]

2. Interesting

Someone in the media is talking about this.

[Skwmom]

3. The establishment is stupid.

If they make the ticket pro-war, inside the belt-way politicians who failed to stand up to Bush they will lose. Based on their track record to date I really think the party needs some new strategists.

[not systems]

6. That how I see it.

Support Dean and Clark for a democratic renewal.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

7. I wonder how many votes the "establishment" gets to cast?

What percentage of their precints is reporting?

[IndianaGreen]

9. How could they lose?

No matter who wins in November, the man taking the oath of office in January is going to be a Skull & Bones cult member.

[sangh0]

37. Why won't you answer the question, IC?

Could it be the answer to the question is "none"?

[On the Road]

10. How Many Votes Does "Money" Cast?

and yet it decides most elections.

Actually, the "establishment" has quite a few votes at the convention in the form of superdelegates.

[sangh0]

38. Untrue

Clinton was outspent by the Repukes, and he won twice. Gore was outspent by Bush*, and Gore also won.

[cprise]

8. Bandwagon to be torpedoed by Gulf War I issue

Dean and Clark should nail Kerry on this before Bush nails the Democrats (and the world).

[dolstein]

12. Newsflash: The establishment was backing Dean only a week ago

Dean still has more superdelegates than anyone. And he had all the big name endorsements.

[cprise]

17. Baloney

Al Gore crossed the line into populism in 2000, and the party power-brokers abandoned him.

He has been on the outside ever since, in case you didn't notice.

The rest can be chalked up to persuasion: Dean attacked corrupt Washington insiders, and the more sane Democrats sided with him.

[sangh0]

42. I guess those super-delegates Dean has amassed

are not "Washington insiders"

[mmonk]

13. They have temporarily

[flaminbats]

14. I think he should be on Crossfire..

and on the right is Ted Koppel and Ed Koch.

[Abigail147]

65. Bite me Carville and Begala.

Carville neutered by Maitlin and domesticity and Begala pretty sure he is a kingmaker. Oh wait, who is the liberal viewpoint on Capital Report --Larry something? All Demo establishment reps openly pulling for Kerry and openly disdainful of Dean.

[DenverDem]

15. Kucinich is the only Real Democrat in this race.

You are kidding yourselves about the other guys being very far from the DLC neo liberal corporate globalist right of center point.

Granted any Democrat will be better than the bull goose looney neo con conquer the world's oil fields so our cronies can wring the last penny of profit from a dying petro culture BFEE crowd, but it will be only a brief respite before living in denial about Peak Oil will wipe out all but the super rich.

Only Kucinich has the guts to tell the truth, its just that everyone is too terrified to hear it. If we had listened to Carter 30 years ago and got serious about sustainable energy then, we might have had a chance, but we were to scared, greedy and lazy to deal with it then and nothing has changed in the national character since, except that we are even more greedy and lazy. So we live in denial and play the little politico game, thinking that someone as deep inside as Kerry, Clark, Edwards or even Dean will create adequately substantive change.

Smell the coffee. . .

<http://www.peakoil.net/>

[Bucky]

18. Except for Clark, Dean, Kerry, Edwards, & Sharpton. They're real Dems, too

Oh, and Lieberman. He's also a real Democrat.

By the way, I love the smell of coffee.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DenverDem]

46. Small tent Democrat, eh,

so explain to me how exporting all the jobs in America and destroying the world economy for the profit of global corporations is a Democrat position.

Sustainable economy is a "small hole"?!?! Neo liberalism is a Democrat Party plank?

My position is that until we as Americans start honestly assessing the global economy and our impact on it and the impending catastrophic Energy Crash and our impact on it, we are just playing semantic games and living in denial about reality.

If that position is insulting to Democrats then I have severely misjudged the Democrat Party. It is you, sir, who have a limited view of this forum.

[The Magistrate]

47. The Problem With Your Thesis, Sir, Is Simple

Rep. Kucinich received about one percent of the vote in the primary. This would seem to indicate that ninety-nine percent of Democratic voters in New Hampshire are not real Democrats, were your view to be taken seriously. Rep. Kucinich has been roundly rejected by the rank and file of the Democratic Party as a candidate for President; he would fare as poorly, if not worse, in the general election.

[DenverDem]

50. My point, exactly, "electability" is king.

the issues have been framed by the media and right of centrists to say that sustainable economic policies are "unelectable" positions. We have demonized reality based economic discourse and live in denial about the realities we are creating with globalism, because they would require us to seriously asses our urealistically comfortable lifestyles. Until we have the guts to face reality we are "the problem" ongoing.

[sangh0]

53. So potential DK supporters are swayed by the electability argument?

If these people are fooled by the media on economic policies, what makes you think they would be smart enough to understand DK's positions? If these people "live in denial about the realities we are creating with globalism" why would they vote for DK, a candidate that is opposed to globalism?

[DenverDem]

56. They don't even get to consider his policies

because he is marginalized by the media and other candidates and not given a realistic forum, so there is no substantive dialectic on these issues.

I wish I could continue this discussion now, but I have to catch a plane.

[sangh0]

58. Listen to yourself

Democrats "don't even get to consider" DK's policies, but DK's policies are the ones that are "real Democrat" policies.

That leads to the conclusion that most Democrats are not "real Democrats" and that DK, who represents a small minority of Democrats is the real Democrat

[The Magistrate]

59. You Speak Of Electability, Mr. Denver, As If It Were A Bad Thing

It is, of course, the essential consideration: the point of political campaigns is not to make the participants on one side feel good about themselves, but to defeat the other side, and this cannot be achieved if the candidate is a mere fringe figure, better suited to a splinter faction than a serious party.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[sangh0]

51. True, but

DK is right so DK must obviously hold the "real Democratic" position.

[DenverDem]

52. DK is the only candidate proposing substantive change

which would be an actual opposition to Republican economic policy.

[sangh0]

54. So what?

No one is disputing that here, so why bring it up? The argument made was that DK is the "real" Democrat.

[DenverDem]

55. My point being unless you propose change

you are status quo supporting Republican lite.

[sangh0]

57. Silly

In a two-party system, it's ridiculous to think of one of the parties as supporting fundamental change.

Both parties support the current system and want nothing more than to tinker with it. By calling for drastic change in the system, DK distinguishes himself from the rest of the Democratic Party because, simply put, the Democratic Party is NOT about drastic change to the system.

As I said before, your arguement is "DK is right, so therefore he's the "real" Democrat"

Nonsense.

[GreenArrow]

66. "In a two-party system, it's ridiculous

to think of one of the parties as supporting fundamental change."

So what's the point then. We're just jacking off. Money, looks, charm, venality, prevarication and viciousness rule the day, and where politics is concerned, always shall.

[DenverDem]

67. Thanx GA

you get my drift.

[Edge]

20. Kucinich, Dean, and Edwards.

n/t

[dolstein]

22. Is "Real Democrat" a code word for socialist?

NT

[DenverDem]

29. Is addressing the impending Energy Crash socialist?

Your use of the flashpoint terminology indicts your far right position.

[sangh0]

61. Actually, yes

Capitalism has no cure for the impending Energy Crash

[DenverDem]

68. So supporting capitalism is suicidal?

And that is superior to dealing with the problem?

[Blitz]

60. yup

n/t

[GreenArrow]

25. true words

which few wish to hear. No one who is not pro status quo is going to be elected.

Kucinich is the candidate most concerned with "democratic" principles as opposed to "Democratic" party principles, which at this point in time, have largely evolved into a thinly disguised corporatism. The former category is larger and considerably more all encompassing.

[NashVegas]

35. Right. So Could You Begin to Take a Guess

Why people like Carville and Begala are calling for Dean, who appears to be a strong second like Edwards, to step down from the race, but are fine with Kucinich, who's managed to draw *how many delegates*, staying in?

I'll tell you why: The DLC/DNC wants Kucinich to stay in and let his campaign people attack Dean from the left, insuring that Kerry won't have to. Because if Kerry attacks Dean from the left, he starts looking a little *different* to the moderate Dems who think he looks "more electable" than Dean, the wild-eyed liberal.

[Cheswick2.0]

64. Bingo!

But people will continue to be fooled and then wonder why we lose in November.

[Rainbows]

41. Bingo .. Right on target ... n/t

[Printer70]

21. He is right- Progressives have been sidelined by DLC/establishment

This is not a positive harbinger for the party.

[milkyway]

26. He's right. Same old crap.

[moondust]

27. It's the media that have bumped Dean.

And the Dem establishment doesn't seem to have much influence on the media whoredom.

[Dover]

28. One mustn't forget that the media is also the "establishment".

...

[Woodstock]

30. That's what it seems like to me, too

:kick:

[GreenPartyVoter]

32. Interesting

Surprised he would admit that.

[AntiCoup2K4]

33. Koppel's right for once. The DLC is a cancer on the Democratic party.

And it's about time the tumor got cut out.

[CWebster]

34. And the people can be herded into toddling along behind

everytime.

ABB! ABB! ABB!

[sangh0]

39. If the DLC is so powerful

how come they're not getting the quick primary decision they were planning on?

[kentuck]

40. Naturally, that is what they want people to think but......

The race has only started - if we look at the number of delegates needed to get the nomination. If they all drop out, then Kerry wins by default. However, I don't think that is going to happen.

[xultar]

43. I wish people would quite fiddling with this race and let the voters vote!

:nuke: :grr:

[DoNotRefill]

44. And this is a surprise because?

Well, at least we now have a three party system...

Repuke
Repuke-Lite
Democrat.

[Cheswick2.0]

48. yup

They've pulling in favors for weeks. They are going to kill us in november just like they did in 2002. They would rather lose with a coporate corrupted Democrat than win with someone like Dean.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

62. For a non-establishment candidate

Dean sure has picked up some establishment endorsements, including not only Al Gore, but also Tom Harkin, Lowell Weicker, Bill Bradley, Ann Richards, the late Senator Paul Simon, and more Housecritters and local officials than I care to count.

You don't get superdelegates if no one in the the establishment likes you. In fact, given that Dean has the lead in delegates, despite coming in 3rd in Iowa and 2nd in New Hampshire, the establishment seems to like Dean better than the voters do.

Edited for sentence structure

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

63. Koppel's right. Chalk another one up for the appeasement wing.

Too bad.

[genius]

69. Bush/Rove/Koppel want Dean to win

The Bush news media will lie about everything.

[carpetbagger]

71. Gore, Harkin, Bradley, Cummings...

They've worked really hard to bump Dean.